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On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
Good lord.
All is fine eh?
Give me one example of a common Z "mistake" that is as game changing as leaving your camera off your marine group for even less than second????? Everybody knows that the slightest Terran mistake in TvZ is INSTANT GG, and there are plenty of games to prove it. The last time Z even had a close resemblance to this much of game changing mistake was when they made mutas, but that is obviously out the window now. You use a 3 prong drop as an example of causing you to "have a hard time." but compare how much effort that is on the Terran side(3 battles at once all with different rallys and timings) to the Z side where you hit one(yes one!) F button. So give me an example please.
Your part on the queens is absolutely fucking retarted, you pay for those queens???? o rly?!?!? The whole fucking point of the Z race is that it has to always chose between drones and units to make it to late game safely. Queens do not cost larva(are you sure you still really "pay" for queens?) and since they have been buffed they now become the perfect medium for Z to literally break there races own weakness by getting units without losing drones. So trying to say queens are not the issue is quite the fail, considering how key they are to the whole problem at hand.
Of course you dont "want to discuss the end game at large" because what the hell is a Z to say about Terrans late game. You know its broken once you get the BL/infestor. End of discussion.
Basically you just ignored all of the facts about TvZ and said "Well us Zergs try to damnit!!"
Not a good reply.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Why don't you wait longer than 2 hours until making this thread?
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Calgary25981 Posts
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On December 24 2012 01:35 Chill wrote:
Merry Christmas.
Inb4 it's still not enough, and it's merely something to hopefully keep people happy until HotS.
EDIT: Which is exactly what it's going to be, mind you.
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Dustin announced a new nerf for infestor.
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I am fairly sure that the 3-OC Hellion-Banshee existed even before the queen buff, it is a safe way to go for a quick 3rd and able to defend a roach ling baneling all in.
Totally disagree with there is no timing attack in TvZ.
There are tonnes of different game ending mistakes that both races have.
A miss-ed queen block against bfhellions
A miss-ed drop sniped off important tech
Engaging at poor position
Clumped up muta against thors
Walked infestors too far up to fungal the bio and got killed by tank vollies
I also disagree compared infestors to raven, think they are medivac, a CORE unit in your marine composition.
Why would you compare them to ravens?
Saying ghost serves no purpose in terran army is weird, considering if infestors are emp-ed, terran army are much stronger than pure lings.
I am not sure about the attention as resources as well.
Ling blocking expo is as simple as zerg checking if terran is trying to bunker rush.
Ling runbys and infestors burrow harass rarely occur in high level games, you can use building placement against ling runbys (and actually has a chance to trap all the lings) and terran always have missile turrets next to the natural/third bunker.
The way you describe infestor harass is a bit like how zerg tries to deal with banshee harass. needs to morph overseer/make spores, move away drones (and rerallying), use appropriate number of queens to defend.
Move spore if banshee hitting from outside cloak range.
Or, Ghost with nuke.
The reason why Zerg is winning so comfortably is because Terran isn't able to kill off infestors/burn off the energy well enough and so the zerg can always defend that pre hive timings and make it to bl infestors ball.
nowadays I tend to think one of the better solution is just to have a smaller map
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I think the two logical conclusions to draw given the arguments you made would be to:
a) remove infestor completely (or nerf it to the point it only has a very specific use)
b) revert queen buff to allow for reactor hellion openings to contain zerg to two bases and force lings/spines
either of these would help shift zerg back towards muta ling bling, which regardless of balance, is so much more fun and exciting to watch and play than infestorturtletohive. I wouldn't even mind a baneling buff so long as zerg's couldn't make infestors :D
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I feel like a calldown of a Repair Drone as an ability for a Raven would be a nice skill.
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On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate
This is so hypocritical and untrue. Terrans did it every game because zerg opened the same every game too and hellions happened to be very good against that opener.
If zergs weren't so greedy/stubborn and just built a couple of roaches to defend against the hellions instead of building nothing but drones and then crying when they lost to actual fighting units then they would have been just fine.
IMO something that should be tried is removing the root effect from fungle and giving it a corruption effect (as well as its damage).
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The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
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On December 24 2012 02:55 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate This is so hypocritical and untrue. Terrans did it every game because zerg opened the same every game too and hellions happened to be very good against that opener. If zergs weren't so greedy/stubborn and just built a couple of roaches to defend against the hellions instead of building nothing but drones and then crying when they lost to actual fighting units then they would have been just fine.
You do realise WHY zergs didn't do that, right? It's actually a massive investment in larva, minerals and gas.
150+1 drone for the roach warren, 75 gas and 225 minerals for the roaches, plus 6 supply (1 overlord) and 3 larva.
That's a hell of a lot for defending againt hellions, and even then it's not particularly guaranteed, and terrans can just stop making hellions and make extra CCs etc instead, like they often do anyway, and then it would swing the other way and give the T a massive midgame window for attacking.
The point of hellions is to harm the zerg economy. By making roaches, that's harming the economy anyway. Your "solution" is to say "no matter what, hellions are free damage to economey either by killing drones, or by harming the economy by forcing a specific type of defense which then ends up being useless as the game goes on and just exists to set back the zerg economy".
While it would stop the damage done by hellions, potentially, that damage would be done by making the roaches in the first place, meaning you gain nothing at all, and the mere existence of hellions becomes the strength.
That's not to say the buff to queens was necessary, just that the roach solution isn't a solution to the problem of early game hellions.
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Corvid reactor increases raven starting energy to 100.
a) Raven more accessible lategame, 2 auto-turrets, 1 PDD upon raven production. Raven is immediately useful and no longer a paper weight
b) Raven energy wait-time for seeker missile now is 25 energy, down from 50. This brings it in line with every other caster in the game. Cutting the wait time by 50% to get a seeker missile makes a world of difference.
If you want the most analogous unit comparison, look at the templar. It starts with 50 energy. What if psi storm costed 100 energy. Suddenly the templar goes from being a good unit, to being a gamble. You don't know if it will pay itself off with such a long wait time for a psi storm, and it will in fact pay itself off much less often.
My change allows the raven to pay itself off more often in more situations.
c) Provides a more accessible counter to tempests in HOTS. PDD upon raven being produced is huge. It's immediately useful vs higher tiered units. Also vs the new roach/hydra/viper high tempo style, now a raven is an option because once again, like a templar, it will be able to pay itself off more often with either a seeker after a 25 energy wait time, or from having things immediately available upon production.
d) Doesn't imbalance the unit, the unit remains exactly the same, it simply is made more accessible. This is huge. The raven stays the exact same tried and tested unit, but the limiting factor of balance here is corvid reactor research. This often does not come early on in a game because resources cannot be allocated to it, and getting a tech labbed starport is a hindrance as well. It limits raven strength to a later stage in the game, while making them more accessible.
The interesting part is, the raven is already well designed imo in the seeker, auto-turrets, PDD. It's only the accessibility of the unit that is terrible right now.
Why do I post about this...again? Because the change above pin points the issue of the raven, which is the energy wait-time factor and accessibility, rather than doing changes else where in the game, or doing unnecessary overhauls to the design of the unit.
It's a change that can be independent of everything else in the game, and literally only affects the raven as a unit while not messing with any other variables that would tip balance anywhere else. It's also one that you can consider has already been tried and tested with the templar as described above, and if you want to take it a step further, you can look at the ghost which mimics the change I talk about.
The ghost has the mobius reactor upgrade, increasing ghost starting energy to 75, which means a ghost can immediately EMP upon production. This makes the ghost an immediately useful unit for Terran to make against Protoss, because you know you are not gambling and will have the energy for the EMP to make the ghost pay itself off.
The drawback of course is the travel time, which is why the ghost gets this advantage over the templar because the templar can be warped in anywhere on the map where there is pylon power.
The point being, my change imitates the ghost mobius reactor upgrade which has also shown to be tried and tested.
So yeah...basically if you held a gun to my head, and said, "are you willing to make this change, and risk throwing off the balance of the game?" I would comfortably and confidently bet my life that this is a good change to the game, that by the way, is also easily tweaked in the future by changing the price/cost/build time of the corvid reactor upgrade.
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On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
You're defending zerg and have a quote about making zerg units yourself and then claim to have success with terran against zerg. Seems fishy to me...
Anyway I haven't played sc2 in a while now due to how retarded terran is to play these days, but from what I can remember you can only realistically get medivacs out on the field at around 10-11 minutes. And by that point queens are going to be the least of your worries. So your argument is pretty pointless lol.
On December 24 2012 03:02 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 02:55 ArchAngelSC wrote:On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate This is so hypocritical and untrue. Terrans did it every game because zerg opened the same every game too and hellions happened to be very good against that opener. If zergs weren't so greedy/stubborn and just built a couple of roaches to defend against the hellions instead of building nothing but drones and then crying when they lost to actual fighting units then they would have been just fine. You do realise WHY zergs didn't do that, right? It's actually a massive investment in larva, minerals and gas. 150+1 drone for the roach warren, 75 gas and 225 minerals for the roaches, plus 6 supply (1 overlord) and 3 larva. That's a hell of a lot for defending againt hellions, and even then it's not particularly guaranteed, and terrans can just stop making hellions and make extra CCs etc instead, like they often do anyway, and then it would swing the other way and give the T a massive midgame window for attacking. The point of hellions is to harm the zerg economy. By making roaches, that's harming the economy anyway. Your "solution" is to say "no matter what, hellions are free damage to economey either by killing drones, or by harming the economy by forcing a specific type of defense which then ends up being useless as the game goes on and just exists to set back the zerg economy". While it would stop the damage done by hellions, potentially, that damage would be done by making the roaches in the first place, meaning you gain nothing at all, and the mere existence of hellions becomes the strength. That's not to say the buff to queens was necessary, just that the roach solution isn't a solution to the problem of early game hellions.
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so)
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Now that is a pretty reasonable and though out post about the problem and i can totally agree about all points made. Very good stuff indeed.
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I've always thought that courruptors were wayyyy too tanky, maybe if they had less hp, endgame ZvT battles would be a lot closer instead of an infestor broodlord stomp.
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The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
I'm not what world you live in but no pressure till medivacs will mean autolose, there is no 2 base play for terran that will ever come close to snping a third, let alone trade evenly. The only reason this would ever work is if zergs are terrible or they were so greedy that they didn't throw down a precautionary baneling nest and spent all energy on tumors
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> Metagame is mostly fine
> Blizzard makes some changes
> Metagame is ruined
Why not, like, reverse the changes? The only reason against it is that the now legally-declared clueless balance team would have to admit that they were stone wrong, which obviously, couldn't possibly happen.
And if you wanted to fix something, try another option. Insane, I know.
Infestors aren't even that big a problem, it's just a powerful visual that people can rally behind. People are as desperate as to suggest Friendly Fire for Fungal, lol. There's a billion ways to fix the metagame.
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On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions.
Yes, and we shall keep doing that as long as Speedlings exist because all other Terran ground units are much slower than Speedlings, making movements on the map awkward/unsafe unless you're 100% sure Zerg did not get Metabolic Boost. Terran players get Hellions because they grant map control; with bio openings you're fairly in the dark.
On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening
No, you can't be sure of that, Zerg can get dual gas afterwards and get delayed Speed or Roaches; even Roach/Baneling busts can be done out of gasless opening with 3 gases taken at once (DRG did that in the past).
On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg.
2-bases timings are horrible nowadays because Zerg sacrifices an Overlord, scouts your timing, reacts accordingly and stays ahead (which means auto-win with the current state of TvZ unless Zerg makes a major blunder afterwards) because he's able to keep his third while yours starts late.
On December 24 2012 03:02 Lonyo wrote:
You do realise WHY zergs didn't do that, right?
Wrong, some Zergs were doing that, e. g. Nerchio then Stephano in Europe. Getting some Roaches to morph an earlier third was not at all the painful sacrifice you're describing.
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On December 24 2012 03:05 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so)
While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend.
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On December 24 2012 03:28 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 03:05 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so) While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend.
2 gas = 150 minerals
factory = 150 minerals 100 gas
reactor = 50 minerals 50 gas
total 350 minerals 150 gas
by building all this tech earlier that you so casually and quickly passed over you're pretty much sacrificing having an entire extra OC just to make the zerg have to spend 250/100 + drone .... Who exactly is getting the bigger benefit here? Even if it is the terran it's not exactly hugely game breaking is it?
Yes it advances your tech but the sacrifice in economy is HUGE.
The problem is that it's just so accepted that zergs make only drones for the first 8-10 minutes of the game that if they have to sacrifice ANY economy at all to deal with any sort of harrass it's completely unacceptable.
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EPT
