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On December 24 2012 05:09 FeyFey wrote:
would love if they do something to creep, its a passive defenders advantage and Zergs where struggling really hard when they didn't use it. And even now they just use it barely, but Blizzard made it easy to spread it without any effort.
It recedes way too slowly. There is almost no incentive for Terran to clear up creep spread until their push because queens can just poop on it and none if it goes away.
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On December 24 2012 04:11 deltatwist wrote:
nerfs incoming. from db's twitter: "It looks like our last Infestor nerfs were not enough. We will look to patch again sometime in January." about time!
Seriously? Thank god.
Good job, Browder. About fucking time, too.
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On December 24 2012 05:02 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 04:53 Corsica wrote:
Ok this is stupid:
Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.
when you drop in 2-3 places You can just stim + amove and if i didnt sent enoguh lings ill probably lose a lot of drones/tech. Not to mention BFH which can kill a lot. If ling runby its your fault for not walling off, spotting it in time, besides they are easy to clean up;. Ok... lets run through how to do these tactics. Ling Runby: Press 1, right click. Either let them attack on their own once in, or click 1 once more, click a, right click. If depot wall is up, click once more. Back to macro after 1-2 seconds. Dropping 3 places at once: 1 shift click to location, 2 shift click to location, 3 shift click to location, back to 1, look for spores/spines/queens, adjust postion, back to 2, repeat, back to 3 repeat. Back to 1, find location is safe and hit D and click. Back to 2, repeat, back to 3, repeat. Back to 1 stim as rines are dropping to actually kill something before the lings get there. Stim others as they drop. Back to 2, repeat, back to 3, repeat. Back to 1, find a building/queen/whatever you can actually damage, reapeat for 2 and 3. When threat of dying gets there either die or load back up, reapeat for 2 and 3. Run medivacs if you are not killed yet for all 3 positions. While doing all of this, if you miss a round of marines or tanks you will probably get overrun, so keep macro going during this process.
I like how you consider a ling runby and dropping in 3 places the same thing, as clearly ling runby will be easier since you're only harassing at one point instead of 3 points. And you can shift-click all of the medivac drops for each hotkey in one move instead of switching between the three over and over, that's just extra actions you don't need to add on.
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Thank god for infestor nerfs. I saw someone mentioned a creep nerf, which would be god send as well. TvZ was my favorite match-up...
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This match up pretty much pushed 50% of foreign terrans out of the game...
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They match-up is definitely zerg favored, but I actually think that army clumping aside, terran is actually much more forgiving as a race than zerg, since they have mules, scans, repair, and can sim city/use range to their advantage.
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On December 05 2012 11:39 Thienan567 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine. Yea man, zergs never whine... Of course they don't! With broodlordinfestor zergs don't really have a reason to complain. 
Cough *WonWonWon* Cough Cough.
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[QUOTE]On December 05 2012 13:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
Good lord.
All is fine eh?
Give me one example of a common Z "mistake" that is as game changing as leaving your camera off your marine group for even less than second????? Everybody knows that the slightest Terran mistake in TvZ is INSTANT GG, and there are plenty of games to prove it. The last time Z even had a close resemblance to this much of game changing mistake was when they made mutas, but that is obviously out the window now. You use a 3 prong drop as an example of causing you to "have a hard time." but compare how much effort that is on the Terran side(3 battles at once all with different rallys and timings) to the Z side where you hit one(yes one!) F button. So give me an example please.
Your part on the queens is absolutely fucking retarted, you pay for those queens???? o rly?!?!? The whole fucking point of the Z race is that it has to always chose between drones and units to make it to late game safely. Queens do not cost larva(are you sure you still really "pay" for queens?) and since they have been buffed they now become the perfect medium for Z to literally break there races own weakness by getting units without losing drones. So trying to say queens are not the issue is quite the fail, considering how key they are to the whole problem at hand.
Of course you dont "want to discuss the end game at large" because what the hell is a Z to say about Terrans late game. You know its broken once you get the BL/infestor. End of discussion.
Basically you just ignored all of the facts about TvZ and said "Well us Zergs try to damnit!!"
Not a good reply.
I don''t think you understand what he means by "cue up three drops".
Edit: I don't know how I messed up the formatting so badly ^^;;
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I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP.
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On December 24 2012 05:55 Entteri wrote:
I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP.
To be fair I don't fully believe that the actual changes in the patch ruined the matchup. It helped for sure but I think it was more to do with the fact that zerg realised just how good queens actually were while at the same time discovering how ridiculously OP infestors are. Combine that with the fact that almost every map favours zerg these days and you've got the current state of TvZ.
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On December 24 2012 05:55 Entteri wrote:
I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP.
I'm pretty sure it was designed to fix ZvZ and David Kim posted something that Terran can too easily contain zerg in early game.
Kinda lazy to look for the links to blueposts.
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I was incredibly disappointed when you said "instead of whining..." then proceeded to do nothing but bitch.
1) A lot of the "benign" mistakes you mention are not benign mistakes at all. Getting caught without your tanks sieged is not benign, it's a classic mistake that has happened since BW. How about doing what every Terran has done since the beginning of time, and creep your tanks forward? With the huge range, it's not even like it'd take you long. Not taking along a Raven or scanning progressively (especially when you have 3 orbitals) makes it your fault when you get popped with burrowed banelings. Leaving depots in your wall lowered is a "I fucked up" moment, similar to when a Protoss doesn't wall off correctly. It's not imbalance, it's you screwing up. And if Terran screwing up doesn't mean the Zerg should be able to take the prerogative and rush in with zerglings, then I would like to know when they can.
Welcome to Starcraft 2, the game where if you screw up, you'll probably lose.
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
3) That "Lings of Liberty" was a troll thread, by the way.
4) Complaining about Infestors and saying the same thing everyone else has said for the past year isn't going to help your argument any.
5) Your harassment argument is invalid. When you go to expand, you should have to send an army there to clear out any obstacles. That includes sending two marines over to kill any overlords or defend against a potential burrowed zergling. By the time Zerg gets burrow you have enough marines to where you can send four over to an expansion to pre-clear it for expansion.
"Since terran is the only race without cheap, zero unit space, static defense" is A WHINE. You sneak in your complaints in a wall of text, and act like it means you aren't simply complaining. But when you don't say anything that Terran hasn't been saying for the past six months, and you do it in the guise of a learned player that is simply giving forth evidence that we should accept as gospel, you are.
And then "I don't have any answers..." Come on man. You can't make all of these suggestions, admit your bias, then don't even offer any suggestions. That's exactly what complaining is. Whining about something, then not offering any solutions.
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On December 24 2012 06:06 Mauldo wrote:
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
I like how you're just saying "get higher APM or reroll" right here. Sure, screw balance, get quicker hands, better strats and win. Oh, wait.
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Larva inject and infestors are way too good late game. Zerg has to be put under a lot of pressure early on and then continuously harassed late game, in order to play on equal terms. I agree that terran seems to be struggling late game and it's a bit boring to see the whole terran army being fungaled to death, just because the terran player lost focus for a split second.
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On December 24 2012 05:59 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 05:55 Entteri wrote:
I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP. To be fair I don't fully believe that the actual changes in the patch ruined the matchup. It helped for sure but I think it was more to do with the fact that zerg realised just how good queens actually were while at the same time discovering how ridiculously OP infestors are. Combine that with the fact that almost every map favours zerg these days and you've got the current state of TvZ.
No believe me it was definitely the patch that ruined it. You could punish queens by kiting with marines and hellions before and it was kindve a sick micro fest but the queen range at 5 makes it so you cant kite. This pretty much makes all fe -> more rax builds not worth doing because you cant punish the zerg for your life. I wish they'd just reset queen range to 3 :/
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On December 24 2012 06:06 Mauldo wrote:
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
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sorry... but creep spread is not fought back much in pro game tvz until... 14 min when 2-2 done. hellion cant now early cause of queens destroy them, cant make small armys to take out creep becausse speedling take map and will crush bio force early (there is reason why bio pushes fell out of favor to hellion banshee.. cause they can escape).
watch pro game in gsl code s, creep spread often stop terran from taking 4th on map like ohana or cloud kingdom, then the T just pulls all scv and hopes zerg F button is broken.
Also, many pros get "caught" unsieged because creep is so far to their base and they have to quickly get to zerg 4th to try and do damage and force a fight, if they creep tanks it will take too long and broodlord will be out...
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On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate
No... 1 gate expand for P in PvT, FFE for P in PvZ, 15/16/17 or w/e for Z in ZvT, etc etc there used to be a good very safe standard opening in all matchups including Reac hellion expand for T in TvZ until blizzard decided to shit all over their game... the ovie buff was smart. The queen buff was DERP DERP DERP. The reason sc2 is dying and has no viewers imo is single handedly the retarded queen buff... TvZ was everyones favourite matchup and 50/50 until then.
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Really sums up how I feel about the match up. It just doesn't feel dynamic anymore due to the unattackable mid game and brittleness of Terran making them so unforgiving in the match up. I realllly wish HotS was atleast looking at alternatives to queen range if Blizzard felt zerg was too vulnerable to various TvZ all ins (With the overlord speed change, zerg should have now been better able to scout what all in was coming and prepare. Still, if Blizzard feels that isn't enough there HAS to be a better alternative than Queendralisks)
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On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced...
Oh, really? IPL having only ZvZ, MLG with ZvZ fest, or GSL blizz cup where 50% in ro32 were zergs lead you to that conclusion?
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hopefully i can get this answer painlessly
ive heard alot of people whine about the Queen range and how it ruined TvZ but i honestly dont see how thats so except that for some reason Terran stopped using there hellions well
even with more range mass hellions (as shown in MVP VS Life finals) are still completely capable of just outright killing someone, you can still camp hellions outside your opponents natural and prevent alot of creep spread
queens still dont kill hellions quickly and can still be used to heavily delay the third and creep spread and get drone kills hellions jsut cant prevent the Zerg from taking there third until after the Terran has
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EPT
