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I've come to realize that these threads only make me angry.
Sure, tvz feels unfair to play, my main gripe being the zergs easy harassment solutions like burrow infestors and low-risk high reward ling runbys. Moving burrowed units while being nigh invisible is also a big flaw in my opinion.
As someone else noted, it's funny how Terran has become the reactive race that was meant to be Zerg. The crushing power of strategies centered to certain unit compositions that become too powerful without the correct response by Terran in time.
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness.
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On December 24 2012 06:27 Krakoskk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate No... 1 gate expand for P in PvT, FFE for P in PvZ, 15/16/17 or w/e for Z in ZvT, etc etc there used to be a good very safe standard opening in all matchups including Reac hellion expand for T in TvZ until blizzard decided to shit all over their game... the ovie buff was smart. The queen buff was DERP DERP DERP. The reason sc2 is dying and has no viewers imo is single handedly the retarded queen buff... TvZ was everyones favourite matchup and 50/50 until then.
There was also so much variation too. 12/14 rax's 12 12 rax's 1rax fe -> 4 rax punish rax fe rax rax gas gas into double medivac drop so much stuff could have been done in TvZ it was the golden age. There were so many builds terran could employ and it made for razor edge games. Now its pretty much the same game EVERY game. Its fucking gross.
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On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I've come to realize that these threads only make me angry.
Sure, tvz feels unfair to play, my main gripe being the zergs easy harassment solutions like burrow infestors and low-risk high reward ling runbys. Moving burrowed units while being nigh invisible is also a big flaw in my opinion.
As someone else noted, it's funny how Terran has become the reactive race that was meant to be Zerg. The crushing power of strategies centered to certain unit compositions that become too powerful without the correct response by Terran in time.
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness.
alot of early nerfs were changed back (just look at the bunker) so now there being much more smart and taking a good look first
also the Zerg was never "meant" to be the reactive race it was just played as the reactive race, when blizz made Zerg they didnt make it around it being reactive
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On December 24 2012 06:38 Forikorder wrote:
hopefully i can get this answer painlessly
ive heard alot of people whine about the Queen range and how it ruined TvZ but i honestly dont see how thats so except that for some reason Terran stopped using there hellions well
even with more range mass hellions (as shown in MVP VS Life finals) are still completely capable of just outright killing someone, you can still camp hellions outside your opponents natural and prevent alot of creep spread
queens still dont kill hellions quickly and can still be used to heavily delay the third and creep spread and get drone kills hellions jsut cant prevent the Zerg from taking there third until after the Terran has
that is only because zergs are now lacking spines and wall ins because they dont need it and thats if the terran gets 10 plus hellions which delays barracks
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On December 24 2012 06:36 truthUnderVeil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... Oh, really? IPL having only ZvZ, MLG with ZvZ fest, or GSL blizz cup where 50% in ro32 were zergs lead you to that conclusion?
GSL season 5 AND blizz cup. And HSC.
I also vote for a creep receding nerf. It is way way too slow. I would even prefer that over another infestor nerf.
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On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness.
Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly.
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On December 24 2012 06:44 Wrathsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:38 Forikorder wrote:
hopefully i can get this answer painlessly
ive heard alot of people whine about the Queen range and how it ruined TvZ but i honestly dont see how thats so except that for some reason Terran stopped using there hellions well
even with more range mass hellions (as shown in MVP VS Life finals) are still completely capable of just outright killing someone, you can still camp hellions outside your opponents natural and prevent alot of creep spread
queens still dont kill hellions quickly and can still be used to heavily delay the third and creep spread and get drone kills hellions jsut cant prevent the Zerg from taking there third until after the Terran has that is only because zergs are now lacking spines and wall ins because they dont need it and thats if the terran gets 10 plus hellions which delays barracks
spines and wall-ins dont help creep spread and taking your third
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On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly.
not really...
blue flame nerf
snipe nerf
were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf)
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On December 24 2012 06:44 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:36 truthUnderVeil wrote:On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... Oh, really? IPL having only ZvZ, MLG with ZvZ fest, or GSL blizz cup where 50% in ro32 were zergs lead you to that conclusion? GSL season 5 AND blizz cup. And HSC. I also vote for a creep receding nerf. It is way way too slow. I would even prefer that over another infestor nerf.
Why is blizzard so bad at coming up with nerfs? Like, it seems like they identify the problem but then they dont do the correct nerf. "Were seeing alot of creep spread out of zergs so now were going to make it so that raven doesnt have to research seeker missile." That was never the problem =.=.
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On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf)
reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2
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On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2
except that wasn't "taking their time"
o.o
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On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o
I think that the reaper one was justified in doing relatively quickly. Snipe was justified too i think, but they just butchered it imo. Shoulda done what QXC was suggesting and what everyone was rallying behind, making snipe do 45 damage but -25 to massive. Now i cant make ghosts and snipe zealots or anything to make them more useful. It kills innovation. QXC showed that when he beat puma by going marine medivac ghost lol.
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On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o
because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution
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Blizzards response is that HotS will be fixing a lot of the issues.
Not all of them, granted, but TvZ in HotS is way easier right now. The game will only be around for a few more months, they wont bother wasting their time 'fixing' things that will be fixed in a couple of months anyway.
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I recall I got temp banned three times in a row when the queen patch first came out. After watching how finesse TvZ early game was int BW for five years, I immediately recognized the ridiculous OP nature of the macro zergs were immediately given, and made that clear... apparently everyone else thought it was completely fair.
I stopped watching SC2 (as I'm sure many BW terrans did) a few weeks later, and didn't start until two days ago. Violia - Terrans getting STILL owned by zerg econ... no surprise there. It saddens me that when zerg have a low win rate, they'll complain and complain until every terran unit got nerfed minimum 2 times, but when terrans complain, it's either A) "Give terrans more time to adjust, they'll think of something", or B) (I quote) "Deal with it" .
I'm not the least bit surprised at all the panic SC2's gotten recently about the rise of DoTA/LoL and crappy viewership. If a race is so horrible its win rate is consistently ~30% tops, then yes, a significant portion of fans are gonna have problems with that.
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I was incredibly disappointed when you said "instead of whining..." then proceeded to do nothing but bitch.
1) A lot of the "benign" mistakes you mention are not benign mistakes at all. Getting caught without your tanks sieged is not benign, it's a classic mistake that has happened since BW. How about doing what every Terran has done since the beginning of time, and creep your tanks forward? With the huge range, it's not even like it'd take you long. Not taking along a Raven or scanning progressively (especially when you have 3 orbitals) makes it your fault when you get popped with burrowed banelings. Leaving depots in your wall lowered is a "I fucked up" moment, similar to when a Protoss doesn't wall off correctly. It's not imbalance, it's you screwing up. And if Terran screwing up doesn't mean the Zerg should be able to take the prerogative and rush in with zerglings, then I would like to know when they can.
Welcome to Starcraft 2, the game where if you screw up, you'll probably lose.
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
3) That "Lings of Liberty" was a troll thread, by the way.
4) Complaining about Infestors and saying the same thing everyone else has said for the past year isn't going to help your argument any.
5) Your harassment argument is invalid. When you go to expand, you should have to send an army there to clear out any obstacles. That includes sending two marines over to kill any overlords or defend against a potential burrowed zergling. By the time Zerg gets burrow you have enough marines to where you can send four over to an expansion to pre-clear it for expansion.
"Since terran is the only race without cheap, zero unit space, static defense" is A WHINE. You sneak in your complaints in a wall of text, and act like it means you aren't simply complaining. But when you don't say anything that Terran hasn't been saying for the past six months, and you do it in the guise of a learned player that is simply giving forth evidence that we should accept as gospel, you are.
And then "I don't have any answers..." Come on man. You can't make all of these suggestions, admit your bias, then don't even offer any suggestions. That's exactly what complaining is. Whining about something, then not offering any solutions.
Thank you Mauldo for taking the time to write such a long reply. Unfortunately, despite your efforts, you have received a grade of F for the following reasons:
- Failure to understand the author's point regarding benign mistakes. The author described the higher quantity of Terran benign mistakes compared to the other races. Your counter argument describes the solution to one of them instead of providing examples of other race's benign mistakes to show that all races have an equal number of benign mistakes.
- Incorrectly identifying creep as the epitome of the article. There are five epitomes, see the tldr sections of the article for their descriptions.
- Telling the author that complaining about infestors isn't going to change anything is false, see DB's tweet regarding pending infestor changes:
- Failure to understand the author's point regarding harassment. The author provided examples of how harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player. Your counter argument describes the solution to one of them instead of providing examples of how harassment tactics from Terran require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Zerg to deal with than Zerg harassment does for a Terran player.
Thank you for reading, your participation on the Team Liquid forums is both valuable and appreciated by all community members
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actually its true, Blizz is gonna go at there own pace ragardless of the vocal minority
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On December 24 2012 06:50 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution
Well one can say that about pretty much anything tbh. Obvious one solution to infestors being very strong is to nerf them to the ground. Then we can argue if that is a smart solution(which I'd not think it would be), just as I'd argue both the blue flame and snipe(especially) nerf were terrible ones. It's just silly to say "yer snipe was never intended to kill non-casters" and then think blizz intended zergs to have up to 35 infestors/swarm of ITs.
Edit: Rereading my post, I think my point wasn't really clear. I'm only saying that they have done terrible knee jerk nerfs in the past. It wasn't an "obvious problem" but it sure was an easy "fix" by blizzard, they just killed the unit and left it out to rot. Sadly with the state of Z, they can't just kill the unit, though it'd probably be the best thing ever for the game, along with a huge buff to an interesting unit such as the hydra, lings, blings or possibly mutas.
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Thank you for your quick reply Forikorder. Due to the short length of your reply, a letter grade cannot be given but I will give you a pass. However, please note that the point in question was not the length of time required to implement the infestor change but whether or not the change will be implemented. It is true that Blizzard took too long but they are indeed planning to make the change, thus making the original point true and not false as you said.
Thank you for reading, your participation on the Team Liquid forums is both valuable and appreciated by all community members.
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On December 24 2012 06:50 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o I think that the reaper one was justified in doing relatively quickly. Snipe was justified too i think, but they just butchered it imo. Shoulda done what QXC was suggesting and what everyone was rallying behind, making snipe do 45 damage but -25 to massive. Now i cant make ghosts and snipe zealots or anything to make them more useful. It kills innovation. QXC showed that when he beat puma by going marine medivac ghost lol.
This. Ghosts were the only energy unit terrans had that was versatile. Now we have to continually rely on brute force and micro throughout the midgame to win, forcing a smaller number of broods/infestors to the point where we can get the right number of counter units. TvZ is still a one way track where the ONLY cost-effective way of hurting zerg econ is getting a good siege position in the midgame so their bank isn't big enough for 10 broodlords and 8 infestors. By cost-effective I mean early game attacks before say 12 min. rarely have the opportunity to hurt zerg economy unless they zerg screws up. Every TvZ feels static because any cute drone/queen/ling/hatch kills become negligible due to the large amount of larva and superior static defense zergs have at their fingertips.
You can kill drones for 9 min. straight, but you still will have not hurt the zergs economy on 2 bases. They will still have the static army to defend a timing attack. All that you did was minimize the amount of drones they will saturate on their first 2 bases in the midgame. They will still recover in drones and still get up a 3rd and 4th with relative ease.
Edit: Just noticed catnzhat's post and forgot to mention maps. The maps are TOO LARGE. Blizzard has successfully steered every new map pool away from short games to macro games, which zerg successfullly has had with nearly every new patch a buff. It's why many toss still rely on MC-style 2 base all-ins.
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EPT
