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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
One thing to note is that infestors take up way more space than ht's so you get a lot less in emps even if there is no spreading.
And infestors fighting back (ghosts fungaled = bye bye) can have way more of a drastic impact.
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On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
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On December 05 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. As much as I'm all for change, and I'm too new to the game to have played before 3 queen range, but weren't hellions the most overpowered shit in the game? You could deny Zerg's third while taking a third of your own for free, and Zerg had to invest >300 minerals defensively just to survive the first 4-6 hellions? That's like Protoss having to build 2 more cannons to defend the first few lings of Zerg, seems kind of bullshit. Like my impression was that not only did hellions deny Zerg's third base (which is OK), but they could also trade effectively for drones, every time. Just providing the counterargument, again I never played back then.
. what are u talking about. terran made 4-6 helli. thats 400-600 minerals. ofcourse he can run helli around. if u only make drones instead of lings, u will get runby. if u make 500mineral worth of lings, thats about 20 lings u can fend off those hellion and also threaten terran's 3rd too. play greedy and u lose drone...
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
ever saw someone sitting out every single storm? 
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On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
even if infesters are as "almost impossible" to stop as you say mass ghost was literally impossible to stop
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On December 24 2012 04:53 Corsica wrote:
Ok this is stupid:
Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.
when you drop in 2-3 places You can just stim + amove and if i didnt sent enoguh lings ill probably lose a lot of drones/tech. Not to mention BFH which can kill a lot. If ling runby its your fault for not walling off, spotting it in time, besides they are easy to clean up;.
You have overlords to spot drops coming. You have insane movement on creep. You have mobile static defense.
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On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed.
Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying f about the ghost nerf because it was boring to watch&play. 2 sides turtle to mass bl/inf vs mass ghost/vik ftw.
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On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play.
Mouse wheel bug came out a bit after mvp started showing how to mass snipe.
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On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf)
I myself am surprised looking back at the snipe nerf. It was what, 2 months since it became common place before it was nerfed to the ground and fungal is just as good / better than snipe was and it's been unchanged for a long time (excluding the beta ofc)
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On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play.
Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games.
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
The ignorance is strong with this one..
Several points:
Terrans dont sit into storms, when they do get hit they run out so the storm doesnt do it's full potential of damage. Where fungal always does the full amount.
Protoss cant make 10+ HT's cause they clump up and EMP is too effective against it.. Infestors are huge so they dont have this problem, ghost arent even made due to this
Zerg still have the energy upgrade, protoss has to wait for 75 energy. And you still have infested terrans when you dont have enough energy for fungal which makes it useful for dps too..
Edit: Havent even mentioned chain fungals..
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On December 24 2012 08:47 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play. Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games.
its called tech switch to back to lings and own his mass ghosts, and zergs were doing that.
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On December 24 2012 08:50 Addict wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:
[quote]
Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other. The ignorance is strong with this one.. Several points: Terrans dont sit into storms, when they do get hit they run out so the storm doesnt do it's full potential of damage. Where fungal always does the full amount. Protoss cant make 10+ HT's cause they clump up and EMP is too effective against it.. Infestors are huge so they dont have this problem, ghost arent even made due to this Zerg still have the energy upgrade, protoss has to wait for 75 energy. And you still have infested terrans when you dont have enough energy for fungal which makes it useful for dps too..
Good points. TvP is fine.
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On December 24 2012 08:51 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:47 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play. Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games. its called tech switch to back to lings and own his mass ghosts, and zergs were doing that.
Through the simcity? Cloak? Good luck.
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On December 24 2012 08:51 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:47 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play. Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games. its called tech switch to back to lings and own his mass ghosts, and zergs were doing that.
the marines and ghosts could take on infinte lings and be fine 3/3 marines and ghosts can wade in Zerglings as needed
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
Can't emp as many infestors as HT
Infestors move faster
Infestors move even FASTER on creep
Infestors can go invisible
Fungle has a wider radius
Fungle roots
If fungle hits you then you're going to take all of its damage and there's nothing you can do about it.
But yeah other than that they're pretty much the same .....
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On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
[B]as well as the people who whine about others whining.
Your argument goes around in circles
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Great write-up. Lots of "awesome" two sentence responses from Zerg like "oh you just qq all the time"... *sigh*
Honestly guys, there's so much depth to this, and Nebbish did a great job of breaking it down. Although there's a TON more he could have brought up and said, there's a point where you can only say so much without completely drowning in details.
Picture this:
Zerg opens hatch first, 5 minute 3rd, 3 queens (1 in main, 2 in natural), pure drone.
Terran opens 4 naked rax, expo at 6 mins, double gas at 6:15. 18 marines show up at Zerg's doorstep at 6:15, and 4 marines at a time from there on out.
If you're designing a game of counters... who should win this match?
If you've played TvZ any amount of time, who do you think survives this rather easily with minimal damage and 3 living hatcheries? (And before you say "so what, go kill the 3rd", big freaking deal, so now your early aggression means you're only completely economically behind). Zerg's lost $300 and a drone, and you've wasted $1000 - $1500 on marines that you don't need right now and can't do jack with.
NOW, picture this:
Terran opens CC first, into rax, into 6 minute 3rd in place.
Zerg opens hatch first, pool, into 6 initial lings.
How much damage is that $150 guaranteed to do to the Terran? Now Terran is sitting on 1 base again because his CC's are both flying in the air doing nothing and all his SCV's are dead at the natural (and the construction SCV at the 3rd, if he finishes it in time).
Sorry, it's a very bad design IMHO. Lots could be fixed (and needs to be), and like Nebbish, I don't pretend to have the answers. I have some ideas that could help fill some holes (like if anyone ever gets into a Terran's production area, they're guaranteed to win the game because our units pop out one at a time in different spots, and just get picked off). Things like drop pods would help things like that, but that's getting way off topic.
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Let me repeat what I have said and called for in the other thread. Blizzard need to fire Dustin Browder and his sidekick Robin, uhm I mean Kim and put Rob Pardo and Starcraft 1 designer in charge again. Rob Pardo is a genious, that man is behind all of the success and game development at Blizzard and he was responsible for the SC2 campaign. While the SC2 story sucked, the campaign was a blast and the new one seems to be even better. Rob Pardo needs to be put in charge of multiplayer and the infiltrators Dustin Browder and David Kim the two big Red Alert noobs need to be fired.
So lets all push for Blizzard to fire Browder and Kim before they destroy SC2 completely and lets have Rob Pardo take over multiplayer development again.
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On December 24 2012 09:04 barwick11 wrote:
Great write-up. Lots of "awesome" two sentence responses from Zerg like "oh you just qq all the time"... *sigh*
Honestly guys, there's so much depth to this, and Nebbish did a great job of breaking it down. Although there's a TON more he could have brought up and said, there's a point where you can only say so much without completely drowning in details.
Picture this:
Zerg opens hatch first, 5 minute 3rd, 3 queens (1 in main, 2 in natural), pure drone.
Terran opens 4 naked rax, expo at 6 mins, double gas at 6:15. 18 marines show up at Zerg's doorstep at 6:15, and 4 marines at a time from there on out.
If you're designing a game of counters... who should win this match?
If you've played TvZ any amount of time, who do you think survives this rather easily with minimal damage and 3 living hatcheries? (And before you say "so what, go kill the 3rd", big freaking deal, so now your early aggression means you're only completely economically behind). Zerg's lost $300 and a drone, and you've wasted $1000 - $1500 on marines that you don't need right now and can't do jack with.
NOW, picture this:
Terran opens CC first, into rax, into 6 minute 3rd in place.
Zerg opens hatch first, pool, into 6 initial lings.
How much damage is that $150 guaranteed to do to the Terran? Now Terran is sitting on 1 base again because his CC's are both flying in the air doing nothing and all his SCV's are dead at the natural (and the construction SCV at the 3rd, if he finishes it in time).
Sorry, it's a very bad design IMHO. Lots could be fixed (and needs to be), and like Nebbish, I don't pretend to have the answers. I have some ideas that could help fill some holes (like if anyone ever gets into a Terran's production area, they're guaranteed to win the game because our units pop out one at a time in different spots, and just get picked off). Things like drop pods would help things like that, but that's getting way off topic.
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad
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EPT
