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On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily
I put it in an earlier post, but the ghost army was mainly OP due to map design where it only took a few PFs to split the map perfectly 50/50 (think Shakuras). PFs + a good wall and those lings are worthless. Also keep in mind the ghost army was actually popular with mech builds too, so some hellions and ghosts hiding behind a few thors? good luck zerglings!
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On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane
I don't understand why people keep argueing that ghosts are good against ultras. How many f***ing ghosts are you allowing the terran to get, and where is your army? Ultras took 12 snipes to kill, or 300 energy. Get like 5 ultras, run them in and if the terran snipes them, the stream of sling/bling after them would decimate them. Ghosts were hardly good against ultras, they just cushioned the tech switching blow, but more importantly, since you were making ghosts, you had tech labs so you were ready to make rauders, which ofcourse slaughter ultras.
Furtheremore, it was only on a handful of maps where getting this kind of ghost army without just getting killed was possible(assuming you hadn't already essentially won the game), it was: metalopolis and shakuras. Personally I just think those 2 maps(and the big brother of meta) are just stupid and that was a lot bigger problem than ghosts.
Nowadays terran is missing that unit/ability that works good/decently on both t3. Add insult into injury, ghost/infestor war just isn't very good in TvZ, since ghosts are so useless except for sniping infestors. Compare it to TvP, if the hts hide behind the main army, atleast you can throw down EMPs. If the zerg army engages with the infestors hanging back for the start, the ghosts either move back or die from BL/tanks and the infestors are now safely protecting the BLs underneath(so the corruptors can fly backwards and if vikings follow they get FG'd). The caster dynamic is just so different due to BLs and corruptor/viking war.
I'm not saying snipe shouldn't have been nerfed, it probably should've. However you don't castrate it. Fx. changing it to 35 dmg(or better 45dmg with -10 massive, or 35+10 psionic) would've been much better, so instead of an increase of required snipes by 50%/75%(BL/ultra) it'd be 16,7%/25% and see where that lands us.
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Nerf queen range. Buff ghost snipe.
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On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily
40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts
that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens
okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it
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Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor.
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If i remember right queen had the range of 3, right? so why not make it range 4 instead of 5. Also maybe remove the +25 energy buff from Infestor and make them spawn with 50mana and make an upgrade required for fungal. Maybe it fucks up every other match up who knows... you can never have perfect balance :/
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On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor.
jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures
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There are issues all over this game, many mistakes were made in both race design and balance philosophy. They have balanced the game around overall win rates, which has left us with drastic disparities in early/mid/late game win rates. The people making decisions about starcraft 2 have been very stubborn and reluctant to admit their mistakes and rectify them.
Many of these problems were pointed out very early in Sc2's life. As early as Beta people pointed out the flaws of putting force field in the game, and years later we see it abused to no end, in immortal sentry all ins. Without Force fields protoss would be crippled because they cannot control engagements and are not cost effective without them. Protoss units being slow, having no way to retreat, and also having really poor dps for cost in the case of the stalker (which has less dps than 1 unstimmed marine but costs much more) Warp gates are also to blame here, they are the core production mechanic of protoss and they've been nerfed many times (rightfully so). They completely remove defenders advantage in many cases and make for very powerful all in timings. With FF's and Warp being protoss early and mid game backbone, it's almost impossible to balance them in terms of being able to be out on the map, yet not 1 dimensional and overpowered for timing attacks. The issues with warp gate being in the game were pointed out as early as beta also. Protoss would be better if FF's didn't exist, or were killable, and warp only worked with prisms. But if you did this, you'd have to start from scratch balancing protoss in the early and mid game.
Terran had a very strong early and mid game, and it is still not bad. But medevacs, and reapers ability to negate terrain and medevacs ability to create a snowball effect in engagements meant constant nerfs to terran early game. (by snowball effect I mean that once you engage an MMM army and they kill enough of your dps there is no coming back, because of the constant stimming and healing) This is a big reason why Force fields had to stay in the game, protoss would not be able to handle simple barracks aggression without being able to simply deny or delay a fight using FF. Also, the amount of options terran had for strong harass (drops, hellions, banshees) and the fact that almost any terran unit can be rushed brought on many nerfs. (Remeber thor/repair rushes?) While terran is able to stand it's ground in the early and mid game, the terran late game sucks. In part because the units can all be rushed so they had to be weak enough for other races to manage them coming out in the early/mid game, also because terran can't safely get to a nice late game army. The production mechanics of terran make it very hard to transition, also the ability of protoss and zerg to negate terrain with things like blink/prism/muta/nydus, or to break bunkers with things like FF's/immortals/colossus/banlings means that terran cannot rely on having a nice wall with a bunker or two and a tank or 2 and expect to hold aggression. Because the wall can either be broken (FF,baneling,immortals, roaches) or bypassed all together. The many ways the terrain is negated and defenders advantage is barely present is another thing that has been brought up countless times from beta until now.
With zerg the issue is simply how the race works. Zerg being unhampered early, means they get to late game while terran or protoss are still in their midgame compositions. Zergs that lose drones early, die in the mid game, because they get to hive too late. Zergs ability to all in, but not really be all in, with banling busts or tech switches, means the other races can't safely play as greedy as zerg. What we've seen is a bunch of nerfs to things which can punish greedy zerg play, (blink,stim,hellions, even zealots) and buffs to zergs early game (roach range, queens, root time) Zerg has always relied on their hive tech to win games, so in order to balance zerg win rates they have been given an easier and easier time getting to late game, instead of fixing the actual problems with early/mid game balance. The way to go IMO is to nerf inject, nerf broodlords, and then buff zergs mid game until mid/late game are both balanced.
Now we have hots, protoss's are getting the moma core, that to me is just a huge bandaid hero unit, to fix the protoss early game. (protoss's lack of scouting in early game, and it's difficulty in putting on pressure without being completely all in.( when I say all in I mean to do significant damage with a timing attack or you are hopelessly behind) It would be a lot of work to actually rework the race and its mechanics, and apparently there is little interest in doing this. Terran is getting little in the way of a late game that matters, it is another issue I feel unaddressed in hots. Zerg is getting a bunch of new toys, and redundant counters to things, also more units that spit out free units (yet we still see the massive balance issue units like infested terrans, and broodlords. Why would you add another free unit producer when you haven't been able to balance the last two?)
In all of this we also tend to forget one other (if not the biggest) balance issue that Sc2 has had MAPS!
Remember the horrible, tiny, imbalanced maps we had for the first year of starcraft 2? Remember when every map provided tons of air space for enemies to hang around behind your main mineral line, the wide open naturals and undefendable 3rd bases that could never be taken early, remember the high ground overlooking the natural, remember the 12 second rush distances, and all the close spawns?
How many balance changes were necessary because of the maps? Why were these changes not revisited once we started using better maps? Can we put tanks back to 65 base damage because we don't spawn with naturals that are almost in tank range of each other? Can we return reaper speed to it's previous state of no factory needed? Can we return the gateway unit production back to it's pre nerf speeds?
Here are some other ideas, what if protoss had shield batteries and FF's had health? What if vikings were good on the ground (like they were pre nerf) What if vikings could be produced from a factory? What if overlords could detect? What if hydras shared the roach upgrades (regen and burrow move) ?
What really drives me nuts is that instead of trying simple things like revisiting an outdated nerf, they are try to be overly creative. They are trying to force in units that really don't have a place. We see this with the many oracle changes, overseer changes, protoss air changes, terran factory changes. There is an apparent biased against saying that something in broodwar was awesome, and has a place in sc2. Remember arbiters, spidermines, vultures, goliaths, lurkers? Remember how zergs air morphing went muta into devourer or guardian (instead of muta can't morph and zergs flying anti air unit can morph into the best siege unit in the game, the broodlord)
I believe terran can have mech or bio viable in every matchup, I believe protoss can do something other than turtle and all in, I believe all the matchups could play better and be balanced throughout the early/mid/late game. But none of this will happen if the designers and people balancing Sc2 and it's expansions remove all the things they have holding them back. They need to start ignoring overall win rates and look at winrates during each game phase. The need to be willing to bring back a broodwar unit if it is needed and it works, they need to be willing to undo previous changes and do very small slight changes instead of drastic ones. Also, THEY NEED TO BALANCE THE GAME ON BETTER MAPS They are making the same mistakes they made with WOL, they are doing testing and making balance decisions on terrible maps that no one wants to use, and will be shelved as soon as better ones are made.
Blizzard really needs to get some of the brilliant freelance map makers out there helping them out with maps. I'd bet if they just had a monthly map contest, where they posted all the maps submitted, then made an independent ladder with the highest voted 8 maps, or had a pro tourney on the highest voted maps. Then had a vote at the end of the tourney and kept the highest voted 1 or 2 maps left at the end and put them on the regular ladder (giving the mapmakers credit and a special map creator title or icon would be cool) they could have a huge pool of great maps to draw from.
TLDR;
This post isn't really stating anything new. I am just restating some of the many things that have been being discussed as far back as WOL BETA. There has been too much reluctance to recycle the best units from BW that would be awesome additions to SC2 and there is too much reluctance to revisit balance changes that were made because of the terrible maps used at the time of the change. This mistake is being repeated with the bad HOTS map pool.
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On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures
killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax.
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Puma vs Soulkey was painful to watch ><. Anyone remember Hero vs Leenock as well? There no quick solution here, Blizz just did a terrible job designing, got way to cute with gimmicks and ignored sound RTS design.
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On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion.
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On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax.
if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out
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On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion.
there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine
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On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
He was being objective. There was an incredibly low sample size of games to argue whether it was broken. It should have been given time. Same thing happened to everything Terran. Blue flame hellions were nerfed after one tournament weekend. That's not any sample size of games that's meaningful, that's knee jerk balance patching. Serv is being objective.
Now, over 1 year of brood/infestor and Terran having no lategame answer, and now Protoss also showing to be in the same boat. There is not only a high volume of games here to get, there's tournament results, there's ladder data, the list goes on and this is worse than any 5 games of mass ghost has ever been. It was ridiculous to nerf ghosts that fast when at the time Terran basically had no lategame options except ghosts - which left them with basically nothing afterwards.
The ridiculousness goes the opposite direction too. Ghosts were nerfed way too soon yes, but infestors/Zerg way too late!
Where was the consistency, or this "objectivity" you speak of? Nerfing Terran after one tournament weekend of results? But waiting over 1 year for Zerg and the game coming to this point where it's starting to drive spectators away?
I'm just replying responding you attacking servyoa here. There was no bias. There were about ~5 broadcasted games of Terrans utilizing mass ghost in the lategame, and probably 2-3 of those were MVP.
Even 10 games is not enough to judge. Zergs were already discovering the answer to mass ghost lategame right before ghosts were nerfed, which was switching back into mass tier 1/2 units with roaches/ling/mass banes and overseers.
This never came to light because the nerf bat hit so quick.
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On December 24 2012 10:37 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. He was being objective. There was an incredibly low sample size of games to argue whether it was broken. It should have been given time. Same thing happened to everything Terran. Blue flame hellions were nerfed after one tournament weekend. That's not any sample size of games that's meaningful, that's knee jerk balance patching. Serv is being objective. Now, over 1 year of brood/infestor and Terran having no lategame answer, and now Protoss also showing to be in the same boat. There is not only a high volume of games here to get, there's tournament results, there's ladder data, the list goes on and this is worse than any 5 games of mass ghost has ever been. Where was the consistency, or this "objectivity" you speak of? Nerfing Terran after one tournament weekend of results? But waiting over 1 year for Zerg and the game coming to this point where it's starting to drive spectators away? I'm just replying responding you attacking servyoa here. There was no bias. There were about ~5 broadcasted games of Terrans utilizing mass ghost in the lategame, and probably 2-3 of those were MVP. Even 10 games is not enough to judge. Zergs were already discovering the answer to mass ghost lategame right before ghosts were nerfed, which was switching back into mass tier 1/2 units with roaches/ling/mass banes and overseers. This never came to light because the nerf bat hit so quick.
i dont even understand how you can possibly think your logic is at all right
if Zerg found a strat that was literally unstoppable wouldnt you wanted it nerfed immediately?
it was literally impossible to win a late game TvZ if the T was at all competant it was impossible to engage the ghosts you couldnt micro away from snipe you couldnt dodge it, you couldnt even bait it since snipe does all its damage up front
there was no answer to mass ghost
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On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out
Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/
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On December 24 2012 10:40 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/
nonononnononon you never land the vikings you jsut drop some autoturrets unless they have a literal ring of spinecrawlers around every building theres some deadzone where you can put auto turrets that can hit a hatch/reater spire/workers and they have to respond to it
just run in, drop 10 turrets and run out no risk extremely high reward
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Blizzard needs to revert the ghost changes, both the emp and snipe nerfs. Blizzard should have left the metagame to develop before nerfing them. How many pro games involved mass ghosts at that point? I can only remember three games, and they all had MVP (MVP vs july, MVP vs Nestea, MVP vs Nerchio? MVP lost this one too). So nerfing a unit just upon the results of three games is completely REASONABLE! /sarcasm.
Besides ghost snipe is only single target damage that happens to be incredibly APM heavy as well. If Blizzard doesnt have a problem with 2-3 fungals destroying 30 marines or 15 vikings, why do they have a problem with a spell that doesnt even do AOE damage? Also do people realize how fragile ghosts are? One fungal or a few baneling detonations and your entire group of ghosts are dead.
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On December 24 2012 10:40 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:37 avilo wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. He was being objective. There was an incredibly low sample size of games to argue whether it was broken. It should have been given time. Same thing happened to everything Terran. Blue flame hellions were nerfed after one tournament weekend. That's not any sample size of games that's meaningful, that's knee jerk balance patching. Serv is being objective. Now, over 1 year of brood/infestor and Terran having no lategame answer, and now Protoss also showing to be in the same boat. There is not only a high volume of games here to get, there's tournament results, there's ladder data, the list goes on and this is worse than any 5 games of mass ghost has ever been. Where was the consistency, or this "objectivity" you speak of? Nerfing Terran after one tournament weekend of results? But waiting over 1 year for Zerg and the game coming to this point where it's starting to drive spectators away? I'm just replying responding you attacking servyoa here. There was no bias. There were about ~5 broadcasted games of Terrans utilizing mass ghost in the lategame, and probably 2-3 of those were MVP. Even 10 games is not enough to judge. Zergs were already discovering the answer to mass ghost lategame right before ghosts were nerfed, which was switching back into mass tier 1/2 units with roaches/ling/mass banes and overseers. This never came to light because the nerf bat hit so quick. i dont even understand how you can possibly think your logic is at all right if Zerg found a strat that was literally unstoppable wouldnt you wanted it nerfed immediately? it was literally impossible to win a late game TvZ if the T was at all competant it was impossible to engage the ghosts you couldnt micro away from snipe you couldnt dodge it, you couldnt even bait it since snipe does all its damage up front there was no answer to mass ghost
Read my post, instead of trying to pretend something was unstoppable when it was not and there was no volume of games to even say anything near that.
I remember ghosts in lategame quite well, I've used quite a few nukes in my time.
At the time Terrans were being urged by literally everyone, including ZERGS, to utilize ghosts in the lategame to counter broodlords/ultras and tech switches. One of the biggest proponents of this was IDRA.
Terrans started to do it and the next thing you know, after less than 10 total broadcasted games of this NEW LATEGAME the ghost was nerfed. It was not unstoppable. You are just trying to SHOUT here.
Zergs were finding answers to it, I remember playing/watching quite a few games and replays where Zergs were starting to down-tech purposely back into mass ling/baneling to deal with the "mass ghosts" which worked really well because there were way too many targets to snipe. This in conjunction with fungal among other things was turning out to be quite the counter.
None of this came to light because instead of "wait and see" blizzard immediately nerfed it after watching only MVP do it 2 times. (along with Zergs whining on the forums, which is the opposite of today. The difference? Terrans right now are whining after over an entire year of obvious balance issues, Zergs were whining after 1 week of possible issues).
So no, you're basically just wrong. Don't even bother posting if you're going to just try and SHOUT that it was "UNSTOPPABLE1!!!1!" You have no clue what you're talking about.
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On December 24 2012 10:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:40 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/ nonononnononon you never land the vikings you jsut drop some autoturrets unless they have a literal ring of spinecrawlers around every building theres some deadzone where you can put auto turrets that can hit a hatch/reater spire/workers and they have to respond to it just run in, drop 10 turrets and run out no risk extremely high reward
Is this a joke post? Dropping auto turrets in enemies base is extremely high risk, low reward. Auto turrets do absolutely garbage damage and gets destroyed by just about any zerg unit. In late game, it takes 2-3 zerglings to kill an auto turret. Hows that for 50 energy spent? Besides sending Ravens into enemy base is a one way trip. One fungal and none of them will make it out alive.
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EPT
