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TvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
December 24 2012 00:08 GMT
#181
I don´t think so. First of all I have no idea who you are. Where do you take your knowledge from? The last patch is so recent that only tiptop players should be able to make good evaluations of the situation. Secondly in Korea winrates are quite decent. I think Blizzard is looking at the wrong tournaments (probably on purpose) and are trying to get the community in a good mood. I don´t mind because I think fungal is an abomination and should burn in hell, but I don´t think its necessary from a balance perspective.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-24 00:13:53
December 24 2012 00:10 GMT
#182
On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.


Yea man, zergs never whine...

All sides whine, it's just Terrans taking their turn.
OP should try playing as a Zerg, because he overlooks things like the options terran has to harass, and the strengths of terran. (e.g. wall off the run-bys)
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Celestia
Profile Joined February 2011
Mexico376 Posts
December 24 2012 00:10 GMT
#183
On December 24 2012 09:04 barwick11 wrote:
Things like drop pods would help things like that, but that's getting way off topic.

Omg, drop pods would help Terran a lot with their archaic production they have against Warpgates and Larva, I want.
Steglich
Profile Joined September 2011
Denmark282 Posts
December 24 2012 00:13 GMT
#184
there is NO doubt that the infestor is still too strong. The problem is not when you have 5-10 infestors, it is when you have 15+. No army in the game can stop a billion IT's + fungal + neural. The infestor is the single greatest army unit in the game AND it is the most versatile spellcaster aswell.
There is no doubt that they will get nerfed. The question is, can Blizzard get the perfect balance, making it a unit that is not worth massing - but yet still making it useful?
barwick11
Profile Joined July 2012
44 Posts
December 24 2012 00:14 GMT
#185
On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.

Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.


The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now.

What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing.

10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used?

And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports.
barwick11
Profile Joined July 2012
44 Posts
December 24 2012 00:15 GMT
#186
On December 24 2012 09:10 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.


Yea man, zergs never whine...

All sides whine, it's just Terrans taking their turn.
OP should try playing as a Zerg, because he overlooks things like the options terran has to harass, and the strengths of terran. (e.g. wall off the run-bys)


I know him. He off-races as Zerg a good amount, and so does Halby, for that exact reason you describe.
cArn-
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)824 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-24 00:17:40
December 24 2012 00:16 GMT
#187
Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)

It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all..
Twitter : http://twitter.com/CARNDARAK
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
December 24 2012 00:16 GMT
#188
On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:
On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.

Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.


The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now.

What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing.

10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used?

And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports.

ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes

Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane
barwick11
Profile Joined July 2012
44 Posts
December 24 2012 00:18 GMT
#189
On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad


Did you not read my post? And I quote:

Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings.

First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it.
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
December 24 2012 00:21 GMT
#190
On December 24 2012 09:18 barwick11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad


Did you not read my post? And I quote:

Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings.

First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it.

if terran opens 3 base and the zerg goes 2 base and makes 6 lings and does damage the terran is very very bad
syroz
Profile Joined September 2012
France249 Posts
December 24 2012 00:25 GMT
#191
Patch incoming next month, will nerf Z. (says dustin browder)
Fyy
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany82 Posts
December 24 2012 00:26 GMT
#192
On December 24 2012 09:21 Forikorder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 09:18 barwick11 wrote:
On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad


Did you not read my post? And I quote:

Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings.

First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it.

if terran opens 3 base and the zerg goes 2 base and makes 6 lings and does damage the terran is very very bad

to get the 3rd base as fast as zerg requires the terran to skip marines.. zerg will do damage
ArchAngelSC
Profile Joined April 2012
England706 Posts
December 24 2012 00:31 GMT
#193
On December 24 2012 09:26 Fyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 09:21 Forikorder wrote:
On December 24 2012 09:18 barwick11 wrote:
On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad


Did you not read my post? And I quote:

Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings.

First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it.

if terran opens 3 base and the zerg goes 2 base and makes 6 lings and does damage the terran is very very bad

to get the 3rd base as fast as zerg requires the terran to skip marines.. zerg will do damage

He's one of those zerg players who can play terran at such a high level he doesn't actually need units to win. Like most other zergs on TL actually now that I think about it.... ^_~
keglu
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland485 Posts
December 24 2012 00:35 GMT
#194
On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.

Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.


It seems like you lived in some alternate reality. There was lietrally 5 games with amss ghost on pro level mos of them with MVP defeating inferior players but somehow every master Terran player was owning Zerg at the same time.

If there was more games just point them out i''ll wait.
Also your last sentence is hilarious.

slytown
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Korea (South)1411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-24 00:37:21
December 24 2012 00:36 GMT
#195
On December 24 2012 09:16 cArn- wrote:
Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)

It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all..


^^^ bump

Something needs to happen to queens. They can keep their creep spread if blizzard makes them cost larvae.

Honestly if we got back to the pre-queen, pre-ghost nerf I think zergs wouldn't have so much trouble considering they know how versatile queens and infestors are at this point.
The best Flash meme ever: http://imgur.com/zquoK
Cutlery
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway565 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-24 00:39:58
December 24 2012 00:39 GMT
#196
I think the point blizzard is making is that they don't want to make korean terrans too strong, nor foreign terrans too weak. So currently foreign terrans suffer in the meta.

Move to korea or wait for hots. I suppose.
Cutlery
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway565 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-24 00:41:59
December 24 2012 00:41 GMT
#197
On December 24 2012 09:36 slytown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 09:16 cArn- wrote:
Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)

It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all..


^^^ bump

Something needs to happen to queens. They can keep their creep spread if blizzard makes them cost larvae.

Honestly if we got back to the pre-queen, pre-ghost nerf I think zergs wouldn't have so much trouble considering they know how versatile queens and infestors are at this point.


If queens cost larvae, you will see a lot more queens more quickly, will you not? And forget about banshee, cause even if the zerg has no queens, he will just pop up to 8 larvae into queens and voilla.. Really think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.
spbelky
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States623 Posts
December 24 2012 00:48 GMT
#198
On December 24 2012 09:35 keglu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:
On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.

Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.


It seems like you lived in some alternate reality. There was lietrally 5 games with amss ghost on pro level mos of them with MVP defeating inferior players but somehow every master Terran player was owning Zerg at the same time.

If there was more games just point them out i''ll wait.
Also your last sentence is hilarious.



The ghost was only overpowered during those games because of maps like shakuras where 2 or 3 PFs completely split the map in half... I'm pretty sure if you give ghosts 45dmg snipes back on a map like Whirlwind, the game would look very very different.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 24 2012 00:48 GMT
#199
On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:
On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:
On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.

Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.


The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now.

What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing.

10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used?

And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports.

ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes

Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane


Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 24 2012 00:51 GMT
#200
On December 24 2012 09:41 Cutlery wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 09:36 slytown wrote:
On December 24 2012 09:16 cArn- wrote:
Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)

It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all..


^^^ bump

Something needs to happen to queens. They can keep their creep spread if blizzard makes them cost larvae.

Honestly if we got back to the pre-queen, pre-ghost nerf I think zergs wouldn't have so much trouble considering they know how versatile queens and infestors are at this point.


If queens cost larvae, you will see a lot more queens more quickly, will you not? And forget about banshee, cause even if the zerg has no queens, he will just pop up to 8 larvae into queens and voilla.. Really think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.


The point is that queen production does absolutely nothing to zerg's drone production. having to spend 8 larva on queens when zerg is probably on 2base/starting to set up 3rd will still be a pretty strong slow down of zerg economy, and make early pressure a worthwhile investment.
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
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