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On December 24 2012 06:50 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution
Snipe was not an extremely obvious problem. We saw mass ghost in like 3 games. Why didn't Blizzard give Zergs the time to try and figure out a solution? And why did Blizzard take so long to do anything at all about the Zerg unit that was (and is) way better at countering everything Terran has than ghosts ever were against Zerg? And why are they being so cautious and incremental now? It's hypocritical.
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The main problem in my opinion is that infestor holds units in place, it allows chain fungals which completely denies terran micro. In HoTS it is a little easier since their fungal has ~.5 second delay before it hits because it is a projectile. But yea definitely, you definitely need to spend your attention wisely against zerg.
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On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
Except ling/bane is still viable in that situation. I've been trying and been seeing pros go back to 2 rax openings but opting not to bunker up. Instead you use the marines to kill off transfered drones. That way u can still build up bio/mech off those two rax and on maps like shakuras and cloud kingdom get a wall off against counters.
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The thing about the attention issue, is that it's always easier to attack than it is to defend. Stephano has famously said that the reason he likes Ultras on many maps vs good terrans, is that lots of drop harass can drive you crazy; especially if you play the imba bl infestor. I'm a low masters zerg and guess what, i'm probably even a slower player than you, and I go muta nearly every game vs terran; and I am lolbad with infestors =)! I assure you it's not easy.
There are some "zerg favored" aspects of the game, at least at the highest level of play I won't deny it, but realistically there are always ways for the better player to win. Remember when Fruitdealer won season 1 gsl?
Anyway I have seen a lot of your casts with Halby and I like the content you guys produce, but guess what? I think, "Less QQ. More Pew Pew" is in order.
I don't mean to be a jerk, you are in fact a lot better than I am likely to be soon, if ever. But as a zerg player I can only say that it isn't as easy as people think. And if you're struggling, try and play better. If players like Polt can make headway, than maybe you can too.
And if you lose? Whatever. Do you REALLY care?
PS: Goody has recently taken games off the likes of Stephano, if he hasn't given up hope neither should you. And if you look at heart of the swarm; Terran has a laughably strong advantage that is blatantly easy to abuse in tvz.
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On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2
Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit.
Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable.
You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ.
It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
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On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
So does ZvZ lol.
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On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either.
no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm.
It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time
its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row.
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On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
no infesters soft counter terran units by holding them in place so they cant split and doing a decent amount of AoE DPs
Ghosts hard countered Zerg T3 by killing every one of them before they could get a single auto-attack off
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On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row.
I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm?
Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf."
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On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf."
hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think)
Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense
you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time
Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player
once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game
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Even if some points are true we shouldn't forget that before the Queen buff the matchup was very very hard for Zerg. I remember many times where we either saw a Terran all-inning the Zerg who hasn't had the chance to scout it somehow or times where Zerg actually had a hard time staying even on bases with the Terran.
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On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game
comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons...
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On December 24 2012 08:16 roym899 wrote:
Even if some points are true we shouldn't forget that before the Queen buff the matchup was very very hard for Zerg. I remember many times where we either saw a Terran all-inning the Zerg who hasn't had the chance to scout it somehow or times where Zerg actually had a hard time staying even on bases with the Terran.
yes,... it was so hard zerg hovered around 51% win in gsl -.-
maybe u mean it was hard to spread creep without making a handful of roaches??? i think that what u meant. now no need units for anything, just queen
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On December 05 2012 11:17 Nebbish wrote:
That being said, keep in mind that the following analysis applies only to the match up at high masters and above. Below that level, improvements to mechanics and basic decision-making skills will yield wins, period.
Couldn't the same thing be said about "high masters and above"? Mkp just made his eu account sometime in the last week and is already top 8 gm with a record of ~130-30 on a server populated with more zergs than the other two races, so whatever balance issues anyone experiences at high masters could be overcome by just being as good as a code s Terran.
+ Show Spoiler +
it's absurd to tell high masters players to, "just get as good as code S Terrans, where the game is balanced" just to beat high masters zerg players, so why is it any different for any other league? I agree with the problems discussed in the op, it just annoys me that balanced is always dismissed below league C because if you were good enough to get to league B the difference in skill would be so great that balance wouldn't matter. If 2 players of equal skill and different races don't have 50-50 shot of beating each other, something is broken or at least worth looking into instead of just dismissed because it didn't happen in x leauge.
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On December 24 2012 08:23 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:16 roym899 wrote:
Even if some points are true we shouldn't forget that before the Queen buff the matchup was very very hard for Zerg. I remember many times where we either saw a Terran all-inning the Zerg who hasn't had the chance to scout it somehow or times where Zerg actually had a hard time staying even on bases with the Terran. yes,... it was so hard zerg hovered around 51% win in gsl -.- maybe u mean it was hard to spread creep without making a handful of roaches??? i think that what u meant. now no need units for anything, just queen
I don't know where you pull these numbers from and they don't even matter to me. The way you talk also implies you are kinda butthurt and it'll be quite hard to talk with you about this in a normal way, but I don't want to let your post remain unanswered: The matchup was quite a bit about predicting and less about skill because it was just impossible for Zerg to either scout reliable for all-in / marco play or just play a solid style which was safe against everything Terran could throw at them. So this results in situations where Zerg just had to guess what the Terran was doing. Ofc they guessed right some times and the games turned out to be balanced but it happened more then only one time that a Terran got a 3rd rediculously fast compared to the Zerg without the fear of anything.
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On December 24 2012 07:22 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:50 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution Snipe was not an extremely obvious problem. We saw mass ghost in like 3 games. Why didn't Blizzard give Zergs the time to try and figure out a solution? And why did Blizzard take so long to do anything at all about the Zerg unit that was (and is) way better at countering everything Terran has than ghosts ever were against Zerg? And why are they being so cautious and incremental now? It's hypocritical.
Okay i play terran and your just being completely biased here. Your not thinking of it from the zerg side. Literally everything they could go, BL, Ultra was countered by ghosts and there was nothing they could do about it. And it wasnt just 3 games it was dozens of games after MVP showcased it. I had a good like 2-3 weeks myself to try it out and I was low masters beating mid masters that were out playing me in the midgame but i just turtled with ghosts in the late game and there was nothing he could do except try and go nydus. My point is that to fix the goddamn problem was not to nerf ghosts to hell it was to make it -25 to massive so you couldnt just kill everything. Because they did what they did ghosts suck against everythin LITERALLY EVERYTHING except spellcasters. Theres no point in going like say ghost first in TvT because you cant snipe marines I mean it lead to interesting builds.
Your post is why people all whine about terrans whining because thats exactly what your doing: whining without having a shred of objectiveness. This is why we cant have good discussions.
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On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons...
Why is it pointless?
They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is.
Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
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5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
Because you cant chain storm an army to death like you can with fungal you can dodge and take minimal damage but if you get fungaled then its just f'd. TvP is pretty fine considering. The problem is because theres BL and Corrupters so its like how do I deal with that when they can fungal my ravens and fungal my marines so that they cant touch their BL and their corruptors can just kill the vikings so easy with the support and its so hard for terran to deal with. TvP is very dynamic, TvZ doesnt feel that way.
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EPT
