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On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard
If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane.
We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard.
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On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:
[quote]
Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard.
ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly
It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes?
were talking pre-snipe nerf
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On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:
[quote]
The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now.
What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing.
10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used?
And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly Show nested quote +It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf
How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all.
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On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes
Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all.
were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines
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On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:
[quote]
Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines
20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army.
Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army.
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On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts
that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens
okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army.
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
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On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes
Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all.
Yeah, and that was actually the problem. You are talking about Marine+Ghost, which makes it sound balanced, because then the only unit that was able to combat mass ghosts - the baneling - can be deployed.
The thing is, the "counter all" was like 5-10 tanks and then just produce ghosts until you win. Nothing could beat that army, as tanks counter banelings and ghosts counter anything else zerg supply for supply extremly well.
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Tanks do "well" against banelings. At some point, however, the supply efficiency of banelings can crush any amount of Terran positioning. At that point, it's about the remax for both. I feel that Zerg can win with the remax, assuming the engagement point was picked correctly.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
Please post a replay of you sniping banelings while splitting marines.
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On December 24 2012 12:24 aksfjh wrote:
Tanks do "well" against banelings. At some point, however, the supply efficiency of banelings can crush any amount of Terran positioning. At that point, it's about the remax for both. I feel that Zerg can win with the remax, assuming the engagement point was picked correctly. your right a large enough force of banelings could overwhelm any terran spot
but since we can only have a max of 400 banelings at a time its not conceivable
in the late game lings and banes become next to useless thats why we transition to ultras and broods
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Please post a replay of you sniping banelings while splitting marines.
Even the top Korean Terrans are not capable of this claim.
This would take a ridiculous amount of apm not humanly possible at the scale described.
Maybe if it was like 5 ghosts 20 marines vrs 10 banes 30 slings. Even then the slings would win.
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arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes???
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agree with you in timing, zerg can beat terran easily in mid game. Ling bane roach all in but terran don't have timing to punish zerg in mid game because Six queen can def everything.
PR.sorry my english is so bad
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On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes???
MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third
but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen
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Whatabout of nerfing friendlyfire or siegetank? Would be huge buff for only tvz (TvT there are not so many melee fights + tvp I dont see it as a problem)
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I feel like the problem that needs to be addressed is not all this timing attack bullshit but the queen its self. It is the best unit the Zerg has. This isn't the Zergs fault but they need a way to deal with early banshee, hellions, void rays, etc. Zerg has REALLY bad anti air options before lair tech except for the queen. Because the queen has to do so many things it has been buffed to be able to do these things, well. It does early anti-air, closes the natural choke, injects, transfuses, defends early aggression and a mass of 6 of them can transfuse each other with good micro you are heavily rewarded. They do too much. I feel like the queen needs a dps nerf and Hydras need to be available at a sooner tech path to fill the Queens dps role. Maybe nerf the damage on fungal. This would allow queens to sit in front and tank damage while infusing each other behind hydras. Zerg would have to micro hydras and queens at same time and would be more fair.
So to recap:
Nerf Queen dps, make it a tanky unit.
Make Hydras available sooner.
Nerf Fungal damage.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings.
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On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings.
the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times?
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On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen
MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win.
that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts
Wait, what? No way in hell with 120 lings and 80 banes lose to 90 marines, there is a unit tester man, go use it. And adding 20 ghosts, they still lose big time.
It's quite obvious you haven't tested any of this stuff so just stop.
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EPT
