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On December 24 2012 13:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:
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How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close. Show nested quote +Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available. queens wont dare engage the banshee you can jsut drop a PDD or go somewhere else to kill creep, as long as you kill the creep at the edge and escape to non-creep the queens cant pursue late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours and the Zerg can get his army over there in time (and if you spread them out there not gonna fungal each marine so unless they have lings the marines get away and even with lings some get away) no Terran i have seen in the last few months has tried anything creative to push back creep they jsut turtle in there base, they dont even do mini push outs to kill creep
rofl what are you talking about. 2-3 Queens will easily take on a banshee even with PDD because there's this funny thing called transfuse-if the raven has enough energy for PDD, there's no way the queens don't have enough for at least 2 transfuses.
late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours
Oh, now you're talking about late game, sorry, i thought when you were mentioning alternatives to hellions killing creep you meant before zerg had enough of an economy to throw away 20 lings to kill a couple of marines.
while the zerg cant be "caught out of position" the Terran can get into a position the Zerg cant engage him in which could mean they lose right there especially if that position is at a crucial base that they cant afford to lose
if the Zerg is not in position to prevent the terran from getting to that position, or it the terran pushs carefully enough and remain in position the entire push Zerg loses, but Terran are too lazy to deny creep and too impatient to slow push even while there maxed and theres no reason to rush
so what happens when Terran are lazy and impatient? the Zerg catchs thema dn they lose
lulz. The only position that terran can get into that zerg can't engage in is if they have multiple bunkers with a wall to prevent ling surrounds and enough tanks to kill 20+ banelings, and this all has to be before broodlords or ultras or infestors with enough energy to throw out 600948523904 infested terrans happens.
You seem to think that Terran can just max out and take a nap while slow pushing-this is such a ridiculous notion I have to wonder if you're being serious. I assume you are aware how strong hive tech techswitches are against terran (if you aren't, then you aren't up to date in the metagame and you should stop talking). If Terran just maxes out and masturbates, then moves forward for 10 seconds, and repeats the cycle, Zerg doesn't even need to techswitch. They can just max out on infestor/BL/Corruptor/Ultra and roll the terran army in seconds-it doesn't matter if it's mech or bio.
Zerg ultimate armies are patently stronger than anything terran can make-there's always a reason to rush, because there's always a time limit on how long Terran can let zerg do anything before they just automatically lose.
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On December 24 2012 13:50 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs  i just love how you smuggled in the 10 medivacs :D:D:D
I explained in my followup post how that's not unrealistic...
If you have 0 medivacs at 20:00+, you're doing it wrong. If you have no tanks, you're doing it wrong. Why the hell would someone go pure marine/ghost? And as I explained, Zergs will have less army supply than T/P counterparts because we need lotsa drones.
But to be honest, I missed the fact that medivacs weren't mentioned earlier. It's a happy accident 
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On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army
If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army.
Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet.
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I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said.
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rofl what are you talking about. 2-3 Queens will easily take on a banshee even with PDD because there's this funny thing called transfuse-if the raven has enough energy for PDD, there's no way the queens don't have enough for at least 2 transfuses.
by the time the queens exhaust the PDD the bnshee will have cleaned up the creep and left it doesnt have to kill the queens its there for denying the creep
Oh, now you're talking about late game, sorry, i thought when you were mentioning alternatives to hellions killing creep you meant before zerg had enough of an economy to throw away 20 lings to kill a couple of marines.
if you send a few marines from outside the zergs vision and focus on the tumours at the outside and get out then the zerg wont have time to react and if you have a medivac to pick the marines up its no risk unless theres mutas on the field
lulz. The only position that terran can get into that zerg can't engage in is if they have multiple bunkers with a wall to prevent ling surrounds and enough tanks to kill 20+ banelings, and this all has to be before broodlords or ultras or infestors with enough energy to throw out 600948523904 infested terrans happens.
they jsut need a good area like the third base on antiga where the Zerg has to run up a ramp through a choke to get to them
if the Terran is properly set up and prepared the Zerg cant engage
You seem to think that Terran can just max out and take a nap while slow pushing-this is such a ridiculous notion I have to wonder if you're being serious. I assume you are aware how strong hive tech techswitches are against terran (if you aren't, then you aren't up to date in the metagame and you should stop talking). If Terran just maxes out and masturbates, then moves forward for 10 seconds, and repeats the cycle, Zerg doesn't even need to techswitch. They can just max out on infestor/BL/Corruptor/Ultra and roll the terran army in seconds-it doesn't matter if it's mech or bio.
thats jsut simply not true your trying to make it sound like its literally impossible for Terran to ever win once hive tech is out
i cant even count how many times ive seen a terran move out before hive tech, before even the threat of hive tech and just walk his army all clumped up across the map then jsut get surrounded and died its embarassing watching these people play like there some AI
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im going to reserve my absolute and final judgement on this issue in the next season of Code S
despite all the odds, we have a terran stacked Code S next season. We shall see how this goes. MVP is no longer prime and is injured and new terran hopes have arrived.
In testing, ive found bio/air (including BC's) or mech/air (including bc's) 200food fully upgraded terran armies with 5-6 HSM's will obliterate any zerg army and lose minimal amounts of food. The big problem is getting such an army is impossible on any map other than metropolis which MVP showed months ago against nerchio and other zergs when he still didnt fall off his horse yet that terran can be extremely powerful on a map where you can defend 5 bases with two chokes with planetaries
but what about standard maps. Is there any way for terran to do that on any map other than metropolis??
We shall see right now in this next code S season, if any of these new terran hopes can reveal something we have not discovered yet.
If they all get obliterated id say the problem is in the fact that zerg has a much easier time reaching their lategame than terran does. Terrans lategame as MVP showed will destroy 200food of pure infestor/broodlord/corrupter/ultralisk in a straight up fight like he did against nerchio, but reaching that army is impossible on any map other than metropolis
I hope all the terrans arent just knocked out quickly by PvT's and TvT's, I hope we get to see many ZvZ's this season.
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Terran is a very unforgiving race, while Zerg can lose their army and remax instant or Toss can warp in in no time. Terran can't do it, and that's the hardest thing about playing T.
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On December 24 2012 13:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close. snipe has 10 range and one shots a baneling (pre-nerf which is what were talking about) hydras have 6 range, take 3 shots to take down a baneling so takes the almost 3 times as long to kill one baneling as a ghost does plus the marines are going to auto gun down some of the banelings you dont have to kill all the banelings before they connext jsut enough so that the fight is completely in your side Show nested quote +Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available. queens wont dare engage the banshee you can jsut drop a PDD or go somewhere else to kill creep, as long as you kill the creep at the edge and escape to non-creep the queens cant pursue late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours and the Zerg can get his army over there in time (and if you spread them out there not gonna fungal each marine so unless they have lings the marines get away and even with lings some get away) no Terran i have seen in the last few months has tried anything creative to push back creep they jsut turtle in there base, they dont even do mini push outs to kill creep
dude.. watch MKP play tvz.. he will try to get aggresive with small amounts of units before he has infastructure up, and guess what? he often gets punished for it with just a round of speedlings and then his 2-2 timing is super weak, or the zerg all ins him. Look at mkp vs life last gsl this happened in like all the games, watch any of keens tvz, or bogus trying to be aggressive with small units, same story.
due to how long it takes to get infastructure up and upgrades, zerg will crush terran small moveouts before 2-2 and when more rax/factorys are up
Terran could do small moveout before cause they had larger armys cause they got more infastructure up before adding a 3rd base, but even 2 base timings are crap now cause by the time they hit the zerg will have reaped the reward of a quick 3rd and have enough units to battle it away taking no damage... forcing fast 3 cc, and with 3 cc u cant get infastrcutre AND upgrades up quick to do small movesouts early...
Play Terran vs zerg and u will see how it is. and now, all the code s terran didnt just become lazy all of a sudden
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On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet.
No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
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On December 24 2012 14:04 vitrotime wrote:
im going to reserve my absolute and final judgement on this issue in the next season of Code S
despite all the odds, we have a terran stacked Code S next season. We shall see how this goes. MVP is no longer prime and is injured and new terran hopes have arrived.
In testing, ive found bio/air (including BC's) or mech/air (including bc's) 200food fully upgraded terran armies with 5-6 HSM's will obliterate any zerg army and lose minimal amounts of food. The big problem is getting such an army is impossible on any map other than metropolis which MVP showed months ago against nerchio and other zergs when he still didnt fall off his horse yet that terran can be extremely powerful on a map where you can defend 5 bases with two chokes with planetaries
but what about standard maps. Is there any way for terran to do that on any map other than metropolis??
We shall see right now in this next code S season, if any of these new terran hopes can reveal something we have not discovered yet.
If they all get obliterated id say the problem is in the fact that zerg has a much easier time reaching their lategame than terran does. Terrans lategame as MVP showed will destroy 200food of pure infestor/broodlord/corrupter/ultralisk in a straight up fight like he did against nerchio, but reaching that army is impossible on any map other than metropolis
I hope all the terrans arent just knocked out quickly by PvT's and TvT's, I hope we get to see many ZvZ's this season.
I agree with this that we should wait till next code s before any changes. I hope we dont get to see that many zvz's this season though :/ Ive had my fill for a while now.
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On December 24 2012 14:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +rofl what are you talking about. 2-3 Queens will easily take on a banshee even with PDD because there's this funny thing called transfuse-if the raven has enough energy for PDD, there's no way the queens don't have enough for at least 2 transfuses. by the time the queens exhaust the PDD the bnshee will have cleaned up the creep and left it doesnt have to kill the queens its there for denying the creep Show nested quote +Oh, now you're talking about late game, sorry, i thought when you were mentioning alternatives to hellions killing creep you meant before zerg had enough of an economy to throw away 20 lings to kill a couple of marines. if you send a few marines from outside the zergs vision and focus on the tumours at the outside and get out then the zerg wont have time to react and if you have a medivac to pick the marines up its no risk unless theres mutas on the field Show nested quote +lulz. The only position that terran can get into that zerg can't engage in is if they have multiple bunkers with a wall to prevent ling surrounds and enough tanks to kill 20+ banelings, and this all has to be before broodlords or ultras or infestors with enough energy to throw out 600948523904 infested terrans happens. they jsut need a good area like the third base on antiga where the Zerg has to run up a ramp through a choke to get to them if the Terran is properly set up and prepared the Zerg cant engage Show nested quote +You seem to think that Terran can just max out and take a nap while slow pushing-this is such a ridiculous notion I have to wonder if you're being serious. I assume you are aware how strong hive tech techswitches are against terran (if you aren't, then you aren't up to date in the metagame and you should stop talking). If Terran just maxes out and masturbates, then moves forward for 10 seconds, and repeats the cycle, Zerg doesn't even need to techswitch. They can just max out on infestor/BL/Corruptor/Ultra and roll the terran army in seconds-it doesn't matter if it's mech or bio. thats jsut simply not true your trying to make it sound like its literally impossible for Terran to ever win once hive tech is out i cant even count how many times ive seen a terran move out before hive tech, before even the threat of hive tech and just walk his army all clumped up across the map then jsut get surrounded and died its embarassing watching these people play like there some AI
1) except queens are always at the edge of creep, durp
2) It doesn't matter if zerg can't engage. Their lategame army is superior, period. Antiga is actually a terrible map for terran after about 15 minutes, because there's nowhere they can safely take a base once zerg gets hive tech and takes control of the middle-as opposed to zerg, because with speedlings they can respond to attacks very quickly, while terran cannot do the same
3) Ever wonder why terrans move out before hive tech? lol. Terran doesn't slowpush anymore because with the queen buff, the boost to early economy means that after about 10 minutes (when zerg gets about 80 drones) they dedicate larva purely to army. The longer you wait, the better zerg gets, so the risk of getting caught unsieged is less than letting zerg abuse the fact that they can build drones for 10 minutes before making units and then power an army just as quickly.
No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
So i can't be upset with balance unless I'm a pro? rofl. That's a dumb argument. Yeah, I could win more games with better mechanics, sure. Doesn't mean that I can't watch games and see how dumb TvZ is and/or how much easier of a time zerg has because they can just build queens and drones and then their hive tech units are way better than the endgame combos that T/P get. If you take that argument, just delete all of the responses (and the thread, actually), and let the pros talk. I'll shut up if you get everyone else that isn't a pro player to as well
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On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
How is that different when diamond zergs claimed ghost snipe was OP back in 2011? I am sure if they were diamond, they can just improve their injects and creep spread and kill diamond terrans before they get enough ghosts out. And I doubt diamond terrans had enough skills to snipe all their banelings effectively.
Obviously, all of us here on these boards can improve our own skills to up our win rates. But that doesn't mean we can't watch pro games and see some issues with the current balance.
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On December 24 2012 13:49 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:43 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:26 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all. the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now Do you even play the game? How do you kill infestors with HSM if you get fungals before you get into range? Return to base to repair? Yes, hellions are fast but it still takes a long time. Bring SCVs? So when speed lings come and you have to kite/run away, the SCV has hellion speed to keep up? It seems that your arguement is that it wasn't the queen buff that made creep spreading much easier. But rather that all the terran progamers just decided to be lazy and lose games (when they make a living off winning said games). Yes, that really makes sense. wether it makes sense or not its happening, Terran can be denying creep in many ways but they dont they just let there hellions die instead of having them shark around denying creep, they jsut turtle in there base and have there units sit on there asses instead of moving out small groups to kill creep they could move out there army carefulyl to the edge of the Zergs creep and push back tons of it and retreat before the Zerg gets there units out (then not only do they have less creep but less droning) they could use drops and banshees and ravens (throw down a few autoturrets and let those kill the tumours) they could ahve a couple vikings safely kill infinity overlords and keep drop paths clear but they NEVER EVER DO they jsut sit in there base and let the Zerg drone as much as he wants and spread creep as far as hes willing, when they send drops they fly right by an overlord when they push they get completely impatient even when theres no timing there trying to hit they play sloppy and get punished then whine
Of course you need to use common sense. It does not make sense that all the terrans just stop doing what YOU claim is super effective. It would be like saying "Korean terrans are just better" back in the GomTvT days. Then why did terrans get nerf and maps changed? We can just go on the premise that Korean terrans are just superior players to Korean zergs and Korean protoss. So the game was balanced, right? Why the changes then?
And all your 'suggestions' seem to point to air as a solution. How many starports do you want the terran to build (banshee, raven, vikings)? Which are all shutdown by muta and infestors. If you did get those air units, your ground army just isn't big enough to fight the ling/bane army (with either mutas or infestors).
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^I agree, if you're talking about spectating pro games, then yes balance talk is worthwhile.
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It's so ironic how the zerg players come and point out player saturation in tournaments. When Zerg was still decent and Terran was solid (around the time of retail), no one ever cited this.
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On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now.
Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game.
TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss.
There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game.
Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix....
He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly...
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This is very true. I especially agree with the attention idea.
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Also, there is a difference between being able to do 1. an imbalanced push that is extremely hard to defend and 2. being able to put pressure on your opponent to get ahead. In TvZ Blizzard first addressed the balance problems, and then, when win rates got close to 50% in months they proceeded and did #2.
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On December 24 2012 16:13 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance. This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now. Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game. TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss. There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game. Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix.... He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly...
It's not pointless because the outcomes of his games are not determined by balance, therefore he shouldn't complain about balance for his own games. Only when mechanics become near optimal do things like decision making and game balance provide the "difference" between players. Until then it's just two players fumbling around with their race, resulting in out of whack army sizes which makes balance a marginal issue.
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Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something.
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EPT
