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On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense.
you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it
Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings
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On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways.
There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it
edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times?
Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it.
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On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways.
There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it
edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times?
Have you tried? Shift queue with snipe isn't like infested terran spamming. Go try and post the replay.
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On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings
lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game.
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On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it.
if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down
lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game.
the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread
terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep
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On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings
??? not sure if u are joking man.
zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all.
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I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split.
For reference:
80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings.
If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim.
I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran.
Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs 
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On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all.
the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep
thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you
terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now
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On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane.
We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard.
ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down Show nested quote +lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep
Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close...
And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close.
Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available. And it doesn't actually take a ton of energy for infestors to kill 1 raven and a banshee. One fungal isn't a lot of energy last i checked-fungal+2 queens can easily kill the raven or banshee before they can escape, and the survivor (if there is one) is useless without the other half. And HSM is a terrible idea, because any zerg worth his beans will split the infestors (which already are big enough that the splash won't kill many), and fungal stops the raven from casting any spells anyways
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On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly
[quote]
were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close.
snipe has 10 range and one shots a baneling (pre-nerf which is what were talking about) hydras have 6 range, take 3 shots to take down a baneling so takes the almost 3 times as long to kill one baneling as a ghost does
plus the marines are going to auto gun down some of the banelings
you dont have to kill all the banelings before they connext jsut enough so that the fight is completely in your side
Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available.
queens wont dare engage the banshee you can jsut drop a PDD or go somewhere else to kill creep, as long as you kill the creep at the edge and escape to non-creep the queens cant pursue
late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours and the Zerg can get his army over there in time (and if you spread them out there not gonna fungal each marine so unless they have lings the marines get away and even with lings some get away)
no Terran i have seen in the last few months has tried anything creative to push back creep they jsut turtle in there base, they dont even do mini push outs to kill creep
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On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs
You do realize 80 marines + 10 medivacs + 20 ghosts is 140 supply, while 120 zerlings + 80 banes is 100.
Get that garbage out of here. A real comparison is the original one of 80 marines + 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings + 80 banes.
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On December 24 2012 13:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close. snipe has 10 range and one shots a baneling (pre-nerf which is what were talking about) hydras have 6 range, take 3 shots to take down a baneling so takes the almost 3 times as long to kill one baneling as a ghost does plus the marines are going to auto gun down some of the banelings you dont have to kill all the banelings before they connext jsut enough so that the fight is completely in your side
Oh, okay, so only about 30-that's way easier to do in 2 secs, no problem
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On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
Except that in no case can a zerg army be, "Caught out of position" and lose the game because of it. Zerg armies unlike Terran, can always run away in one way or another.
TvZ is imbalanced and heavily Zerg favored at all levels, from Code S champion to diamond. You mention dropships, but a good zerg will never let a drop do effective damage with proper overlord placement and hell, a few spine crawlers.
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On December 24 2012 13:32 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs You do realize 80 marines + 10 medivacs + 20 ghosts is 140 supply, while 120 zerlings + 80 banes is 100. Get that garbage out of here. A real comparison is the original one of 80 marines + 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings + 80 banes.
the terran is likely to have sub-60 SCVs because of mules but the Zerg is likely to have upwards of 80-90 drones, add in queens and its likely to have only 100~ supply available for army
even if you add another 20 supply of zerglign/baneling with pro level micro once the banelings are gone stutter step would make the army more then make up for the extra zerglings
Except that in no case can a zerg army be, "Caught out of position" and lose the game because of it. Zerg armies unlike Terran, can always run away in one way or another.
TvZ is imbalanced and heavily Zerg favored at all levels, from Code S champion to diamond. You mention dropships, but a good zerg will never let a drop do effective damage with proper overlord placement and hell, a few spine crawlers.
while the zerg cant be "caught out of position" the Terran can get into a position the Zerg cant engage him in which could mean they lose right there especially if that position is at a crucial base that they cant afford to lose
if the Zerg is not in position to prevent the terran from getting to that position, or it the terran pushs carefully enough and remain in position the entire push Zerg loses, but Terran are too lazy to deny creep and too impatient to slow push even while there maxed and theres no reason to rush
so what happens when Terran are lazy and impatient? the Zerg catchs thema dn they lose
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On December 24 2012 13:32 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs You do realize 80 marines + 10 medivacs + 20 ghosts is 140 supply, while 120 zerlings + 80 banes is 100. Get that garbage out of here. A real comparison is the original one of 80 marines + 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings + 80 banes.
That's a little harsh.
Supply doesn't mean anything. Terran will have way fewer SCVs than Zerg will have drones. Also, every Terran will have medivacs come lategame. Also, banelings are TRIPLE the resources/supply of a marine. I really don't see your point at all. If anything should be compared, it's army values.
And my point still stands that just adding a few tanks makes it so that the Terran really can't lose the fight. +1 tanks just demolish ling/bane, especially the bane.
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On December 24 2012 13:26 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all. the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now
Do you even play the game? How do you kill infestors with HSM if you get fungals before you get into range?
Return to base to repair? Yes, hellions are fast but it still takes a long time. Bring SCVs? So when speed lings come and you have to kite/run away, the SCV has hellion speed to keep up?
It seems that your arguement is that it wasn't the queen buff that made creep spreading much easier. But rather that all the terran progamers just decided to be lazy and lose games (when they make a living off winning said games). Yes, that really makes sense.
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On December 24 2012 13:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:26 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all. the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now Do you even play the game? How do you kill infestors with HSM if you get fungals before you get into range? Return to base to repair? Yes, hellions are fast but it still takes a long time. Bring SCVs? So when speed lings come and you have to kite/run away, the SCV has hellion speed to keep up? It seems that your arguement is that it wasn't the queen buff that made creep spreading much easier. But rather that all the terran progamers just decided to be lazy and lose games (when they make a living off winning said games). Yes, that really makes sense.
wether it makes sense or not its happening, Terran can be denying creep in many ways but they dont they just let there hellions die instead of having them shark around denying creep, they jsut turtle in there base and have there units sit on there asses instead of moving out small groups to kill creep
they could move out there army carefulyl to the edge of the Zergs creep and push back tons of it and retreat before the Zerg gets there units out (then not only do they have less creep but less droning) they could use drops and banshees and ravens (throw down a few autoturrets and let those kill the tumours) they could ahve a couple vikings safely kill infinity overlords and keep drop paths clear
but they NEVER EVER DO
they jsut sit in there base and let the Zerg drone as much as he wants and spread creep as far as hes willing, when they send drops they fly right by an overlord when they push they get completely impatient even when theres no timing there trying to hit they play sloppy and get punished then whine
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Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements.
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On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs
i just love how you smuggled in the 10 medivacs :D:D:D
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On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements.
people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army
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EPT
