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On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something.
I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game.
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Nebbish - Awesome post, always nice to see thoughtful observations on the sensitive issue of balance. A few thoughts of my own in response:
1. Since your OP, the evidence that zergs are OP has become impossible to ignore:
-At Homestory Cup VI we had the ignominy of an all-zerg semifinals. Zerg match win% = 71.9% [source]
-At GSL Blizzard Cup, all 5 zergs placed in the top 6. Zerg win% = 73.3% (!!!)
-IPL5, which you mentioned, had zerg win% of 61.2%. TvZ win% was an abysmal 35.1%. 6 of the top8 were zerg, including zvz finals.
-Zerg competitive win%, last 31 days: 59.4% [source]
That is 3 of the last 4 premier tournaments. By any metric, competitive SC2 is significantly out of balance. At this point it's quite possible that even zergs are getting tired of playing zvz's, which is arguably the most gruelling SC2 matchup (200/200 infestor/BL v. infestor/BL anyone?)
2. As you correctly observed, recent infestor nerfs would not be enough. You could say it had the same impact on zerg performance as a bug hitting a speeding freight train.
3. HotS comes out in 3 months and will completely reset the metagame, as we have seen in the HotS beta. It will take time to shake out, but like Mitt Romney's etch-a-sketch, it will be a clean slate. You could argue that we can wait till then, but IMO Blizzard needs to act now as the game balance is too far off-axis to leave for 3 more months.
4. PvT seems well-balanced ATM. It is ZvT and ZvP that currently are imbalanced. Therefore it makes sense to leave P and T alone, and focus on nerfing zerg back into balance with the other two. In both cases, as has been clearly identified, infestors are a key problem, making zerg late-game overwhelming.
Infestor/BL is almost impossible to stop in the hands of competent players. In PvZ everyone has been focused on "imba" immortal all-in: well in the GSL Blizzard Cup finals we got to witness the "unbeatable" immortal all-in from the current best toss in the world, and world champion, Parting, take on Life. The result? Life defeated Parting's immortal all-in 2/3 times while Parting was never able to find an answer Life's late-game zerg macro. If Parting is unable to answer infestor/BL, who can?
5. Zerg late-game dominance has another more subtle effect that is contributing to current zerg superiority. Everyone knows gas and minerals are SC2 resources, but SC2 has other resources too. You mentioned attention, which is another resource, which you may be able to express as APM. There is also another resource: time. Since zergs know their lategame is so good, instead of attacking and making timing pushes, many zergs just choose to sit back, turtle, and macro, because they know eventually they will win. They trade units (res) for time, stalling until they assemble an unstoppable infestor/BL swarm. Conversely protoss and terran are forced into making risky timing pushes which may otherwise be suboptimal because they know their late-game chances are so poor. Once zergs realized time was on their side, it has pushed many of their matchups over the edge.
6. The solution seems simple: nerf infestors further, and possibly BL as well, to bring zerg back into equilibrium with the other races. Perhaps it would be wise to apply the HotS fungal growth change to a missile attack to try and arrest zerg lategame superiority. Zerg OP late-game is currently at the root of SC2's imbalance and attacking it directly is the only sensible way to restore balance.
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On December 24 2012 13:54 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:50 Greenei wrote:On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs  i just love how you smuggled in the 10 medivacs :D:D:D I explained in my followup post how that's not unrealistic... If you have 0 medivacs at 20:00+, you're doing it wrong. If you have no tanks, you're doing it wrong. Why the hell would someone go pure marine/ghost? And as I explained, Zergs will have less army supply than T/P counterparts because we need lotsa drones. But to be honest, I missed the fact that medivacs weren't mentioned earlier. It's a happy accident 
Mostly because that's 100 army supply against 140 army supply and 9000 minerals/3000 gas vs 7000/2000 (withouth speaking of the logistics needed to get 20 ghosts lol) , and you are not using infestors to connect the banelings. Good try tho.
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On December 24 2012 13:57 tenklavir wrote:
I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said.
I had previously considered avilo the king of the apologists, but clearly we have someone new on the throne. I've never seen anything more shameless.
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On December 24 2012 16:34 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:13 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance. This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now. Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game. TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss. There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game. Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix.... He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly... It's not pointless because the outcomes of his games are not determined by balance, therefore he shouldn't complain about balance for his own games. Only when mechanics become near optimal do things like decision making and game balance provide the "difference" between players. Until then it's just two players fumbling around with their race, resulting in out of whack army sizes which makes balance a marginal issue.
Uh, yes they are? I'm playing people at the same skill level as me (aka we make the same number of mistakes). Just because it's a lower level of equal doesn't mean balance doesn't affect it...
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Its amazing to see Zergs defend themselves....OP did a really great job pointing out the imbalance...he even prepared evidence for it!
Just accept it Zergs, especially that Forikorder guy, saying Terrans are too lazy to clean creep. Is he saying Code S Korean Terrans are "lazy" ? They play this game for a living for God sake.
Curious to see how far Zergs will defend themselves when the odds are obviously and clearly against them
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On December 24 2012 18:58 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 17:48 forsooth wrote:On December 24 2012 13:57 tenklavir wrote:
I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said. I had previously considered avilo the king of the apologists, but clearly we have someone new on the throne. I've never seen anything more shameless. It's cute that you consider them apologists, but can you point flaws in their reasoning?
It's apparent in the quote. Notably that Terrans aren't stopping creep because they're lazy, raven+banshee is necessary to stop creep and a small group of marines can clear out all the creep before getting taken out.
Forikorder is one of the most delusional apologists that I've ever read on this site. Go back and read some of the things he has said in this thread. Basically Code S Terrans would be fine if they did what he says.
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On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game.
Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame).
Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround.
If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive.
Edit: I've said it here before, but terran needs something that can combat both bls and ultras decently. It also needs to fit in with bio mech decently. Ghosts are imo the best option due to infrastructure requirement and because snipe is only usable vs zlots/ht in TvP(and in TvT, even though I never went ghosts and got slaughtered a few times vs it, it was fun/interesting build not OP). Buffing vikings fx. would effect TvP a lot. So yer, I'd personally like to see a ghost buff or a straight up bl/infestor nerf.
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On December 24 2012 18:58 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 17:48 forsooth wrote:On December 24 2012 13:57 tenklavir wrote:
I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said. I had previously considered avilo the king of the apologists, but clearly we have someone new on the throne. I've never seen anything more shameless. It's cute that you consider them apologists, but can you point flaws in their reasoning?
Read his posts throughout the thread yourself. If you're still wondering after that, I have no reason to discuss anything with you.
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On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive.
Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army.
Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
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On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
Roaches mate, ghosts are totally useless against them. Large swells of pretty much any cheap unit can overwhelm ghosts.
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I don't get people who mention how strong ghosts were. Are ghosts still too strong? No? Than what does it have with this discussion, you know, the one that is about the TvZ of today?
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On December 24 2012 16:34 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:13 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance. This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now. Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game. TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss. There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game. Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix.... He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly... It's not pointless because the outcomes of his games are not determined by balance, therefore he shouldn't complain about balance for his own games. Only when mechanics become near optimal do things like decision making and game balance provide the "difference" between players. Until then it's just two players fumbling around with their race, resulting in out of whack army sizes which makes balance a marginal issue.
It is pointless because no one can play perfectly. We all play people of similar skill levels and balance affects us all, only thing that can be argued is how much. You can basically always pull mechanics, macro, micro, positioning, army composition, upgrades or any other mistake for someone's loss. It is more about who is allowed more mistakes and whose mistakes cost more. Because both players being equal in skill, this will have an impact.
Imagine this experiment:
1. Blizzard introduces auto larva inject.
2. All zergs now have perfect injects. Zergs becomes too strong as a result.
3. Blizzard nerfs zerg units to account for the increase in production.
4. Blizzard removes auto larva inject.
Is zerg now up or we should just say: their mechanics are not good enough, work on your injects and you will win more games. Gold terrans suddenly teaching Code S level zergs how to play etc. Code S zergs would probably adapt eventually but for anyone below the game would become much harder and much less enjoyable. This is what happens when a race has very high skill ceiling.
Because that is what some zergs are doing.
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On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
I must've missed that. We're talking about vikings here, allining before they are out, dropping and never engaging the army or maybe just outplaying the zerg, how can terran counter bl/inf/corr?
And I'm not saying go back to 45 dmg snipe, like I've said earlier in the thread, I'd have liked to see fx. 45 dmg -10 vs massive. That takes 7/15 snipes vs bl/ultra up from 6/12. Will the BLs still fall? Probably in most cases, but the remax of the zerg is a lot stronger as more dmg has been taken by the terran and less snipes are around against ultras(aswell as they take more snipes) charging in with the sling/bling behind them.
PS. Those "few"(up to 30 supply is hardly few) tanks would have to unsiege in the BL/ghost war, as else the ghosts just get massacred. There fx zergs could add in blings to just brute force the ghosts down. Speaking from experience, if the ghost army goes down once(and even just gets dmg'd decently) it is really hard to get it back up and running, mostly due to time rather than min/gas.
On December 24 2012 20:01 Qwerty85 wrote:
I don't get people who mention how strong ghosts were. Are ghosts still too strong? No? Than what does it have with this discussion, you know, the one that is about the TvZ of today?
Well I'm trying to discuss why not to revert the nerf a bit, so it's not relevant as to current state, but rather as a possible fix to infestor/bl.
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On December 24 2012 19:46 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s) Roaches mate, ghosts are totally useless against them. Large swells of pretty much any cheap unit can overwhelm ghosts.
Roaches are one of the worst units to combat mass ghost with prenerf snipe... You basically attack with the most supplyinefficient unit in the game into the unit with the highest anti-bio damage output.
There are like 3ways to beat those roaches:
1) actually use snipe on roaches. 1roach = 4snipes, so you can kill 2roaches per ghost. Yeah, if you are not a proplayer, you will take some losses - but you will come out victorious
2) snipe all overseers, cloak, a-move
3) Siege your 5-10tanks
Sorry, but ghosts on a-move beat zerglings, hydras, mutas, ITs (ofc snipe makes them extremely more efficient as well)
Ultralisk, Broodlord, Corruptor, Roach, Infestor all got hardcountered by snipe
Leaves the baneling. Which requires a good tank ratio. That's it.
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On December 24 2012 20:12 Big J wrote:
Sorry, but ghosts on a-move beat zerglings, hydras, mutas, ITs (ofc snipe makes them extremely more efficient as well)
Ultralisk, Broodlord, Corruptor, Roach, Infestor all got hardcountered by snipe
Leaves the baneling. Which requires a good tank ratio. That's it.
Your post gave me cancer. At gold league, maybe.
At masters+ ling bling infestor brood lord will DESTROY ghosts even if snipe was +70 dmg. You need planetaries, you need many tanks to stop the imbafestor from landing a fungal.
User was warned for this post
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I just feel like every complain about imbalance, whether it's zerg having too many drones too easily, too many infestors, too much power in midgame eventually leads back to the queen buff that gave them the ability to freely get 3 bases without ever being able to die to an all in. I believe that infestor nerf will not solve the current situation as much as a reversal of queen buff would. Zergs get that many infestors because they have the gas count BECAUSE they were able to get free base with queens, it's not surprising. I never understood why blizzard had to change at that point in time, a balanced, yet dynamic matchup.
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On December 24 2012 20:11 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s) I must've missed that. We're talking about vikings here, allining before they are out, dropping and never engaging the army or maybe just outplaying the zerg, how can terran counter bl/inf/corr? And I'm not saying go back to 45 dmg snipe, like I've said earlier in the thread, I'd have liked to see fx. 45 dmg -10 vs massive. That takes 7/15 snipes vs bl/ultra up from 6/12. Will the BLs still fall? Probably in most cases, but the remax of the zerg is a lot stronger as more dmg has been taken by the terran and less snipes are around against ultras(aswell as they take more snipes) charging in with the sling/bling behind them. PS. Those "few"(up to 30 supply is hardly few) tanks would have to unsiege in the BL/ghost war, as else the ghosts just get massacred. There fx zergs could add in blings to just brute force the ghosts down. Speaking from experience, if the ghost army goes down once(and even just gets dmg'd decently) it is really hard to get it back up and running, mostly due to time rather than min/gas. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 20:01 Qwerty85 wrote:
I don't get people who mention how strong ghosts were. Are ghosts still too strong? No? Than what does it have with this discussion, you know, the one that is about the TvZ of today? Well I'm trying to discuss why not to revert the nerf a bit, so it's not relevant as to current state, but rather as a possible fix to infestor/bl.
BC, Raven, Viking.
Tank splash is only 25-50% of 35-44(minus 0-3)damage, ghosts have 100HP. You probably won't lose more than 10ghosts, while sniping 10BLs... quite a great deal. I guess, adding some medivacs and some vikings (so he can't use BLs without Corruptor, so his antighost army is even weaker) would still be a good idea, but meh... whatever, win is win...
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Well, i cant comment on gameplay because i'm not master. But i can comment on statistics because statistics don't lie. On topnotch level, zerg seems too powerfull with a winratio that clearly indentifies the imbalance between races in different stages the game. For me as spectator, its gettin a bit boring watching zerg and im guessing that viewercounts could be less because of the predictability of the game.
2nd, i dont like to nerf races. I rather see other races get stronger. This because u don't get negative feedback and whining of the nerfed race. So blizzard, if ya want to change the game, give the other races better balanced unitcompositions againt the zerg.
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