EPTI currently agree and believe the main problem is how unforgivable Terran currently is and the fact that it is difficult to punish Zerg greed.
TvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 18
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Aoxer
44 Posts
I currently agree and believe the main problem is how unforgivable Terran currently is and the fact that it is difficult to punish Zerg greed. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote: I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
Blizzard has really lost creativity with the caster units. I hope HOTS will help that somewhat. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8302 Posts
On December 25 2012 00:14 Fullback wrote: An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting. Would have to be an upgrade at the armory that you need fusion core for I think. Like, as late game as it gets. Still, it's an idea. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
There are way too many problems with Terran, let alone the TvZ matchup. It's impossible to balance after Blizzard rushed WoL into production and said "hey, your predecessor was awesome for esports, this brand new game must be good for esports too!" And because of that pressure with a brand new game, they balanced it using a MOBA approach (multiple patches in a short time span) rather than a true RTS approach where you take your time and carefully think out the implications of every change and their combined effects. Blizz completely fucked up the balance of this game. There is no one problem, and there is no one solution. Now, almost 2 years later, after multiple patches, you expect Blizzard to clean up this mess? There are way too many variables, too many permutations and combinations to calculate in order to fix this game. All of these proposals are what Blizzard should've thought of instead of haphazardly using the nerf gun after every major event. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote: If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On December 25 2012 01:26 TheDougler wrote: Would have to be an upgrade at the armory that you need fusion core for I think. Like, as late game as it gets. Still, it's an idea. A lot of the campaign stuff would be very interesting to see in multiplayer, within reason. Just having upgrades in fusion core, infestation pit or fleet beacon seems pretty awesome in itself. | ||
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gosublade
632 Posts
On December 24 2012 23:39 Plansix wrote: From what DB has said in interviews, they tried turning it into a slow and it had minimal effect because chaining the fungles together was still possible. That is the real issue with fungle growth, that it is possible to chain fungles together, the root only makes that more possible. Storm, which does far more damage, is less of a problem because units can avoid it, but no battle lasts long enough for someone to chain storms on a specific location and players actively dodge storms. I don’t know if a projectile will solve the problem, because the root still exists and any unit hit by the fungle is still rooted. I would rather they focus on the root and maybe make it shorter than length of fungle. If the root was 2 or 1 second, it would allow the units to escape before the next fungle was chained. At one second or less, the root would serve more to chance out the units previous action, rather than stop it is place forever. In short, if fungle is going to stop unit movement, units need to be able to move again before the next fungle can be applied. Fungle as a half a second interrupt is far more intresting than fungle as a 4 second root. First of all, dropships and dropping would have a semi-decent chance of getting away, as apposed to 0 chance right now. 1 dropship filled with mm and losing it is np, but wanting to drop with 2-3 medivacs filled, and then possibly losing all of them because of a silly spell and being able to do nothing about it is hard to get on board with. When sieging zerg expo or 3rd and fungaled, you run back enough with rines into siege line(rines are like insanely fast with stim), you either stop getting chain fungaled, infestors are gonna get tank shots or zerg is gonna have to fight out of position. You can also split more, which means infs need to use more fungals to get all rines. Can't imagine it not having a semi-big style change in the long run.. | ||
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Robotix
United States51 Posts
On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote: Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. As far as I know, you can't bind anything to the center mouse button scroll unless you use a hack. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
zergs too easy and terrans too hard, infestors are too good for their cost and skills, larvae mechanics make tech switches hard to kill, creep makes zergs too mobile, smart AI is better for zerg than for terran...etc etc etc Funny cause when the game first came out Terran was the "easiest" and Zerg much harder. I think blizzard failed to anticipate how much better Zerg players would get once they figured out all the queen mechanics, quit missing injects, etc. All races are tough to play, Zerg isn't easy and Terran isn't all the sudden much harder. Terran just lacks the late game tools. People demanded longer macro games, now they got that and are unhappy with the result. What people do need to realize is that it is a pretty razor thin edge with the infestor. If they nerf to much Zerg all the sudden cant compete late game. That's the problem with 1 unit being so critical. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 25 2012 01:16 Ordien wrote: I completly agree with this. What the queen patch has really done, is giving zerg the ability to spread creep (almost) as far as they like. And pushing onto creep as terran is pretty much suicide since you rely on tanks so much. So terrans really need to stay on top of clearing out zergs creep every chance they get, and if they fail to do so they wont have the ability to end the game after having won a huge engagement. Simply because creep is in the way of them The funny thing is. Hellions never really denied creep if the zerg didn't want them to. The zerg could always throw down a roach warren and make 3-4 roaches which would easily hold off 8 hellions. Why didn't they do this? Because it slowed their eco and tech. 5 drones (1 for roach warren) and resources is huge in the early game. This is the same reason why zergs suggesting that terrans can use the banshee/raven combo for creep clearing. They don't take into account that the terran would have to delay medivacs (less energy built up), make an extra tech lab, delay tech/upgrades in order to get them out. RTS is all about trade offs. It is just not feasible for terrans because you get way behind on everything else just to deny creep. Not to mention banshee + raven (with PDD) would be available way after 4 hellions. So please, when you theorycraft and said this player should have X number of Y units. Please also suggest which unit they shouldn't have build (equal resources and build time) and also that if they didn't build those units, would they be vulnerable to a timing / pressure from the opposition. For example, let say in TvP, you say that T would have won if you had 5 BCs in his army. Then you need to take out X medivacs/vikings. Also, when making the 5 BCs (without those medivacs and vikings), how would they hold off a push from the P. | ||
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HoLe
Canada183 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:20 DaNkS wrote: this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff What is this sage? You read the entire post/ analysis in three minutes? "This is" -- are you talking about the post you may have partially skimmed? sagesagesagesagesage The OP was really indepth and I agree with most points, I found the attention-as-resource section refreshing because that idea never gets enough *cough* attention  | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 25 2012 02:08 FLuE wrote: Funny cause when the game first came out Terran was the "easiest" and Zerg much harder. I think blizzard failed to anticipate how much better Zerg players would get once they figured out all the queen mechanics, quit missing injects, etc. All races are tough to play, Zerg isn't easy and Terran isn't all the sudden much harder. Terran just lacks the late game tools. People demanded longer macro games, now they got that and are unhappy with the result. What people do need to realize is that it is a pretty razor thin edge with the infestor. If they nerf to much Zerg all the sudden cant compete late game. That's the problem with 1 unit being so critical. Maps also play a big factor. They are so big now that zerg can start adding units when they see terrans leave their base. OLs are also given 'free' spots to park which sees pretty much everything. You will notice that players like MKP get called out for playing 'blind' and not scouting (with P as well). But how often do you hear that a zerg didn't scout the Terran? Why? Because a lot of the maps have 'safe' spots where you can park OLs and it is not possible to deny scouting until at least vikings are out. And these safe spots give a great view of the entrance to the natural (when army is moving out) and also gases/expansion timings. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
This game is not nearly as hard as BW in the macro department, it doesn't take any skill to sit on your ass and just focus 100 percent on base management. I believe the intention for SC2 was for everyone to be fighting very very early on and only the most evenly matched opponents would actually make it to the mid or late game. This game is boring to play AND to watch, way to go balance team. My point is, nerfing the infestor won't fix the actual problem with this game and this match up, all the build orders that this game was originally balanced around have been nerfed or removed. It's a mess and hopefully they've learned from their mistakes and don't repeat them with HoTS. Edit: Yes I do know this will piss David Kim and his balance team off but idc, I don't play this game anymore, you can't harass me on the ladder now :D. I've moved onto LoL and Dota 2. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On December 25 2012 01:33 imBLIND wrote: Zergs too easy and terrans too hard, infestors are too good for their cost and skills, larvae mechanics make tech switches hard to kill, creep makes zergs too mobile, smart AI is better for zerg than for terran...etc etc etc There are way too many problems with Terran, let alone the TvZ matchup. It's impossible to balance after Blizzard rushed WoL into production and said "hey, your predecessor was awesome for esports, this brand new game must be good for esports too!" And because of that pressure with a brand new game, they balanced it using a MOBA approach (multiple patches in a short time span) rather than a true RTS approach where you take your time and carefully think out the implications of every change and their combined effects. Blizz completely fucked up the balance of this game. There is no one problem, and there is no one solution. Now, almost 2 years later, after multiple patches, you expect Blizzard to clean up this mess? There are way too many variables, too many permutations and combinations to calculate in order to fix this game. All of these proposals are what Blizzard should've thought of instead of haphazardly using the nerf gun after every major event. I agree with this. | ||
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3xTr4_FragQuenz
36 Posts
I share your opinion and i think you did a very good job showing some problems with the balance. However, i hope Blizzard is working enough on these problems and lets hope HotS will bring some new hope for terrans  | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote: Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race. Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros? | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote: Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros? Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT (very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive? Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. | ||
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