EPTTvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 19
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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mememolly
4765 Posts
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ColtraneL
France248 Posts
On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote: Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT (very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive? Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. Too much hypocrisy in your post. I've loved the way the meta evolved by giving +2 range to queen while nerfing terran. Since then, no terran has actually been really successful for a decent amount of time at the top level while you see a ton of zergs winning. I agree that whining right after a patch is not the best, but it is understandable that people are not pleased with the current state of the game. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 25 2012 03:58 Scrubwave wrote: Oh, so you'd be in favour of Blizzard bringing back 5rax reaper so zerg players could figure it out? No because that analogy doesn't work. As any intelligent person would clearly see, back then the game still needed some radical fixes to things like roaches and reaper/bunker combos. 2-3 years later though, the game is starting to look closer to balanced than it was back then so we're moving in the right direction. The whining that goes on lately is just laughable though. I don't even get gg anymore at the end of games, I get bm'd if I happened to random Zerg that time. Sorry guys but Zerg just isn't that easy or you would all have switched to Z and been top GMs getting paid to play this game by now. Too much hypocrisy in your post You better go learn what hypocrisy means before you embarrass yourself through misusing it again. However I can see why at the top level its becoming stale, with HotS coming out soon all this will be completely over-written and its pointless to spread such a bad mentality with misinformation like this. Even if a handful of you are really here just about the pro scene, there's 10 for every 1 of you who uses this kind of reasoning or thread to make themselves feel better about ladder and how they don't have to worry about their "good or GM level macro/micro" because Z is just OP or something ridiculous. There's no reasonable person out there who wouldn't see this kind of racial hate-mongering as positive or good. | ||
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mememolly
4765 Posts
On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote: Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros? most people are using this as a balance whine and to make themselves feel better about losses on ladder | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
Blizzard can't decide it seems which they want, bouncing back and forth between the two. The community can't seem to decide either, they hate short games and want macro games but now all these long macro games on big maps are boring. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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Dr.Sin
Canada1126 Posts
On December 25 2012 01:04 Exells wrote: This is imo a great idea, but i'm a little scared of the implication in late game TvP. Because 2xghosts production ... You bring up a good question regarding double ghost production. I think for TvP it would not be such a huge issue as Terrans already have marauder heavy armies, so their bases are already geared towards supporting ghost production. If you have 6 barracks with tech labs, just pumping ghosts 6 at a time requires a tremendous investment. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:00 mememolly wrote: Terrans haven't even tried to figure stuff out yet, I still see Terrans not building ravens to counter the burrowed infestor etc, Terrans should at least try and figure stuff out before screaming for a nerf Holy shit, is this guy for real? Reading this hurts my brain. | ||
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Armore
Finland6 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:00 mememolly wrote: Terrans haven't even tried to figure stuff out yet, I still see Terrans not building ravens to counter the burrowed infestor etc, Terrans should at least try and figure stuff out before screaming for a nerf You're obviously trolling, but this comment is automatically nullified by the fact that zerg was massively buffed for no reason (queen range to 5 while TvZ winrates were 50-50). I remember zergs like idra "screaming for a nerf" back then. OL speed was a great and resonable buff, queen range was not. Just to point something out: When was the last time you saw zergs go for drop play against terran? I'd like to see that sometime. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote: Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT (very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive? Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. Any intelligent person can look at the game now and tell you that it's broken. I've had plenty of time playing with all 3 races. It took me much longer to get to Masters with Terran than it did for me to get there with Protoss or Zerg, Zerg being the easiest. We don't all switch to Zerg because if we did, the game would always be ZvZzzzz. That's extremely boring. No, GM players are still only the top 200 players on each server, not all of us could possibly be GM players just by switching to Zerg. And yes, you're right - the metagame is exciting to watch when it's developed by players. But those of us who are not happy with the patch don't enjoy it when Blizzard decides to develop the metagame for us in a way that breaks the game. Pre-queen and ovie patch, the metagame was developing just fine. Post-queen and ovie patch, it's been broken. And changing the amount of HP on infested terran eggs and the up-front cost of upgrading Seeker missles does not do anything to fix the problems that Blizzard created by destroying the metagame. Maybe if you'd realize we're not "whining" and are simply "suggesting" how to make the game better, you'd be able to help make Sc2 a better game. Unfortunately, complaining about the suggestions of others isn't getting us anywhere. If you're going to consider these types of threads from Terran and Protoss to be "whining", please remember that it was the Zerg "whining" of low level players that convinced Blizzard to break their previously balanced game in the first place. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:11 Scrubwave wrote: What makes you think there's no needs for radical fixes now? HotS being right around the corner makes me think us asking for radical fixes won't matter at all once the balance no doubt shifts as new strategies and metagames emerge from the new additions. Maybe if you'd realize we're not "whining" and are simply "suggesting" how to make the game better, you'd be able to help make Sc2 a better game You might not be, but don't say "we" like everyone in these threads can be lumped with you. The vast majority of people in here are just using this latest trend as an excuse for their own mistakes claiming they're "perfect" except Z just OP. Unlike most people in here though, I know a lot of pros and semi-pros as well as a good number of connections within the SC organizations. I'll tell you right now from actually being in some of the pro houses and whatnot that they're too busy coming up with ways to deal with things to sit and complain about how they're a better player but lost because of balance. Also almost everyone at pro level shares my sentiments on it being pointless to even so much as mention WoL balance when HotS is just about out. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote: Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote: But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. | ||
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Trussetyv69
93 Posts
For starters.their own tournament sported a meager 12.5% Terran representation, none of which made it past the RO16. wtf is this? that's because the other two races are more popular and they just played worse, that has nothing to do with balance, lol, close this thread already. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote: But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? Dude the queen buff wasn't even all they did to make Zerg invincible early game. Here are some of the openers they nerfed for zergs off the top of my head. Made barracks require a depot to build (because proxy rax were killing hatch first, as intended). An extra 5 seconds to rax build time to nerf 11/11 opener. Reaper nerfs galore. Blue flame openers, nerfed. Banshee openers, nerfed (spore root time, queen buff encouraging players to make more of them early game). Also overlord speed buff pretty much killed any sneaky opener potential, also cheaper overseer costs. Stim research time nerfed, because bio timings were too good vs masses of drones (lol). Roach range buff to help vs reactor hellion opener. Snipe nerf, which was primarily because huge squads of ghosts were very strong in the late game vs Zerg, but this was also around the time players like Taeja had discovered a powerful hellion/snipe opener vs Zerg on the kor ladder. Do I need to go on? Since launch, Blizzard has been molding this game to Idra's views because he inspired half the NA player base to be like him. By this I mean, ultra passive mass drone style early game, then finish with brood/infestor late game once you have an absurd economic lead over your opponent. This takes no skill to do in sc2 because macroing is so much easier than in BW, but hey thats what people wanted so thats what they got. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote: The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. Pre Queendralisk you opened with Hellions to control the early creep spread and timing of the 3rd base. It was never about killing queens or drones. That was a bonus you would catch if the zerg made a huge blunder. And making more Hellions now is a very good point. I don't know if you yet realized it, but Hellions are no free unit. And needing to spent more money to get less effect is not quite a viable option for me if the situation was considered fair before (by the vast majority of both Zerg and Terrans) | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:42 AnomalySC2 wrote: Made barracks require a depot to build (because proxy rax were killing hatch first, as intended). An extra 5 seconds to rax build time to nerf 11/11 opener. Reaper nerfs galore. Blue flame openers, nerfed. Banshee openers, nerfed (spore root time, queen buff encouraging players to make more of them early game). Also overlord speed buff pretty much killed any sneaky opener potential, also cheaper overseer costs. Stim research time nerfed, because bio timings were too good vs masses of drones (lol). Roach range buff to help vs reactor hellion opener. Snipe nerf, which was primarily because huge squads of ghosts were very strong in the late game vs Zerg, but this was also around the time players like Taeja had discovered a powerful hellion/snipe opener vs Zerg on the kor ladder. This is funny because they didn't even need to do some of these changes, a map pool with bigger maps would have done much better for the balance of the game back then instead of all these nerfs that are still being felt right now (Mostly centered around the rax / bunker / marine nerfs and how it affects early pressure today) | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote: I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better. At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense. You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech. Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick lmao you better to learn this game a lot better before trying to discuss this with me. The very fact such a ridiculously bad statement from poor or simply incorrect thinking can come to your mind means there must be a huge world of difference between our levels of knowledge with me obviously being on the upper hand. | ||
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