EPTTvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 21
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blobrus
4297 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 25 2012 09:58 Zrana wrote: I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position. This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine. On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit... Zerg has won plenty of games without abusing the late game or greed of Terran. The fact is that Zerg has always had the ability to outplay their opponent at roughly the same level of play. There was some unpleasant volatility in the early game that could cause seemingly "unfair" losses by Zerg, but the numbers worked out balance wise. Now it's blatantly broken. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On December 25 2012 10:05 forsooth wrote: We're still playing WoL, and poor balance has turned the latter half of this year into a ZvZfest. These kind of posts make me realize how much I (still) hate SC2 over BW even though I stopped playing/watching BW entirely. A long long time ago, when siege tanks did a whopping 70 damage with bigger a bigger splash radius, when Goliath had similar range to the Thor but had AA DPS that didn't suck llama testicles, when 3 mini-nukes could be easily deployed for almost free, when a highly mobile caster unit had better defensively potential than the Raven, Zergs and Protosses STILL fucking broke Terran entrenchments through absolutely ARTFUL positioning, micro, unit spread, and drops alongside some very epic spell casting (JANGBI STORMS fuck yah). Granted, spells like stasis, plague, and dark swarm were extremely beneficial and would be totally OP in SC2, but they are the reason why the races were balanced not much unlike the spells of today (fungal, ITs, vortex, etc.). Mutas faced with super OP AOE damage (irradiate), hydra that melted like butter against 2-shotting tank fire and zerglings that died by the dozen to single spider mines... yet, zerg fucking prevailed and broke mech and all of its turtling entrenchments. Nowadays it goes something like this, "Fuck my army melted to DEFENSIVE/SIEGED mech after I 1A'ed! OP! Need something that works with attack-move!" When have we EVER seen a game in SC2 where the zerg/protoss player uses the full extent of siege breaking capabilities at their disposal and still loses? The answer is NEVER. Instead, low-level players complain, and the 1A deathball mechanic prevails for the purpose of "appealing to casual gamers", before giving enough time for people, even pros, to figure out the art of siege breaking properly. Someone PLEASE find that thread on proper siege breaking in PvT for BW and link it to enlighten the new kids in town. | ||
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wptlzkwjd
Canada1240 Posts
On December 25 2012 10:13 blobrus wrote: Honestly this game just isn't even fun to watch anymore. I already know what's going to happen if the game goes beyond about 15 minutes. Same...usually I just stop watching whenever one of the players get overwhelmed. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On December 25 2012 11:42 EngrishTeacher wrote: Someone PLEASE find that thread on proper siege breaking in PvT for BW and link it to enlighten the new kids in town. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=58685 ? well it's more of a PvT push breaker. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 25 2012 11:42 EngrishTeacher wrote: These kind of posts make me realize how much I (still) hate SC2 over BW even though I stopped playing/watching BW entirely. A long long time ago, when siege tanks did a whopping 70 damage with bigger a bigger splash radius, when Goliath had similar range to the Thor but had AA DPS that didn't suck llama testicles, when 3 mini-nukes could be easily deployed for almost free, when a highly mobile caster unit had better defensively potential than the Raven, Zergs and Protosses STILL fucking broke Terran entrenchments through absolutely ARTFUL positioning, micro, unit spread, and drops alongside some very epic spell casting (JANGBI STORMS fuck yah). Granted, spells like stasis, plague, and dark swarm were extremely beneficial and would be totally OP in SC2, but they are the reason why the races were balanced not much unlike the spells of today (fungal, ITs, vortex, etc.). Mutas faced with super OP AOE damage (irradiate), hydra that melted like butter against 2-shotting tank fire and zerglings that died by the dozen to single spider mines... yet, zerg fucking prevailed and broke mech and all of its turtling entrenchments. Nowadays it goes something like this, "Fuck my army melted to DEFENSIVE/SIEGED mech after I 1A'ed! OP! Need something that works with attack-move!" When have we EVER seen a game in SC2 where the zerg/protoss player uses the full extent of siege breaking capabilities at their disposal and still loses? The answer is NEVER. Instead, low-level players complain, and the 1A deathball mechanic prevails for the purpose of "appealing to casual gamers", before giving enough time for people, even pros, to figure out the art of siege breaking properly. Someone PLEASE find that thread on proper siege breaking in PvT for BW and link it to enlighten the new kids in town. We actually have seen some great siege breaking, like in the early days of Stephano domination, leading tank shots with ITs. In some very recent games, we have seen Zerg do some really nice splits and flanking to break a late game front door of Terran. Those are both great and awful moments to see because it shows that mech can be broken with great play. Then the next game you see in the series ends with an infestor/BL combo. | ||
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Voodoo[z]
United States14 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
I dunno about SC2 Zergs but BW zergs have been holding this mentality for a long time. Zerg in SC2 does not feel like Zerg. I mean look at creep mechanics, we're encouraged to stay in our bases which is completely counter-intuitive to a BW Zerg. Same thing with giving us slow immobile shit units that require upgrades just to be viable anywhere other than right in our own bases (roach/hydra). Couple that with BL/Festor which is probably the most immobile composition ever and you have a recipe for pissing Zerg players off. I mean it'd be like trying to play BW with pure Guardian defiler using nothing but plague all the time. That's our lategame option because everything else doesn't scale properly with upgrades and eventually all but pure hive units and a smattering of banes is required. I don't like when people draw the stuff out of proportion so much, as people tend to use these threads and their content to excuse their own mistakes or bad play. Instead chalking things up to balance issues rather than problems with the fundamentals of their own gameplay. Most Zs will tell you we're sick of not getting any rewards for micro (ST_Life is an exception... that guy somehow figured out how to micro lings and get returns but literally nobody can emulate it). The whole reason I played BW at a decent level as Z was because I was fast, I could be aggressive everywhere and still macro back home. Z in SC2 can't do that. We're stoic. Give us better units and better micro returns and you'll see Zergs themselves calling for infestors and BLs to be removed/heavily-modified. Oh, and please give us a freaking mobile powerful lategame option... paper ultras, slow-moving units, and immobility of things like lings other than a not-very-sneaky nydus with terrible damage potential, units that are only able to move on land (dropping lings in bases lategame doesn't work vs turrets/cannons and its incredibly bad cost-wise). I think people who whine from T and P should instead start asking Blizz to modify Zerg as a race and not just the infestor. If you give us a better set of alternatives and creative play, most Zs won't choose BLs or infestors. They don't feel very "Zergy". | ||
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Cababel
United States31 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 25 2012 12:28 Cababel wrote: While most of the points are valid points of argument I do not think that the attention for harassment is a valid argument to make in any way. This is due to both races being able to harass each other in ways that mirror each other. Mutas are mirrored by banshees, ling runbys are mirrored by hellions, the burrowed ling is mirrored by a marine placed to kill a drone sent to expand and the nydus/drop of Zerg is mirrored by the drop of terrans. Both races have advantages with certain types of harass like the burrowed ling taking a scan while the marine does not. Hellions and banshees are able to limit creep while mutas become useless and zerglings become weak at anything except runbyes.Overall because of these reasons harass is equall between the two races and therefor should not be used to support one race or the other. You can't possibly expect people to buy this do you? Mutas are equal to banshees? Yeah with higher speed, greater numbers, greater investment, no cloak surprise possible and the timing at which they can come out is significantly different in the meta. 1-2 cloaked banshees can deal massive damage. 1-2 mutas can not. Also trying to equate the speed and cost-effective damage potential of a nydus worm with the mobility/speed/durability/frequency of medivac drops is also ridiculous. They're not similar unless you go down to the most basic description you'd expect to find in the game manual and those descriptions are pretty vague. Much too vague to be used in any sort of high-level-thinking balance discussions. | ||
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snexwang
Australia224 Posts
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On December 25 2012 12:57 snexwang wrote: The grass is always greener on the other side. SC2 = a desert at this point. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On December 25 2012 12:57 snexwang wrote: The grass is always greener on the other side. Some of us have spent time on both sides of the fence and found one side boring and the other side overly frustrating. | ||
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lonelyPotato
Australia158 Posts
Infestors are pretty unforgiving though... I've seen to many professionals lose to them on a regular basis. | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 25 2012 21:21 cydial wrote: If infestors weren't in the game and TvZ was just mutaling vs marine medivac tank, it'd be balanced. The game however will never be like this. The whole idea behind muta/ling/baneling is to either allin-bust with it or to defend with it until you can transition into Hive-tech... If you couldn't transition out of muta/ling/bling, Terran would simply win once the tank/thor count gets high enough to not lose marines anymore to banelings. | ||
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barwick11
44 Posts
On December 25 2012 06:42 Krakoskk wrote: These infestor changes are retarded...leave that shit for HotS. The infestor is fine as it is, just revert queen range and lovely old beautiful TvZ can return. Geez oh man people... The queen range buff didn't *make* this problem, it did make it worse, but mostly it exposed something most people didn't know, and that's Zerg's invulnerability while they drone, which also made tech more accessible every game rather than games where the opponent chose a passive build. | ||
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barwick11
44 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote: ? If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. Are you serious? Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh... "If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is." Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg. | ||
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SXGCoil
United States341 Posts
It really is proving that most people posting here are low leaguers. | ||
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