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On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better. At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense. You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech.
.........
Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick
And really, how is making four roaches going to make you lose the game (protip: it isn't, and it wasn't even before the queen buff).
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On December 25 2012 05:00 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better. At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense. You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech. ......... Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick And really, how is making four roaches going to make you lose the game (protip: it isn't, and it wasn't even before the queen buff).
Zergs are entitled to 3 bases before any combat units can be made.
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EDIT: oops didn't notice the dates and the number of pages...
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On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:
You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech.
Really? Then why did Nerchio and later Stephano always played this way?
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On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient.
With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands.
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On December 25 2012 04:52 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Made barracks require a depot to build (because proxy rax were killing hatch first, as intended). An extra 5 seconds to rax build time to nerf 11/11 opener. Reaper nerfs galore. Blue flame openers, nerfed. Banshee openers, nerfed (spore root time, queen buff encouraging players to make more of them early game). Also overlord speed buff pretty much killed any sneaky opener potential, also cheaper overseer costs. Stim research time nerfed, because bio timings were too good vs masses of drones (lol). Roach range buff to help vs reactor hellion opener. Snipe nerf, which was primarily because huge squads of ghosts were very strong in the late game vs Zerg, but this was also around the time players like Taeja had discovered a powerful hellion/snipe opener vs Zerg on the kor ladder.
This is funny because they didn't even need to do some of these changes, a map pool with bigger maps would have done much better for the balance of the game back then instead of all these nerfs that are still being felt right now (Mostly centered around the rax / bunker / marine nerfs and how it affects early pressure today)
But I think even that is missing the entire point. Those builds that were nerfed out for being too effective were MEANT to be that effective (the game was balanced around them). People were not supposed to blindly fast expand every single game without worry. Hatching first vs someone proxying some barracks was meant to be almost impossible to hold, but now that they've nerfed anything that punishes blind greed the game has become exponentially more broken. They took fast paced poker and then took out the poker aspect, what we're left with is bewildering.
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These infestor changes are retarded...leave that shit for HotS. The infestor is fine as it is, just revert queen range and lovely old beautiful TvZ can return.
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On December 25 2012 06:42 Krakoskk wrote:
These infestor changes are retarded...leave that shit for HotS. The infestor is fine as it is, just revert queen range and lovely old beautiful TvZ can return.
Not gonna happen. Zergs have gotten it into their heads that if they dont have 3 bases and 70 drones at the 7 min mark then they are completely all in. look at these people arguing that making 3 roaches against Reactor helion would make you lose the game xD Ofc these people dont want nerfs, their race has never ever been more OP
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I feel sorry for terrans. The game has to be changed. And the conclusion writen in the articel clearly shows that the problem won't be taken care off in the near future
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how can someone join the conversation when this has already turned into such hate filled cockfight
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On December 25 2012 08:12 gosublade wrote:
how can someone join the conversation when this has already turned into such hate filled cockfight
They just gotta follow Cloud's advice on how to get a bigger cock 
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On December 25 2012 05:01 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 05:00 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better. At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense. You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech. ......... Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick And really, how is making four roaches going to make you lose the game (protip: it isn't, and it wasn't even before the queen buff). Zergs are entitled to 3 bases before any combat units can be made.
?
If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. We can't drone that expansion before confirming we aren't getting hit with a quick 2 base all in. We can't go "pure drones till 80" against even the most standard hellion/banshee pressure, and none of our all ins should work. I don't see why people are so upset about how behind 6 queens we can take a third against a fast expand build. Seriously, we're investing >1k minerals in static defense and delay our tech by a ton; we should be allowed to take a fucking third. If we couldn't, that would be flawed design.
Anyway, I have to agree with sCCrooked here. Balance makes NO difference unless you're actually at a level where people are getting paid to play the game/perform well at tournaments. And whining about how you're way better than your opponents but still lose because "Zerg IMBA" doesn't accomplish anything except piss of Zerg players and take away from your practice time that you could lose to actually improve at the game.
Sure, the game should be balanced, but there shouldn't be a thread this big where 1/2 of the posts are balance whine, 1/4 are Zergs defending themselves, and 1/4 are Terrans claiming that all Zergs are full of shit. I'm officially done with this thread, only going to stay subscribed to see sCCrooked's responses to you guys. I like this guy and his mindset.
Have a nice day everyone, and Merry Christmas 
Edit:
Not gonna happen. Zergs have gotten it into their heads that if they dont have 3 bases and 70 drones at the 7 min mark then they are completely all in. look at these people arguing that making 3 roaches against Reactor helion would make you lose the game xD Ofc these people dont want nerfs, their race has never ever been more OP
This is the kind of useless post that will get nobody anywhere and does nothing except insult Zerg players. I'd hazard a bet that this guy is in a low league, considering how much inaccuracy is in the post. (Seriously, if someone hits 70 drones at 7 mins send me the replay, I need to fucking learn how to. My high score is ~50, and that's vs a scouted 3OC before rax)
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the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design
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On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
Spot on. The balance whining from zergs for the last years got them the ghost nerf and queen change.
Meanwhile, a unit that was broken as fuck wasn't being used at all, because like the terrans said, zergs were stuck using the same shit.
On December 05 2012 12:53 a176 wrote:All your arguments against zerg are fundamental design aspects of the race. You can't change that. This is how it was even in BW. The only 'timing' you could pull of in BW was an early game marine medic push. The way SC2 itself is designed and played, zerg is in fact http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Sauron_(strategy) . What needs to be absolutely changed are the units. Things like gglords fundamentally breaking siege tanks, by spawning free units on your marines for tanks to kill with FF. And fungal planting units. That is just dumb design.
Interesting. I think changing siege tanks to not shoot broodlings could considerably fix the lategame TvZ.
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On December 25 2012 06:14 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands.
No. Because APM are counted when you click it. In particular, if you queue 100ITs - and then you do nothing and just wait until the Infestors reach the spot and cast 100ITs - you will have 0 APM when they are delivered, even though the Infestors are casting. (but a lot of APM while queing, though hardly anyone will be physically capable of reaching 25clicks per second = 1500APM at that moment)
Some people use those "bind left click to mouse wheel" mouse driver tricks for ITs (and have used them for snipe as well --> one of the first videos about this trick).
On December 25 2012 08:27 Fyy wrote:
the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design
I'm pretty sure I have seen way more (no-Infestor) Mutalisk builds in the past two years, than (no-Marine) Mech builds in TvZ. Hell, we even see Roach (and Roach/Hydra) builds lately.
So I'd say Zerg design is at least godlike compared to "one-and-a-half-trick" Marine/Tank Terran, if you're standard is "core units".
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On December 25 2012 09:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 06:14 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands. No. Because APM are counted when you click it. In particular, if you queue 100ITs - and then you do nothing and just wait until the Infestors reach the spot and cast 100ITs - you will have 0 APM when they are delivered, even though the Infestors are casting. (but a lot of APM while queing, though hardly anyone will be physically capable of reaching 25clicks per second = 1500APM at that moment) Some people use those "bind left click to mouse wheel" mouse driver tricks for ITs (and have used them for snipe as well --> one of the first videos about this trick). Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:27 Fyy wrote:
the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design I'm pretty sure I have seen way more (no-Infestor) Mutalisk builds in the past two years, than (no-Marine) Mech builds in TvZ. Hell, we even see Roach (and Roach/Hydra) builds lately. So I'd say Zerg design is at least godlike compared to "one-and-a-half-trick" Marine/Tank Terran, if you're standard is "core units".
pretty smart to compare infestors with marines, i guess
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On December 25 2012 09:34 Fyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 09:12 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 06:14 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands. No. Because APM are counted when you click it. In particular, if you queue 100ITs - and then you do nothing and just wait until the Infestors reach the spot and cast 100ITs - you will have 0 APM when they are delivered, even though the Infestors are casting. (but a lot of APM while queing, though hardly anyone will be physically capable of reaching 25clicks per second = 1500APM at that moment) Some people use those "bind left click to mouse wheel" mouse driver tricks for ITs (and have used them for snipe as well --> one of the first videos about this trick). On December 25 2012 08:27 Fyy wrote:
the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design I'm pretty sure I have seen way more (no-Infestor) Mutalisk builds in the past two years, than (no-Marine) Mech builds in TvZ. Hell, we even see Roach (and Roach/Hydra) builds lately. So I'd say Zerg design is at least godlike compared to "one-and-a-half-trick" Marine/Tank Terran, if you're standard is "core units". pretty smart so compare infestors with marines, i guess
Not really smart. Just following the definition of "core unit". (which a lot of people keep on mixing up with "low tier unit")
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I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position.
This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine.
On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit...
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On December 25 2012 09:58 Zrana wrote:
I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position.
This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine.
On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit...
We're still playing WoL, and poor balance has turned the latter half of this year into a ZvZfest.
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regardless if you're playing it or not, or that none of us in this thread are pros (except for the few pros that might've posted here)
TvZ/ZvT is really boring to watch and play atm.
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EPT
