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On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
Sure mass ghost was two times stronger. Because of that only MVP used this strategy in few games, on other hand we have way weaker bl/infestor combo used in literally in every non mirror Zerg game giving therm 55-60% winratio in both matchups. Strong logic right here.
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On December 24 2012 20:44 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s) Sure mass ghost was two times stronger. Because of that only MVP used this strategy in few games, on other hand we have way weaker bl/infestor combo used in literally in every non mirror Zerg game giving therm 55-60% winratio in both matchups. Strong logic right here.
I've seen mass ghosts being used 3 or 4 times, all of them by only a single player: MVP. They got nerfed immediately. Zerg has been using BL infestor in all matchups for 9 months with huge success, no nerfs. Crazy.
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Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long.
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i dont understand why they wont change fungal to a slow rather than immobilization.. would change so fucking much wouldnt it?
You can keep spreading to not get additional fungal, chain fungal is harder, escaping with dropships with army intact is still possible.. Just overall, the game would change for the better, create more awesome situations and battles.
edit: psionic being immune to fungal is like the most retarded change ever
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On December 24 2012 21:06 Exells wrote:
Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long.
The problem is just that protoss would then need a nerf in the midgame. Atleast from what I can gather, toss is pretty much in the same situation terran was in before queen buff. Win midgame, loose lategame(generally speaking obviously). PvZ win rates are pretty equal(even toss a bit ahead), so if you're going to make toss and zerg equal lategame(and therefore remove a lopsided win rate time for zerg) you'd need to equal midgame too(removing a lopsided win rate time for toss).
Admittedly Z lategame nerf will cause Z midgame to change since Z has less reason to be as greedy(or possibly require zerg to be more greedy, such as was the effect of the queen buff for terran), but it's hard to say though.
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On December 24 2012 21:28 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 21:06 Exells wrote:
Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long. The problem is just that protoss would then need a nerf in the midgame. Atleast from what I can gather, toss is pretty much in the same situation terran was in before queen buff. Win midgame, loose lategame(generally speaking obviously). PvZ win rates are pretty equal(even toss a bit ahead), so if you're going to make toss and zerg equal lategame(and therefore remove a lopsided win rate time for zerg) you'd need to equal midgame too(removing a lopsided win rate time for toss). Admittedly Z lategame nerf will cause Z midgame to change since Z has less reason to be as greedy(or possibly require zerg to be more greedy, such as was the effect of the queen buff for terran), but it's hard to say though.
Toss winrate are high cause of Immortal/sentry all-in (almost one game out of three). When Zergs gonna find the answer (and they will), winrates gonna fall.
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On December 24 2012 21:28 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 21:06 Exells wrote:
Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long. The problem is just that protoss would then need a nerf in the midgame. Atleast from what I can gather, toss is pretty much in the same situation terran was in before queen buff. Win midgame, loose lategame(generally speaking obviously). PvZ win rates are pretty equal(even toss a bit ahead), so if you're going to make toss and zerg equal lategame(and therefore remove a lopsided win rate time for zerg) you'd need to equal midgame too(removing a lopsided win rate time for toss). Admittedly Z lategame nerf will cause Z midgame to change since Z has less reason to be as greedy(or possibly require zerg to be more greedy, such as was the effect of the queen buff for terran), but it's hard to say though.
No, terran used to be able to do damage with a timing and win in the lategame... now it's more like for terran, lose midgame or lose lategame OR if you're a much better player and you already survived midgame and you don't get unlucky, then you can win lategame.
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Revert Queen range buff, and everything changes back to normal.
The biggest problem with TvZ is creep imo. A lot of you noobs will say "LOL CREEP? Creep can't even attack!" The fact is, the extreme speed and surface area with which creep is able to be spread now makes for incredibly weak early game bio aggression by T.
Every single push by the terran soon after will be slowed by the necessity to clear out the tens, if not hundreds of creep tumors. It's suicide to unsiege while on creep, and leapfrogging tanks takes VERY long. So you have 2 options, clear the creep, or leapfrog.
Both of these options buy what the zerg thrives off of most: Time. The more time the zerg has to prepare for the attack, the more the zerg will crush the attack, the more the zerg will have larva for a follow up counter, etc.
All of this has snowballed because reactor hellion expand no longer can kill off queens, creep.
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Brings up some valid points! Thanks for the post
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I feel TvZ's issues kind of get exaggerated a lot. It's rigged for zerg, I don't think we can argue against that, but I cannot actually point out one particular issue that is THE issue.
When I start thinking about this issue my mind just starts listing everything it hates about Zerg (creep, queens, droooooooooooooooones, nitro pack overlords, infestors having no actual weaknesses only tremendous strengths, their huge amount of viable builds many of which just get to build order win you, late game and all that entails and how easy it is to fall massively behind from something small slipping by and yet it never feels like I can do the same to them) but I cannot come to a conclusive 'this is what needs to be fixed' without feeling like most of these issues aren't so bad in themselves and that as soon as you change any one of them the rest don't seem so bad.
So just nerf all of them because I'm a super selfish terran who wants to see the glory days of GomTvT return, obviously.
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1. Bring Queen range down to 3,5.
2. Make Fungal a projectile
1: You can still make 6 queens, now you just have to actually micro them to stop hellions. I don't think anyone likes the fact that the creep-spreading injecting unit is also a spine-crawler. This change shouldn't affect PvZ or ZvZ too much, since the queen is rarely used for ground defense.
2: The projectile is really cool in hots beta, and I think making fungal a projectile would make for more interesting games, both for the viewers and the players as well. It would raise the skill-cap of Z, which would be very welcome, and you could also see the snotbombs flying, which would make for more interesting viewing experiences, since at least I find that instant cast fungals are boring to watch.
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What bothers me the most is everyone complains about Zerg being broken/overpowered Blizzard takes a year to address the issue. Fuck Blizzard tbh
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On December 24 2012 23:11 arena_say_what wrote:
What bothers me the most is everyone complains about Zerg being broken/overpowered Blizzard takes a year to address the issue. Fuck Blizzard tbh
Yeah, how many months did it take to nerf snipe, how many weeks did it take to fix 5 rax reaper, and how many days until the blue flame nerf went live?
They sure do love taking time with gerg
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On December 24 2012 21:14 gosublade wrote:
i dont understand why they wont change fungal to a slow rather than immobilization.. would change so fucking much wouldnt it?
You can keep spreading to not get additional fungal, chain fungal is harder, escaping with dropships with army intact is still possible.. Just overall, the game would change for the better, create more awesome situations and battles.
edit: psionic being immune to fungal is like the most retarded change ever
From what DB has said in interviews, they tried turning it into a slow and it had minimal effect because chaining the fungles together was still possible. That is the real issue with fungle growth, that it is possible to chain fungles together, the root only makes that more possible. Storm, which does far more damage, is less of a problem because units can avoid it, but no battle lasts long enough for someone to chain storms on a specific location and players actively dodge storms.
I don’t know if a projectile will solve the problem, because the root still exists and any unit hit by the fungle is still rooted. I would rather they focus on the root and maybe make it shorter than length of fungle. If the root was 2 or 1 second, it would allow the units to escape before the next fungle was chained. At one second or less, the root would serve more to chance out the units previous action, rather than stop it is place forever.
In short, if fungle is going to stop unit movement, units need to be able to move again before the next fungle can be applied. Fungle as a half a second interrupt is far more intresting than fungle as a 4 second root.
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On December 24 2012 23:30 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 23:11 arena_say_what wrote:
What bothers me the most is everyone complains about Zerg being broken/overpowered Blizzard takes a year to address the issue. Fuck Blizzard tbh Yeah, how many months did it take to nerf snipe, how many weeks did it take to fix 5 rax reaper, and how many days until the blue flame nerf went live? They sure do love taking time with gerg
The funny part is that they nerfed those after 1 or 2 events where they were used and the community whined that Blizzard was acting to quickly and should let the players figure it out. They do that with the infestor(though they waited way to long) and we grip that they did not act fast enough.
To be clear though, blue flame was really dumb before the nerf. Two of the stupid things could destroy unlimited workers in a single shot.
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I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core.
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On December 25 2012 00:07 Dr.Sin wrote:
I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core.
An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious...
"the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..."
Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings".
In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct.
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On December 25 2012 00:14 Fullback wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 00:07 Dr.Sin wrote:
I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core. An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting.
This is imo a great idea, but i'm a little scared of the implication in late game TvP. Because 2xghosts production ...
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On December 24 2012 21:49 ButtCraft wrote:
Revert Queen range buff, and everything changes back to normal.
The biggest problem with TvZ is creep imo. A lot of you noobs will say "LOL CREEP? Creep can't even attack!" The fact is, the extreme speed and surface area with which creep is able to be spread now makes for incredibly weak early game bio aggression by T.
Every single push by the terran soon after will be slowed by the necessity to clear out the tens, if not hundreds of creep tumors. It's suicide to unsiege while on creep, and leapfrogging tanks takes VERY long. So you have 2 options, clear the creep, or leapfrog.
Both of these options buy what the zerg thrives off of most: Time. The more time the zerg has to prepare for the attack, the more the zerg will crush the attack, the more the zerg will have larva for a follow up counter, etc.
All of this has snowballed because reactor hellion expand no longer can kill off queens, creep.
I completly agree with this. What the queen patch has really done, is giving zerg the ability to spread creep (almost) as far as they like. And pushing onto creep as terran is pretty much suicide since you rely on tanks so much. So terrans really need to stay on top of clearing out zergs creep every chance they get, and if they fail to do so they wont have the ability to end the game after having won a huge engagement. Simply because creep is in the way of them
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EPT
