• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:49
CEST 18:49
KST 01:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.161Rollback Netcode in Brood War845.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202622Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.16 StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon 5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 ESL Pro Tour for SC2 discontinued [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development
Tourneys
$3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BSL23 Confirmations Starts on New BSL Portal ASL FINALS HYPE VIDEO 2X ASL22 General Discussion Sagi.gg Launcher Released
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues ASL 22 Finals [ASL22] Semifinal A [ASL22] Semifinal B
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Link Between Gaming and …
TrAiDoS
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11321 users

Public Profile for Coffeeling

General Profile:
User name Coffeeling
Photo None uploaded.
Joined TL.net Tuesday, 30th of November 2010
Birthday  
Country Finland
Quote Squee
TL Posts 250
Average Posts Per Day 0.04
Average Posts Per Week 0.28
Posts made in the last week 0
Liquipedia Contribution

Coffeeling's Public Profile:
Hopefully interesting thoughts on why SC2 is far worse than what it could be (long, no demand on it to be BW):
+ Show Spoiler +
On another forum Coffee Zombie wrote:

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/the-core-gameplay/

Show nested quote +
The reason why it is getting longer to get to the core fun is because it probably isn’t there. Allow me to use an example.

During the Real Time Strategy game boom, many people were making RTS games. Very few people knew what they were doing. They kept focusing on later units where they said it was fun when all this other stuff is activated.

In order to make a good RTS game, you need to get to the core gameplay, wipe away everything else, and make it interesting. What is the core RTS gameplay? What would a RTS game look like with just the core RTS gameplay?

-Buildings-

-A HQ building (often where the building makers are made).
-A Resource building (where resources are brought in. Sometimes it is the HQ).
-A Unit producing building (where you make offensive units).

-Units-

-A builder unit (who makes buildings)
-A resource unit (who gathers the resource and brings it back)
-One offense unit (it is the first one made).

And that is it. One single unit. And it is the early grunt. Based on just this, the RTS needs to become interesting and be very fun to play. The RTS does not get to bring in super cool later units. Just the simple basics here. This is the core gameplay in which everything else stacks on. If this is not interesting, the game will fail.

When you focus on the the core gameplay, you realize things become very important that you never considered. In the above example, resource gatherers and the very basic structures need to become extremely interesting. In bad RTS games, little attention is given to them (while too much attention is given to the uber units at the end of the tech tree).


This post is surprisingly good for Malstrom as of late. Very, very good actually. Extremely good. Many games nowadays feel pretty bad because they're built on things that are not fundamental to playing a game. Much of this is just focusing on the how instead of the why, though. People make stuff instead of gameplay, and if gameplay is made, people tend to focus on elaborate systems instead. If both are avoided, the ugly problem of overt simplicity for it's own sake can rear it's head. But really, building a solid foundation and then expanding on it is very good.

A few brilliant examples from Starcraft 2, as examples of very simple, but very interesting things:

Farms: Terran and Zerg farms are very interesting contraptions. The zerg farm, called an Overlord is actually a flying unit instead of a building and can thus be used to scout (it can also later be upgraded into a makeshift dropship. Cheap and massable due to not consuming population cap, but slow), while the Terran farm (Supply Depot) can lower itself to the ground so it can be walked over. This is extremely useful in building walls on chokepoints near your base.

Point-based armour system: The presence of this alone creates an actual difference between the cannon and the machine gun. While the machine gun may deal great damage, armour rapidly kills off it's effectiveness. Far less so for the cannon. A percentage-based armour system needs attack types because it mostly cares about the DPS.

No-nonsense units with different numbers: This is one readily underestimated thing in modern RTS unit design. Consider the Marine and the Zergling. Both deal about equivalent (and quite high) damage with quick weak attacks, making them bad against heavy armour. The Zerglings come in two-packs, and move very fast, but attack only in melee. Meanwhile, the Marine has more HP and shoots at range (it is also marginally better against armoured targets). These kinds of traits readily synergize with the very basic traits of the species' different farms, allowing Zerg great map control (the ability to have a lot of map vision and the ability to project force around the map), while the Marines' range and Terran's natural wall-offs trivially fend off the Zerg. The range also allows Marines who find good places to hole up in to achieve 300-esque feats of endurance and slaughter.

The different character of the races is easily evident with such simple things as these, and they are also very interesting and versatile. Yet they also do one very important thing: All these traits respect the fundamental character of an RTS game: That of troop production and movement, which allow for rough simulations of real-life strategy.

The racial traits of the Protoss are, in contrast, designed to completely circumvent these basic kinds of rules. In an RTS, troop production is usually done in steps such that:
1. The player orders the unit
2. The unit's cost is paid.
3. The unit is produced, forcing the player to wait.
4. The unit is ready and emerges from the production facility, heading for the battlefield.

The Protoss process works differently. They have a mechanic called the Warp Gate which allows them to produce their units directly at any Pylon (the name of the Protoss farm) they have on the map. The Warp-in process works like so:
1. The player orders the unit.
2. The unit's cost is paid.
3. The unit emerges at the chosen Pylon.
4. The Warpgate goes on cooldown, forcing the player to wait.

This sounds like a simple adjustment but serves to undermine a great number of the natural dynamics arising from the game's foundations:
1. Protoss reinforcements are completed much faster. They can get units immediately when getting free population cap whether due to a new farm or units dying. The Terran and Zerg have to wait half a minute for their units to even come out.
1b. This means that an even army trade favours the Protoss because he has units out first. If you win narrowly you may not even have the advantage, let alone a large one.
2. The Protoss player can build his unit-producing structures later because the first unit comes out immediately. As we all know, time is man- I mean money.
3. The natural concepts of reinforcement times and resulting defender's advantage (based on which basic tenets of strategy work) cease to apply to a great extent. Regardless of how far the Protoss opponent's base is, his troops are at your door immediately and you cannot intercept his reinforcements by way of ambush. You, conversely, are bound by these basic rules of strategy.
4. The system is ridiculously efficient. Normally these kinds of abilities require taking insane risks like placing your production structures near the enemy base (called proxying them). Protoss needs a single Pylon. This is an insanely cheap cost (100 minerals for Pylon, 150 for a single production facility, 50 for a Worker/Marine or a pair of Zerglings), and has none of the other traditional disadvantages like having no production in your home base.

The mechanic is interesting, and feels cool, yes, but a simple examination exposes all kinds of problems. These can somewhat be masked away by balance tweaks like making Protoss units weak (which was done but leads to another host of problems) but the core issues are still there and will inevitably rear their ugly head somewhere.
The reason I chose this example is to highlight two things:
First, how a certain sense of rules to be respected is necessary for things to make sense and the players to have expectations. In this case, the Warp Gate tramples on established rules of how the game works at a very fundamental level.
The second one is to highlight how antagonistic multiplayer raises the bar for the cool stuff to be included. Imagine Kirby Wii as a competitive more than co-operational game, like a race to the finish for example. Kirby himself may be broken, but him being super cool does not limit the other characters' ability to be cool to a great degree at all. It's still a big bummer but not a complete catastrophe.
In a game where the players are direct enemies, however, it is a catastrophe because what you can do very drastically affects what your opponent is allowed to do. It is not enough for the unit to be cool and fun to use - it also has to be fun or interesting to face. Numbers tweaks are possible but in the end the fundamental nature of the inclusion should be "right". This is something I feel Blizzard is nowadays very much slipping on*.

*If they were ever good at it in the first place - as far as I know, the Frozen Throne expansion was directed by a WarCraft 3 pro or a similar outsider who basically went "goddamnit let me fix your game" and included things with a very distinct gameplay job to fulfill instead of just making cool stuff up and including it (Blizz's admitted MO with Heart of the Swarm). The game is still broken, balance-wise, to the point where a famous Undead pro just picked Orc against Orc. Starcraft: Brood War's famed balance is in large part a result of saner unit designs combined with professional Korean mapmakers and the near-inhuman effort and work ethic of the progamers from said country. An argument could be made that Blizzard was only ever really good in the art direction and general content department, where they have been very clearly slipping as of late (Exhibits #1, #2, #3)

Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 12m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech164
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 38714
Bisu 1036
actioN 371
Horang2 331
Stork 326
Snow 172
firebathero 168
Rush 131
Zeus 98
Light 41
[ Show more ]
Mong 40
Trap 28
Shinee 26
PianO 25
sSak 22
Rock 21
Sharp 17
HiyA 16
Sexy 15
scan(afreeca) 15
zelot 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 7
Sacsri 7
Dota 2
qojqva3457
Dendi1036
420jenkins298
League of Legends
Grubby1040
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps1029
fl0m486
x6flipin289
Heroes of the Storm
MindelVK10
Other Games
B2W.Neo800
FrodaN613
Beastyqt588
ceh9473
crisheroes220
KnowMe131
RotterdaM114
Trikslyr82
QueenE73
Mew2King54
kaitlyn1
Organizations
Other Games
WardiTV467
BasetradeTV275
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 68
• niya90s 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 29
• Michael_bg 9
• ChaeLyn 6
• FirePhoenix3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2219
• WagamamaTV623
League of Legends
• Nemesis2443
Other Games
• Shiphtur1065
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
7h 12m
Kung Fu Cup
18h 12m
The PondCast
1d 17h
Online Event
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Rush vs Soulkey
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL Open Qualifier
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
IPSL
4 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-12
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
HCC Season 3
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.