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On January 10 2012 01:46 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Man this is some real drivel. First some excuses for Dimaga then saying that top foreigners can take games of koreans whenever they want? So they don't want to all the time, that's the problem with foreigners? They just don't want to win games against koreans...
exactly.
These are just excuses being made. If these foreigners can "take a game off korean whenever they want"...why didn't it just plain happen? They didn't want the money or the victory enough? wow.
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United States15275 Posts
On January 10 2012 02:51 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:28 cyclone25 wrote:
Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small. Do you actually expect MKP and MC to reply to an interview in a country outside Korea on a topic about the difference between Koreans and foreigners that "lolwut, Koreans PWN foreigners! We have way more skills than them."? One thing that is a sure indicator of this skill gap other than tournament performance - did you notice how the casters got may things wrong about what koreans, specifically MKP and MC were doing. For instance, there Game 4 in the Grand Finals where MC pushed with, as far as I remember, a zealot and a stalker to set up 4 gate, and Incontrol was like "lol Sound is gonna rape this army. And 10 seconds later Sound ggs. Jaws dropped, MrBitter didn't even have a chance to say anything. The players didn't know exactly what happened. And this is not one time, and Incontrol was specifically guilty of this calling the game many many times far different than what the plan or outcome would be. Another is MKP, I don't remember exactly which one now, but I think I was a game vs violet what Violet has the entire midgame swarm and MKP had 5ish marines, 2 marauders, and a hellion (or something like this). He held, but with great damage, as he lost 5-10 scvs in the process. Everyone, even Grubby (really smart player) thought it was going to be over, but guess what, MKP won, defending the roach zergling baneling push everytime with impeccable army control until his econ kicked in. There are a whole lot other games. And while we are at it, why not talk about the skill itself. Can you imagine Naniwa, or even Huk, do the sick sick forcefield + split army that MC did in one of the games? Or any foreigner terran controlling a 5 unit army and make it do damage as if it were a 20 unit army like MKP?
Violet should've won that game, but he had utterly fail micro in the engagement.
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The only difference between players is which strategies they use. Once Koreans find a good strat (1-1-1 or 4gate) they will USE IT AS LONG AS IT WORKS, while many players will try to practise other strategies/divert from that.
Also HSC4 was awesome.
Statistics are a bit interesting though, the most is the "every Korean got out of his group".
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On January 10 2012 02:28 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:19 AsnSensation wrote:On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc.... LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches. Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo. Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea. Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG. GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc. Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
Yes Koreans are very modest and respectful to the foreign players who are fledgling progamers at best. You can look at interviews and I will look at results: Koreans out-skill, out-muscle and out-man foreigners. The gap isn't close to what it is in Broodwar but it is substantial enough that Koreans hardly ever lose bo5 and still rarely lose bo3.
And to the guy who said something about a "European GSL" I would expect the result to be just like almost every other international tournament. 5% of the players will be Koreans and 80% of the top5 spots will occupied by those Koreans. A foreigner will never win GSL not because it is all occupied by Koreans but because they aren't good enough.
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On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
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On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
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On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
"sad" "pathetic" "has not followed the scene" "ignorant" "ill-informed"
All obfuscations. All words.
I gave you something specific to answer as a proof of all those things you are saying about me.
I repeat: I challenge you. Answer them, or make haste and be gone!
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On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
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On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
Of course it's not 100% anyone saying that is an idiot. At the same time anyone who thinks foreigners are just as good as Koreans (overall) is just as big an idiot.
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On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
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On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I can't dig anymore the page where I made the reply on a reply to the same post, but as I remember, I wrote it like this:
hyperbole, dude, hyperbole.
cmon guys you dont have to be literally literal. Nothing in life is 100% certain! Except that foreigners are nowhere near koreans skillwise at this point in time. Thats 100% :p
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On January 10 2012 03:21 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great. I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
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On January 10 2012 03:27 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:21 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great. I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans? We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not far ahead of foreigners.
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On January 10 2012 03:30 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:27 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:21 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great. I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans? We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts). At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners.
And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners!
I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
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On January 10 2012 02:52 Jeity wrote:
What I find ridiculously illogical is how blindly biased some people are. When people say a korean pro lost because of jetlag or because it's an online tournament with terrible lag--they get shot down by foreigner-fanboys. But the fact of the matter is, MC came back to 4-0 Idra after a night of rest, and the korean pros have dominated streaks of LAN tourneys where the lag disadvantage is gone. These "excuses" have supporting evidence for not being a load of bull.
On the other hand, foreigners have had varying conditions as well but time and time again their failure to win regardless of these conditions has done little to support the claims of jetlag, an unfamiliar environment, and whatnot. Saying that a 3-0 score is a lot closer than it looks is also getting to be a tiresome claim. If it was really that close, then the 3-0 result wouldn't always be in favor of the korean pro. I can't even think of a time off the top of my head where a korean lost to a foreigner 0-2 or 0-3 and viewers said, "well the games were a lot closer than the score!"
I like a few foreign pros and I'm happy to cheer them on--but seeing some people delude themselves about their favorite player or scene makes me feel like a fool for supporting the same.
I'm starting to feel that this blind bias and complete denial is just people masking their disappointments with anything they can muster in an attempt to explain the situation.
When people see scores like 4-0 or anything-0, it rattles them to the core and makes them question their own beliefs.
If the finals looked more like 3-2 or 4-3 or whatever, then yes we can comfortably say that foreigners really do deserve a seat at the table alongside Koreans. But when we see crazy results like 4-0, this throws everything up into question.
to see your favorite player anything-0'ed is incredibly disappointing and many here would rather believe it didn't happen at all. So therefore "it doesn't count".
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On January 10 2012 03:36 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:30 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:27 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:21 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great. I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans? We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts). At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners. And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners! I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate.
2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate.
3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate.
4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'.
4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head).
So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
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On January 10 2012 02:02 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc.... except top 32 Westerners cant even compete with top 200 KR GM ladder and those who can CANT get trough code A qualifiers just some food for thought
Top 32 Westerners haven't all gone to Korea (in fact, very, very few have).
All the top Westerners that have gone over to Korea have made it into the KR GM without much trouble.
And a number of good Korean players haven't gotten into Code A either (Puma anyone?).
As I've said before, anyone pretending foreigners can consistently beat MVP, Nestea, etc. are delusional. But anyone pretending that everyone in GSL Code S is completely untouchable to anyone from outside Korea is equally blind.
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On January 10 2012 03:44 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:52 Jeity wrote:
What I find ridiculously illogical is how blindly biased some people are. When people say a korean pro lost because of jetlag or because it's an online tournament with terrible lag--they get shot down by foreigner-fanboys. But the fact of the matter is, MC came back to 4-0 Idra after a night of rest, and the korean pros have dominated streaks of LAN tourneys where the lag disadvantage is gone. These "excuses" have supporting evidence for not being a load of bull.
On the other hand, foreigners have had varying conditions as well but time and time again their failure to win regardless of these conditions has done little to support the claims of jetlag, an unfamiliar environment, and whatnot. Saying that a 3-0 score is a lot closer than it looks is also getting to be a tiresome claim. If it was really that close, then the 3-0 result wouldn't always be in favor of the korean pro. I can't even think of a time off the top of my head where a korean lost to a foreigner 0-2 or 0-3 and viewers said, "well the games were a lot closer than the score!"
I like a few foreign pros and I'm happy to cheer them on--but seeing some people delude themselves about their favorite player or scene makes me feel like a fool for supporting the same. I'm starting to feel that this blind bias and complete denial is just people masking their disappointments with anything they can muster in an attempt to explain the situation. When people see scores like 4-0 or anything-0, it rattles them to the core and makes them question their own beliefs. If the finals looked more like 3-2 or 4-3 or whatever, then yes we can comfortably say that foreigners really do deserve a seat at the table alongside Koreans. But when we see crazy results like 4-0, this throws everything up into question. to see your favorite player anything-0'ed is incredibly disappointing and many here would rather believe it didn't happen at all. So therefore "it doesn't count".
Talking about 3-0 and 4-0's, how about Stephano 4-0 vs Lucky in the IPL final, IdrA 3-0 vs Puma, Huk 4-1 MC at MLG and another 2-0 one month later?.
You forgot these pretty fast, eh?
Nerchio got some pretty bad maps vs MC and it's also his worst matchup. I'm sure he would have rolled Sound too in the final.
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On January 10 2012 03:55 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:36 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 03:30 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:27 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:21 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:
[quote]
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great. I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans? We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts). At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners. And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners! I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks. Show nested quote +1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate.
2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate.
3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate.
4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'. 4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head). So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:05 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 22:05 Zealously wrote:On January 09 2012 12:46 OopsOopsBaby wrote:On January 09 2012 11:09 Zealously wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi. IPL31st stephano 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean overall breakdown ro32 14/32 koreans 43.75% ro16 10/16 koreans 62.5% ro8 5/8 koreans 62.5% MLG Orlando1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th idra 5th korean 6th korena 7th korean 8th korean Dreamhack Summer1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean note: only 3 koreans in this tournament but they took top 4 placings Dreamhack Valencia1st korean 2nd ThorZaIN 3rd korean 4th korean note: again only 3 koreans and all took top 4 placings i give it to you for TSL3 where koreans placed like shit. but its an online event not LAN. I am unsure what you are arguing against - we are not discussing overall placements, in which case there would be no disagreements, as the average Korean is ten times stronger than the average foreigner, but he stated that Koreans 100% were going to win all tournaments they participate in. I proved him wrong. 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. place finishes have nothing to do with that, and I never said anything on the matter. Don't you think that's a pretty dumb thing to argue? It's obvious that Koreans don't win 100% of the tournaments, bring up one result and there, he's wrong. Why argue against someone that's obviously making a blanket statement and be like yup I'm right.
I would feel inclined to agree with you if we were talking about one or two tournaments. However, a significant amount of tournaments have been won by foreigners. The percentage is not near that of the Koreans (30-70, maybe? 25-75? Something like that), but it is still not something to shrug off.
Other than that, though - statements like his bug me. I've never understood exaggeration, and claiming "100% Koreans win everything lul" seems stupid to me.
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EPT
