EPTStatistics on HSC4, Foreigners vs. Koreans - Page 16
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:04 CursedRich wrote: most of the top foreigners weren't there jynx lol posted sametime ^_^ | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA. It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans. Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea) Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers... If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well. | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
If Naniwa, Idra, Sen, Stephano, HuK, White-Ra, Mana, SaSe and the other top foreigners went to the GSL, and all had to go through the ordinary qualification process, I doubt people would say they have a great shot at winning. Sure, they might make some splashes but I would bet good money against them. It might even be that someone wins one, but I think if there were 10 or so GSL's with a foreign contingent of this caliber, Koreans would win 9 or so. If the "top" koreans (the distinction between top and quite good is fairly arbitrary, I think) show up to a tournament, I would say they have a great chance of winning even if they are in the minority. In fact, even with sub 25% attendance I would guess they would win 7 or so of the MLG's or IPL's. Yes, the foreigners could stop them. but more often they would lose. The gap is not "foreigners cannot possibly beat koreans" as it was in BW. Instead, it is that foreigners are, on average, a lot worse, and the best foreigners are probably not quite as good as the best Koreans. Perhaps one or two foreigners are as good, but more Koreans are at that level. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers... If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well. Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea. There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans. | ||
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Fourn
Greece227 Posts
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Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:18 K3Nyy wrote: Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea. There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans. You're totally right but some people still think that Koreans are these mythical monsters that are born with starcraft skills | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers... If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well. In no other (e)sport is one nation so dominant, though. In Starcraft, "Korean" has become a synonym for "brutally good". | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:18 K3Nyy wrote: Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea. There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans. Well then, if SaSe, Stephano, Ret, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Sheth, Banjo, ToD, Grubby, Sjow, Sen, Fenix, Morrow, Demuslim(2012) are to be considered Koreans for 2012 then yeah, things look indeed grim for the foreigner scene which will be represented by Nerchio and Beastyqt alone. | ||
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justsayinbro
307 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:04 CursedRich wrote: most of the top foreigners weren't there i thought a lot of people are on stephano's jock. clearly the most overrated foreigner ever. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:29 Longshank wrote: Well then, if SaSe, Stephano, Ret, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Sheth, Banjo, ToD, Grubby, Sjow, Sen, Fenix, Morrow, Demuslim(2012) are to be considered Koreans for 2012 then yeah, things look indeed grim for the foreigner scene which will be represented by Nerchio and Beastyqt alone. Huk, Idra, Sase and a few others are already pretty much on their level. I don't think the others have trained there long enough for it to pay off. | ||
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Sphen5117
United States413 Posts
On January 09 2012 11:06 ilsamsamchil wrote: I just lost a $3000 bet I made after reading TL preview =\ No offense to TL writers, but how on earth can you look at only one source, on such a shaky platform as a single tournament for the basis of risking so much money? Reading one article that says you should bet one way or another is always bad. Look at multiple sources. Look at the inclinations of the sources you look at. | ||
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Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:29 Longshank wrote: Well then, if SaSe, Stephano, Ret, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Sheth, Banjo, ToD, Grubby, Sjow, Sen, Fenix, Morrow, Demuslim(2012) are to be considered Koreans for 2012 then yeah, things look indeed grim for the foreigner scene which will be represented by Nerchio and Beastyqt alone. I can't believe what I'm reading. Koreans are better than foreigners because of their korean training(team houses, better ladder etc). Using HuK's victory at dreamhack or HSC as an argument that foreigners can compete with koreans is ridiculous though | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
In addition to the usual reasons given (i.e. language barriers, culture shock, missing home) which are all legitimate, I think successful foreigners often do not have the constitution necessary to succeed in the type of practice regimen that Korean teams adopt. The reason is that the skill set necessary to become a successful foreigner is different than the skill set necessary to become a top Korean. If I am from Korea and the most accessible tournament is the GSL the path to becoming a progamer is obvious: practice hard enough for a team to notice you and pick you up, then practice even more and do well in the GSL. There is an hierarchical system already in place, ready to reward the most diligent players. Thus, those that come out on top are not only talented: they have also worked very, very hard. And those just below them, the not-quite Code S players, have also worked hard and are also talented. This system leads to a deep, powerful scene where every player is of superior quality. Foreigners, on the other hand. practice less on average. I am not trying to criticize their work ethic: if one does not have to practice as hard to succeed why should they? However, the side effect is that many players who are talented, but not necessarily unbelievably motivated, are capable of rising to the top. At least when compared to the very top of the Korean scene, it is likely that their work ethic is merely adequate, rather than superb. That is why I find HuK so remarkable. While it is certainly no surprise that he could rise to the top with sufficient practice, the very fact that he can practice so much is extraordinary. | ||
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00Visor
4337 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:22 Fourn wrote: Why do people say Naniwa can put up a fight in Code A when he's never made it past the round of 32? Why did people think Leenock deserved Code S though he never made it for a long time? Don't base your opinion on 3 matches. Naniwa has proven elsewhere. | ||
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cyclone25
Romania3344 Posts
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA. It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans. Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea) According to you, Puma or Violet are foreigner players then? | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:50 cyclone25 wrote: According to you, Puma or Violet are foreigner players then? Well Puma is in Korea. I dunno about Violet. But look at Idra when he left Korea, his skill clearly declined. He went from "Korean" skill level to foreigner. | ||
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Fourn
Greece227 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:40 00Visor wrote: Why did people think Leenock deserved Code S though he never made it for a long time? Don't base your opinion on 3 matches. Naniwa has proven elsewhere. Your question is completely irrelevant. Leenock clearly deserved Code S and proved he did when he made it to the Code S finals. He was also in Code S originally, dropped to Code A, and made the Ro4 twice losing to MKP and Ganzi. His 1-12 GSL record says hi, that's more than 3 matches in case you were wondering. Naniwa has yet to prove he deserves to compete in Korea, evidenced by his lackluster performances thus far. | ||
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cyclone25
Romania3344 Posts
"Q : What do you think about skill-level of foreign players? I thought that they play really well from the full league qualifiers. I treated them as if I was playing a Korean player. SuperNoVa and MKP didn't get knocked out because they underestimated foreign players, foreign players showed their skills." MarineKing lost 0-2 to Kas and SuperNova 0-2 to Titan. Mvp also had trouble vs MacSed and BlinG, winning 2-1 in close games. This tournament was played in Korea, and koreans did pretty bad vs foreigners that are not considered top 5. | ||
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