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On January 10 2012 07:16 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 06:39 1Eris1 wrote:On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL). Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember Only one I can find is IEM Guangzhou, with elfi and Idra in the finals. EDIT: Oh, and TSL 3, obviously.
Don't really think online tournaments should really count though...(Like honestly. Do people really still think lag did not affect that tournament?)
And yeah, IEM Guangzhou is all I can remember but I don't even recall a strong Korean presence there. Actually the only Korean I even remember is Puma
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On January 10 2012 07:16 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:02 DamageControL wrote:On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL). If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans. All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans. GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate. They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days. It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it. As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low.
Actually . . when you mix in 2-3 Koreans against top foreigners, historically the Koreans have won.
Blizzcon? WCG? Early MLGs? NASL?
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On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL
Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG
Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5.
Where is the big difference?
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On January 10 2012 07:29 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:16 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:02 DamageControL wrote:On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL). If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans. All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans. GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate. They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days. It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it. As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low. Actually . . when you mix in 2-3 Koreans against top foreigners, historically the Koreans have won. Blizzcon? WCG? Early MLGs? NASL?
MC even won tourneys where he was the ONLY korean.
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On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
You cherry picked the one month of 2011 that foreigners did reasonably well and the Koreans still took more events.
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Koreans are better because they actually dedicate themselves to play 10-12 hours a day. If foreigners did that i'm sure they would be able to compete with higher chances of winning. Foreigners are lazy.
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On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans 8 events won, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
The tournaments the Koreans won were about 20% or less korean as far as distribution goes
The tournaments that foreigners won had about 80% or more of their distribution being foreigners.
There's your difference.
In none of those tournaments were there a majority of Koreans, or even CLOSE to a majority of Koreans.
And yet they still won a majority.
How do people still argue about this?
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On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
You're not counting tournaments where foreigners are the minority but you ARE counting tournaments where Koreans are the minority? Bias much? How many Koreans were at ESWC? Very few. How many Koreans were at IEM Guangzhou? Very few.
You're not taking into consideration that even when Koreans are vastly outnumbered by foreigners, they overwhelmingly dominate except for a handful of exceptions. However, when foreigners are put in similar situations, like when they participate in Code A or Blizzard Cup, they get completely destroyed. Stop being obviously biased.
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On January 10 2012 07:16 cyclone25 wrote:
It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it.
This is exactly the wrong attitude to have as a progamer. Let's see, the competition is tough, there are equally skilled players, that means that I MAY OR MAY NOT win. What kind of mindset is that? You cannot become the best by dodging the high level events. If one wants to be the best, one has to compete with the best.
Let's take Idra's GSL group as an example: now I don't know how he feels about it, but damn, if I were him, I'd be absolutely thrilled to have the opportunity to compete with Nestea and MVP, and see how well I perform. I'll quote Corneille here and say that a victory without danger is a triumph without glory.
edit: well it seems that so far cyclone25 is not willing to listen to reason so I'm out.
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On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
I don't think it's so much about winning a tournament as it is about the overall performance of koreans compared to the rest. they almost always perform really well and have half if not more of their players in top 8. I mean we are talking about just Koreans vs the rest of the world. One can't be so blind to not see that Koreans are just better. But it's ok, that's what makes foreigners participation in international events so exciting, we want to see them do well.
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On January 10 2012 07:32 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference? You cherry picked the one month of 2011 that foreigners did reasonably well and the Koreans still took more events.
Pretty much just send the whole GSL korean team members (Code S and Code A) to compete in all the events and it probably guaranteed that no non-korean will even make the top 8. LOL
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On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
Try take results from the other 11 months and put em together  )
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Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. He's essentially the perfect second generation progamer. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
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On January 10 2012 07:29 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:16 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:02 DamageControL wrote:On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL). If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans. All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans. GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate. They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days. It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it. As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low. Actually . . when you mix in 2-3 Koreans against top foreigners, historically the Koreans have won. Blizzcon? WCG? Early MLGs? NASL?
Koreans had their very best players at WCG and Blizzcon vs 2-3 top foreigners.
Blizzcon had Mvp and NesTea vs Naniwa? ... Notable foreigner players were Sen, Ret and Dimaga too but they're not top 5 like Mvp and NesTea are.
WCG had Mvp, MarineKing, SuperNova vs Huk and Kas? Again the koreans had the edge when it comes to top players.
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On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
ESWC had only 2 Koreans, so by your logic it shouldn't count. Koreans won double the amount of tournaments of foreigners.
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On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote:
Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
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On January 10 2012 07:32 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference? You cherry picked the one month of 2011 that foreigners did reasonably well and the Koreans still took more events.
Sorry I meant "since" September but you knew that.
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On January 10 2012 07:24 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:16 SeaSwift wrote:On January 10 2012 06:39 1Eris1 wrote:On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL). Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember Only one I can find is IEM Guangzhou, with elfi and Idra in the finals. EDIT: Oh, and TSL 3, obviously. Don't really think online tournaments should really count though...(Like honestly. Do people really still think lag did not affect that tournament?) And yeah, IEM Guangzhou is all I can remember but I don't even recall a strong Korean presence there. Actually the only Korean I even remember is Puma
Puma, JYP and Rain.
IEM Guangzhou was the tournament the casters at HSC were going on about in which DIMAGA 2-0ed JYP. But yes, only 3 Koreans to 13 foreigners and there was still a Korean in the top 3. Bear in mind this is the most foreign-favoured major offline tournament I can find, and Koreans still did remarkably well.
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On January 10 2012 07:40 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote:
Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams. Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
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EPT
