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On January 10 2012 04:59 cyclone25 wrote:
Here is the most recent interview with MVP and a question on this matter:
"Q : What do you think about skill-level of foreign players?
I thought that they play really well from the full league qualifiers. I treated them as if I was playing a Korean player. SuperNoVa and MKP didn't get knocked out because they underestimated foreign players, foreign players showed their skills."
MarineKing lost 0-2 to Kas and SuperNova 0-2 to Titan. Mvp also had trouble vs MacSed and BlinG, winning 2-1 in close games.
This tournament was played in Korea, and koreans did pretty bad vs foreigners that are not considered top 5.
First of all, let me say that I'm not biased towards the koreans nor the foreigners, I don't care about where the players are from, I just want to watch good games.
MVP's answer is very professional, and as expected from a pro, he approaches every game in a serious manner and doesn't underestimate his opponents; nonetheless I don't really see how it is relevant to the matter at hand. As for the part about Supernova and MKP, he is right: the foreigners they played against are skilled. But then again, if they weren't skilled, they wouldn't be able to compete at this level.
Now to me, it seems that the information you did post is just anecdotal evidence, it doesn't indicate that foreigners can defeat Koreans on a consistent basis. If anything, it just tells us that foreigners are indeed able to take some games off of Koreans, and nothing more. It doesn't reflect any tendency.
Furthermore, just to put things in perspective, while Titan isn't exactly a top player, Kas on the other hand is a total beast. He's currently #1 foreigner according to International TLPD.
All in all we should take your post with a grain of salt. It is right when it says that foreigners are skilled, but it does not mean that foreigners can consistently win vs. koreans. Even among the top tier, there is still a hierarchy if you will.
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On January 10 2012 04:40 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 04:22 Fourn wrote:
Why do people say Naniwa can put up a fight in Code A when he's never made it past the round of 32? Why did people think Leenock deserved Code S though he never made it for a long time? Don't base your opinion on 3 matches. Naniwa has proven elsewhere.
because he was actually in code s before he dropped to code a and played consistently well in it
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lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
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This should've been expected. Four code S level players typically destroy everything except each other. Fortunately, four code S level Koreans don't often feel like hopping on a plane halfway around the world to a single foreigner event.
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You can't compare Korean and Western Brood War players. One is a professional gamer in a team house with coaches that practices 12 hours a day and the other a hobbyist that is isolated and has to prioritize finishing his homework/university assignments. If Korean players wouldn't dominate then the game would simply not be worth the time.
In Starcraft 2 the Western scene has gotten a lot more professional, the game is still more volatile and less focused on mechanics, the Korean players aren't necessarily the best Korean RTS gamers and a lot of Western players have had the benefits of Korean practice. Obviously they are going to do a lot better in comparison to Brood War.
It's actually shocking Western players still do so badly. NA and Europe together is, what, like 20 times as high population as Korea? RTS games are not as popular here, but still, it seems like there's new Korean talent popping up like every week, outpacing new Western talent. I think maybe it's what someone else said: the type of player that is good in the West and can consider being a pro-gamer is maybe not ideally suited to a pro-gaming life, not being as motivated/willing to practice, while only people who practice often rise to the top in Korea.
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On January 10 2012 05:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
This should've been expected. Four code S level players typically destroy everything except each other. Fortunately, four code S level Koreans don't often feel like hopping on a plane halfway around the world to a single foreigner event.
There were only 3 Code S players at HSC. JYP, MKP, MC.
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On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
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On January 10 2012 05:53 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 05:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
This should've been expected. Four code S level players typically destroy everything except each other. Fortunately, four code S level Koreans don't often feel like hopping on a plane halfway around the world to a single foreigner event. There were only 3 Code S players at HSC. JYP, MKP, MC.
Code S level. I count Sound as performing at that level considering who he beat in both the championship and qualifiers, as well as his degree of dominance over quite a few of his opponents.
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man beat every zerg with forgg's joke build
i dont consider him code s level, far from it
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On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
And then you look at the tournaments foreigners won and you see it looks something like this
1. foreigner (probably huk, naniwa, idra, or stephano)
2. korean
3. korean
4. korean
5. foreigner (one of the above)
6. korean
7. korean.
10. lowest placing korean
Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember
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On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
So the hardest, most prestegious and the one that cares the most you just don't count?
Yea, i am sure you get fair results...
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On January 09 2012 10:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +As Incontrol often commented, the games were often closer than the final score. Can you explain what you mean by this? Are you saying he favored the foreigners in his casting so it felt closer? (I didn't watch)
why would you assume that's what he meant, wtf...
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On January 10 2012 06:36 Let it Raine wrote:
man beat every zerg with forgg's joke build
i dont consider him code s level, far from it
Even his matches in the Korean qualifiers?
I could be being stupid here, but beating the snot out of an array of GSL players and then dominating stiff foreigner competition to reach second overall sort of seems like he is at least top tier Code-A.
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people have been saying for ages that the skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is getting smaller. Well, I still dont see a difference. Pretty much every tournament the korean pros enter are dominated by them, save from some anomalities where guys like nani or huk did well (although huk could be considered more and more to be just a white korean player)
As a side note on that, it seems like a foreigner that has been doing well in a tournament against koreans gets completely dismantled by them in another when they have figured out his playstyle and abuse it hard... So if you ask me there still has to be a foreign player that consistently goes toe to toe with the top of the top korean players.
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On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans.
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Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
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Thanks for stats man, always fun to look at them lol!!
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On January 10 2012 06:42 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 06:36 Let it Raine wrote:
man beat every zerg with forgg's joke build
i dont consider him code s level, far from it Even his matches in the Korean qualifiers? I could be being stupid here, but beating the snot out of an array of GSL players and then dominating stiff foreigner competition to reach second overall sort of seems like he is at least top tier Code-A.
He didn't beat many GSL players.
Sound beat: Jinro, Lucky, Gumiho (AWFUL TvT), asd, heart, revival. See here.
Almost all GSL players are preparing for GSL, so only mediocre Korean players took part in the qualifiers, with a couple of notable exceptions which Sound didn't beat. Sure, Sound's performance wasn't BAD, but it wasn't all that good either. He definitely isn't worthy of being called Code S level, especially after seeing his play.
MrBitter was mistaken when he said Sound beat Jjakji.
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On January 10 2012 07:02 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL). If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans.
All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans.
GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate.
They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days.
It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it.
As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low.
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On January 10 2012 06:39 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 06:23 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote:
lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol.. Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL). Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember
Only one I can find is IEM Guangzhou, with elfi and Idra in the finals.
EDIT: Oh, and TSL 3, obviously.
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EPT
