Without getting into specifics, it's pretty obvious that foreigners were manhandled in this tournament. The reason this is worth putting into a post is because on TL, people are always debating the skill gap between the two groups. So it's useful to to have one place that compiles all the relevant statistics for a given tournament.
If you look at TL articles like Homestory Cup 4 Preview, or October Revolution, this is clearly relevant, and not flame-bait. If it's fair play to cheer-lead for foreigners, it's fair play to keep showing how big the gap actually is.
(1) MC: He never lost a match and dropped only two games against foreigners, Socke and Cloud. He then beat Nerchio, who defeated Hero and Violet, 3-0. His only real trouble was against JYP, a fellow Code S player.
(2) Sound: Never lost a match against foreigners, but dropped three games in the second group stage against foreigners. Played two tough series against Real and Violet, was demolished by MC in the finals.
(3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
(4) Violet: Defeated by Nerchio, and had some help from the Battle.net gods in beating MarineKing. Narrowly beaten by Sound.
Looking at the overall results, it's not surprising. MC, JYP are current Code S. Violet, MKP are former code S, MKP is currently code A (Edit: MKP is current Code S), Violet is training in the US. Sound is a member of StarTale, although he hasn't made a dent in GSL yet, having been knocked out first-round by MVP. Hero is code A, while Real is playing in Germany.
The hierarchy is pretty clear. Those who live in Korea, and achieve success in GSL, were clearly the best at Homestory Cup
Not much to be found in this tournament. Obviously, Nerchio is one, beating Violet and Hero, but getting stomped by MC. As Incontrol often commented, the games were often closer than the final score.
Personally, I was pinning my hopes on Socke, but unfortunately he ran into the freight train that is MarineKing, MC in his group, though he did take a game off of MC in the unpredictable PvP matchup.
And, of course, there is the foreigner contingent currently prepping up for GSL. I'm personally excited to see how Huk does. We'll just have to see, as Code S starts up again. (Edit: Yes, I know Huk is going to be Code A, not Code S. I meant GSL in general, but Code S Groups start tomorrow.)
Edit:
On January 09 2012 11:22 Kahmoon wrote: I think a lot of you are misunderstanding the OP. A lot of the hype beforehand, and a lot of people's predictions, said that foreigners were going to take down the Koreans. That didn't really happen. Sure, there are a lot of people claiming that "Obviously the Koreans would win" after the fact, but there were significantly fewer saying that beforehand. (Like pretty much always...) You could say that this thread is about the hope based predictions of the (foreign)-community, and the sometimes quite unreasonable foreigner bias that is the probable reason for that.
On January 10 2012 08:16 JinDesu wrote: Alright, I don't think this was done before, but using the Premier Tournaments Page on Liquidpedia, and selecting foreign tournaments (no GSL, no special GSL events, no events with only koreans), I made this below. For the MLGs, I selected only from the Final Tournament brackets and not included open (because that'd just skew it towards Koreans even more). For every other tournament, I used the brackets shown (usually Ro32).
And before anyone complain about which koreans I selected - I discounted Moonan and Select, but included Puma and Hero as Koreans.
2010 Dreamhack Winter - 30 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naama, 1 Korean in Top 8
2011 IEM Season V World Championship - 9 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Ace, 3 Koreans in Top 8 TSL 3 - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner Thorzain, 2 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Stockholm - 7 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner MC NASL Season 1 - 16 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner Puma, 5 Koreans in Top 8 Copenhagen Games- 57 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MC, 1 Korean in Top 8 Starwars Killer 6 - 18 Foreigners, 14 Koreans, Winner MC, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Columbus - 19 Foreigners, 5 Koreans, Winner MMA, 4 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Summer - 44 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Huk, 4 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Anaheim - 18 Foreigners, 6 Koreans, Winner MVP, 6 Koreans in Top 8 Assembly Summer - 31 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner Dimaga, 0 Koreans in Top 8 IEM Cologne - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Raleigh - 15 Foreigners, 9 Koreans, Winner Bomber, 6 koreans in Top 8 MLG Invitationals - 2 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naniwa NASL 2 - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Valencia- 5 Foreigners, 3 koreans, Winner Dongraegu IPL Season 3 - 19 Foreigners, 13 Koreans, Winner Stephano, 5 Koreans in Top 8 IEM Guangzhou[/b] - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner IdrA, 3 Koreans in Top 8 IEM New York- 12 Foreigners, 4 koreans, Winner Dongraegu, 4 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Orlando - 14 Foreigners, 10 koreans, Winner Huk, 6 Koreans in Top 8 Blizzcon Invitationals - 14 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner MVP, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Providence - 17 Foreigners, 15 Koreans, Winner Leenock, 4 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Winter - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Hero, 3 Koreans in Top 8 World Cybergames - 45 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MVP, 3 Koreans in Top 8 Blizzard Cup - 2 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner MMA
2012 Homestory Cup - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner MC, 6 koreans in Top 8
To my recollection, TSL 3 and Starwars were online and people keep saying lag is a factor. And the World Cybergames, even though it's 45 foreigners, had a lotta crappy foreigners because of their invite system. Otherwise, everything else should be accurate.
So from the above, the Koreans have won 18 out of 26 foreign premier tournaments.
Sorry for the terrible format, it's freezing cold and I wanted to whip this up in a jiffy.
Top 8 finishes Foreigner: 117 (57.4%) Korean: 87 (42.6%)
Champion: Foreigner: 8 (31%) Korean: 18 (69%)
Average Korean Participant Chances: 60.4% chance of top 8 finish 12.5% chance of being champion
Average Foreigner Participant Chances: 23.7% chance of top 8 finish 1.6% chance of being champion
Average Korean vs. Foreigner Participant Chances: 2.55 times more likely to be a top 8 finisher 7.72 times more likely to be the champion.
(*) Keep in mind that these are not all the participants, these are just the "final bracket" contestants, the top 32, top 60, top 16, whatever may apply. There are 638 total participants tabulated, out of 26 events, so that's an average of 24.3 participants per event. So, call it top-24.
As Incontrol often commented, the games were often closer than the final score.
Can you explain what you mean by this? Are you saying he favored the foreigners in his casting so it felt closer? (I didn't watch)
Basically just because the score was 3-0 or 3-1 in a best of 5 between player A and player B, that does not mean that player A dominated player B, it simply means that player A won 3 games.
Guys, isn't it obvious now? The koreans are born this this talent and there's nothing else to it. No amount of hard work or practice or studying of Starcraft will ever make you good as them. We should all just give up playing, and just watch the Koreans duke it out.... but Bling (because of his amazing ability to explain the significant details in a game) has to cast all of said Korean matches, with guest appearances by Mr. Bitter, InControl, and Rotterdamn!
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
Can't argue that the Koreans didn't deserve this one. Foreigners were relaxing during the holidays and seemed to care more about poker and drinking at HSC. Nothing wrong with that at all, but you only get what you put in and it should have come as no surprise when the Koreans cleaned house.
be happy sc2 isnt as difficult as bw or it would be even worse. currently there is at least hope of a foreigner taking a game now and then. in bw flash, jaedong or bisu would probably not lose 1 out of 100. only a minimum chance for idra, ret and nony at their best bw days.
finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
Since foreigners have won tournaments with Koreans in them in the last 12-6 months, your hyperbolic double reinforced last line is a bit silly.
Well koreans are much better because they work much harder. I am not saying foreign players don`t work hard (because they certainly do), but compared to koreans the work ethic is not the same. They are pretty crazy and deserve any bit of success they achieve. All the hard work should pay off.
I don`t really like the whole foreigner vs korean angle. It seems so played out I just don`t care anymore and want to see players play at the top of their game. This isn`t some war.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
With the exception of Thorzain/Stephano there weren't any real Korean slayers at this tournament. Thorzain/Stephano both ran into a rough patch in the beginning due to lack of preparation or w/e.
All the other players were people who could potentially put up a fight but aren't actually good enough to consistently beat Koreans.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
read my post like 3 above this... and if u still can't accept the facts, just means people like u are stuck believing what u believe, like the flying spaghetti monster.
As has been stated before, the work ethics of the Koreans is far above all the foreigners and as such, we will continue to see more and more dominance as times passes until foreigners start to increase their work ethics to the same level.
This was a good showing by the Koreans, but there were other factors as well. The statistics of the winrates between koreans and foreigners are inflated a bit by the presence of 2nd tier foreigners such as Poyo, Darkhydra, Attero, etc. Nothing against them, they are still good players capable of beating 99% of people in the community, but when they get matched up against Code S players like MC or JYP, it is probably going to be one-sided.
Some of the foreign scene best players were absent at this tournament (Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Sen), or severely underperformed (Thorzain, Stephano). Nerchio did play very well, beating Hero and Violet and losing to MC (still a very commendable performance).
Of course the Koreans are better, that is obvious. But unlike in BW, they are not invincible. Consider the last WCG, where MKP and Supernova were both knocked out earlier than expected in the tournament, and the Korean domination was not as evident. HSC 4 was just a really good tournament showing for the Koreans. We will probably see several results such as this over the coming year, but it is not impossible for foreigners to beat Koreans.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
Obviously 100% is silly. Closer to 80-90 percent.
Anyone look back at waxangel's preview? I knew the second I read that article that koreans would dominate this tournemnt lol.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
Since foreigners have won tournaments with Koreans in them in the last 12-6 months, your hyperbolic double reinforced last line is a bit silly.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
Since foreigners have won tournaments with Koreans in them in the last 12-6 months, your hyperbolic double reinforced last line is a bit silly.
hyperbole dude, hyperbole
Maybe he is talking about two hyperbolic chambers that were reinforced? That makes sense right?
I think a lot of you are misunderstanding the OP. A lot of the hype beforehand, and a lot of people's predictions, said that foreigners were going to take down the Koreans. That didn't really happen. Sure, there are a lot of people claiming that "Obviously the Koreans would win" after the fact, but there were significantly fewer saying that beforehand. (Like pretty much always...) You could say that this thread is about the hope based predictions of the (foreign)-community, and the sometimes quite unreasonable foreigner bias that is the probable reason for that.
Meh, can't really use this as a good example seeing as a lot of the top foreigners didn't actually attend this tournament. Then again, a lot of the top koreans didn't go either. Guess we'll just have to see until the next major tournament since people have all probably gotten alot better.
Koreans own white dudes. This is nothing new and the only way it will change is if foreigners start to take their SC2 careers seriously and practice as much as the Koreans do.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater?
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
read my post like 3 above this... and if u still can't accept the facts, just means people like u are stuck believing what u believe, like the flying spaghetti monster.
For your information; I am an atheist and do not believe in the FSM. That you even compare the two not only insults me but your own intelligence, as well - it is apparent that several foreigners (Stephano, Idra, Naniwa and Huk immediately come to mind) are highly capable of beating top level koreans. You will notice that none of the four foreigners I listed (there are more but less consistent ones) all have multiple tournament wins in tourneys more or less packed with Koreans. You may go ahead and claim that koreans are light years ahead of all foreigners all you like, but if you do - you're consciously overlooking major tournament wins that have gone to foreigners. And if you do, it is you who are stuck with a belief, not me.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater?
S/he might also be factoring in Naniwa's MLG Providence #2 and his MLG Global Invitational #1 - both had MVP and Nestea in them. To my knowledge, Idra does not beat MVP or Nestea.
I want all of you people who are foreigner biased to consider something.
Usually when Koreans participate in foreigner tournaments, they are in the minority. It is typically a handful of Koreans going up against a large number of foreigners. HSC 4 is no exception. Even in these situations, even if the Koreans aren't all top players (No on considers Violet, Sound, or Real to be "top Koreans". Even Hero's performance against Korean players is pretty lackluster and he shouldn't be considered a "top Korean". MC and MKP have proven themselves and JYP has had decent recent success.) the Koreans all typically do extremely well and are more likely than not to take gold.
However, when the situation is mirrored, when TOP foreigners are invited to Code A, where they are in the minority and Koreans, not even the best one, make up the majority, none of the top foreigners (except Huk), even comes remotely close to threatening any titles.
Koreans in minority: Koreans have great chances of winning Foreigners in minority: foreigners have no chance of winning
Cero nailed it really well. I mean, there really weren't that many of the top foreigners here, if any. I mean, who would compare Attero to MC? The only serious suprises were thorzain and Ret, who both failed majorly in group play, especially Ret, who had a pretty easy group. Nerchio and Dimaga were really the other "Almost top tier" foreigners, and I wouldn't even put them in the top tier level of foreigners. Sure, stephano exited in the round of 16, but so did Hero.
And yes, games being "closer than they look" does matter. Dimaga could have very easily defeated JYP, just as a simple example.
TLDR: You can't take the tournament and say its clear proof. If people like Huk, Idra, Naniwa, or Sen had attended and all exited in the Ro32 it would be pretty good evidence, but comparing MC, MKP, or Hero to the likes of Cloud, Goody, Destiny, or even Darkforce is wrong, and even laughable in my honest opinion. And it's not because they're korean - if you had put players like above, Huk etc in the place of MC and them, anyone would expect similar dominance.
As another example, did anyone look at IPL3 or MLG Orlando etc. and even think that Stephano would win? (Or even Huk, although Huk is pretty damn good). Now, after answering no, (at least to IPL3), did anyone NOT think a korean would take the tournament with a field like this?
Edit: My TLDR wasn't much of a TLDR. The real TLDR: Pitting top koreans against second, or third tier foreigners is a bad idea.
One other edit: By no means do I think foreigners are better. I think Koreans as a whole are definitely better, but I don't think the skill gap between the top tier foreigners and top tier koreans is nearly as high as people hype it up to be. Koreans have a lot more depth though.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater?
naniwa has beaten mvp, drg, and nestea twice in a best of 3. only top korean idra has beaten is bomber in mlg orlando. so... unless u wanna prove me wrong by showing me some other s class koreans idra has beaten.. YES, he is overrated just as much as any other foreigner.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
read my post like 3 above this... and if u still can't accept the facts, just means people like u are stuck believing what u believe, like the flying spaghetti monster.
For your information; I am an atheist and do not believe in the FSM. That you even compare the two not only insults me but your own intelligence, as well - it is apparent that several foreigners (Stephano, Idra, Naniwa and Huk immediately come to mind) are highly capable of beating top level koreans. You will notice that none of the four foreigners I listed (there are more but less consistent ones) all have multiple tournament wins in tourneys more or less packed with Koreans. You may go ahead and claim that koreans are light years ahead of all foreigners all you like, but if you do - you're consciously overlooking major tournament wins that have gone to foreigners. And if you do, it is you who are stuck with a belief, not me.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater?
S/he might also be factoring in Naniwa's MLG Providence #2 and his MLG Global Invitational #1 - both had MVP and Nestea in them. To my knowledge, Idra does not beat MVP or Nestea.
i consider naniwa a better player than idra. I cant remember last when nani lost to idra.
Idra is pretty much overhyped , He left the gsl when jinro was a boss, Times have changed, people are way better now than they were before.
All it takes is like 1 terran full of mind games and idra is out /rage quitting. We know he cant win against toss and his vs Zerg is decent but not on the level of nestea/leenock/losira/drg etc.
To be honest, any of the Code-S or top koreans can win any SC2 league against even the best foreigners. So this OP is kinda moot and given.
If there is anything noteworthy in HSC4 that I think is strategically genius and clever and that analysts and players alike should pay good attention to is this: Notice is how MC excellently paced himself. He cruised the in the stages before the finals, winning just enough but never really doing some stomping. At the group stages, his match record is 2-1 (game record: 4-3 [socke 2-1, stephano 2-0, mkp 0-2]) He then 3-0s Nerchio but still nothing like doing it with pure pwnage intent Then JYP takes him to game 5 (3-2) with games 1-4 very close, and then he unleashes it in game 5. But in the finals, wow! Boy did he bring it all! 4-0 Sound with just pure pwnage everywhere. I think he was carefully concealing some tricks and his true skills so other players will misjudge him. In the finals, most of his build were the same earlier in the tournament, but they were perfectly tighter and down to the last millisecond and his control was just more deliberate. Good metastrategy I guess.
The problem with the usual comparisons between foreigners and Koreans is that the skill gaps between top/mid/low-tier Koreans is much smaller than those between top/mid/low-tier foreigners. The difference between Code A and Code B players boils down to luck and matchups; much of the same applies to the difference between Code A and Code S. So when people say that Stephano, HuK, and Naniwa can compete with the top Koreans, the "top Koreans" are actually a much larger pool than the top foreigners.
Most of the pro-foreigner arguments usually refer to specific tournament results, specific match results, and never address whether those results are exceptions to the general rule. In other words they assume that outliers are the standard.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Right, man doesn't get out of a group with the two arguably best players in the world=throw out, he is trash (IdrA)
Man goes 2-2 against the best players in the whole world, only gets stopped by poor tournament formatting, plus wins back to back events against great players=Bad player (stephano)
Guy gives winner of Kong, Hero of GSTL, and runner-up to the tournament with the best players in the world a run for his money in a close 3-2 series, plus almost all-kills in GSTL=awful player who only wins by surprise. (thorzain)
Everyone saw this coming.. The foreigner field was particularly weak for a tourney of such size, without the likes of Idra, Huk, Sen, Naniwa, Morrow, Whitera et al.
On January 09 2012 11:38 CosmicSpiral wrote: The problem with the usual comparisons between foreigners and Koreans is that the skill gaps between top/mid/low-tier Koreans is much smaller than those between top/mid/low-tier foreigners. The difference between Code A and Code B players boils down to luck and matchups; much of the same applies to the difference between Code A and Code S. So when people say that Stephano, HuK, and Naniwa can compete with the top Koreans, the "top Koreans" are actually a much larger pool than the top foreigners.
Most of the pro-foreigner arguments usually refer to specific tournament results, specific match results, and never address whether those results are exceptions to the general rule. In other words they assume that outliers are the standard.
I agree with the first part at least, I'm not sure about the "outliers." As a whole, Koreans are better, but I think the "top" foreigners can match up with the "top" koreans at least somewhat evenly. There definitely are fewer "top" foreigners though.
On January 09 2012 11:38 CosmicSpiral wrote: The problem with the usual comparisons between foreigners and Koreans is that the skill gaps between top/mid/low-tier Koreans is much smaller than those between top/mid/low-tier foreigners. The difference between Code A and Code B players boils down to luck and matchups; much of the same applies to the difference between Code A and Code S. So when people say that Stephano, HuK, and Naniwa can compete with the top Koreans, the "top Koreans" are actually a much larger pool than the top foreigners.
Most of the pro-foreigner arguments usually refer to specific tournament results, specific match results, and never address whether those results are exceptions to the general rule. In other words they assume that outliers are the standard.
I agree with the first part at least, I'm not sure about the "outliers." As a whole, Koreans are better, but I think the "top" foreigners can match up with the "top" koreans at least somewhat evenly. There definitely are fewer "top" foreigners though.
Again, most pro-foreigner arguments never bother to ask whether Naniwa's wins in x tournament were exceptions and immediately assume they are representative of consistent high-level skill. For all his vaunted wins at MLG (beating a DRG who just threw up is not impressive BTW) he still fails over and over again in Code A and fell apart at the Blizzard Cup. Which results mean more?
I heard some of the foreigners were not in best shape cause they took some days/weeks of over christmas. sc2 is very rnd and it's often the case that a worse player is able to beat a better one cause of build order wins or a lucky timing. Every player is able to beat everyone at such an event. the koreans are stronger and what is even more important they are able to play on a ver high level every game with few errors. The win was well deserved but the foreigners were not showing there A-game so the gap seemed even largen than it is i asume.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
I'm so tired of seeing newbie uneducated posts like this.
People are always so quick to just jump on whatever bandwagon there currently is in the scene. "only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG." I find these sorts of statements absolutely comical. You can judge and decide who the "best" are all you want, but it is constantly shifting. If I had told you how amazing of a player leenock is just a couple months ago (which I was, considering I'd seen him in the korean weekly) you would laugh at me and say "who is leenock? get some real koreans in there like mvp mma etc GG."
The second half of your post is just absolutely comical. "EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans." I guess you didn't watch any starcraft 2 in 2011 LOL
There were two dissapointments to me, thorzain, and ret. Looked like they didn't practice a bit in the holidays, altough I watched alot of ret games when he was streaming, and he did look better, but that's just practice.
Also he seemed very 'behind the scenes' I he was kind of hiding and when he was on camera he looked very sad..
On January 09 2012 11:47 D1C3 wrote: I heard some of the foreigners were not in best shape cause they took some days/weeks of over christmas... The win was well deserved but the foreigners were not showing there A-game so the gap seemed even largen than it is i asume.
lol u serious? Didnt the koreans akso have a holiday break and GSL even to consider before HSC4? This is a lame excuse and a poor attitude towards excellence and competition. We should stop this kind of mentality. If you don't/can't prepare and perform at your best, don't participate man.
I personally don't think the foreigners had their best lineup, a lot of the top foreigner players were missing. Especially those who could manage to beat Koreans. For example, kas, sase, naniwa, idra, huk, mana, morrow, sjow, etc.
I agree with many people in this thread, there were alot of 'code b' foreigners at this event, and you couldn't compare them to 'code s' (koreans that get invites are usually the top of their respective teams/win qualifiers) koreans. I feel like it's korea favoured, but its not as one sided as HSC makes it look.
In all fairness the best foreigners were not there. HuK won last HSC over koreans and a mlg. Similar goes for nani & idra. Not saying Koreans are not better, they are, just best foreigners are in Korea right now.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
On January 09 2012 12:02 tdt wrote: In all fairness the best foreigners were not there. HuK won last HSC over koreans and a mlg. Similar goes for nani & idra. Not saying Koreans are not better, they are, just best foreigners are in Korea right now.
Idk, I'd say stephano is at least as good as all of them atm and he didn't do very well. Plus Huk dropped to Code A so I don't know if he would repeat a similar performance.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Thorzain has done well against Koreans. 3 killed in GSTL, etc.
And Idra losing against the 2 best Koreans so far would mean he can't compete with Koreans? That doesn't make any sense, half of Code S would get stomped by MVP and Nestea 0-2. Not to mention the fact that he was pretty well known in the beta and in BW, so the "nobody knew who they were" argument makes no sense.
On January 09 2012 11:59 Eee wrote: I personally don't think the foreigners had their best lineup, a lot of the top foreigner players were missing. Especially those who could manage to beat Koreans. For example, kas, sase, naniwa, idra, huk, mana, morrow, sjow, etc.
and i also personally believe the koerans didn't have their best lineup either. yet out of the 7 koreans present at the tournament, 6 made it to the top 8 and out of the 25 foreigners at the tournament, 2 made it to the top 8. whats ur point?
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Thorzain has done well against Koreans. 3 killed in GSTL, etc.
And Idra losing against the 2 best Koreans so far would mean he can't compete with Koreans? That doesn't make any sense, half of Code S would get stomped by MVP and Nestea 0-2. Not to mention the fact that he was pretty well known in the beta and in BW, so the "nobody knew who they were" argument makes no sense.
when thorzain was doing well, it was when the koreans didn't really know him too well. once a top foreigner comes about, their playstyle get studied by the koreans and most don't do too well against them afterward. stepano is a perfect example. and i already answered all the idra fan boys. if u want more detail, go back and read my posts.
On January 09 2012 12:02 tdt wrote: In all fairness the best foreigners were not there. HuK won last HSC over koreans and a mlg. Similar goes for nani & idra. Not saying Koreans are not better, they are, just best foreigners are in Korea right now.
These players' international results make you think they can stand on an even footing, but when you look at, say, our superstar foreigner HuK, whom everyone thinks can compete on an equal footing with the Koreans, and his results, you'll actually see that while he has a 62% international win-rate, he also has an absolutely abysmal 44% win-rate in Korea. I know we like to make fun of players like Ensnare and InCa and FruitDealer, but truth be told, even those players we scoff at have significantly higher win-percentages than HuK. (Ensnare and FD at 52%, InCa at 55%.) HuK's win-rate is at Check's level (44%) and lower than even Tester's (46%) and HongUn's (47%) by the time they dropped out. Naniwa's is ... lol, at 7%. IdrA hasn't played in Korea recently, so we'll not look at that, but I think it's safe to say that even our "best" foreigners are painfully mediocre by Korean standards.
EDIT: As clarification, I'm not necessarily comparing current skill here, but just saying that HuK and Naniwa and most of our foreign hopes have had less success than Ensnare in the GSL, which really puts it into perspective.
On January 09 2012 11:46 power-overwhelming wrote: Idra and Huk would not have made that much of a difference. Stephano is currently the best foreigner and even he got stomped
Thank god you mentioned that. Won't somebody please think of Stephano. He's over-hyped and got cleaned this tourney. It's hard to be a fan of someone who still hasn't proven he can change with the meta-game. If he's still Top 5 foreigner by June then he's good, but we've seen players rise and fall.
On topic, koreans can stomp you in SC2 while trying to squeeze a turd out of their ass. With all the practice they do it comes second nature to them. I've heard multiple times in interviewers that foreigners saying they don't practice as much as should. One reason Dimaga always does well is he makes sure he practices at least 8 hours a day. I always look for him at tourneys.
I remembered a time (maybe early middle of last year) when people were hyping about how the skill gap between foreigners and koreans are decreasing. Look at how wrong they were!
I often heard excuses about how in the GSL, the number of foreigners is small and hence it's unsurprising that the koreans dominate the event. However, when koreans have come to foreign tournaments, are outnumbered, but dominate the top placings.
Sometimes we see a "breakout" performance from a foreigner and people start hyping the "new foreign hope". However, the success is usually most likely due to a gimmicky playstyle that is soon figured out.
On January 09 2012 11:59 Eee wrote: I personally don't think the foreigners had their best lineup, a lot of the top foreigner players were missing. Especially those who could manage to beat Koreans. For example, kas, sase, naniwa, idra, huk, mana, morrow, sjow, etc.
Eh not best Koreans either (except arguably MC). No MMA, MVP, Nestea, DRG. This thread is just going to devolve into yelling though.
The skill gap was amazingly huge i have to say, which i though was sad for ages, but i am over it now. If koreans are the best, then let it be, the skill gap is much too big now
I don't know how you would tell if the skill gap were narrowing short of results, and let's face it, foreigners got hammered by Koreans at this tournament. I don't think that means Koreans simply outclass foreigners, but Europeans and Americans have to wear this one. It could be a particularly poor showing, especially since HSC is a tournament where everyone is encouraged to drink and party.
On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote: when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. It was glaringly obvious to me before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that all foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote: when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
Sometimes it helps when you enjoy the job, y'know.
Nobody's holding a gun up to Rainbow's face and telling him to practice, especially since he's on ST, which basically let's its players choose their own practice schedule anyways.
On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote: when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
Haven't you done a few 50+ hour weeks at something in your life (lol France)? Studying or a job? Almost everyone I know has for some period of time even if it was only temporary. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Flash average ~70hrs/wk if they're a month away from a big tourney or something. 60+ hours a week of practicing starcraft sounds infinitely better than 40 hours at a meatpacking plant or outdoor construction in a harsh climate.
Well... this is kind of speculation, but you can get a rough idea by bnet profile match histories and stream channels with timestamp+date of just how much the best Koreans are practicing compared to the best foreigners.
On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote: when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
If they are passionate about improving and being competitive, what is the problem? Many of them choose progaming over university because they love the game. How can you disrespect that? It's not like they are flipping burgers for 50 hours.
I think the foreign bias is pretty embarrassing. Just the fact that the rest of the world besides korea is clumped into one group should tell you something.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
IPL3 1st stephano 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have beenas much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
touchy there huh because the truth hurts.
excuses all around.
No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard.
so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament.
People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses.
Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote: when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
I studied for my PhD qualifying exam for 60-70 hours a week for 6 months. I guess that's pseudo-slavery, eh? Devoting yourself to something because you care a lot about it?
I don't get how anyone can think foreigners are even close to Koreans nowadays. Top foreigners can't beat low to mid Code S Koreans and can't touch guys like Mvp. The gap is 100x more than it was in beta/release.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have beenas much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
I agree with you, but you should understand that your position is not what the original post is about. There are many people that DO pick sides and the predominant one is 'foreigners are awesome'. If you read any of the hype for HSC (or been on team liquid at all really) you would realize this.
It would be awesome if someone would gather together in one place a list of embarrassing hyped predictions that fall terribly off the mark and are conveniently forgotten about in time for the next set of predictions. When you make predictions based on hope and not evidence you should end up looking silly the majority of the time. When predictions are so horribly contradicted by reality it exposes underlying bias and this thread does a great job of bringing it to light.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. It was glaringly obvious to me before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that all foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
There are a select few foreigners who certainly have the ability to over-take the Koreans if they worked on their weaknesses. Eg:
Naniwa: Decision making: He made sooo many terrible decisions in the Blizzard Cup 2011 which threw him away many already won games. MLG Providence Finals FFE every game? =/ Naniwa needs to be more unpredictable, especially in a BO series. With that being said, there are times when I watch Naniwa play and he just looks unstoppable (Providence semi finals), and once he works on his consistency to keep this high level of play up, he will reign supreme.
Idra: Mentality: Calling games early, and being demoralised after losing. He is known to lose a BO series if he loses the first game. Idra has to understand that more often than less, his opponent is also making mistakes and not to call a game early just because he himself didn't play a "perfect game". Idra has the macro of a legend and decent enough micro, once he fixes his mindset, he will go very far.
Huk: Lifestyle: You can see it on his face, he hardly gets much sleep. I believe the night before the recent up & down matches for Code S/A, he went to a party, ultimately losing and being demoted to Code A. Huk has the playstyle and attitude of a champion, he just needs to work on his health and well-being.
In any foreigner tournament you're only going to be getting officer class Koreans competing.
When people say oh only 12% of the people invited were Koreans yet they make up 75% of the top 8 let's actually analyse that.
Did anyone SERIOUSLY expect say... JYP to get knocked out by Destiny or IncontroL?
Ret and Thorzain had shambolic tournaments, Stephano wasn't much better and looked totally off form both days.
Bling could have forced JYP in to a three way time breaker in the original group stges but for one mis control.
Hasuobs and KawaiiRice didn't do too great, but considering Kawaii said it took him 16 hours to get there the day before he played in groups it's fairly reasonable?
When MVP and NesTea were really out of shape last time they travelled to a foreign tourney they both lost to Naniwa and then nearly both got kicked out of by HayprO who proceeded to crash out of dreamhack and HSC.
If there were a vote before the tournament asking which two foreigners would get through to the ro8 i'm pretty sure Dimaga and Nerchio wouldn't have been the two most people chose. By the same token if people had to vote on which Korean they thought wouldn't make it through to the ro8 I don't think most people would have picked HerO.
People try to read far, FAR, FAAAAR to much in too tournaments like this.
There were a few very good foreigners there that have performed well for an extended period of time and would also considered to be on top of their current game. Of that small bunch a large portion also had a really BAD tournament.
Against some of the best Korea has to offer Goody almost beat out two koreans in bio TvP to get out of his group. If he'd have won one more game he'd have knocked either Real or JYP out. Would anyone have predicted that pre-tournament?
Anyone who thinks Foreigners can compete with Koreans is flat out wrong, they completely dominate in their own country (where I highly expect Sen to get smacked down to Code A in a few hours) and win almost every foreign tournament where they send their "A" grade competitors to.
IPL3 and MLG Raleigh are the only really massive events where officer class Koreans have gone over and haven't managed a win (I don't count the Global Invitational with four competitors in two best of threes...)
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote: when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
lol Frenchmen... do they ever do anything but protest and give up? okay, maybe they drink wine once in a while too... sigh
Foreigners performed 100% better than I expected when I saw the second round groups. I expected 1 out of 8 in the top 8, but voila, there were twice as much. Congrats and keep up the good work.
Who cares if idrA/huk/etx weren't there? Because guess what! Neither were MVP/mma/drg/etc! As if Stephano tZ and Ret aren't top foreigners. Stop making excuses
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
I mean, it's expected for Koreans to do well at any foreign tournament, but like it's been said in this thread - most games went down to the wire in a game 3 of a Bo3 where a korean favorite might have been knocked out. It was an enjoyable tournament through and through, and while no foreigner made the top 4, plenty of them showed great games.
On January 09 2012 10:58 Fionn wrote: Koreans are better than foreigners.
Shock, awe and jaw drops commence.
All I have to say to a lot of people is, "I told you so"
I remember back in the day, a lot of people thought that foreigners would be better because mechanics were easier, and foreigners were "better at strategy", therefore "Korean robots" would no longer survive.
And now we all know that's bullshit and just shows how racist we were or still are.
Sure the disparity might be smaller, but comparitively Idra being on the CJ B-team, Nony's courage run, Leg/Android in 2005, etc would suggest that its not much different considering almost nobody played professional BW. Who knows what would have happened if we had the same kind of support back in 2009. Would Nony be on the BW A-team and have televised games, probably, he was definitely in the running for it until he had to go back to the US.
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions"
MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions"
MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have beenas much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
touchy there huh because the truth hurts.
excuses all around.
No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard.
so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament.
People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses.
Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so...
And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 4th set and lost won games tbh. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean.
While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
Anyone that expected the Koreans to lose against this kind of opposition was crazy. I think the foreigners definitely did well, although I'm kind of disappointed with Stephano's play and Thorzain was just... wow. It's funny, I thought that if any foreigner gave the Koreans trouble it'd be those two, but they ended up both bombing out.
Oh shit, you're right. I forgot that he lost that 3rd (?) game somehow.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have beenas much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
touchy there huh because the truth hurts.
excuses all around.
No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard.
so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament.
People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses.
Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so...
And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean.
While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have beenas much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
touchy there huh because the truth hurts.
excuses all around.
No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard.
so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament.
People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses.
Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so...
And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean.
While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions"
MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have beenas much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
touchy there huh because the truth hurts.
excuses all around.
No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard.
so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament.
People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses.
Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so...
And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean.
While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
Tbh, I wouldn't really judge Stephano's performance all that much here. Wasn't he playing completely hungover from drinking too much vodka the night before? If that's true, then he probably has the most substantial "excuse."
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have beenas much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
touchy there huh because the truth hurts.
excuses all around.
No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard.
so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament.
People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses.
Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so...
And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean.
While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
Tbh, I wouldn't really judge Stephano's performance all that much here. Wasn't he playing completely hungover from drinking too much vodka the night before? If that's true, then he probably has the most substantial "excuse."
But It's not like he probably would've won if he hadn't. He lost in Blizzard cup to MC as well.
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions"
MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
Right, so what you're saying is that MC and MKP are okay but:
JYP can't be considered a top player as he's only just got in to a tournament for the best 32 players in the world for the first time
HerO can't be considered a top player as even though he won DreamHack Winter and narrowly missed out on Code S this season in Up/Downs he's actually in Code A when it comes down to it
Sound can't be considered a top player even though he won a tournament with five Code S players in, including the reigning champion of GSL.
I would say five of the seven invited Koreans could be considered VERY high quality while the other two were far from shabby given the over all level of competitors. You say you'd only consider two of them in such a way...
On January 09 2012 13:20 mvtaylor wrote: Bloody hell topics like these are stupid...
In any foreigner tournament you're only going to be getting officer class Koreans competing.
When people say oh only 12% of the people invited were Koreans yet they make up 75% of the top 8 let's actually analyse that.
Did anyone SERIOUSLY expect say... JYP to get knocked out by Destiny or IncontroL?
Ret and Thorzain had shambolic tournaments, Stephano wasn't much better and looked totally off form both days.
Bling could have forced JYP in to a three way time breaker in the original group stges but for one mis control.
Hasuobs and KawaiiRice didn't do too great, but considering Kawaii said it took him 16 hours to get there the day before he played in groups it's fairly reasonable?
When MVP and NesTea were really out of shape last time they travelled to a foreign tourney they both lost to Naniwa and then nearly both got kicked out of by HayprO who proceeded to crash out of dreamhack and HSC.
If there were a vote before the tournament asking which two foreigners would get through to the ro8 i'm pretty sure Dimaga and Nerchio wouldn't have been the two most people chose. By the same token if people had to vote on which Korean they thought wouldn't make it through to the ro8 I don't think most people would have picked HerO.
People try to read far, FAR, FAAAAR to much in too tournaments like this.
There were a few very good foreigners there that have performed well for an extended period of time and would also considered to be on top of their current game. Of that small bunch a large portion also had a really BAD tournament.
Against some of the best Korea has to offer Goody almost beat out two koreans in bio TvP to get out of his group. If he'd have won one more game he'd have knocked either Real or JYP out. Would anyone have predicted that pre-tournament?
Anyone who thinks Foreigners can compete with Koreans is flat out wrong, they completely dominate in their own country (where I highly expect Sen to get smacked down to Code A in a few hours) and win almost every foreign tournament where they send their "A" grade competitors to.
IPL3 and MLG Raleigh are the only really massive events where officer class Koreans have gone over and haven't managed a win (I don't count the Global Invitational with four competitors in two best of threes...)
To be fair, when 2 of those competitors are MVP and NesTea, both 3 time GSL champs, disregarding it out of hand is silly. It had a prize, it mattered, they lost. Best of 3 is pretty crap for a finals, but that's not a good enough reason for you to pretend it didn't happen.
I do think Sen will do better than you give him credit for, because A) he's very good, but mostly B) he only has to prepare for ZvT. Everyone else in his group has to prepare for 2 MUs. This should be a really good GSL however since most players are not coming off a crazy schedule.
Apart from that I agree
Basically Korean teams are only going to send players they feel have a good shot at winning (are really strong right now) because it costs them a lot of money to send that player. Pretty much any Korean at a foreign event will be in great form.
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions"
MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
Right, so what you're saying is that MC and MKP are okay but:
JYP can't be considered a top player as he's only just got in to a tournament for the best 32 players in the world for the first time
HerO can't be considered a top player as even though he won DreamHack Winter and narrowly missed out on Code S this season in Up/Downs he's actually in Code A when it comes down to it
Sound can't be considered a top player even though he won a tournament with five Code S players in, including the reigning champion of GSL.
I would say five of the seven invited Koreans could be considered VERY high quality while the other two were far from shabby given the over all level of competitors. You say you'd only consider two of them in such a way...
And this I really hate.
This BS that the only results that matter, EVER are if a player is in code s or not. Hero can damn well be considered a top player, 'narrowly' missing out on a code s spot can mean anything from 'only just lost to the best players in the world' to 'got blindly meta'gamed by someone'.
GSL, especially last year, was very VERY focused on having a good team of players to prepare you for 2 or 3 games on specific maps against specific opponents for 1 week. The more 'history' of your games are online the bigger your disadvantage. If you compete at foreign events as well as GSL you're at a disadvantage. Which player is better, one that wins GSL code S or MLG via the open bracket? Depends on your metric. Remove MVP from his team and give him no info on his opponents and you have a vastly 'weaker' MVP than the one you see in code s.
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions"
MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
Right, so what you're saying is that MC and MKP are okay but:
JYP can't be considered a top player as he's only just got in to a tournament for the best 32 players in the world for the first time
HerO can't be considered a top player as even though he won DreamHack Winter and narrowly missed out on Code S this season in Up/Downs he's actually in Code A when it comes down to it
Sound can't be considered a top player even though he won a tournament with five Code S players in, including the reigning champion of GSL.
I would say five of the seven invited Koreans could be considered VERY high quality while the other two were far from shabby given the over all level of competitors. You say you'd only consider two of them in such a way...
No I'm saying you quoted a guy saying there were only a couple Code S-class players and acted like he was wrong. Sure the other Koreans are good but not consistent Code S quality. Anyway this is sort of a silly argument since I don't really think there's much disagreement.
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote: Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote: The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Sound and Real were unknowns, and managed to kick ass. Violet wasn't a complete unknown but NO ONE considers/considered him a top korean and hes in code B, yet they all managed to kick ass.
MC got a lot of shit for "falling off" and being "too timing attack oriented" and everyone said he wouldn't win once his style got figured out. MKP is good no doubt, but hes not in the "elite" category of Terran players anymore. JYP is still new, this is only his first Code S season and he isn't a stud yet.
The fact is that not even the top elite koreans can still pwn the crap out of so called "foreigners who can keep up with koreans" like stephano (0-4 vs MKP and MC) and Nerchio.
Great show, so any predictions for HSC5? If I recall correctly, HSC3 purposefully limited the number of Korean competitors(just one).
Will HSC5 go the way of HSC3(just inviting very few Koreans)? I think at this point HSC4 showed everyone a very clear story(no pun intended). Maybe 2012 will be different in closing the skill gap, but I just don't know.
I hear already hear the stirrings of "too many koreans in a non-korean tourney, climbing in yo tourneys, snatching yo prize pool up", honestly if anything it's more fair to minimize the Korean vs. other country and just focus on the players and not their nationalities.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
As usual, koreans destroy another international event.
How long will this domination last? Will the koreans always be on another level? Will foreigners ever be able to step it up and get to the koreans' level? Are the current foreigners actually able to achieve it? Or do we have to wait for a new generation?
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Here's a crazy idea. Maybe foreigners need a longer "best of" format. I am just totally guessing, just thinking maybe something like this would help.
I've heard arguments that BO3 is way too punishing and needs to be minimum BO5 to at least give the underdog a fighting chance to get back into the game. It's not fair for someone to be beat just twice in a row and then he's out.
On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote: Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote: Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote: Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know
So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament).
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Here's a crazy idea. Maybe foreigners need a longer "best of" format. I am just totally guessing, just thinking maybe something like this would help.
I've heard arguments that BO3 is way too punishing and needs to be minimum BO5 to at least give the underdog a fighting chance to get back into the game. It's not fair for someone to be beat just twice in a row and then he's out.
If someone is the underdog I imagine the variance of a BO1 is best for them, since in the long run they should lose.
Lots of good foreigners were absent. Lots of good Koreans attended. These statistics are accurate, but they do NOTHING to show current dominance or skill progression. I'd consider this thread to be rather lame and uninformative, TBH.
On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote: Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know
So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament).
Actually I agree with you for the most part but after Nani beat MVP/Nestea people did just say they were jetlagged and that's why they lost.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote: Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know
So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament).
Actually I agree with you for the most part but after Nani beat MVP/Nestea people did just say they were jetlagged and that's why they lost.
Nestea did perform remarkably poorly during the weekend of MLG Providence, although he's kind of been slumping in general lately too. I wonder if it's appropriate to attribute their losses to jetlag. There were a few games against Naniwa where Naniwa really played flawlessly (note that he's been practicing his ass off in Korea too- even skipping other major tournaments to just train for MLG Providence), and I wonder how many other Koreans had no problem with the trip whatsoever. So I do suppose an excuse was made for those two players (although, of course, Providence was still a Korean victory, so certainly not an example of Koreans all getting stomped by foreigners at a major tournament.)
I got to shake hands and take pictures with MVP and Nestea at the QIM meet, and they seemed to be pretty energetic and laid back as far as I could tell. I'd just as much attribute Nestea's losses to the nestea I gave him than to the jetlag, but I also think that some people were uncomfortable with Naniwa rolling the best Terran and best Zerg in the world.
For the community it is important that some people still believe that the skill gap is small. Thats makes it entertaining... from my point of view the koreans just train harder than foreigners. So they earned every tournament victory! Some of the MC matches there simply won by superior mechanics with really hard aggression.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
I don't get how people say it was "super close"
His game against MMA was an absolute faceroll that gave the impression of being close with MMA's brain fart of donating NaNi two Thors. Meanwhile the game against... Polt(?) could have been close if naniwa hadn't kept pushing in to a one base Terran for no reason. Can't remember the other game... Leenock? but out of the two foreigners to compete in that tournament Stephano covered himself in far more glory and looked far better against Koreans that Naniwa.
Anway, I'm out of this thread as the main point of the thread will get discussed ad infinitum over the year
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
I don't get how people say it was "super close"
His game against MMA was an absolute faceroll that gave the impression of being close with MMA's brain fart of donating NaNi two Thors. Meanwhile the game against... Polt(?) could have been close if naniwa hadn't kept pushing in to a one base Terran for no reason. Can't remember the other game... Leenock? but out of the two foreigners to compete in that tournament Stephano covered himself in far more glory and looked far better against Koreans that Naniwa.
Anway, I'm out of this thread as the main point of the thread will get discussed ad infinitum over the year
Leenock was a base race which naniwa almost won except for a 'brain fart' where he lost a bunch of stalkers into spines and then didn't kill the tech buildings (he went after economy).
Polt game I think naniwa actually made a few too many probes instead of beefing his defence after that push. the push he actually came out pretty close except he had an expansion and polt didn't. they were both losing units, it wasn't 'blind aggression'.
I missed most of MMA game so on that i can't comment.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote: Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know
So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament).
There has never been a tournament where Koreans flew in and got stomped by foreigners. Even tournaments won by foreigners were Korean dominated. Dreamhack Summer: 3 Koreans in the top 4. IPL3: 3 of the top 4, 5 of the top 8. MLG Orlando: 6 of the top 8, 11 of the top 15. The only major live tournament where 3 or more top Koreans attended but did not win the majority of the top spots was IEM Guangzhou, but that was all Idra.
It may look close in the eyes of the noob, but in reality they were further ahead all that times or Koreans are just somehow always lucky to always place top :D!~
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
Most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo3 format, as the earlier rounds of Code A have ALWAYS been.
You're clearly someone who doesn't even follow GSL so you shouldn't even comment.
It's not new. Foreigners have always lost to Koreans because of the work ethic. Nobody that played outside of Korean practicing schedule has won a tournament since the Koreans came over, except Stephano and Idra, both of which are the best of the foreigners.
By the way, the statistics look like some of their ladder ratios on NA and EU lol. Pretty sick.
On January 09 2012 14:44 Al Bundy wrote: Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
Firstly, please note that nowhere did I say that there was a big skill gap, nor did I say Naniwa got crushed.
Secondly as you said, some foreigners can perform well vs. Koreans, and this is great as well as entertaining. But how many of these foreigners can consistently beat the Koreans? Lewan72 has a point here. I think at the end of the day we have to concede the fact that there is a skill gap, and even if it's not that big, it definitely exists.
On January 09 2012 14:57 Mohdoo wrote: Lots of good foreigners were absent. Lots of good Koreans attended. These statistics are accurate, but they do NOTHING to show current dominance or skill progression. I'd consider this thread to be rather lame and uninformative, TBH.
This is such a ridiculous statement. I could just as easily say lots of good foreigners attended and the vast majority of good Koreans were absent. Very mediocre Koreans attended and defeated top foreigners pretty handily.
Think about the situation in reverse. What happens when you throw a handful of top top foreigners in a bigger pool of mediocre Koreans? The "top foreigners" have trouble making it past the first few rounds.
Koreans are way better. They've demonstrated dominance since early 2011. Top foreigners may take games or Bo3s against Koreans, but NO foreigner is anywhere near the level required to win a Korean title, whereas if you throw a decent Code A Korean in with a pool of 31 top foreigners for a 32 man tournament, the Code A Korean is probably a favorite to win.
i kind of expected this, esp with some of the "big name" foreigners missing because they have more important tournaments to be attending shortly (GSL) i.e huk,idra,sen, nani ect.
i did expect stephano to do alot better than he did.. his play seemed... sloppy to say the least, not that i really root for him generally.
nerchio suprised me, he's certainly improved steadily which i like, i really hope he hasn't reached his skill cap and will continue to become a beast :D
dimaga did about as good as i had expected he will be.. he shows glints of brilliance occasionally and plays pretty solid usually but then there are times where he does a belly flop into the pool. I cant really comment as to why he does this but it reminds me of idra actually.
overall it pretty much went as i expected it to.. not that that is what i want. i want more october revolutions damnit!
On January 09 2012 14:57 Mohdoo wrote: Lots of good foreigners were absent. Lots of good Koreans attended. These statistics are accurate, but they do NOTHING to show current dominance or skill progression. I'd consider this thread to be rather lame and uninformative, TBH.
Wow...Nerchio, Stephano, Thorzain, Ret, and Dimaga are all TOP foreigners. If you want to argue with me I can go through and list out all their tournament credentials and compare them to other top foreign players. Just because foreigners got rolled and the likes of Huk, Naniwi, and Sen weren't there, doesn't meant there were no top foreigners. The ignorance in some of these arguments is astounding.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
let me rephrase, violet is a mediocre KOREAN zerg. and just so you won't whine, i'll list the tier 1 zergs for you: 1. nestea (3 time gsl winner, blizzcon 2nd place, blizzard cup), 2. leenock (mlg providence 1st place, gsl nov 2nd place, blizzard cup). 3. drg (iem ny 1st place, mlg providence 3rd, blizzard cup 2nd) 4. losira (gsl july 2nd place, mlg 2nd place) 5. july (fell to code a for the first time this season). violet's peak was in code s july and august and he never even got out of the round of 32. he is a good player. but there is definitely better korean zerg players than him. not so much for hero.
and top 5 korean protoss is not top tier because..... wait i'm not gonna even try to explain. ill let MC explain for me. skip to 31:30 and MAYBE you will understand that being a top 5 korean protoss does not make you top tier in their country.
HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
The foreign players that attended weren't the absolute best cream of the crop ones either, but Nerchio, Stephano, Ret, Socke, Thorzain, Dimaga are probably at least on the same level amongst foreigners as MC is amongst Koreans. Again, as much as HuK, Idra, and Naniwa might be fan favourites, their results - both in Korea and outside of it - aren't exactly much better than those of Stephano or Thorzain. Naniwa is 1-12 in Korea, for god's sake.
I remember the days when TSL 3 was played. Damn the non-korean community went beserk and happy that SC2 will finally be balanced in terms of wins vs Korean players. Players like Thorzain seeing the daylight and all.
I think we can all feel good that the SC goods "favor" Koreans after all and the order in the universe is as it should be
On January 09 2012 16:35 Cereb wrote: This is the same **** after each tournament...
Foreigners win: omg skill cap is closing!
Koreans win: omg we have no chance! koreans dominating sc2 all the time every tournament!
And it's litterally after every single tournament as if suddenly all other results became null and void :/
Yeah, pretty much. Though this time it's about the score in matches and games, which is overwhelmingly bad for foreigners. Makes me think that we (foreigners) usually make big noise from a foreigner winning an event, but don't stop to look at the overall event Kr-Fo stats in maps, which usually isn't pretty even when a foreigner becomes the champ or vice-champ.
I still think that the nerves issue is there against Korean players sometimes. People are making small mistakes that add up in games against Koreans. Although their invincibility is challenged and proven false all the time, there is still an aura. I have seen so many experienced, professional non-Korean players make these mistakes, which they probably wouldn't if they were facing one of their own countrymen or just someone on the ladder.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
let me rephrase, violet is a mediocre KOREAN zerg. and just so you won't whine, i'll list the tier 1 zergs for you: 1. nestea (3 time gsl winner, blizzcon 2nd place, blizzard cup), 2. leenock (mlg providence 1st place, gsl nov 2nd place, blizzard cup). 3. drg (iem ny 1st place, mlg providence 3rd, blizzard cup 2nd) 4. losira (gsl july 2nd place, mlg 2nd place) 5. july (fell to code a for the first time this season). violet's peak was in code s july and august and he never even got out of the round of 32. he is a good player. but there is definitely better korean zerg players than him. not so much for hero.
and top 5 korean protoss is not top tier because..... wait i'm not gonna even try to explain. ill let MC explain for me. skip to 31:30 and MAYBE you will understand that being a top 5 korean protoss does not make you top tier in their country.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
Hasuobs and KawaiiRice didn't do too great, but considering Kawaii said it took him 16 hours to get there the day before he played in groups it's fairly reasonable?
I want to make an indirect response to this, and slightly off topic too, but drives home a good point about the difference in cultural mentality.
There was a time when it was Kawaii's turn to cast, alongside (Im not sure now who but any 2 of these) moman, mrbitter, incontrol, or dimaga. either incontrol or mrbitter turned to kawaii and told how it took kawaii 16 hours to travel and had just literally got there at the start of the tournament. kawaii replied nonchalantly something like "yeah it was 16 hours or so". then again either incontrol or mrbitter tried to make kawaii elaborate on it, implying something like "you must be tired/you didnt get sellp/practice". kawaii would have none of it. he answered sharply something like "yeah the trip was long coz i didnt come from europe, but i had a good rest as i came the day before". and in truth, dennis said earlier that when kawaii arrived, all energy he had was to crash on the couch and wake up the following day in time for the event. That is the correct attitude. I dont know if it is particularly asian/korean (or american, as kawaii legally is). i remember reading somewhere infernal blaming the travel to wcg as the reason he lost. and he lost to Flash, the best progamer in the world. I mean wow! and the game was not even remotely close. can you imagine how others would have responded if they were in a situation similar to kawaii coming in hsc.
the right attitude and mentality is as crucial to success as skills are!
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
Why are you looking at Dreamhack and NASL results of HerO as a means of comparing his results to other Korean Protoss players, when MC is pretty much the only other Korean Protoss we've ever seen abroad?
His winrate in Korea is something like 40% or less, and most of that is playing vs Code A players; while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
MC is a top Korean Protoss because he has an over 60% winrate and is actually able to take a series off the likes of MVP, not because he goes to foreign tournaments and posts funny stuff on twitter. You can't say the same about HerO.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins.
On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
let me rephrase, violet is a mediocre KOREAN zerg. and just so you won't whine, i'll list the tier 1 zergs for you: 1. nestea (3 time gsl winner, blizzcon 2nd place, blizzard cup), 2. leenock (mlg providence 1st place, gsl nov 2nd place, blizzard cup). 3. drg (iem ny 1st place, mlg providence 3rd, blizzard cup 2nd) 4. losira (gsl july 2nd place, mlg 2nd place) 5. july (fell to code a for the first time this season). violet's peak was in code s july and august and he never even got out of the round of 32. he is a good player. but there is definitely better korean zerg players than him. not so much for hero.
and top 5 korean protoss is not top tier because..... wait i'm not gonna even try to explain. ill let MC explain for me. skip to 31:30 and MAYBE you will understand that being a top 5 korean protoss does not make you top tier in their country.
I was going to say that putting July in Top 5 Zerg is facepalm-worthy when I realized there aren't that many Zergs to choose from in the first place, lol. Still, no way is he in better shape than, say, Curious at the moment (who suffers from lack of exposure), past accomplishments notwithstanding. I would hesitate to put him ahead of even Lucky or viOlet given July's shape lately, to be honest. viOlet's clearly good -- I think currently he's easily Code A material if he wanted to give the GSL another try -- but he's teamless and ... not even living in Korea atm.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins.
On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
Wow. lol lets say thats true. That players would rather win WCG then the GSL. Can you not grasp that the gsls format obviously allows for way more preperation then the WCG format. Sigh...
GSL is where you prove you are the best of the best. Everyone knows this. If you don't do well in the GSL then how can people consider you top 5? Even if MVP didn't win WCG, I would still consider him the best player of 2011 because of how well he did in the GSL.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins.
On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
Making it to Code S is not quite the same as actually staying there and beating Code S players consistently. Almost making it, even less so. For the record, there are 8 P's in this GSL Code S, that actually made it, without being 1 win away. Most of them were actually in there for a while, too.
On January 09 2012 16:35 Cereb wrote: This is the same **** after each tournament...
Foreigners win: omg skill cap is closing!
Koreans win: omg we have no chance! koreans dominating sc2 all the time every tournament!
And it's litterally after every single tournament as if suddenly all other results became null and void :/
Yeah, pretty much. Though this time it's about the score in matches and games, which is overwhelmingly bad for foreigners. Makes me think that we (foreigners) usually make big noise from a foreigner winning an event, but don't stop to look at the overall event Kr-Fo stats in maps, which usually isn't pretty even when a foreigner becomes the champ or vice-champ.
It's funny how willing people are to ignore stats. I don't understand this recent foreigner optimism one bit. Ever since IPL3 it's been this almost mob mentality that the foreigners are gonna start winning things. I dunno, it's a bit beyond me, and a bit beyond reality.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins.
On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
Making it to Code S is not quite the same as actually staying there and beating Code S players consistently. Almost making it, even less so. For the record, there are 8 P's in this GSL Code S, that actually made it, without being 1 win away. Most of them were actually in there for a while, too.
Have you ever watched Hero's stream? The best games I have seen him play have been from his stream, not in any of the tournaments he has played (didn't get to watch HSC though). And its not just because his play is entertaining, his multitasking and micro appear to be on a higher level than any other Protoss I have seen when he is on his game.
I actually came to this thread for a reason slightly related to the op, I just wanted to say that in racial terms, this was an extremely balanced tournament, if you look at the distribution each race has half the amount they had in the previous round (rounded up or down) and I thought that was worth taking note of.
No matter which foreigners participate in any tournament, the "best foreigners" will never be there. No matter which Koreans participate in a foreign tournament, they are the top Koreans or an undiscovered gem who ranks up there with the top Koreans.
Instead of speculating, let's start having people put their money where their mouths are. Some poster mentioned that he lost 3000$ in bets during the HSC. If you truly believe that foreigners can go toe-to-toe with top Koreans then start making real wagers. Maybe after the results start hitting where it hurts, people will wake up to reality.
As time goes on, the gap between Koreans and Foreigners will only increase. Foreigners need to practice on the Korean ladder / in Korea / against Koreans to adapt and compete with them. Just practicing locally and playing european ladder is not enough... it is just too easy
I don't see the point about it, even my wife who was looking at the tournament from bit to bit told me about the fact that foreigners were always playing poker or just derping around, while koreans where nearly always playing games or watching replays which is what a professional gamer is supposed to do. They are being paid for that!
Even Stephano played on hungover the second day so...what do you expect? I'm sure most of the people in the house where expecting to get some money on poker or coinflips than in the real tourney.
Unfortunately for the E-sports scene, the HSC4 was great for the games, but terrible for image.
yeah korean dominance is a fact, but i enjoyed delphi vs mkp, and there were many close series as well, so it was exciting and not clear who would advance, goody had me cheering so hard in his final match, same with grubby.
I'm going back through the Mlg Columbus preview thread, and I see hilarious gems like these:
On June 03 2011 03:54 nDragan wrote: This is a great chance for NA players to destroy the stereotype that KR>NA. gl. Can't wait.
On June 03 2011 12:48 Korlinni wrote: I'm ready to see the Koreans get stomped just so they can get off their throne of being better than anyone who is not korean.
i wonder why there are so many saying foreigners can do, foreigners can't do it. If people watch tournaments they should know a few can win bo5s or more againt koreans and that over a longer duration then 1 month. There is nothing else to it. Especially since koreans as well often have their 1 month shiny time. But i guess people still being so rock solid about these korean topic, are immune to any sort of reason, both sides that is. The he is the best player, outside of korea, is something we don't hear in sc2 and imo that is deserved. But that doesn't mean that a few koreans currently are extremely hard to beat for everyone.
You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better. Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins.
On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
Making it to Code S is not quite the same as actually staying there and beating Code S players consistently. Almost making it, even less so. For the record, there are 8 P's in this GSL Code S, that actually made it, without being 1 win away. Most of them were actually in there for a while, too.
Have you ever watched Hero's stream? The best games I have seen him play have been from his stream, not in any of the tournaments he has played (didn't get to watch HSC though). And its not just because his play is entertaining, his multitasking and micro appear to be on a higher level than any other Protoss I have seen when he is on his game.
I actually came to this thread for a reason slightly related to the op, I just wanted to say that in racial terms, this was an extremely balanced tournament, if you look at the distribution each race has half the amount they had in the previous round (rounded up or down) and I thought that was worth taking note of.
This kind of argument really has to stop, seriously guys
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote: You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better. Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
This has some truth in it. Though, Sound/Real/Violet aren't really top players eithers.
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote: You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better. Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
This has happened before. Look what happened to all the top foreigners (Sase, Naniwa, Thorzain) that were seeded in Code A.
Their stats looked horrendous and more often than not didn't even get past the first round.
I would like people who seriously think foreigners are closing the gap to ask themselves how that can possibly be when there's pretty much no foreigner who plays even close to as seriously as even the worst korean players in Code A. We have a few players who can seriously put up a fight in Code A, people like Huk, Naniwa, Idra. Neither of them has a serious chance in Code S at the moment, there's just way too many amazing consistent players, and that's the way way top of the mountain of foreigners. I'm willing to bet there's WAY more Code S and A material in korea than in the whole foreign scene, and it's all because of determination.
Korean players take the game seriously and play it as a job. Foreign "professional" players still play it like a game.
I would like to see this specific of statistics chronologically for 2011 and see if there is any trend of improvement. What the OP states was quite evident to everyone during the tournament, but beforehand there was definitely some hype about the "gap" closing and foreigners being able to perform closer to Korean level. It was still the aura of Koreans are better, however there was definitely a feeling being created that they were manageable.
So um, yeah, someone get working on those statistics, please?
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote: You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better. Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
Be fair instead and look at it realistically. Take 25 top korean players and 25 top foreign players and run a tournament. Can you tell me with a straight face that the stats wouldn't be horrible for the foreigners? Hell, even 25 non-top koreans would embaress the foreign community, just look at Sound vs Stephano. Sound is hardly a top player, but Stephano is supposed to be one, yet the games were quite one-sided.
On January 09 2012 19:32 MrCash wrote: I would like to see this specific of statistics chronologically for 2011 and see if there is any trend of improvement. What the OP states was quite evident to everyone during the tournament, but beforehand there was definitely some hype about the "gap" closing and foreigners being able to perform closer to Korean level. It was still the aura of Koreans are better, however there was definitely a feeling being created that they were manageable.
So um, yeah, someone get working on those statistics, please?
Idra has upper tier Code S level zvt, Code a Zvz and zvp. Huk is borderline Code A. Stephano is Code A level. The rest of the top foreigners-- Kas, Thorzain, Mana, Naniwa, Major, Demuslim, White-ra, and a few others are just under Code A level. The rest will be dominated by most players on a Korean team.
On January 09 2012 19:25 Tobberoth wrote: I would like people who seriously think foreigners are closing the gap to ask themselves how that can possibly be when there's pretty much no foreigner who plays even close to as seriously as even the worst korean players in Code A. We have a few players who can seriously put up a fight in Code A, people like Huk, Naniwa, Idra. Neither of them has a serious chance in Code S at the moment, there's just way too many amazing consistent players, and that's the way way top of the mountain of foreigners. I'm willing to bet there's WAY more Code S and A material in korea than in the whole foreign scene, and it's all because of determination.
Korean players take the game seriously and play it as a job. Foreign "professional" players still play it like a game.
couldnt have said it better than this guy yeah hero won dreamhack but where were the koreans? he beat puma so what puma isnt even in code S or A puma won nasl seriously theres no top koreans in that tournament people keep on saying "but hero won dreamhack his top protoss in the world" uh no his not his just exposed more to the foreigners because his on a foreigner team thats why people think his top protoss people are kidding themselves if they believe foreigners can ever close the gap with koreans... the top starcraft players didnt even transfer over yet and when they do GG to foreigners
people got to realize stephano thorzain dimaga sen arent gonna be the foreigner saviors of sc2 it will be the koreans on foreigner teams that will be
the amount of denial in this thread is laughable. koreans clearly dominate the starcraft 2 scene. they win almost every major tournament in a dominating fashion. im starting to wonder if these people even watch the tournaments lol.. you dont need statistics to show that they kick azz
Koreans are always, and i mean ALWAYS, going to be better than foreigners due to the way they treat the game/progaming. Teamhouses, countless hours of practice etc and the very way they take their career choice as a "progamer" is far above and beyond the way foreigners treat this "game". Foreigners always will be dominated by Koreans in SC2 unless the same work ethic/way the game is treated by corporate sponsors gets carried over to US/EU and that I doubt will ever happen. Foreigners may close the gap and you always will have anomalies like certain foreigner players who perform well consistently against Koreans, but at the end of the day, the average Korean SC2 progamer will be far far far better than the average US/EU SC2 progamer. And also the top foreigner players will always be far below top Korean players.
And for whoever thinks that the "gap is closing", its not getting any closer for sure. Things aren't getting better for foreigners. Koreans on the other hand have players likw TSL_HyuN and OGS.forGG who were average BW progamers, switch over to SC2 and within a matter of 60 days qualify for code A, while people like Jinro/ToD/etc have been playing this game for almost a year if not more, struggle to make it to code A. The difference in skill level is just too much.
We saw top foreigner players losing to people like Violet and Sound at HSC4 - these are the same korean players who have not made a splash at the Korean sc2 scene, so imagine what would happen if we consistently invite MMA/MVP to foreign events. I highly doubt whether we'd see comments at TL regarding "closing the gap".
If anything, I believe 2012 will be another year of continued Korean domination.
Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
what a STUPID comment koreans dont celebrate christmas? thats pretty ignorant i believe and yeah koreans get fatigue of training all day is that there excuse?
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
So do you guys feel that HSCIV as well as the entirety of 2011 is proof that Korea is the only place a foreigner can hope to improve? I've noticed over the past few months on this forum that many were starting to criticize those that were moving to Korea for having not accomplished anything of note.
On January 09 2012 20:08 GunPaladin wrote: So do you guys feel that HSCIV as well as the entirety of 2011 is proof that Korea is the only place a foreigner can hope to improve? I've noticed over the past few months on this forum that many were starting to criticize those that were moving to Korea for having not accomplished anything of note.
if you want to be good you gotta play with good players players arent gonna just improve by playing players worse then them and thats why people go to korea to get good
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
Most of the Koreans took vacations from approximately December 20 to January though
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have a big a meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Roughly 30% of koreans are christian according to recent statistics.. there are probably more christians in korea than many secular european countries.
Which doesn't even matter because its the stupidest excuse I have ever seen.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have a big a meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Roughly 30% of koreans are christian according to recent statistics.. there are probably more christians in korea than many secular european countries.
Which doesn't even matter because its the stupidest excuse I have ever seen.
Yeah if I remember correctly, 70% is still more than 30%, which is exactly what I said. Also I said that it might be a factor, not that it's the reason why koreans are better.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Im pretty sure Koreans celebrate New year like we westeners celebrate christmas. Theres a holiday periode at the end of December in Korea so they must be celebrating something.
There are more Christians in South Korea (the Republic of Korea) than in other asian countries such as China and Japan, so Christmas is celebrated more widely. (Christians make up about 25-30% of the population.) However, the other 70% of people in South Korea are Buddhist (about 25%) or don't have a religion.
Unlike Japan, Christmas is an official holiday - so people do have the day of work and school! But they go back on the 26th (Boxing Day). There's a longer official winter break in the New Year.
Churches are decorated with lights and many have a bright red neon cross on top (all the year!) so that goes very well with the Christmas lights! Most churches will have a service on Christmas day. Going to Church for Christmas is becoming more popular, even among non Christians.
Department stores put on big displays of decorations. There's also an amazing display of lights in the capital city, Seoul. The lights are all over the city centre including the bridges over the Han River.
Wiki says:
Korean New Year, commonly known as Seollal (Hangul: 설날; RR: Seollal; MR: Sŏllal), is the first day of the lunar calendar. It is the most important of the traditional Korean holidays. It consists of a period of celebrations, starting on New Year's Day. Koreans also celebrate solar New Year's Day on January 1 each year, following the Gregorian Calendar. The Korean New Year holiday lasts three days, and is considered a more important holiday than the solar New Year's Day.
--Edit--
i will make the bold statement that even if HSC4 would have happend in 3 months from now the results would be the same...
It doesn't come to a surprise that the Koreans are doing better, because they practice hours on end in team houses while most foreigners have jobs or are in school.
I suggest we start replacing the term foreigners with 'the guys that don't practice' and Koreans with 'the guys who are actually serious about being a pro-gamer'.
It is sad in a way that we root for the lazy guys when there are guys out there who are actually willing to sacrifice many other things in order to be good at SC2.
Well isn't it 100% obvious that koreans are better? But the exciting thing for me is that foreigners can consistently take games off and have really close games with most of the best koreans excluding very best.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Yes, because assuming that a mainly non-christian country does not celebrate Christmas is ignorant... Also, your video proves nothing, it only shows that some people do celebrate Christmas in korea (There are Christians everywhere). Does not mean that the players themselves celebrate Christmas.
And to those yelling self-denial... Did you watch the tail end of the sc2 scene in 2011? Was ANY tournament as dominated by koreans as this was? In what tournament did 50% of the Koreans finish above any foreigner?
So, it's not self-denial, it's just me examining the facts. Stop being an elitist asshole just because you're korean, you're countriemens accomplishments are not your own.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Yes, because assuming that a mainly non-christian country does not celebrate Christmas is ignorant... Also, your video proves nothing, it only shows that some people do celebrate Christmas in korea (There are Christians everywhere). Does not mean that the players themselves celebrate Christmas.
And to those yelling self-denial... Did you watch the tail end of the sc2 scene in 2011? Was ANY tournament as dominated by koreans as this was? In what tournament did 50% of the Koreans finish above any foreigner?
So, it's not self-denial, it's just me examining the facts. Stop being an elitist asshole just because you're korean, you're countriemens accomplishments are not your own.
im not christian but i celebrate christmas? is that really wrong? idiot.. first of all how many koreans are in foreigner tournaments? ill start off with some NASL i believe there were 2 KOREANS and what place did they get top 1-2 simple just like that how many koreans were in homestory cup like 6? and they all got into top 8 dreamhack there were like what 4 koreans or whatever what were the results top1-2 MLG-GSL exchange program what was the top3s mostly all koreans your facts are as dumb as you saying foreigners are on christmas break didnt know christmas break lasted for 1 year
I think that 2 things cause this dramatic domination of koreans: 1. Luck. As simple as that. Having watched a lot of games i felt like there were tons of games that came down to little things, which are not in the hands of any player. SC2 is based a lot around that and this tournament it turned out, that the koreans were more lucky (maybe forced luck?). Of course this doesn't mean that in other circumstances it would be 50:50 between foreigners and koreans. 2, Probably the bigger issue was that the atmosphere of the tournament caused many foreigners to take it less seriously as they were in for fun and social interaction. I think it comes with korean progamer culture that they want to win every game and are more willing to neglect things like partying, fooling around and such, compared to the european and american progamers.
edit: feel free to ignore my post and focus on braindamaging discussions about christmas.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
Wow.Are you a troll? You are just sad that your favourite foreigners did not beat the Koreans.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Yes, because assuming that a mainly non-christian country does not celebrate Christmas is ignorant... Also, your video proves nothing, it only shows that some people do celebrate Christmas in korea (There are Christians everywhere). Does not mean that the players themselves celebrate Christmas.
And to those yelling self-denial... Did you watch the tail end of the sc2 scene in 2011? Was ANY tournament as dominated by koreans as this was? In what tournament did 50% of the Koreans finish above any foreigner?
So, it's not self-denial, it's just me examining the facts. Stop being an elitist asshole just because you're korean, you're countriemens accomplishments are not your own.
Not only christians celebrate christmas, here in malaysia where theres few christians, we all still celebrate it.....
On January 09 2012 21:51 TigerKarl wrote: I think that 2 things cause this dramatic domination of koreans: 1. Luck. As simple as that. Having watched a lot of games i felt like there were tons of games that came down to little things, which are not in the hands of any player. SC2 is based a lot around that and this tournament it turned out, that the koreans were more lucky (maybe forced luck?). Of course this doesn't mean that in other circumstances it would be 50:50 between foreigners and koreans. 2, Probably the bigger issue was that the atmosphere of the tournament caused many foreigners to take it less seriously as they were in for fun and social interaction. I think it comes with korean progamer culture that they want to win every game and are more willing to neglect things like partying, fooling around and such, compared to the european and american progamers.
edit: feel free to ignore my post and focus on braindamaging discussions about christmas.
The second issue I pretty agree on but the first issue for koreans dominating is LUCK?? Seriously? Koreans are better than foreigners because they have better working ethics and treat "progaming" as serious as a career.They dun dominate based on "luck".They dominated based on "skill".Those little things could mean that Koreans making less mistake or better decision making than foreigners. Thats why they dominate the SC2 scene.Period
Actually most koreans looked very vulnerable, Sound always barely edging out a 2-1, MC would've lost against Cloud if he didn't choke harder than you'd think possible.
I think it speaks volumes that JYP dropped a game to Goody's bio. BIO!
As already mentioned, it probably came down to luck more than anything. I mean, MKP and MC definetly are on a different skill level, but the other koreans really aren't.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
IPL3 1st stephano 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean
MLG Orlando 1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th idra 5th korean 6th korena 7th korean 8th korean
Dreamhack Summer 1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean
note: only 3 koreans in this tournament but they took top 4 placings
Dreamhack Valencia 1st korean 2nd ThorZaIN 3rd korean 4th korean
note: again only 3 koreans and all took top 4 placings
i give it to you for TSL3 where koreans placed like shit. but its an online event not LAN.
I am unsure what you are arguing against - we are not discussing overall placements, in which case there would be no disagreements, as the average Korean is ten times stronger than the average foreigner, but he stated that Koreans 100% were going to win all tournaments they participate in. I proved him wrong. 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. place finishes have nothing to do with that, and I never said anything on the matter.
On January 09 2012 21:51 TigerKarl wrote: I think that 2 things cause this dramatic domination of koreans: 1. Luck. As simple as that. Having watched a lot of games i felt like there were tons of games that came down to little things, which are not in the hands of any player. SC2 is based a lot around that and this tournament it turned out, that the koreans were more lucky (maybe forced luck?). Of course this doesn't mean that in other circumstances it would be 50:50 between foreigners and koreans. 2, Probably the bigger issue was that the atmosphere of the tournament caused many foreigners to take it less seriously as they were in for fun and social interaction. I think it comes with korean progamer culture that they want to win every game and are more willing to neglect things like partying, fooling around and such, compared to the european and american progamers.
edit: feel free to ignore my post and focus on braindamaging discussions about christmas.
The second issue I pretty agree on but the first issue for koreans dominating is LUCK?? Seriously? Koreans are better than foreigners because they have better working ethics and treat "progaming" as serious as a career.They dun dominate based on "luck".They dominated based on "skill".Those little things could mean that Koreans making less mistake or better decision making than foreigners. Thats why they dominate the SC2 scene.Period
Please don't quote my post if you don't mean to argue about what i said. I never pretended that foreigners are the same level as koreans, i said that a good portion of luck caused this brutal dominance to be bigger than what we would have expected, based on resent results in big tournaments.
Oh for fucks sake: Foreigners are still lazy, they still don't live in team houses and most of them still practice mainly on ladder. Koreans are still dedicated, they do live in team houses and they don't care about ladder. The elite foreigners can hang around mid-low code s level while almost all other foreigners are code b or worse. And if you start arguing that it's luck that koreans are almost always on top you might as well say that mlg orlando was pure luck, or nerchio beating a hero that is known to have really bad nerves is also luck...
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Most people who does not give a shit about Jesus and christianism still celebrate Christmas dude. Most friends of mine and I for instance. Self-denial? lol
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Yes, because assuming that a mainly non-christian country does not celebrate Christmas is ignorant... Also, your video proves nothing, it only shows that some people do celebrate Christmas in korea (There are Christians everywhere). Does not mean that the players themselves celebrate Christmas.
And to those yelling self-denial... Did you watch the tail end of the sc2 scene in 2011? Was ANY tournament as dominated by koreans as this was? In what tournament did 50% of the Koreans finish above any foreigner?
So, it's not self-denial, it's just me examining the facts. Stop being an elitist asshole just because you're korean, you're countriemens accomplishments are not your own.
The video actually proves a lot since the place in the video is swamped from morning till night and that's only one of the places for Christmas.
"these results don't count" - then what counts? Give me a list of dream team foreigners. Only then, would it count? And should we be purposefully not inviting players like MC? This can run in circles forever - HSC4 did a good job of player selection, and that's what you guys have to live with. certain players didn't play(IdrA, Naniwa)...why is that HSC4's fault? NO NO NO don't be telling me that IdrA "isn't top tier foreigner".
"he lost against goody's bio" - I didn't see that game. I just don't like the tone of that though. so what if goody was known for mech play(but even he, was forced to make the switch to bio). But why are you discounting goody as a player?
"foreigners doesn't lose that badly" - This is the same thing as my bronze buddy playing a single ladder match, loses, and then tells me "i lost. but i didn't lose that badly". You are the same people who would come back with "there are only winners and losers bronzie. and you're the loser". I have to repeat this right back as it applies to HSC4. There are only winners and losers. And the Koreans won. No I'm not trying to be offensive here.
"X foreigner almost won vs X korean, he wasn't DOMINATED, the games were close" - If a 4-0 isn't "dominating", I don't know what is. being 3-1'ed...still pretty owned...see above. let me guess, you're about to cite the individual match now. again...see above
"stephano drank too much, not his fault" - there's a little something called personal responsibility. esp when the prize pool was as enormous as this one was. Oh oh oh everyone bought him shots? again - there are ways of refusing...why...was he afraid of being shunned by his peers(who just so happened to be competing against him) unless he showed in a manly way that he could hold his liquor against big guys like MC?
"koreans are just LUCKY" - the very same "luck" that enabled MC, Nestea, MVP to repeatedly win GSL's, right? Oh hang on you're saying it's only situational like korean vs foreigners, or only situations like here in HSC4. Well if that's what you truly believe, wow I guess we foreigners have no chance in hell then. Where, oh wherefore can we find this magical luck romeo? None of this nonsense skill stuff of course.
On January 09 2012 21:51 TigerKarl wrote: I think that 2 things cause this dramatic domination of koreans: 1. Luck. As simple as that. Having watched a lot of games i felt like there were tons of games that came down to little things, which are not in the hands of any player. SC2 is based a lot around that and this tournament it turned out, that the koreans were more lucky (maybe forced luck?). Of course this doesn't mean that in other circumstances it would be 50:50 between foreigners and koreans. 2, Probably the bigger issue was that the atmosphere of the tournament caused many foreigners to take it less seriously as they were in for fun and social interaction. I think it comes with korean progamer culture that they want to win every game and are more willing to neglect things like partying, fooling around and such, compared to the european and american progamers.
edit: feel free to ignore my post and focus on braindamaging discussions about christmas.
1) If it was luck, over the long run, foreigners and Koreans would have pretty equal win rates. This is obviously not true.
2) That probably played more of a part than anything, but you always hear about MC going off and playing poker so it's not that obvious they weren't enjoying themselves.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
IPL3 1st stephano 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean
MLG Orlando 1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th idra 5th korean 6th korena 7th korean 8th korean
Dreamhack Summer 1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean
note: only 3 koreans in this tournament but they took top 4 placings
Dreamhack Valencia 1st korean 2nd ThorZaIN 3rd korean 4th korean
note: again only 3 koreans and all took top 4 placings
i give it to you for TSL3 where koreans placed like shit. but its an online event not LAN.
I am unsure what you are arguing against - we are not discussing overall placements, in which case there would be no disagreements, as the average Korean is ten times stronger than the average foreigner, but he stated that Koreans 100% were going to win all tournaments they participate in. I proved him wrong. 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. place finishes have nothing to do with that, and I never said anything on the matter.
Don't you think that's a pretty dumb thing to argue? It's obvious that Koreans don't win 100% of the tournaments, bring up one result and there, he's wrong. Why argue against someone that's obviously making a blanket statement and be like yup I'm right.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
1. Myeong-Dong is always packed, doesn't have to be a holiday. 2. In Korea, Christmas Eve is like a dating day. You hang out with your GF/Friends. It's not a family centred tradition like it is in the west where you stay with your family, maybe for a whole week.
That said, reasoning that foreigners underperformed because of the holidays is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
1. Myeong-Dong is always packed, doesn't have to be a holiday. 2. In Korea, Christmas Eve is like a dating day. You hang out with your GF/Friends. It's not a family centred tradition like it is in the west where you stay with your family, maybe for a whole week.
That said, reasoning that foreigners underperformed because of the holidays is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
1. Yeah but Christmas Myeong-Dong is like 500% normal for the entire day 2. This is p true, New Years is the family holiday.
I really don't like the term "foreigner hope". This crown of thrones, that's bequeathed to the most recent foreigner with impressive wins versus Korean opponent, sets up an unrealistic expectation that can't possibly be lived up to. Because of this label, whenever their predecessors are in a slump or don't live up to this expectation, they are considered disappointments to entire segments of the foreign community who buy into this narrative.
For a "foreigner hope" to really live up to this label, after receiving this label, they'd have to probably win at least another two tournaments within a year which had a reasonably good crop of Korean Code S/A players. What player can really do that? MVP, Nestea, MMA? That player would have to be a top 5 player in the world.
Besides that, "the foreign community" isn't really just one community. As someone from the US, I hardly know the European scene. I know some of the bigger names, but there's probably not a single player that I've seen 10 games from. If a bunch of great German or Swedish players dominate a tournament, do I feel alot better? No, not unless it was someone like TLO, who as an individual player, I like watching him play as he plays zerg as I do, and as a person, he seems to be a decent fellow.
At best the foreigner vs Korean is the forseeable endless spiral of "foreigners are closing the gap" vs "Koreans are dominant". At worst it's stems into racism, an unfortunately natural offshoot from having a collectivist mindset. This is just my opinion, but I'd suggest other fans to not fall into the foreigner-vs-Korean abyss. Find some other reason to root for players, you'll find yourself rooted on more firm ground as a fan.
* Don't read, if you don't like seeing caster criticism. + Show Spoiler +
When I watch HSC4, and I'm watching an amazing series of Dimaga vs JYP, and I get to listen to Grubby drop knowledge bombs left and right, do I enjoy it when Mr.Bitter is basically there to verbally praise Dimaga's every move, and then listen to his "I'm sorry but is just bullshit" type of statements when JYP wins a tense battle with an epic engagement*? No, I'm not even listening to a commentator, I'm listening to a cheerleader who's mic'd up, while Grubby is basically analzying a series better than any caster out there.
I realize casters' love to portray haters using their best douchebag voice "Oh, Mr. Bitter, he's so biased". I understand bias, commentators are human, we all have players we root for. I've never had problems with any casters before (Artosis casting idra), and I don't follow Mr.Bitter. However, listening to someone just openly root for someone, to the point it's like verbally fellating them, then QQ imbalance or whine when things don't go that player's way, it's just hard to listen to.
I don't care when casters have players they want to see win, I don't want to listen to a cheerleader.
Of course they won, why wouldn't they have? Not much at all has changed in the past year as far as the foreigner scene is concerned, so it makes sense that the Koreans are as far ahead as they always were.
And when you do watch the games, it becomes really easy to see how much more refined their play is, and how much better their mechanics are. Sound, a Code B Korean, basically got to the finals on the strength of clever 1 base all-ins and good macro. In the GSL, this probably wouldn't have been enough, but against foreigners it scored him a ton of easy wins. And indeed, MC absolutely stomped him in the finals.
Really, just don't expect anything from foreigner not training in Korea. Occasionally there will be a breakout victory (Stephano at IPL3), but you simply cannot be consistent without proper practice.
Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
Well that's gotta suck for Naama and Stephano then cause they're supposed to be PROFESSIONAL SC2 players. If they can't even focus on that, well then... welp
Also
On January 09 2012 23:15 Sawry wrote: I have a pet peeve.
I really don't like the term "foreigner hope". This crown of thrones, that's bequeathed to the most recent foreigner with impressive wins versus Korean opponent, sets up an unrealistic expectation that can't possibly be lived up to. Because of this label, whenever their predecessors are in a slump or don't live up to this expectation, they are considered disappointments to entire segments of the foreign community who buy into this narrative.
For a "foreigner hope" to really live up to this label, after receiving this label, they'd have to probably win at least another two tournaments within a year which had a reasonably good crop of Korean Code S/A players. What player can really do that? MVP, Nestea, MMA? That player would have to be a top 5 player in the world.
Besides that, "the foreign community" isn't really just one community. As someone from the US, I hardly know the European scene. I know some of the bigger names, but there's probably not a single player that I've seen 10 games from. If a bunch of great German or Swedish players dominate a tournament, do I feel alot better? No, not unless it was someone like TLO, who as an individual player, I like watching him play as he plays zerg as I do, and as a person, he seems to be a decent fellow.
At best the foreigner vs Korean is the forseeable endless spiral of "foreigners are closing the gap" vs "Koreans are dominant". At worst it's stems into racism, an unfortunately natural offshoot from having a collectivist mindset. This is just my opinion, but I'd suggest other fans to not fall into the foreigner-vs-Korean abyss. Find some other reason to root for players, you'll find yourself rooted on more firm ground as a fan.
* Don't read, if you don't like seeing caster criticism. + Show Spoiler +
When I watch HSC4, and I'm watching an amazing series of Dimaga vs JYP, and I get to listen to Grubby drop knowledge bombs left and right, do I enjoy it when Mr.Bitter is basically there to verbally praise Dimaga's every move, and then listen to his "I'm sorry but is just bullshit" type of statements when JYP wins a tense battle with an epic engagement*? No, I'm not even listening to a commentator, I'm listening to a cheerleader who's mic'd up, while Grubby is basically analzying a series better than any caster out there.
I realize casters' love to portray haters using their best douchebag voice "Oh, Mr. Bitter, he's so biased". I understand bias, commentators are human, we all have players we root for. I've never had problems with any casters before (Artosis casting idra), and I don't follow Mr.Bitter. However, listening to someone just openly root for someone, to the point it's like verbally fellating them, then QQ imbalance or whine when things don't go that player's way, it's just hard to listen to.
I don't care when casters have players they want to see win, I don't want to listen to a cheerleader.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
I'd put Nani above Huk tbh, Huk hasn't won or done anything in a while
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
I'd put Nani above Huk tbh, Huk hasn't won or done anything in a while
What has Naniwa done? Probe rushed? Went 1-12? or something like that in Korea?
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
I'd put Nani above Huk tbh, Huk hasn't won or done anything in a while
What has Naniwa done? Probe rushed? Went 1-12? or something like that in Korea?
2nd at the toughest MLG of the year, beating top koreans on the way, more than what Huk has done in a while
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
Ok, but then don't call those guys interested in partying and getting drunk "professional gamers" call them "guys which are good at Sc2 and can get some profit for it"
Koreans are good because they think SC2 is a job, not a hobby with profit. Working mentality, practise and talent are needed to succeed. Unfortunately, most of the foreigners in the house lack some of those pillars.
Time always get the wheat out of the chaff.
I mean, if I arrive drunk/on hungover at my work and my company loss money due to my poor performance, I will surely get fired. But it seems in foreigner progaming, it is not only allowed but cheered.
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
I'd put Nani above Huk tbh, Huk hasn't won or done anything in a while
What has Naniwa done? Probe rushed? Went 1-12? or something like that in Korea?
2nd at the toughest MLG of the year, beating top koreans on the way, more than what Huk has done in a while
Still hasn't won anything. I still can't imagine putting him ahead of HuK after watching him get manhandled in Korea.
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
I believe you may have been duped. Some robots operate on alcohol (e.g. Bender from Futurama), so it is possible that these Europeans who were chugging alcohol are actually robots refueling. It would explain why the foreigners haven't quite caught up to their Korean human counterparts, as we all know that robots will not surpass humans until the year 2050.
That is why they are only operating at 30%, not due to drinking alcohol, but because the technology to process and convert alcohol into energy for their circuitry is not quite there yet. Granted, robots are pretty advanced, as they have beaten inferior humans like myself at both chess and starcraft. SC2 is most likely an training regimen for the eventual robot takeover against mankind. Until they know they can beat the Koreans, they will discretely assimilate themselves as fun loving gamers.
Spread the word, and most importantly make sure to ... 0101110000101 ..... error.
As Incontrol often commented, the games were often closer than the final score.
Can you explain what you mean by this? Are you saying he favored the foreigners in his casting so it felt closer? (I didn't watch)
Just means that the games themselves were close, I'd say go watch them when you have a chance. Nerchio almost won quite a few of the games he lost.
Sure, but he lost.
Would've, Could've is pointless...
No it's not, because we're discussing the skill of the players, in which case there is a considerable difference between a 4-0 where one player floundered, and a 4-0 where the loser nearly won a couple of the games.
It's already been said several times, but yeah, of course Koreans are better than foreigners. There's a reason the entire SC2 foreign community freaks out for weeks every time a non-Korean wins something -- it's an unexpected result.
I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: -Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record -Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head -Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG.
On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote: But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft.
what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD.
we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain).
when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
I'd put Nani above Huk tbh, Huk hasn't won or done anything in a while
What has Naniwa done? Probe rushed? Went 1-12? or something like that in Korea?
2nd at the toughest MLG of the year, beating top koreans on the way, more than what Huk has done in a while
Still hasn't won anything. I still can't imagine putting him ahead of HuK after watching him get manhandled in Korea.
Second at the most stacked tournament MLG of the year is not nothing. He lost a lot of Code A matches months ago, then he came and beat Nestea twice, beat MVP, Huk and DRG. And then if you actually watch the games from the Blizzard Cup every single game he lost was ridiculously close. He didn't get manhandled by anyone's standards, he actually came within a hair's width of beating Leenock, MMA and Polt.
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
I've like...never seen any of these used. Except maybe the top two, and only when it's actually true. We all know Koreans are better. No one has ever contested that. I don't know, maybe some kid did once in an LR thread. Who cares.
It's actually Korean fanboys who were always making the excuses on the occasions that Koreans do not dominate. Like the much maligned lag explanations from TSL3, or the jetlag ones when Idra beat MC, the 'Nestea and MVP weren't here so it doesn't count' ones from every tournament a foreigner did well in, ever.
Frankly I thought we'd moved past the point of childishly taunting eachother about this bollocks. We've had enough international tournaments to get used to the idea that most of the time koreans will do really well but that foreigners have a select few people who will occasionally completely smash it and end the eastern domination. Can we stop trying to annoy eachother now?
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
I've like...never seen any of these used. Except maybe the top two, and only when it's actually true. We all know Koreans are better. No one has ever contested that. I don't know, maybe some kid did once in an LR thread. Who cares.
It's actually Korean fanboys who were always making the excuses on the occasions that Koreans do not dominate. Like the much maligned lag explanations from TSL3, or the jetlag ones when Idra beat MC, the 'Nestea and MVP weren't here so it doesn't count' ones from every tournament a foreigner did well in, ever.
Frankly I thought we'd moved past the point of childishly taunting eachother about this bollocks. We've had enough international tournaments to get used to the idea that most of the time koreans will do really well but that foreigners have a select few people who will occasionally completely smash it and end the eastern domination. Can we stop trying to annoy eachother now?
All of them besides the Code A/B player excuse were used in this thread and almost every other LR thread that involves Korean vs foreigner games. This compilation is actually spot on...
Come on guys! These foreigners are PROFESSIONAL players who get paid to play! If you can't even concentrate, remain sober, have time for practice, long trip, different atmosphere, happy with with performance by finishing last in the tournament, dog ate homework, whatever retarded excuse, don't play. Simple as that. Improve and keep up, or shut your mouth. The power is yours!
Hereunder, a collection of the most in-denial, most lolworthy posts, so far.
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote: You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better. Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
On January 09 2012 21:57 shizna wrote: the OP is a bit fail imo... the out of context results don't really speak for anything.
ret, stephano, thorzain and a few other foreigners clearly underperformed... so you can't really count their results.
MC is far better than anyone else that attended the tournament, so counting his results is like counting a grandmaster versus a bronze leaguer.
real and violet have been training outside korea for months, strictly they should be counted as foreigners.
On January 09 2012 21:51 TigerKarl wrote: I think that 2 things cause this dramatic domination of koreans: 1. Luck. As simple as that. Having watched a lot of games i felt like there were tons of games that came down to little things, which are not in the hands of any player. SC2 is based a lot around that and this tournament it turned out, that the koreans were more lucky (maybe forced luck?). Of course this doesn't mean that in other circumstances it would be 50:50 between foreigners and koreans. 2, Probably the bigger issue was that the atmosphere of the tournament caused many foreigners to take it less seriously as they were in for fun and social interaction. I think it comes with korean progamer culture that they want to win every game and are more willing to neglect things like partying, fooling around and such, compared to the european and american progamers.
edit: feel free to ignore my post and focus on braindamaging discussions about christmas.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
not part anymore of the collection
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: -Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record -Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head -Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
LOL Thanks for this. You should make this as a guide/flowchart! The reasons foreigners lose to koreans is everything other than that the koreans are waaaaaaaay better than them!
The best foreigners in terms of recent results against Koreans didn't show up with the exception of Stephano. Huk, Naniwa, and Idra weren't there, while the at same time we had some top level Koreans show up.
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: -Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record -Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head -Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
LOL Thanks for this. You should make this as a guide/flowchart! The reasons foreigners lose to koreans is everything other than that the koreans are waaaaaaaay better than them!
Well thats true obviously. But when foreigner wins tournament there are very similiar excuses flying around. Just dont make any excuses and accapet results for what they are.
Nice. this thread went from stating facts to the usual foreigner vs korean debate to religious holidays in korea. what a shocker. TL mods shut down this thread? -_-
On January 09 2012 11:22 Kahmoon wrote: I think a lot of you are misunderstanding the OP. A lot of the hype beforehand, and a lot of people's predictions, said that foreigners were going to take down the Koreans. That didn't really happen. Sure, there are a lot of people claiming that "Obviously the Koreans would win" after the fact, but there were significantly fewer saying that beforehand. (Like pretty much always...) You could say that this thread is about the hope based predictions of the (foreign)-community, and the sometimes quite unreasonable foreigner bias that is the probable reason for that.
Well duh, this is nothing new in any sport community. People make predictions based on their hopes and not by "realism," and most are fully aware of that their prediction are not the most likely outcome. The error lies in people like the op that for some weird reason take offense to this.
On January 10 2012 00:14 BronzeKnee wrote: The best foreigners in terms of recent results against Koreans didn't show up with the exception of Stephano. Huk, Naniwa, and Idra weren't there, while the at same time we had some top level Koreans show up.
Please, Sound is Code B and ripped Stephano a new one. How is your excuse even close to valid. Just because a top korean shows up to a tournament, top europeans lose to mediocre koreans?
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
I've like...never seen any of these used. Except maybe the top two, and only when it's actually true. We all know Koreans are better. No one has ever contested that. I don't know, maybe some kid did once in an LR thread. Who cares.
It's actually Korean fanboys who were always making the excuses on the occasions that Koreans do not dominate. Like the much maligned lag explanations from TSL3, or the jetlag ones when Idra beat MC, the 'Nestea and MVP weren't here so it doesn't count' ones from every tournament a foreigner did well in, ever.
Frankly I thought we'd moved past the point of childishly taunting eachother about this bollocks. We've had enough international tournaments to get used to the idea that most of the time koreans will do really well but that foreigners have a select few people who will occasionally completely smash it and end the eastern domination. Can we stop trying to annoy eachother now?
All of them besides the Code A/B player excuse were used in this thread and almost every other LR thread that involves Korean vs foreigner games. This compilation is actually spot on...
My point was really; who fucking cares what some idiots say in the LR threads. I could just as easily go back to threads about a tournament that koreans didn't dominate and compile a list of korea-fanboy excuses but it's pointless because focusing on those people starts a ridiculous childish pissing contest. We all know koreans are better, we should let foreigner fans enjoy it when foreigners win and ignore the ones making up weird explanations when they don't.
Regardless of the statistics a lot of the play was rather appaling from most of the foreigners. A lot of favorites to do good such as thorzain, ret, stephano etc just had a rare game which looked okey. The rest were just really off.
I think that people are often surprised by the lack of success from foreigners because it's harder for koreans outside of korea. What I mean is that NaNiwa for example has far better results against koreans in TLPD inter than in korea, and for any foreigner you have a better chance of winning against koreans outside of korea. Therefore koreans don't dominate foreigners as hard in europe/usa tourneys as they would in GSL, because of travel/jetlag/no preparation/they are only few or whatever. But at HSC the foreigners did very well, especially Nerchio since he is not training in korea. When more foreigners will be in korea (the ones who really want to succeed, badly, the likes of NaNiwa and Huk) these will be able to compete, the others might take series but it's very unlikely, and it will be harder for those who won a tourney with eu training (Stephano) to win another one, because when you are not an unknown anymore you have to train in korea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
Yes, because assuming that a mainly non-christian country does not celebrate Christmas is ignorant... Also, your video proves nothing, it only shows that some people do celebrate Christmas in korea (There are Christians everywhere). Does not mean that the players themselves celebrate Christmas.
And to those yelling self-denial... Did you watch the tail end of the sc2 scene in 2011? Was ANY tournament as dominated by koreans as this was? In what tournament did 50% of the Koreans finish above any foreigner?
So, it's not self-denial, it's just me examining the facts. Stop being an elitist asshole just because you're korean, you're countriemens accomplishments are not your own.
User was warned for this post
newsflash, u dont have to be christian to celebrate christmas *gasp
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
This made me lol the most today, why is it so hard for people to just acknowledge that koreans are so much better than foreigners and just the creme de la creme ( aka Huk Idra Naniwa) can compete with the average code a/s pros.
Also the argument about koreans, not having a social life and they're not enjoying themselfes, rofl MC stomped nerds left and right while playing poker and stuff. You might remember that MKP and MC goofed around during the cast and had a great time and I don't think there's anything wrong with no drinking while you're still in the tournament. I'd rather win 7500€ and drink next weekend rather than flying all the way to germany to get wasted instead of doing your job as an sc2 professional gamer.
This tournament just proved what we already knew, that the Koreans are ahead. Don't make such a big deal of the final standings though, as we've seen before, the performance of players at HSC varies a great deal depending on how people approach the competition. HSC II was a hilarious example of this.
Sooo Koreans are far ahead of foreigners. Newsflash!
Edit: To elaborate: Since sc2 is quite a volatile game (at least right now) Koreans will lose games to some foreigners. If we reach a point when most of the time, the better player wins, 99% of the foreigners stand no chance.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Man this is some real drivel. First some excuses for Dimaga then saying that top foreigners can take games of koreans whenever they want? So they don't want to all the time, that's the problem with foreigners? They just don't want to win games against koreans...
On January 09 2012 23:20 Jermstuddog wrote: @Sawry
Mr. Bitter tried to get away from the balance discussion as quickly as possible.
His "bullshit" statement was his poor Zerg heart breaking.
Perhaps he should have been a bit more professional and never let it slip in the first place, but this is HSC after all.
bitter, professional?
Haha, nice one
Anyways, the funniest thing about HSC and pretty much every other western tournament is that despite the solid results of the Koreans there are still people who genuinely believe and argue that Western players are as skilled as the Koreans. That Christmas argument ( or excuse rather) that someone bought up is absolutely hilarious for example.
At this point its sad for the western 'scene' when six out of seven participating Koreans take the first spots in a tournament.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
One thing I'd like to point out is that Goody took 2 games off of Korean Protosses. With pure bio play. If that isn't crazy I don't know what is.
Foreigners might not have won many series, but they put up a good showing compared to Koreans. I think MC vs Cloud is a good example of that. Cloud made a lot of dumb decisions, but so did MC, and as a result the series was 2-1. There was no obscene 21-0 record like Leenock at MLG (or whatever the actual number was)
On January 10 2012 01:52 RoboBob wrote: One thing I'd like to point out is that Goody took 2 games off of Korean Protosses. With pure bio play. If that isn't crazy I don't know what is.
Well he got lucky bunkers up on one map and on the other one the protoss fucked up as well, doing some shitty blink allin into dt, while goody was supply blocked for literally 2mins. So although those are some fun trivia, he really didn't show any good play.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
That's not even true. The best foreigners can compete with the best Koreans right now. That said, the best Korean players are going to win a large majority of games played, but they are out of the foreigners league yet. Top level SC2 has yet to be seen.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
except top 32 Westerners cant even compete with top 200 KR GM ladder and those who can CANT get trough code A qualifiers
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
read the post i quoted, he said basically top foreigners could win WHENEVER THEY WANT. Of course i know its complete crap. If anything he actually said there a skill gap, but in favor for foreigners which sounds even more hilarious.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
They're not winning GSL's because they rarely try for it. Compare the number of koreans with the number of foreigners that tried to qualify for Code A since 2010: it's probably 1% foreign players and 99% koreans.
If Europe had it's own GSL, it will be very hard for koreans to win it. They will need to move in Europe for at least a month and go through a lot of top players.
When 95% of the GSL players are koreans, it's pretty obvious the foreign players have no chance.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break
I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 3, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
I think it was mostly #4 that he had an issue with, you appear to say both that foreigners have won tournaments and yet it is 100% certain that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. Which, even if they had won every tournament ever, wouldn't be true.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break
I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all
Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo.
Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea. Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG. GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc.
Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
I feel like Koreans are much more stable than foreigners. They don't suddenly start to make a lot of mistakes in tournaments. This tournament was clearly dominated by Koreans, but I don't think it looks as bad for the foreigners as it seems after the tournament.
There were a lot of close games/series which mostly went in favor of the Koreans with only some exceptions (Delphi vs MKP). I also think the foreigners should do more aggressive/all-in stuff, because it's much more likely that the one who defends makes more mistakes than the one who attacks, just because it's not part of his strategy. They should definitely take more risks in tournaments. Sometimes it looks bad (Violet losing to 4 hellions, MKP losing to two all-ins with a super greedy build against Delphi, Real loosing against Goody with a Blinkstalker All-In), but most of the time I felt that the one who took bigger risks won the game. You can't play safe against everything.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break
I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all
Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo.
Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea. Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG. GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc.
Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
First, you say that Naniwa and SaSe didn't prepare too much for code A so that's why they did poorly and then you say that Naniwa rolled both MVP and Nestea in MLG. I could argue that both MVP and Nestea didn't prepare for MLG at all. What now?
I am not saying that they didn't prepare. I'm just pointing out that your argument is not a good one.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
They're not winning GSL's because they rarely try for it. Compare the number of koreans with the number of foreigners that tried to qualify for Code A since 2010: it's probably 1% foreign players and 99% koreans.
If Europe had it's own GSL, it will be very hard for koreans to win it. They will need to move in Europe for at least a month and go through a lot of top players.
When 95% of the GSL players are koreans, it's pretty obvious the foreign players have no chance.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all.
But they got MLG seeds, so many of them did not bother trying for Code A. And you're basing something off of a hypothetical with no support for yourself. It's not that hard to imagine a few Koreans deciding to stay in Europe and winning that European GSL. Hell, someone made a point earlier that when it's 5% Koreans, they have a good chance of winning it all yet foreigners doing the same means they have no chance.
And one last thing, there's a problem with being the very best, which is your just easily snipe-able since your playstyle is more scrutinized. But throw someone like Slayers Golden out and you don't know that much about him and he's gonna go kill top foreigners left and right. I personally think someone unknown like Sound would actually do better than Nestea/MVP against top foreigners actually for that reason.
The only thing I really have that much disagreement with in the OP is the bit about "unreasonable foreign bias". Yeah a lot of people are biased towards players but thats a perfectly reasonable position to hold, its called being a fan. People will always support the guys they like and will often exagerate because of this but so many people around dont seem to comprehend this and are way to eager to overanalyse and argue and bicker.
Its apparant to everyone that in general there are a larger number of good korean players, but its also apparant that they arnt completely untouchable. So if a few people have a good feeling about a game and think an upsets going to happen, dont shit all over them and tell them theyr idiots. They arnt, theyr just fans.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break
I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all
Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo.
Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea. Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG. GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc.
There's just so much wrong in this short passage.
Naniwa did not "roll" either MVP or Nestea. He won a Bo3 against both of them 2-1, then beat Nestea again 2-1. If your little excuse about not preparing applies to Code A, why does it not apply to either MVP or Nestea at MLG? naniwa, MVP and Nestea were all jetlagged, with it being Nestea's first time outside of Korea (IIRC), and MVP's third (after Blizzcon/MLG). Naniwa is used to the transition in timezones, whereas neither Nestea nor MVP are.
Nestea is not "the best Korean" any more, although MVP definitely is.
None of those players have been in a finals for more than half a year. Half a year is a big deal in SC2 terms. Half a year ago, GSL was not comparable to nowadays.
On their best days, the best foreigners can compete with some of the top Koreans when they are playing poorly, normally in their worst matchup (MVP in PvT, MC in PvP when it was coinflippy as hell). It requires phenomenal luck for even the top foreigners to do well against top Koreans.
Korea is still well ahead of the rest of the world, with the only "Korean Killers" having brief moments of success that people cling to because they want to believe that foreigners = Koreans. They don't. There is no foreigner who has been able to consistently beat top Koreans for a long time, with the only supposed "consistent" player being Huk, a consistency which is a complete illusion (going from winning MLG Orlando to losing to Darkforce in EU tourneys a couple of weeks later).
Huk, considered the best foreigner by a lot of Koreans (interviews etc) is pretty good, but not even in the Top 10 players of the world. People have become so used to Koreans winning that they consider minor success like Huk's equivalent to consistent foreign success on par with Koreans. That has never been the case, and with the possible BW A-teamers switching over, quite probably never will be.
On January 10 2012 02:28 cyclone25 wrote: Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
Do you actually expect MKP and MC to reply to an interview in a country outside Korea on a topic about the difference between Koreans and foreigners that "lolwut, Koreans PWN foreigners! We have way more skills than them."?
One thing that is a sure indicator of this skill gap other than tournament performance - did you notice how the casters got may things wrong about what koreans, specifically MKP and MC were doing. For instance, there Game 4 in the Grand Finals where MC pushed with, as far as I remember, a zealot and a stalker to set up 4 gate, and Incontrol was like "lol Sound is gonna rape this army. And 10 seconds later Sound ggs. Jaws dropped, MrBitter didn't even have a chance to say anything. The players didn't know exactly what happened. And this is not one time, and Incontrol was specifically guilty of this calling the game many many times far different than what the plan or outcome would be. Another is MKP, I don't remember exactly which one now, but I think I was a game vs violet what Violet has the entire midgame swarm and MKP had 5ish marines, 2 marauders, and a hellion (or something like this). He held, but with great damage, as he lost 5-10 scvs in the process. Everyone, even Grubby (really smart player) thought it was going to be over, but guess what, MKP won, defending the roach zergling baneling push everytime with impeccable army control until his econ kicked in. There are a whole lot other games.
And while we are at it, why not talk about the skill itself. Can you imagine Naniwa, or even Huk, do the sick sick forcefield + split army that MC did in one of the games? Or any foreigner terran controlling a 5 unit army and make it do damage as if it were a 20 unit army like MKP?
What I find ridiculously illogical is how blindly biased some people are. When people say a korean pro lost because of jetlag or because it's an online tournament with terrible lag--they get shot down by foreigner-fanboys. But the fact of the matter is, MC came back to 4-0 Idra after a night of rest, and the korean pros have dominated streaks of LAN tourneys where the lag disadvantage is gone. These "excuses" have supporting evidence for not being a load of bull.
On the other hand, foreigners have had varying conditions as well but time and time again their failure to win regardless of these conditions has done little to support the claims of jetlag, an unfamiliar environment, and whatnot. Saying that a 3-0 score is a lot closer than it looks is also getting to be a tiresome claim. If it was really that close, then the 3-0 result wouldn't always be in favor of the korean pro. I can't even think of a time off the top of my head where a korean lost to a foreigner 0-2 or 0-3 and viewers said, "well the games were a lot closer than the score!"
I like a few foreign pros and I'm happy to cheer them on--but seeing some people delude themselves about their favorite player or scene makes me feel like a fool for supporting the same.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Man this is some real drivel. First some excuses for Dimaga then saying that top foreigners can take games of koreans whenever they want? So they don't want to all the time, that's the problem with foreigners? They just don't want to win games against koreans...
exactly.
These are just excuses being made. If these foreigners can "take a game off korean whenever they want"...why didn't it just plain happen? They didn't want the money or the victory enough? wow.
On January 10 2012 02:28 cyclone25 wrote: Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
Do you actually expect MKP and MC to reply to an interview in a country outside Korea on a topic about the difference between Koreans and foreigners that "lolwut, Koreans PWN foreigners! We have way more skills than them."?
One thing that is a sure indicator of this skill gap other than tournament performance - did you notice how the casters got may things wrong about what koreans, specifically MKP and MC were doing. For instance, there Game 4 in the Grand Finals where MC pushed with, as far as I remember, a zealot and a stalker to set up 4 gate, and Incontrol was like "lol Sound is gonna rape this army. And 10 seconds later Sound ggs. Jaws dropped, MrBitter didn't even have a chance to say anything. The players didn't know exactly what happened. And this is not one time, and Incontrol was specifically guilty of this calling the game many many times far different than what the plan or outcome would be. Another is MKP, I don't remember exactly which one now, but I think I was a game vs violet what Violet has the entire midgame swarm and MKP had 5ish marines, 2 marauders, and a hellion (or something like this). He held, but with great damage, as he lost 5-10 scvs in the process. Everyone, even Grubby (really smart player) thought it was going to be over, but guess what, MKP won, defending the roach zergling baneling push everytime with impeccable army control until his econ kicked in. There are a whole lot other games.
And while we are at it, why not talk about the skill itself. Can you imagine Naniwa, or even Huk, do the sick sick forcefield + split army that MC did in one of the games? Or any foreigner terran controlling a 5 unit army and make it do damage as if it were a 20 unit army like MKP?
Violet should've won that game, but he had utterly fail micro in the engagement.
The only difference between players is which strategies they use. Once Koreans find a good strat (1-1-1 or 4gate) they will USE IT AS LONG AS IT WORKS, while many players will try to practise other strategies/divert from that. Also HSC4 was awesome. Statistics are a bit interesting though, the most is the "every Korean got out of his group".
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break
I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all
Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo.
Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea. Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG. GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc.
Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
Yes Koreans are very modest and respectful to the foreign players who are fledgling progamers at best. You can look at interviews and I will look at results: Koreans out-skill, out-muscle and out-man foreigners. The gap isn't close to what it is in Broodwar but it is substantial enough that Koreans hardly ever lose bo5 and still rarely lose bo3.
And to the guy who said something about a "European GSL" I would expect the result to be just like almost every other international tournament. 5% of the players will be Koreans and 80% of the top5 spots will occupied by those Koreans. A foreigner will never win GSL not because it is all occupied by Koreans but because they aren't good enough.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
"sad" "pathetic" "has not followed the scene" "ignorant" "ill-informed" All obfuscations. All words. I gave you something specific to answer as a proof of all those things you are saying about me.
I repeat: I challenge you. Answer them, or make haste and be gone!
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
Of course it's not 100% anyone saying that is an idiot. At the same time anyone who thinks foreigners are just as good as Koreans (overall) is just as big an idiot.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I can't dig anymore the page where I made the reply on a reply to the same post, but as I remember, I wrote it like this:
hyperbole, dude, hyperbole.
cmon guys you dont have to be literally literal. Nothing in life is 100% certain! Except that foreigners are nowhere near koreans skillwise at this point in time. Thats 100% :p
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not far ahead of foreigners.
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners.
And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners!
I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
On January 10 2012 02:52 Jeity wrote: What I find ridiculously illogical is how blindly biased some people are. When people say a korean pro lost because of jetlag or because it's an online tournament with terrible lag--they get shot down by foreigner-fanboys. But the fact of the matter is, MC came back to 4-0 Idra after a night of rest, and the korean pros have dominated streaks of LAN tourneys where the lag disadvantage is gone. These "excuses" have supporting evidence for not being a load of bull.
On the other hand, foreigners have had varying conditions as well but time and time again their failure to win regardless of these conditions has done little to support the claims of jetlag, an unfamiliar environment, and whatnot. Saying that a 3-0 score is a lot closer than it looks is also getting to be a tiresome claim. If it was really that close, then the 3-0 result wouldn't always be in favor of the korean pro. I can't even think of a time off the top of my head where a korean lost to a foreigner 0-2 or 0-3 and viewers said, "well the games were a lot closer than the score!"
I like a few foreign pros and I'm happy to cheer them on--but seeing some people delude themselves about their favorite player or scene makes me feel like a fool for supporting the same.
I'm starting to feel that this blind bias and complete denial is just people masking their disappointments with anything they can muster in an attempt to explain the situation.
When people see scores like 4-0 or anything-0, it rattles them to the core and makes them question their own beliefs.
If the finals looked more like 3-2 or 4-3 or whatever, then yes we can comfortably say that foreigners really do deserve a seat at the table alongside Koreans. But when we see crazy results like 4-0, this throws everything up into question.
to see your favorite player anything-0'ed is incredibly disappointing and many here would rather believe it didn't happen at all. So therefore "it doesn't count".
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners.
And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners!
I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'.
4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head).
So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
except top 32 Westerners cant even compete with top 200 KR GM ladder and those who can CANT get trough code A qualifiers
just some food for thought
Top 32 Westerners haven't all gone to Korea (in fact, very, very few have).
All the top Westerners that have gone over to Korea have made it into the KR GM without much trouble.
And a number of good Korean players haven't gotten into Code A either (Puma anyone?).
As I've said before, anyone pretending foreigners can consistently beat MVP, Nestea, etc. are delusional. But anyone pretending that everyone in GSL Code S is completely untouchable to anyone from outside Korea is equally blind.
On January 10 2012 02:52 Jeity wrote: What I find ridiculously illogical is how blindly biased some people are. When people say a korean pro lost because of jetlag or because it's an online tournament with terrible lag--they get shot down by foreigner-fanboys. But the fact of the matter is, MC came back to 4-0 Idra after a night of rest, and the korean pros have dominated streaks of LAN tourneys where the lag disadvantage is gone. These "excuses" have supporting evidence for not being a load of bull.
On the other hand, foreigners have had varying conditions as well but time and time again their failure to win regardless of these conditions has done little to support the claims of jetlag, an unfamiliar environment, and whatnot. Saying that a 3-0 score is a lot closer than it looks is also getting to be a tiresome claim. If it was really that close, then the 3-0 result wouldn't always be in favor of the korean pro. I can't even think of a time off the top of my head where a korean lost to a foreigner 0-2 or 0-3 and viewers said, "well the games were a lot closer than the score!"
I like a few foreign pros and I'm happy to cheer them on--but seeing some people delude themselves about their favorite player or scene makes me feel like a fool for supporting the same.
I'm starting to feel that this blind bias and complete denial is just people masking their disappointments with anything they can muster in an attempt to explain the situation.
When people see scores like 4-0 or anything-0, it rattles them to the core and makes them question their own beliefs.
If the finals looked more like 3-2 or 4-3 or whatever, then yes we can comfortably say that foreigners really do deserve a seat at the table alongside Koreans. But when we see crazy results like 4-0, this throws everything up into question.
to see your favorite player anything-0'ed is incredibly disappointing and many here would rather believe it didn't happen at all. So therefore "it doesn't count".
Talking about 3-0 and 4-0's, how about Stephano 4-0 vs Lucky in the IPL final, IdrA 3-0 vs Puma, Huk 4-1 MC at MLG and another 2-0 one month later?.
You forgot these pretty fast, eh?
Nerchio got some pretty bad maps vs MC and it's also his worst matchup. I'm sure he would have rolled Sound too in the final.
On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote: [quote]
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners.
And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners!
I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'.
4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head).
So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now. I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago, but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
IPL3 1st stephano 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean
MLG Orlando 1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th idra 5th korean 6th korena 7th korean 8th korean
Dreamhack Summer 1st HuK 2nd korean 3rd korean 4th korean
note: only 3 koreans in this tournament but they took top 4 placings
Dreamhack Valencia 1st korean 2nd ThorZaIN 3rd korean 4th korean
note: again only 3 koreans and all took top 4 placings
i give it to you for TSL3 where koreans placed like shit. but its an online event not LAN.
I am unsure what you are arguing against - we are not discussing overall placements, in which case there would be no disagreements, as the average Korean is ten times stronger than the average foreigner, but he stated that Koreans 100% were going to win all tournaments they participate in. I proved him wrong. 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. place finishes have nothing to do with that, and I never said anything on the matter.
Don't you think that's a pretty dumb thing to argue? It's obvious that Koreans don't win 100% of the tournaments, bring up one result and there, he's wrong. Why argue against someone that's obviously making a blanket statement and be like yup I'm right.
I would feel inclined to agree with you if we were talking about one or two tournaments. However, a significant amount of tournaments have been won by foreigners. The percentage is not near that of the Koreans (30-70, maybe? 25-75? Something like that), but it is still not something to shrug off. Other than that, though - statements like his bug me. I've never understood exaggeration, and claiming "100% Koreans win everything lul" seems stupid to me.
Umm I dunno why people are surprised. Some of our best foreigners didn't even go. MC and MKP are two of the best koreans in the world. Could say that naniwa, morrow, idra, huk all weren't at HSC..... its really not that big of a shocker that the best player there won the tournament.
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers...
If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well.
I think one of the early posts in the thread really sum it up.
If Naniwa, Idra, Sen, Stephano, HuK, White-Ra, Mana, SaSe and the other top foreigners went to the GSL, and all had to go through the ordinary qualification process, I doubt people would say they have a great shot at winning. Sure, they might make some splashes but I would bet good money against them. It might even be that someone wins one, but I think if there were 10 or so GSL's with a foreign contingent of this caliber, Koreans would win 9 or so.
If the "top" koreans (the distinction between top and quite good is fairly arbitrary, I think) show up to a tournament, I would say they have a great chance of winning even if they are in the minority. In fact, even with sub 25% attendance I would guess they would win 7 or so of the MLG's or IPL's. Yes, the foreigners could stop them. but more often they would lose.
The gap is not "foreigners cannot possibly beat koreans" as it was in BW. Instead, it is that foreigners are, on average, a lot worse, and the best foreigners are probably not quite as good as the best Koreans. Perhaps one or two foreigners are as good, but more Koreans are at that level.
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers...
If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well.
Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea.
There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans.
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers...
If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well.
Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea.
There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans.
You're totally right but some people still think that Koreans are these mythical monsters that are born with starcraft skills
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers...
If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well.
In no other (e)sport is one nation so dominant, though. In Starcraft, "Korean" has become a synonym for "brutally good".
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers...
If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well.
Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea.
There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans.
Well then, if SaSe, Stephano, Ret, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Sheth, Banjo, ToD, Grubby, Sjow, Sen, Fenix, Morrow, Demuslim(2012) are to be considered Koreans for 2012 then yeah, things look indeed grim for the foreigner scene which will be represented by Nerchio and Beastyqt alone.
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers...
If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well.
Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea.
There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans.
Well then, if SaSe, Stephano, Ret, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Sheth, Banjo, ToD, Grubby, Sjow, Sen, Fenix, Morrow, Demuslim(2012) are to be considered Koreans for 2012 then yeah, things look indeed grim for the foreigner scene which will be represented by Nerchio and Beastyqt alone.
Huk, Idra, Sase and a few others are already pretty much on their level. I don't think the others have trained there long enough for it to pay off.
On January 09 2012 11:06 ilsamsamchil wrote: I just lost a $3000 bet I made after reading TL preview =\
No offense to TL writers, but how on earth can you look at only one source, on such a shaky platform as a single tournament for the basis of risking so much money? Reading one article that says you should bet one way or another is always bad. Look at multiple sources. Look at the inclinations of the sources you look at.
On January 10 2012 03:59 K3Nyy wrote: Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
Are you serious? Yeah, foreigners in Korea are "Korean"...except they don't speak the language, can only scrape by when it comes to strategy discussions, very few have dedicated teams they can spend all of their time practising with, most are only getting a few months benefit of the infrastructure that Korean players have had for all their careers...
If a Japanese basketball player comes to the USA and becomes a superstar, no one pretends that he's suddenly an American just because he does well.
Except when we refer to Koreans, we refer to their skill level, not necessarily their ethnicity. When Select was in the US, we considered him a foreigner, not a Korean (in terms of skill) because he didn't practice in Korea.
There's nothing special about Koreans in general, it's that they practice so damn hard. It's not surprising that someone like Huk goes over into Korea, he suddenly does well and beats Koreans.
Well then, if SaSe, Stephano, Ret, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Sheth, Banjo, ToD, Grubby, Sjow, Sen, Fenix, Morrow, Demuslim(2012) are to be considered Koreans for 2012 then yeah, things look indeed grim for the foreigner scene which will be represented by Nerchio and Beastyqt alone.
I can't believe what I'm reading. Koreans are better than foreigners because of their korean training(team houses, better ladder etc). Using HuK's victory at dreamhack or HSC as an argument that foreigners can compete with koreans is ridiculous though
I think it is surprising when foreigners go to Korea and are able to succeed in that environment.
In addition to the usual reasons given (i.e. language barriers, culture shock, missing home) which are all legitimate, I think successful foreigners often do not have the constitution necessary to succeed in the type of practice regimen that Korean teams adopt. The reason is that the skill set necessary to become a successful foreigner is different than the skill set necessary to become a top Korean.
If I am from Korea and the most accessible tournament is the GSL the path to becoming a progamer is obvious: practice hard enough for a team to notice you and pick you up, then practice even more and do well in the GSL. There is an hierarchical system already in place, ready to reward the most diligent players. Thus, those that come out on top are not only talented: they have also worked very, very hard. And those just below them, the not-quite Code S players, have also worked hard and are also talented. This system leads to a deep, powerful scene where every player is of superior quality.
Foreigners, on the other hand. practice less on average. I am not trying to criticize their work ethic: if one does not have to practice as hard to succeed why should they? However, the side effect is that many players who are talented, but not necessarily unbelievably motivated, are capable of rising to the top. At least when compared to the very top of the Korean scene, it is likely that their work ethic is merely adequate, rather than superb.
That is why I find HuK so remarkable. While it is certainly no surprise that he could rise to the top with sufficient practice, the very fact that he can practice so much is extraordinary.
On January 10 2012 04:22 Fourn wrote: Why do people say Naniwa can put up a fight in Code A when he's never made it past the round of 32?
Why did people think Leenock deserved Code S though he never made it for a long time? Don't base your opinion on 3 matches. Naniwa has proven elsewhere.
On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote: [quote]
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners.
And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners!
I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'.
4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head).
So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
According to you, Puma or Violet are foreigner players then?
On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote: [quote]
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners.
And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners!
I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'.
4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head).
So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
Most of them don't even count. Huk is a Korean in terms of skill level. Naniwa won his after he went to Korea. There's a reason why they do well when they go to KOREA.
It's just dumb to put Huk in the foreigner section when he lives and trains with the Koreans.
Count how many foreigners have won after they've never been to Korea and you probably only have Stephano, who is probably the best foreigner. (not in Korea)
According to you, Puma or Violet are foreigner players then?
Well Puma is in Korea. I dunno about Violet.
But look at Idra when he left Korea, his skill clearly declined. He went from "Korean" skill level to foreigner.
On January 10 2012 04:22 Fourn wrote: Why do people say Naniwa can put up a fight in Code A when he's never made it past the round of 32?
Why did people think Leenock deserved Code S though he never made it for a long time? Don't base your opinion on 3 matches. Naniwa has proven elsewhere.
Your question is completely irrelevant. Leenock clearly deserved Code S and proved he did when he made it to the Code S finals. He was also in Code S originally, dropped to Code A, and made the Ro4 twice losing to MKP and Ganzi.
His 1-12 GSL record says hi, that's more than 3 matches in case you were wondering. Naniwa has yet to prove he deserves to compete in Korea, evidenced by his lackluster performances thus far.
Here is the most recent interview with MVP and a question on this matter:
"Q : What do you think about skill-level of foreign players? I thought that they play really well from the full league qualifiers. I treated them as if I was playing a Korean player. SuperNoVa and MKP didn't get knocked out because they underestimated foreign players, foreign players showed their skills."
MarineKing lost 0-2 to Kas and SuperNova 0-2 to Titan. Mvp also had trouble vs MacSed and BlinG, winning 2-1 in close games. This tournament was played in Korea, and koreans did pretty bad vs foreigners that are not considered top 5.
On January 10 2012 04:59 cyclone25 wrote: Here is the most recent interview with MVP and a question on this matter:
"Q : What do you think about skill-level of foreign players? I thought that they play really well from the full league qualifiers. I treated them as if I was playing a Korean player. SuperNoVa and MKP didn't get knocked out because they underestimated foreign players, foreign players showed their skills."
MarineKing lost 0-2 to Kas and SuperNova 0-2 to Titan. Mvp also had trouble vs MacSed and BlinG, winning 2-1 in close games. This tournament was played in Korea, and koreans did pretty bad vs foreigners that are not considered top 5.
First of all, let me say that I'm not biased towards the koreans nor the foreigners, I don't care about where the players are from, I just want to watch good games.
MVP's answer is very professional, and as expected from a pro, he approaches every game in a serious manner and doesn't underestimate his opponents; nonetheless I don't really see how it is relevant to the matter at hand. As for the part about Supernova and MKP, he is right: the foreigners they played against are skilled. But then again, if they weren't skilled, they wouldn't be able to compete at this level.
Now to me, it seems that the information you did post is just anecdotal evidence, it doesn't indicate that foreigners can defeat Koreans on a consistent basis. If anything, it just tells us that foreigners are indeed able to take some games off of Koreans, and nothing more. It doesn't reflect any tendency.
Furthermore, just to put things in perspective, while Titan isn't exactly a top player, Kas on the other hand is a total beast. He's currently #1 foreigner according to International TLPD.
All in all we should take your post with a grain of salt. It is right when it says that foreigners are skilled, but it does not mean that foreigners can consistently win vs. koreans. Even among the top tier, there is still a hierarchy if you will.
On January 10 2012 04:22 Fourn wrote: Why do people say Naniwa can put up a fight in Code A when he's never made it past the round of 32?
Why did people think Leenock deserved Code S though he never made it for a long time? Don't base your opinion on 3 matches. Naniwa has proven elsewhere.
because he was actually in code s before he dropped to code a and played consistently well in it
This should've been expected. Four code S level players typically destroy everything except each other. Fortunately, four code S level Koreans don't often feel like hopping on a plane halfway around the world to a single foreigner event.
You can't compare Korean and Western Brood War players. One is a professional gamer in a team house with coaches that practices 12 hours a day and the other a hobbyist that is isolated and has to prioritize finishing his homework/university assignments. If Korean players wouldn't dominate then the game would simply not be worth the time.
In Starcraft 2 the Western scene has gotten a lot more professional, the game is still more volatile and less focused on mechanics, the Korean players aren't necessarily the best Korean RTS gamers and a lot of Western players have had the benefits of Korean practice. Obviously they are going to do a lot better in comparison to Brood War.
It's actually shocking Western players still do so badly. NA and Europe together is, what, like 20 times as high population as Korea? RTS games are not as popular here, but still, it seems like there's new Korean talent popping up like every week, outpacing new Western talent. I think maybe it's what someone else said: the type of player that is good in the West and can consider being a pro-gamer is maybe not ideally suited to a pro-gaming life, not being as motivated/willing to practice, while only people who practice often rise to the top in Korea.
On January 10 2012 05:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: This should've been expected. Four code S level players typically destroy everything except each other. Fortunately, four code S level Koreans don't often feel like hopping on a plane halfway around the world to a single foreigner event.
There were only 3 Code S players at HSC. JYP, MKP, MC.
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
On January 10 2012 05:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: This should've been expected. Four code S level players typically destroy everything except each other. Fortunately, four code S level Koreans don't often feel like hopping on a plane halfway around the world to a single foreigner event.
There were only 3 Code S players at HSC. JYP, MKP, MC.
Code S level. I count Sound as performing at that level considering who he beat in both the championship and qualifiers, as well as his degree of dominance over quite a few of his opponents.
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
And then you look at the tournaments foreigners won and you see it looks something like this 1. foreigner (probably huk, naniwa, idra, or stephano) 2. korean 3. korean 4. korean 5. foreigner (one of the above) 6. korean 7. korean.
10. lowest placing korean
Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
So the hardest, most prestegious and the one that cares the most you just don't count? Yea, i am sure you get fair results...
On January 10 2012 06:36 Let it Raine wrote: man beat every zerg with forgg's joke build
i dont consider him code s level, far from it
Even his matches in the Korean qualifiers? I could be being stupid here, but beating the snot out of an array of GSL players and then dominating stiff foreigner competition to reach second overall sort of seems like he is at least top tier Code-A.
people have been saying for ages that the skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is getting smaller. Well, I still dont see a difference. Pretty much every tournament the korean pros enter are dominated by them, save from some anomalities where guys like nani or huk did well (although huk could be considered more and more to be just a white korean player) As a side note on that, it seems like a foreigner that has been doing well in a tournament against koreans gets completely dismantled by them in another when they have figured out his playstyle and abuse it hard... So if you ask me there still has to be a foreign player that consistently goes toe to toe with the top of the top korean players.
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
On January 10 2012 06:36 Let it Raine wrote: man beat every zerg with forgg's joke build
i dont consider him code s level, far from it
Even his matches in the Korean qualifiers? I could be being stupid here, but beating the snot out of an array of GSL players and then dominating stiff foreigner competition to reach second overall sort of seems like he is at least top tier Code-A.
Almost all GSL players are preparing for GSL, so only mediocre Korean players took part in the qualifiers, with a couple of notable exceptions which Sound didn't beat. Sure, Sound's performance wasn't BAD, but it wasn't all that good either. He definitely isn't worthy of being called Code S level, especially after seeing his play.
MrBitter was mistaken when he said Sound beat Jjakji.
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans.
All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans.
GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate. They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days. It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it.
As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low.
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember
Only one I can find is IEM Guangzhou, with elfi and Idra in the finals.
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember
Only one I can find is IEM Guangzhou, with elfi and Idra in the finals.
EDIT: Oh, and TSL 3, obviously.
Don't really think online tournaments should really count though...(Like honestly. Do people really still think lag did not affect that tournament?) And yeah, IEM Guangzhou is all I can remember but I don't even recall a strong Korean presence there. Actually the only Korean I even remember is Puma
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans.
All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans.
GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate. They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days. It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it.
As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low.
Actually . . when you mix in 2-3 Koreans against top foreigners, historically the Koreans have won. Blizzcon? WCG? Early MLGs? NASL?
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans.
All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans.
GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate. They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days. It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it.
As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low.
Actually . . when you mix in 2-3 Koreans against top foreigners, historically the Koreans have won. Blizzcon? WCG? Early MLGs? NASL?
MC even won tourneys where he was the ONLY korean.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans are better because they actually dedicate themselves to play 10-12 hours a day. If foreigners did that i'm sure they would be able to compete with higher chances of winning. Foreigners are lazy.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans 8 events won, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
The tournaments the Koreans won were about 20% or less korean as far as distribution goes The tournaments that foreigners won had about 80% or more of their distribution being foreigners.
There's your difference.
In none of those tournaments were there a majority of Koreans, or even CLOSE to a majority of Koreans.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
You're not counting tournaments where foreigners are the minority but you ARE counting tournaments where Koreans are the minority? Bias much? How many Koreans were at ESWC? Very few. How many Koreans were at IEM Guangzhou? Very few.
You're not taking into consideration that even when Koreans are vastly outnumbered by foreigners, they overwhelmingly dominate except for a handful of exceptions. However, when foreigners are put in similar situations, like when they participate in Code A or Blizzard Cup, they get completely destroyed. Stop being obviously biased.
It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it.
This is exactly the wrong attitude to have as a progamer. Let's see, the competition is tough, there are equally skilled players, that means that I MAY OR MAY NOT win. What kind of mindset is that? You cannot become the best by dodging the high level events. If one wants to be the best, one has to compete with the best.
Let's take Idra's GSL group as an example: now I don't know how he feels about it, but damn, if I were him, I'd be absolutely thrilled to have the opportunity to compete with Nestea and MVP, and see how well I perform. I'll quote Corneille here and say that a victory without danger is a triumph without glory.
edit: well it seems that so far cyclone25 is not willing to listen to reason so I'm out.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
I don't think it's so much about winning a tournament as it is about the overall performance of koreans compared to the rest. they almost always perform really well and have half if not more of their players in top 8. I mean we are talking about just Koreans vs the rest of the world. One can't be so blind to not see that Koreans are just better. But it's ok, that's what makes foreigners participation in international events so exciting, we want to see them do well.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
You cherry picked the one month of 2011 that foreigners did reasonably well and the Koreans still took more events.
Pretty much just send the whole GSL korean team members (Code S and Code A) to compete in all the events and it probably guaranteed that no non-korean will even make the top 8. LOL
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. He's essentially the perfect second generation progamer. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
If you exclude tournaments like GSL, every single one of the tournaments counted would be foreign based tournaments where foreigners were far more represented than Koreans.
All top foreigner events are inviting at least 5 of the best koreans.
GSL results are misleading, because as I said, very few foreigner players participate. They have a good reason for it: GSL lasts for one month, foreigner events only a few days. It's a big commitment to make, because there are at least 10 players equally skilled participating. Wasting a month for low chances to win isn't worth it.
As I said before, if Europe would have it's own GSL, I doubt a lot of Koreans will move in Europe just for this event ... and if you have 2-3 koreans vs 15 top foreigner players, their chances to win are very low.
Actually . . when you mix in 2-3 Koreans against top foreigners, historically the Koreans have won. Blizzcon? WCG? Early MLGs? NASL?
Koreans had their very best players at WCG and Blizzcon vs 2-3 top foreigners.
Blizzcon had Mvp and NesTea vs Naniwa? ... Notable foreigner players were Sen, Ret and Dimaga too but they're not top 5 like Mvp and NesTea are.
WCG had Mvp, MarineKing, SuperNova vs Huk and Kas? Again the koreans had the edge when it comes to top players.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
On January 10 2012 05:37 ZerguufOu wrote: lol @ people thinking foreigners are even close to koreans.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS
In every major tournament, ill take the koreans and you can have the rest of the world
i cant believe this topic is even debatable lol..
Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments. I'm excluding tournaments where there are less than 5 players to represent a side (like GSL).
Were their any major tournaments with several koreans participating in which the finals were between two foreigners? I actually can't remember
Only one I can find is IEM Guangzhou, with elfi and Idra in the finals.
EDIT: Oh, and TSL 3, obviously.
Don't really think online tournaments should really count though...(Like honestly. Do people really still think lag did not affect that tournament?) And yeah, IEM Guangzhou is all I can remember but I don't even recall a strong Korean presence there. Actually the only Korean I even remember is Puma
Puma, JYP and Rain.
IEM Guangzhou was the tournament the casters at HSC were going on about in which DIMAGA 2-0ed JYP. But yes, only 3 Koreans to 13 foreigners and there was still a Korean in the top 3. Bear in mind this is the most foreign-favoured major offline tournament I can find, and Koreans still did remarkably well.
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans 8 events won, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
The tournaments the Koreans won were about 20% or less korean as far as distribution goes The tournaments that foreigners won had about 80% or more of their distribution being foreigners.
There's your difference.
In none of those tournaments were there a majority of Koreans, or even CLOSE to a majority of Koreans.
And yet they still won a majority.
How do people still argue about this?
We're comparing the number of top players only. Of course MLG has a lot of players that aren't even masters.
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
I said a considerable amount of foreigners are lazy. I know Idra and Naniwa practice alot, and thats why they are sucessful.
And no, not all Koreans practice very hard. Guess where you will find most of them? In Code B.
I gurantee you the top 64 Koreans (code A and S) practice way more on average than the top 64 foreigners.
On January 10 2012 07:32 ReachTheSky wrote: Koreans are better because they actually dedicate themselves to play 10-12 hours a day. If foreigners did that i'm sure they would be able to compete with higher chances of winning. Foreigners are lazy.
That seems to be what the foreigner fans say. They think practice = become best players in the world. It's not that simple imo.
Practice can improve your mechanics but what about game knowledge, APM, multi-tasking ability, being fearless, composure under high pressure, and just overall IQ, etc. There's always that natural ability element ppl cannot get through 12 hours of practice.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
If you can't look at the number of major offline tournaments each foreigner won compared to Koreans, look at the winrate of Koreans to foreigners. It doesn't take much calculation to realise that Koreans > foreigners almost all the time.
You said to look at Blizzcup. Discounting the probe rush, Naniwa had an 0-4 result and Stephano had a 2-2 result. That's 2 wins and 6 losses, a win rate of 25%. Bear in mind that Naniwa and Stephano were considered to be the best foreign players the world had to offer (Huk having dropped into Code A, and few representatives from EU like Nerchio etc).
And that was considered OK. Stephano was praised for going 2-2 against some of the best Koreans in the world, Naniwa... well, everyone knows what happened after that for Naniwa. It wasn't considered a triumph for foreigners, but it wasn't considered BAD.
When a 25% result is considered decent (nobody was shocked by how bad it was), you know that foreigners just aren't as consistently good as Koreans.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans 8 events won, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
The tournaments the Koreans won were about 20% or less korean as far as distribution goes The tournaments that foreigners won had about 80% or more of their distribution being foreigners.
There's your difference.
In none of those tournaments were there a majority of Koreans, or even CLOSE to a majority of Koreans.
And yet they still won a majority.
How do people still argue about this?
We're comparing the number of top players only. Of course MLG has a lot of players that aren't even masters.
Guangzhou was 4 Koreans to 12 foreigners. 11 of those foreigners are well known solid players. Two of those foreigners aren't even/barely Code A level. A Korean got top 3 ESWC: Not much on liqupedia here. I know there were far more "good" foreigners than good koreans here though. A Korean got top 3 IPL was basically dominated by Koreans as far the top ten goes, except Stephano took no.1. Hardly a good example. Which MLG are you talking about? Orlando? It's the same situation as IPL. (Koreans took 6 of the top 8), and both HuK and Idra benefited from group staging
On January 10 2012 07:32 ReachTheSky wrote: Koreans are better because they actually dedicate themselves to play 10-12 hours a day. If foreigners did that i'm sure they would be able to compete with higher chances of winning. Foreigners are lazy.
That seems to be what the foreigner fans say. They think practice = become best players in the world. It's not that simple imo.
Practice can improve your mechanics but what about game knowledge, APM, multi-tasking ability, being fearless, composure under high pressure, and just overall IQ, etc. There's always that natural ability element ppl cannot get through 12 hours of practice.
seriously? wheres the argument in that of course practice increases and improves what you just said........
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
I said a considerable amount of foreigners are lazy. I know Idra and Naniwa practice alot, and thats why they are sucessful.
And no, not all Koreans practice very hard. Guess where you will find most of them? In Code B.
I gurantee you the top 64 Koreans (code A and S) practice way more on average than the top 64 foreigners.
First of all you have no real data to support this stupid stereotype. Second, if you're measuring effort by hours spent practicing, a lot of this can be explained by the lack of foreign team houses. And the answer to the lack of team houses isn't just "go build a team house", it requires significant investment by the team, the sponsors, and the players, often much much more than is required for a Korean team house.
Koreans can just rent out an apartment in Seoul and house a dozen or so players easily. Most teams have A team and B team players and are constantly shuffling them around. SlayerS for example holds qualifier tournaments for random dudes to get scouted. EG is one of the few foreign teams with a house but they're not going to get a big turnout if they hold random qualifier tournaments in Arizona. It's not even clear they can support a bunch of B team players who aren't all expected to give results and big showings.
What I'm saying is that the infrastructure difference is so incomparably in favor of the Koreans that it's completely stupid to generalize EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT KOREA and call them lazy.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans 8 events won, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
The tournaments the Koreans won were about 20% or less korean as far as distribution goes The tournaments that foreigners won had about 80% or more of their distribution being foreigners.
There's your difference.
In none of those tournaments were there a majority of Koreans, or even CLOSE to a majority of Koreans.
And yet they still won a majority.
How do people still argue about this?
We're comparing the number of top players only. Of course MLG has a lot of players that aren't even masters.
I'm not even going to bother arguing against someone who contradicts himself every other post.
You said that you wouldn't count tournaments with less than 5 from either side, and yet you counted tournaments with less than five Koreans as foreigner wins.
If you're really going to do that, you might as well count Code A. How come the foreign invites to Code A aren't winning Code A? These are supposedly top foreigners like Thorzain, Sase, Select, and Sjow. If a handful of Korean invites can manage to win, how come these top foreigners can't?
Simple answer: Koreans are better than foreigners. Top Koreans are better than top foreigners. Top foreigners can take games off of Koreans but those are considered huge upsets which happen very rarely. Koreans have overwhelmingly dominant records against foreigners.
On January 10 2012 07:32 ReachTheSky wrote: Koreans are better because they actually dedicate themselves to play 10-12 hours a day. If foreigners did that i'm sure they would be able to compete with higher chances of winning. Foreigners are lazy.
That seems to be what the foreigner fans say. They think practice = become best players in the world. It's not that simple imo.
Practice can improve your mechanics but what about game knowledge, APM, multi-tasking ability, being fearless, composure under high pressure, and just overall IQ, etc. There's always that natural ability element ppl cannot get through 12 hours of practice.
seriously? wheres the argument in that of course practice increases and improves what you just said........
How are you even supposed to practice in NA? In the most recent tournament, HSC, Koreans outnumbered North Americans almost 2-1. Literally 0 NA players made it to the second stage of group play. 12 hours of practice on the NA server sounds like a total waste of time.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
I said a considerable amount of foreigners are lazy. I know Idra and Naniwa practice alot, and thats why they are sucessful.
And no, not all Koreans practice very hard. Guess where you will find most of them? In Code B.
I gurantee you the top 64 Koreans (code A and S) practice way more on average than the top 64 foreigners.
First of all you have no real data to support this stupid stereotype. Second, if you're measuring effort by hours spent practicing, a lot of this can be explained by the lack of foreign team houses. And the answer to the lack of team houses isn't just "go build a team house", it requires significant investment by the team, the sponsors, and the players, often much much more than is required for a Korean team house.
Koreans can just rent out an apartment in Seoul and house a dozen or so players easily. Most teams have A team and B team players and are constantly shuffling them around. SlayerS for example holds qualifier tournaments for random dudes to get scouted. EG is one of the few foreign teams with a house but they're not going to get a big turnout if they hold random qualifier tournaments in Arizona. It's not even clear they can support a bunch of B team players who aren't all expected to give results and big showings.
What I'm saying is that the infrastructure difference is so incomparably in favor of the Koreans that it's completely stupid to generalize EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT KOREA and call them lazy.
Err, do you really want me to link each individual foreigner talking about how much they play? And most Korean game houses require you to practice a lot if you want to stay in it, and considering everyone (or 99% that is) in Code A/S is on a team...
And no, I'm not saying go build a team house. I think it's a terrific idea, but hard to manage. We all know Custom with teammates>ladder, but I'd still argue 8 hours of ladder>3 hours of ladder. And they're plenty of foreigners who could easily make that jump, but they are either lazy or don't want to make the game their primary form of income.
That's what I mean by lazy. I don't think if every foreigner started practicing like mad we'd close the gap completely, obviously we would need teamhouses/support for that, but I certainly think we could close the gap considerably.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
One fairly important thing that I think people often miss is that Code S and Code A players have time to prepare for their matches every single time.
Which means GSL matches are almost always played by players when they're at tip top shape. Not to mention the huge metagame between players in Code S, note the crazy records between certain players of seriously different caliber in the GSL. (See Coca ripping Sangho in half 2-0 in a not even close series (GSL) to the general rolling of Coca by Sangho during a weekly in some fairly lopsided games)
This is as opposed to weekend cups like HHSC or MLG or IPL, where basic mechanical strength and endurance are much more prized than absolute maximums. Where solid overall players have solid overall results.
I guess it's like comparing professional boxing matches and marathon fight clubs.
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
I said a considerable amount of foreigners are lazy. I know Idra and Naniwa practice alot, and thats why they are sucessful.
And no, not all Koreans practice very hard. Guess where you will find most of them? In Code B.
I gurantee you the top 64 Koreans (code A and S) practice way more on average than the top 64 foreigners.
First of all you have no real data to support this stupid stereotype. Second, if you're measuring effort by hours spent practicing, a lot of this can be explained by the lack of foreign team houses. And the answer to the lack of team houses isn't just "go build a team house", it requires significant investment by the team, the sponsors, and the players, often much much more than is required for a Korean team house.
Koreans can just rent out an apartment in Seoul and house a dozen or so players easily. Most teams have A team and B team players and are constantly shuffling them around. SlayerS for example holds qualifier tournaments for random dudes to get scouted. EG is one of the few foreign teams with a house but they're not going to get a big turnout if they hold random qualifier tournaments in Arizona. It's not even clear they can support a bunch of B team players who aren't all expected to give results and big showings.
What I'm saying is that the infrastructure difference is so incomparably in favor of the Koreans that it's completely stupid to generalize EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT KOREA and call them lazy.
Err, do you really want me to link each individual foreigner talking about how much they play? And most Korean game houses require you to practice a lot if you want to stay in it, and considering everyone (or 99% that is) in Code A/S is on a team...
And no, I'm not saying go build a team house. I think it's a terrific idea, but hard to manage. We all know Custom with teammates>ladder, but I'd still argue 8 hours of ladder>3 hours of ladder. And they're plenty of foreigners who could easily make that jump, but they are either lazy or don't want to make the game their primary form of income.
That's what I mean by lazy. I don't think if every foreigner started practicing like mad we'd close the gap completely, obviously we would need teamhouses/support for that, but I certainly think we could close the gap considerably.
Uh, 99% of most Korean teams are NOT Code A/Code S. Most teams only have a handful of GSL players. Just look at any liquipedia page for any Korean team. Also remember that the liquipedia page doesn't even have an up to date list of all the players since the teams don't feel it necessary to update the lists with their nonamers.
If you don't even think that just grinding out hours of practice would close the skill gap, don't call foreigners lazy.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
From what I hear, most pros hate playing cross server due to latency.
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
I said a considerable amount of foreigners are lazy. I know Idra and Naniwa practice alot, and thats why they are sucessful.
And no, not all Koreans practice very hard. Guess where you will find most of them? In Code B.
I gurantee you the top 64 Koreans (code A and S) practice way more on average than the top 64 foreigners.
First of all you have no real data to support this stupid stereotype. Second, if you're measuring effort by hours spent practicing, a lot of this can be explained by the lack of foreign team houses. And the answer to the lack of team houses isn't just "go build a team house", it requires significant investment by the team, the sponsors, and the players, often much much more than is required for a Korean team house.
Koreans can just rent out an apartment in Seoul and house a dozen or so players easily. Most teams have A team and B team players and are constantly shuffling them around. SlayerS for example holds qualifier tournaments for random dudes to get scouted. EG is one of the few foreign teams with a house but they're not going to get a big turnout if they hold random qualifier tournaments in Arizona. It's not even clear they can support a bunch of B team players who aren't all expected to give results and big showings.
What I'm saying is that the infrastructure difference is so incomparably in favor of the Koreans that it's completely stupid to generalize EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT KOREA and call them lazy.
Err, do you really want me to link each individual foreigner talking about how much they play? And most Korean game houses require you to practice a lot if you want to stay in it, and considering everyone (or 99% that is) in Code A/S is on a team...
And no, I'm not saying go build a team house. I think it's a terrific idea, but hard to manage. We all know Custom with teammates>ladder, but I'd still argue 8 hours of ladder>3 hours of ladder. And they're plenty of foreigners who could easily make that jump, but they are either lazy or don't want to make the game their primary form of income.
That's what I mean by lazy. I don't think if every foreigner started practicing like mad we'd close the gap completely, obviously we would need teamhouses/support for that, but I certainly think we could close the gap considerably.
Uh, 99% of most Korean teams are NOT Code A/Code S. Most teams only have a handful of GSL players.
I believe his point was that 99% of the people who DO make it to Code A / Code S are on a team. I think ShinyStar is the only person that makes up the 1% of those that are not.
Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote: Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win.
Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil.
"Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend.
Let's take the result from September:
Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled.
AoL had only koreans, excluded too.
Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better".
Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference?
If you can't look at the number of major offline tournaments each foreigner won compared to Koreans, look at the winrate of Koreans to foreigners. It doesn't take much calculation to realise that Koreans > foreigners almost all the time.
You said to look at Blizzcup. Discounting the probe rush, Naniwa had an 0-4 result and Stephano had a 2-2 result. That's 2 wins and 6 losses, a win rate of 25%. Bear in mind that Naniwa and Stephano were considered to be the best foreign players the world had to offer (Huk having dropped into Code A, and few representatives from EU like Nerchio etc).
And that was considered OK. Stephano was praised for going 2-2 against some of the best Koreans in the world, Naniwa... well, everyone knows what happened after that for Naniwa. It wasn't considered a triumph for foreigners, but it wasn't considered BAD.
When a 25% result is considered decent (nobody was shocked by how bad it was), you know that foreigners just aren't as consistently good as Koreans.
That's a very small sample you got to make such a big comparison. And that 25% wasn't considered decent, a lot of people expected Stephano to win AoL
On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote: Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams.
Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans.
Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low.
I said a considerable amount of foreigners are lazy. I know Idra and Naniwa practice alot, and thats why they are sucessful.
And no, not all Koreans practice very hard. Guess where you will find most of them? In Code B.
I gurantee you the top 64 Koreans (code A and S) practice way more on average than the top 64 foreigners.
First of all you have no real data to support this stupid stereotype. Second, if you're measuring effort by hours spent practicing, a lot of this can be explained by the lack of foreign team houses. And the answer to the lack of team houses isn't just "go build a team house", it requires significant investment by the team, the sponsors, and the players, often much much more than is required for a Korean team house.
Koreans can just rent out an apartment in Seoul and house a dozen or so players easily. Most teams have A team and B team players and are constantly shuffling them around. SlayerS for example holds qualifier tournaments for random dudes to get scouted. EG is one of the few foreign teams with a house but they're not going to get a big turnout if they hold random qualifier tournaments in Arizona. It's not even clear they can support a bunch of B team players who aren't all expected to give results and big showings.
What I'm saying is that the infrastructure difference is so incomparably in favor of the Koreans that it's completely stupid to generalize EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT KOREA and call them lazy.
Err, do you really want me to link each individual foreigner talking about how much they play? And most Korean game houses require you to practice a lot if you want to stay in it, and considering everyone (or 99% that is) in Code A/S is on a team...
And no, I'm not saying go build a team house. I think it's a terrific idea, but hard to manage. We all know Custom with teammates>ladder, but I'd still argue 8 hours of ladder>3 hours of ladder. And they're plenty of foreigners who could easily make that jump, but they are either lazy or don't want to make the game their primary form of income.
That's what I mean by lazy. I don't think if every foreigner started practicing like mad we'd close the gap completely, obviously we would need teamhouses/support for that, but I certainly think we could close the gap considerably.
Uh, 99% of most Korean teams are NOT Code A/Code S. Most teams only have a handful of GSL players. Just look at any liquipedia page for any Korean team. Also remember that the liquipedia page doesn't even have an up to date list of all the players since the teams don't feel it necessary to update the lists with their nonamers.
If you don't even think that just grinding out hours of practice would close the skill gap, don't call foreigners lazy.
I think you misunderstood him, he didn't say that 99% of the korean teams are in code A/S but that 99% of the koreans that are in code A/S are in a team which sounds pretty right.
On January 10 2012 07:32 ReachTheSky wrote: Koreans are better because they actually dedicate themselves to play 10-12 hours a day. If foreigners did that i'm sure they would be able to compete with higher chances of winning. Foreigners are lazy.
That seems to be what the foreigner fans say. They think practice = become best players in the world. It's not that simple imo.
Practice can improve your mechanics but what about game knowledge, APM, multi-tasking ability, being fearless, composure under high pressure, and just overall IQ, etc. There's always that natural ability element ppl cannot get through 12 hours of practice.
seriously? wheres the argument in that of course practice increases and improves what you just said........
How are you even supposed to practice in NA? In the most recent tournament, HSC, Koreans outnumbered North Americans almost 2-1. Literally 0 NA players made it to the second stage of group play. 12 hours of practice on the NA server sounds like a total waste of time.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
This would be huge and incredibly beneficial.
uh no the north americans out numbered the koreans by like 3-1... people are making to many excuses on why a foreigner didnt win HSC "stephano was drunk" "idra wasnt there" "foreigners just wanted to have fun" "koreans practice 12 hrs a day"
well not the koreans fault that the players were getting drunk im i right? i would rather win HSC then just get wasted out of my mind foreigners practice as hard as koreans. Why do you think they go to korea to go get wasted and pick up chicks? no they go there to train just like a korean.. and why is there more korean results then foreigners because KOREANS ARE JUST BETTER
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
I don't think his suggestion was unreasonable. It's bad from NA to Korea as well. Just because EU is even worse doesn't mean it's very playable from NA. If all could play on Korean ladder with minor latancy it would surely lead to an increase in skill overall.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA.
NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know...
Alright, I don't think this was done before, but using the Premier Tournaments Page on Liquidpedia, and selecting foreign tournaments (no GSL, no special GSL events, no events with only koreans), I made this below. For the MLGs, I selected only from the Final Tournament brackets and not included open (because that'd just skew it towards Koreans even more). For every other tournament, I used the brackets shown (usually Ro32).
And before anyone complain about which koreans I selected - I discounted Moonan and Select, but included Puma and Hero as Koreans.
2010 Dreamhack Winter - 30 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naama, 1 Korean in Top 8
2011 IEM Season V World Championship - 9 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Ace, 3 Koreans in Top 8 TSL 3 - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner Thorzain, 2 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Stockholm - 7 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner MC NASL Season 1 - 16 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner Puma, 5 Koreans in Top 8 Copenhagen Games- 57 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MC, 1 Korean in Top 8 Starwars Killer 6 - 18 Foreigners, 14 Koreans, Winner MC, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Columbus - 19 Foreigners, 5 Koreans, Winner MMA, 4 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Summer - 44 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Huk, 4 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Anaheim - 18 Foreigners, 6 Koreans, Winner MVP, 6 Koreans in Top 8 Assembly Summer - 31 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner Dimaga, 0 Koreans in Top 8 IEM Cologne - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Raleigh - 15 Foreigners, 9 Koreans, Winner Bomber, 6 koreans in Top 8 MLG Invitationals - 2 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naniwa NASL 2 - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Valencia- 5 Foreigners, 3 koreans, Winner Dongraegu IPL Season 3 - 19 Foreigners, 13 Koreans, Winner Stephano, 5 Koreans in Top 8 IEM Guangzhou[/b] - 12 Foreigners, [b]4 Koreans, Winner IdrA, 3 Koreans in Top 8 IEM New York- 12 Foreigners, 4 koreans, Winner Dongraegu, 4 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Orlando - 14 Foreigners, 10 koreans, Winner Huk, 6 Koreans in Top 8 Blizzcon Invitationals - 14 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner MVP, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Providence - 17 Foreigners, 15 Koreans, Winner Leenock, 4 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Winter - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Hero, 3 Koreans in Top 8 World Cybergames - 45 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MVP, 3 Koreans in Top 8 Blizzard Cup - 2 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner MMA
2012 Homestory Cup - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner MC, 6 koreans in Top 8
To my recollection, TSL 3 and Starwars were online and people keep saying lag is a factor. And the World Cybergames, even though it's 45 foreigners, had a lotta crappy foreigners because of their invite system. Otherwise, everything else should be accurate.
So from the above, the Koreans have won 18 out of 26 foreign premier tournaments.
Sorry for the terrible format, it's freezing cold and I wanted to whip this up in a jiffy.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
I am generally confused by what is being argued by here's my two cents.
It cannot be disputed that in the general results, which means looking at all of the results in tournaments, korean have significantly better results in all of the tournaments they go to. Yes stephano won IPL3. But the next three places were all korean. Yes huk got first and idra got 4th at orlando. But in the top 15, 11 were korean, the only korean that didn't make it was inori. (whats funny is that both tournaments, idra and ret were part of the four foreginers in the top 15 MLG and the 3 foreginers in IPL top 8).
They send like 4 players to MLG and some come over to participate and most if not all place in the top 10. What does this say though? That koreans are naturally skilled? that koreans prepare more? That foreigners lack both of above? I'm not sure but I believe practice is a huge factor as well as the community that they live in.
I believe in a MLG recap a long time ago, perhaps anaheim or colombus, that one person noted how close the korean gamer proscene is. I think MVP once stated in an interview that when facing nestea, he practices against dongraegu a lot. Do you think Idra can casually call up whitera and ask him for pvz help? Koreans get a lot more help because the teams are in the same timezone and its a lot easier to set up practice dates between the best players. If he wants to, Dongraegu could probably take the subway for 30 or some and get to the IM teamhouse (i'm pulling this out of my ass but its the general idea that counts).
As for the skill gap, i think it got closer and then separated again. I feel like top foreigners exploded onto the scene due to the changes in gameplay they had, but fell behind as their opponents figured it out. Notice the era of dominance was in october/early november. After that, Naniwa lost at blizzardcup, and huk lost his code S status. Stephano arguably had the best record as he went 2-2 int he blizzard cup but his recent results have me worried.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA.
NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know...
Lol I say that EU is overall better than NA, not KR.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
This! Oh 100x this! You know people always say foreigners dont practice enough and thats probably true. But its got to be pretty depressing when you get such a low quality of practice as you do when compared to players in Korea. Even those who do practice a lot and do very well for themselves are at a bit of a disadvantage.
You think it's bad now, eh boyo? When Kespa switches the BW teams over to SC2, hell will freeze over. O_O
The gap will widen from being the Black Sea to becoming the Pacific Ocean. There is just so much more talent in BW than in SC2 in Korea, and that said, SC2 is still nothing in comparison to BW there and yet they're still stomping foreigners. ((
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
And I don't smoke; though I appreciate you asking.
Select is born in korea plays in NA, and you consider select a foreigner right? Huk born in NA, plays in korea, and huks still a foreigner? GTFO
I am not sure what you are talking about. When did I say that I consider Select to be a foreigner? On the contrary, I said I consider Select a Korean a few posts up. Read before you assault me, please.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
The Starcraft II community has trouble deciding whether Koreans have some genetic advantage when it comes to SCII or if it simply is the training environment. Personally, I think it is the second, but I chose to to base those statistics on nationality instead of living location (partly for consistency and partly because it saved time), but I believe swapping would only change it to the favor of the foreigners. No matter how you choose to look at it, the foreigner-korean percentage is at a fairly steady 35-65 / 40-60, and that is what I wanted to point out. Nitpick all you want, but then we will have to draw the line on when you are no longer "considered a Korean" - which is downright silly.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
and idra is korean because of his past in bw korean scene?
lets not go off topic, its really irrelevant. if you really want to call these koreans, foreigners, might as well call beckam american, park ji sung english, messi spaniard, and cha boom german.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage.
E
Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?
It doesn't even matter. His "data" is meaningless. Another guy just posted a far better analysis since it accounts for how many Koreans entered and how many got far in the tourney. For example, if the top 8 is composed of 7 Koreans and 1 foreigner and the foreigner wins, that doesn't mean the tournament was really good for foreigners on the whole. Especially if you consider something like 8 Koreans were probably invited so 88% of them made it to the top 8.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
and idra is korean because of his past in bw korean scene?
lets not go off topic, its really irrelevant. if you really want to call these koreans, foreigners, might as well call beckam american, park ji sung english, messi spaniard, and cha boom german.
Nah, Beckham gained the bulk of his skill while in the UK, not in the US. Your argument doesn't logically make any sense.
Damn "what is korean" question again, here is how you solve it, at each interview, ask the player "Hi (pro gamer) what do you consider yourself?" Answer= ends debate
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage.
E
Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?
It doesn't even matter. His "data" is meaningless. Another guy just posted a far better analysis since it accounts for how many Koreans entered and how many got far in the tourney. For example, if the top 8 is composed of 7 Koreans and 1 foreigner and the foreigner wins, that doesn't mean the tournament was really good for foreigners on the whole. Especially if you consider something like 8 Koreans were probably invited so 88% of them made it to the top 8.
I would cite "No one remembers the runner-up", but it really doesn't matter. Truth is, there is no accurate way to measure the "skill gap" between Koreans and foreigners, no matter how much you investigate it all. You could also say that the whole "X koreans entered and Y got to the top 8", would also be mostly irrelevant because no team in their right mind would pay to send a player they do not believe can perform, especially when the player and team is based in South Korea.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
The Starcraft II community has trouble deciding whether Koreans have some genetic advantage when it comes to SCII or if it simply is the training environment. Personally, I think it is the second, but I chose to to base those statistics on nationality instead of living location (partly for consistency and partly because it saved time), but I believe swapping would only change it to the favor of the foreigners. No matter how you choose to look at it, the foreigner-korean percentage is at a fairly steady 35-65 / 40-60, and that is what I wanted to point out. Nitpick all you want, but then we will have to draw the line on when you are no longer "considered a Korean" - which is downright silly.
I don't think many people realistically think Koreans have a genetic advantage, considering I see far more people stating that this is not the case--as well as it being a flat-out stupid claim. I could also care less about how it skews statistics in favor of Koreans or foreigners. I'm only pointing out that marking Select and Moonan as part of the Korean scene is ridiculous. I can see why people argue about someone like Huk, who has had half his career inside Korea and half out; but Select and Moonan both made a name for themselves in SC2 outside of Korea. They have reaped zero benefits from the Korean scene for the vast majority of their career. Hero and Puma are logically counted as Korean because they started out in Korea and have always lived and trained there.
Arguments over whether or not a player is "korean-trained" or a foreigner should be left for players for which there could actually be logical controversy.
On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote: Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.
January
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
February
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
March
IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - )
April
MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)
May
No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.
June
Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)
September
MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)
October
IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)
17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.
9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.
Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions.
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
and idra is korean because of his past in bw korean scene?
lets not go off topic, its really irrelevant. if you really want to call these koreans, foreigners, might as well call beckam american, park ji sung english, messi spaniard, and cha boom german.
Nah, Beckham gained the bulk of his skill while in the UK, not in the US. Your argument doesn't logically make any sense.
dude...i can pick out so many foreign players that went through the youth program in big european teams. you picked out beckham out of many examples and say my logic dont make sense? lol
On January 10 2012 08:43 stork4ever wrote: Damn "what is korean" question again, here is how you solve it, at each interview, ask the player "Hi (pro gamer) what do you consider yourself?" Answer= ends debate
lol exactly. People really over think something this simple, and I find it hilarious when someone tries say Puma or Hero is considered foreigner and huk is korean......lol wat?
What some people don`t realize is that it would take the majority of the foreign scene to put up good results against koreans to ever be considered "close". Having the top 5 or so foreigners being able to compete with the koreans doesn`t mean the skill gap is close between foreigners and koreans. There is a huge pool of players in korea who can beat the top foreigners.
I think the biggest statistic someone should work out is the % of Korean losses due to Koreans. I'm not sure but I have a feeling at least 60% of Korean losses in foreign tournaments (where foreigners are at a majority) are due to being knocked out by another Korean. Actually, fuck that, I'm going to say 75%. I swear for tournaments like MLG Providence, non Koreans took less than 5 sets off Koreans (even though people were saying how foreigners had caught up due to Naniwa doing well).
Ok... done some research and the results are quite... revealing.
Number of sets where Koreans lost to foreigners: 5 Number of sets where Koreans lost to Koreans: 31 !!!
In MLG providence, when a Korean lost, 86% of the time it was by another Korean. Foreigners took 5 sets off the Koreans in total and the Koreans won EVERYTHING ELSE.
On January 10 2012 08:16 JinDesu wrote: Alright, I don't think this was done before, but using the Premier Tournaments Page on Liquidpedia, and selecting foreign tournaments (no GSL, no special GSL events, no events with only koreans), I made this below. For the MLGs, I selected only from the Final Tournament brackets and not included open (because that'd just skew it towards Koreans even more). For every other tournament, I used the brackets shown (usually Ro32).
And before anyone complain about which koreans I selected - I discounted Moonan and Select, but included Puma and Hero as Koreans.
2010 Dreamhack Winter - 30 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naama, 1 Korean in Top 8
2011 IEM Season V World Championship - 9 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Ace, 3 Koreans in Top 8 TSL 3 - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner Thorzain, 2 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Stockholm - 7 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner MC NASL Season 1 - 16 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner Puma, 5 Koreans in Top 8 Copenhagen Games- 57 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MC, 1 Korean in Top 8 Starwars Killer 6 - 18 Foreigners, 14 Koreans, Winner MC, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Columbus - 19 Foreigners, 5 Koreans, Winner MMA, 4 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Summer - 44 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Huk, 4 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Anaheim - 18 Foreigners, 6 Koreans, Winner MVP, 6 Koreans in Top 8 Assembly Summer - 31 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner Dimaga, 0 Koreans in Top 8 IEM Cologne - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Raleigh - 15 Foreigners, 9 Koreans, Winner Bomber, 6 koreans in Top 8 MLG Invitationals - 2 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naniwa NASL 2 - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Valencia- 5 Foreigners, 3 koreans, Winner Dongraegu IPL Season 3 - 19 Foreigners, 13 Koreans, Winner Stephano, 5 Koreans in Top 8 IEM Guangzhou[/b] - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner IdrA, 3 Koreans in Top 8 IEM New York- 12 Foreigners, 4 koreans, Winner Dongraegu, 4 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Orlando - 14 Foreigners, 10 koreans, Winner Huk, 6 Koreans in Top 8 Blizzcon Invitationals - 14 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner MVP, 2 Koreans in Top 8 MLG Providence - 17 Foreigners, 15 Koreans, Winner Leenock, 4 Koreans in Top 8 Dreamhack Winter - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Hero, 3 Koreans in Top 8 World Cybergames - 45 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MVP, 3 Koreans in Top 8 Blizzard Cup - 2 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner MMA
2012 Homestory Cup - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner MC, 6 koreans in Top 8
To my recollection, TSL 3 and Starwars were online and people keep saying lag is a factor. And the World Cybergames, even though it's 45 foreigners, had a lotta crappy foreigners because of their invite system. Otherwise, everything else should be accurate.
So from the above, the Koreans have won 18 out of 26 foreign premier tournaments.
Sorry for the terrible format, it's freezing cold and I wanted to whip this up in a jiffy.
Awesome, this is great data. I used it to make this: (Just some raw data in table form) + Show Spoiler +
Top 8 finishes Foreigner: 117 (57.4%) Korean: 87 (42.6%)
Champion: Foreigner: 8 (31%) Korean: 18 (69%)
Average Korean Participant Chances: 60.4% chance of top 8 finish 12.5% chance of being champion
Average Foreigner Participant Chances: 23.7% chance of top 8 finish 1.6% chance of being champion
Average Korean vs. Foreigner Participant Chances: 2.55 times more likely to be a top 8 finisher 7.72 times more likely to be the champion.
I'd like to turn this into a post or edit in the OP, with your permission.
(*) Keep in mind that these are not all the participants, these are just the "final bracket" contestants, the top 32, top 60, top 16, whatever may apply. There are 638 total participants tabulated, out of 26 events, so that's an average of 24.3 participants per event. So, call it top-24.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
in all honesty the best koreans didnt come : mvp nestea leenock what are you trying to say ah this thread is to stubborn to realize koreans are just better koreans > the world
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
in all honesty the best koreans didnt come : mvp nestea leenock what are you trying to say ah this thread is to stubborn to realize koreans are just better koreans > the world
This was about HSC so where do you see mvp, nestea leenock?
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
MC is still arguably the best protoss in the world and unarguably the most accomplished.
Korean's are better. Just watching their streams you can see a difference in their play compared to foreigners. Their multitasking/speed is usually superior.
Question: Have you guys ever seen asian people play ping pong? Nuts...
Evolutions fact and I think it is totally reasonable to believe that over time with a better/different diet a certain group of people can become naturally more skilled or better at completing certain tasks that require a certain amount of natural ability to play at the highest level. Totally reasonable to believe this..
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
EDIT: Well Violet beat MKP, Sound showed himself well, MC is most accomplished protoss and through his career won many tourneys, when protoss was at dfifferent states. If these guys are not in code s doesnt mean they are not top class. Would you consider Jjakji top terran before Dec 1?
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
On January 10 2012 09:33 Govou wrote: at this point, it's not even debatable.
actually it's been that way for a while
It's almost disingenuous to say it was ever debatable. International TLPD is dominated by Koreans, NA and EU ladder is dominated by Koreans. It's worthwhile to discuss what might make the foreign scene stronger. Calling them lazy is stupid. It suggests foreigners don't win tournaments because they don't care which essentially shuts down any productive discussion about actual improvement.
Just saying "practice harder" is completely stupid and devoid of any thought. Practicing 12 hours a day is counterproductive because A: that other guy is practicing just as much anyway and B: he's practicing against better people. So you're at a deficit and the gap widens and widens and there's a point that throwing away hours of your life produces a negative effect anyway.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
in all honesty the best koreans didnt come : mvp nestea leenock what are you trying to say ah this thread is to stubborn to realize koreans are just better koreans > the world
This was about HSC so where do you see mvp, nestea leenock?
i said the BEST KOREANS DIDNT COME MVP NESTEA OR LEENOCK did you even read my post before replying or did you just felt like trolling?
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence.
Ret is mediocre nowadays and Thorzain/Steph well it depends on their mood
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence.
Stephano was drunk, Thorzain and Ret got eliminated by foreigners, so the koreans shouldn't get any merits.
Anyway, I don't see where this thread is going, we can argue forever ...
Anyone who is arguing that foreigners are close to the koreans, you need to go read all the statistics over again and then go take a class on logic if it still doesn't make sense. If that doesn't work, compare the streams of koreans to foreigners streams. I mean, whats the debate here? Theres an obvious big gap.
1. they have the lump sum of top level pro players, the best of the best (MVP,Nestea,leenock,MC,MMA etcetcetc) 2. A lot of pro players have trouble making it into korean gm, what does that tell you? 3. For god sake think with logic not with fandom/patriotism!
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
in all honesty the best koreans didnt come : mvp nestea leenock what are you trying to say ah this thread is to stubborn to realize koreans are just better koreans > the world
This was about HSC so where do you see mvp, nestea leenock?
i said the BEST KOREANS DIDNT COME MVP NESTEA OR LEENOCK did you even read my post before replying or did you just felt like trolling?
I misread that sorry, no need to jump out of your pants.
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence.
Stephano was drunk, Thorzain and Ret got eliminated by foreigners, so the koreans shouldn't get any merits.
Anyway, I don't see where this thread is going, we can argue forever ...
Just ask yourself. How come the handful of Koreans that are invited to compete with foreign majority, the Koreans get far and often win.
However, when a handful of foreigners go over to compete with Koreans in Code A, they don't get far at all?
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? Saying there is no difference between the top 10 koreans and top 10 foreigners is ridiculous.
I still think that korea vs the world, top 10 world vs top 10 koreans, koreans would still win 60-75 percent of the games. Just watching their streams compared to foreigners you can see a difference in their play. Honestly, I think asians are really good at anything they set their mind 2 that doesn't require size and strength. I could explain why I believe this here but this isn't an evolution forum. in a nut shell, diet and culture.
Second point, as with anything, you need to train with the best to be the best(ex.hockey in canada). if your country takes a sport/game a lot more seriously then the rest of the world, you'd better be the best lol.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence.
that's what I said earlier in this thread.
Back in MLG providence, when Koreans dominated there, you heard excuses saying how Stephan and Nerchio etc didn't come so it wasn't fair.
Now at homestory you had guys like nerchio/stephano/ret etc and now they are saying there was no Idra etc.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
In that case why have Naniwa, Sase and Thorzain (who are all top foreigners by any definition) failed to make it past Round 1 of GSL Code A? Why has Huk (who is the best foreigner) never made it past the GSL Ro8, generally lost in the group stage and now dropped into Code A? Huk even has a 44% win rate in Korea, and he's the most 'successful' foreign player in Korea.
Why has MVP won 3 out of the 4 foreign LAN's he's played in (and finished 4th in the other).
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
Oh and plenty of foreign tournaments had most of the top foreigners there, so don't even try and say it's only because it was crappy foreigners and only top koreans.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
Koreans have never sent even 50% of their best players to an event except for MLG Providence, which had a bizzare format although despite that we still had MVP and Leenock take top 4 from the open bracket plus DRG as a seed.
You can argue that the top foreign players aren't at every event all you like but the top Koreans are never at every event.
If you had MVP, MMA, ForGG, MKP, Bomber, Jjakji, Nestea, Leenock, DRG, MC at every foreign event you would never see a foreigner win again and 95% of events (with a fair structure like Dreamhack/Homestory and not MLG) would be Korean top 3.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? Saying there is no difference between the top 10 koreans and top 10 foreigners is ridiculous.
because the foreigners are outnumbered and thus their chances go willy nilly - would be what the deniers would have you believe. nothing to do with skill and everything to do with anything else that can be blamed for results that don't exist.
also the argument has already been made "these results don't matter" so all the GSL champs mean nothing to these people. it's all meaningless unless it's a foreigner who wins
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
I didn't say why don't foreigners WIN gsl. I said why don't they do better? They get absolutely raped almost every single time. It's not even close. Naniwa is 1-12 in GSL. All the swedes bombed out in the first round of Code A. Only huk has done decently, and Jinro but that was a year ago. Which is why it's absolutely ridiculous to say there is no difference between Korean top 10 players and foreigner top 10, probably one of the most ridiculous assertions I've ever heard.
Even if GSL seeded 16 foreigners into Code S every season do you think they would win? They wouldn't. Meanwhile you could put MVP in a tournament with all top foreigners and he would probably win just being the only Korean.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
cyclone25, Can you explain to me these stats and how you see them
Average Korean Participant Chances: 60.4% chance of top 8 finish 12.5% chance of being champion
Average Foreigner Participant Chances: 23.7% chance of top 8 finish 1.6% chance of being champion
(*) Keep in mind that these are not all the participants, these are just the "final bracket" contestants, the top 32, top 60, top 16, whatever may apply. There are 638 total participants tabulated, out of 26 events, so that's an average of 24.3 participants per event. So, call it top-24.
24 people per event so your last argument doesn't really make sense.
Also, can you explain the statistic that says *Korean knock out fellow Koreans %75 percent of the time in foreign tournaments?
How do these statistics not tell you a clear story?
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
We need to wait until the BW elite switch before we'll know for sure. Although I think Koreans will pull ahead futher even without them.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
Fair enough.
Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos!
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
I don't think anyone is saying that the top foreigners cannot beat the top koreans on ever. Of course they can and they have shown it in many tournaments. The point is, having the ability to beat someone on a given day does not mean you are equal in skill, it is all about winning percentage. Code B players take games off Code S players all the time in Korean. So can we say Code B is equal to code S.
Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano.
Take a look at the international TLPD, out of the top 45, only 11 are non koreans. Again, Top europeans CAN beat top koreans (like in your example), they just can't do it consistently (look at TLPD) which means they aren't as good. How 'big' that skill gap is hard to say but it is there. The koreans are just being nice when they say there is no skill gap. Do you expect them to say that foreigners are easy and they come to get easy money? Why do you think the koreans players want to join foreign teams. Salary is one factor and also the ability to go to foreign tournaments because it is just easier to do well in them compare with the GSL.
Then Korea sent two of their top 10 and foreigners sent five.
We can obviously debate the accuracy of these list (as someone could easilly debate that MKP and MC are not amongst the top 10 Koreans) but the point is that the foreign players at Homestory were much more representative of the top of the foreigner scene than the Korean representatives represented Korea.
Either way, one event should not be used to reflect everything but overall there's no way anyone can deny Korean dominance, even when a foreigner has won (like IPL 3 and MLG Orlando) Koreans have still taken the majority of the top spots at those tournaments.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
If the new units are micro/apm intensive then I would expect Koreans to do even better seen as they are generally superior mechanically.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos!
I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos!
I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit.
I feel that beta-testing (assuming that it'll happen at all) will be enough to flatten those 10-mins things out since Blizzard now knows what to look for.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos!
I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit.
I feel that beta-testing (assuming that it'll happen at all) will be enough to flatten those 10-mins things out since Blizzard now knows what to look for.
Ahh good point. I should really stop seeing things glass-half empty.
On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote: [quote] If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos!
I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit.
I feel that beta-testing (assuming that it'll happen at all) will be enough to flatten those 10-mins things out since Blizzard now knows what to look for.
Ahh good point. I should really stop seeing things glass-half empty.
If the perspective works for you, keep it that way. I just do my best to believe in Blizzard since SC2 was at least a sequel to a game which is legitimately SC2! rather than SCBW HD. I just feel that I should trust the company which really set a part for my childhood. But that's personal, right? As a whole I feel that they SHOULD beta-test before tournaments pick it up though.
On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote: The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
Fair enough.
Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions.
agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner.
will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent.
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA.
NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know...
Lol I say that EU is overall better than NA, not KR.
Overall better? I'd say EU faces much less Deezer/hackers in general than NA so NA GM is significantly worse than EU GM... because what pro wants to go on stream and get snipe/cheated and have all of their viewers feel bad?
Of the Masters/Diamond/Plat crowd I felt no difference scaling the ladders between the two two seasons ago... both felt about the same with more rage in NA and more cheese in EU... but my sample size of a few hundred games nothing...
Arguing that EU is generally better than NA in anything other than the absolute top of the ladder is fairly pointless because it's basically arguing that being European inherently makes you practice more/just better at Starcraft 2 than North Americans... which is kind of dumb/randomly discriminatory in my opinion.
(Admittedly, more top tier Pros live in all of Europe than in the US and Canada -.- but how would that affect the general feel of the ladders?)
On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote: Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible. You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA.
NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know...
Lol I say that EU is overall better than NA, not KR.
Overall better? I'd say EU faces much less Deezer/hackers in general than NA so NA GM is significantly worse than EU GM... because what pro wants to go on stream and get snipe/cheated and have all of their viewers feel bad?
Of the Masters/Diamond/Plat crowd I felt no difference scaling the ladders between the two two seasons ago... both felt about the same with more rage in NA and more cheese in EU... but my sample size of a few hundred games nothing...
Arguing that EU is generally better than NA in anything other than the absolute top of the ladder is fairly pointless because it's basically arguing that being European inherently makes you practice more/just better at Starcraft 2 than North Americans... which is kind of dumb/randomly discriminatory in my opinion.
(Admittedly, more top tier Pros live in all of Europe than in the US and Canada -.- but how would that affect the general feel of the ladders?)
My interpretation was that it was mainly for the high-level players since anything below that would be hell to quantify.
On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote: [quote]
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into.
You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions
So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great.
I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans?
We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts).
At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners.
And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners!
I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'.
4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head).
So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
I was really hoping Mr. Showtime would reply to me since it was him who called me out. But since you want to join in on the argument, I'll respond to you.
I did say that I specifically wrote #4 to see how he would respond to that. If you have been following conversation, this is the statement that made him label me as someone who "has not followed the proscene":
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on
Now please tell me honestly based on that table that it is a pretty safe bet to make that a Korean will win any tournament they are on. In the link above, if Koreans don't win the championship, they get 2nd place. Which make me now make this bold statement, once again. Give me a tournament where there is even just one of the top Koreans - MVP, Nestea, Leenock, even MC, and have all the top foreigners in there, given the format is fair and even, I will bet all my money on that Korean, as should anyone who knows a little something about the competitive SC2 scene.
Do you still disagree?
I was really hoping to write this reply to Mr. Showtime.
I am not big fan of making excuses, but at the last mlg some of the koreans like puzzle looked like he stayed up for 3 days straight and could not keep his eyes open. I imagine jet lag is pretty huge factor in trying to play your best. I work at computer trying to program trust me its hard to think or react fast when your very tired. I just think not every game can be taken at face value as one player truly being better then the other like people always do once they jump on the hype train.
Make a list of the top ten players in the world. Are any of them foreigner? You're an idiot unless it's Huk at 10 and your argument for putting him there is very convincing. I love Huk and he's easily my favorite player, but he's been in Korea for a long ass time and has been to the ro8 once. Now make top 20. Is there a foreigner who isn't Huk? Again, it better be Idra, Stephano, or Naniwa at 20 and your argument better be convincing or you're stupid.
Until a foreigner goes into the GSL and wins Code S, then you can't say that foreigners are even close to Koreans. If they were, then there would be more than one of them in Korea doing something other than getting knocked out of the Ro32 in both Code A (looking at you Jinro, Nani, Sase, Thorzain) and S (Looking at you Sen and Idra if he doesn't lose wednesday). The only one who has been in Code S consistently is now out of Code S and during his time there barely made a dent.
Stop making excuses, it is not close. Korea > Foreigner until someone goes into Code S and does better than Ro8. Jinro was almost a year ago now (his first ro4 run was actually more than a year ago) and no one has come close to his accomplishments since.
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low.
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
Fair enough.
Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions.
agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner.
will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent.
Foreigners definitely have a consistency problem. Thorzain, Huk, Stephano and Idra have all been knocked out of a lot of tournaments in 2011 by people a top player should never been losing to.
On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote: [quote] If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL?
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
Fair enough.
Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions.
agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner.
will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent.
Foreigners definitely have a consistency problem. Thorzain, Huk, Stephano and Idra have all been knocked out of a lot of tournaments in 2011 by people a top player should never been losing to.
Literally every top player has had a slump. Actually Stephano and Thorzain were never really on top long enough to even have a slump.
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
This is such a crock.
Do you really believe there is no gap?
Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals.
The gap is going to widen.
Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial.
YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
Fair enough.
Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions.
agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner.
will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent.
Foreigners definitely have a consistency problem. Thorzain, Huk, Stephano and Idra have all been knocked out of a lot of tournaments in 2011 by people a top player should never been losing to.
Literally every top player has had a slump. Actually Stephano and Thorzain were never really on top long enough to even have a slump.
Take MC though as an example. Even in MC's slump almost all his losses were vs good player and he still consistently came to foreign tournaments and did really well. Maybe he didn't win them all but he took: 3rd MLG Columbus. 1st Stars War China 3rd Homestory Cup 3 2nd NASL S1 2nd IEM Cologne 2nd MLG Orlando 3rd Blizzard Cup
Plus he made some GSL Ro8/Ro16's.
Outside of Korea I'd say only ESWC did he do badly and even then he made the Ro8 and lost in PvP.
Where as Huk on the other hand went out of multiple MLG's early, Dreamhack Winter early, both Assembly early, IEM Cologne early, NASL S2 early.
Thorzain has loads of similar really dodgy losses at the start of tournaments.
Idra has Trimaster, LiveZerg and many other losses.
Most top foreigners seem to be able to compete with top Koreans on occasions (though never consistently) but they lose way too much to middle of the road foreign pro's.
It's not a surprise the Koreans dominated so hard in the Homestory Cup. They sent Juggernauts such as Sound, viOlet, and ReaL!
On a less assholey note, it's pretty clear Koreans are way ahead. The top 10 Foreigners don't even hold a candle to the Top 10 Koreans, and it's arguable that most top Foreigners are Code B level. Hence why those who have gone to Korea are all currently in Code B, except Huk. [Idra and Sen don't count, they were given Code S]
On January 10 2012 09:35 HybridZ wrote: Korean's are better. Just watching their streams you can see a difference in their play compared to foreigners. Their multitasking/speed is usually superior.
Question: Have you guys ever seen asian people play ping pong? Nuts...
Evolutions fact and I think it is totally reasonable to believe that over time with a better/different diet a certain group of people can become naturally more skilled or better at completing certain tasks that require a certain amount of natural ability to play at the highest level. Totally reasonable to believe this..
On January 10 2012 10:22 HybridZ wrote: I still think that korea vs the world, top 10 world vs top 10 koreans, koreans would still win 60-75 percent of the games. Just watching their streams compared to foreigners you can see a difference in their play. Honestly, I think asians are really good at anything they set their mind 2 that doesn't require size and strength. I could explain why I believe this here but this isn't an evolution forum. in a nut shell, diet and culture.
Second point, as with anything, you need to train with the best to be the best(ex.hockey in canada). if your country takes a sport/game a lot more seriously then the rest of the world, you'd better be the best lol.
If your ancestors ate Kimchi, you will be a better SC2 player?
If you really want to go down this road, there are plenty of Koreans born and raised outside of Korea from the same evolutionary background. You should do a comparison of their SC2 accomplishments compared to their population size, and examine the ratio against Koreans in Korea. It's better to have some sort of data, rather than resort to assertions such "asians are good at ping pong" as your justification.
Even assuming you were right on some level, there's much more evidence that the skill gap has significantly more to do with environment at this point in time. Your explanation has to account for the magnitude of the success. That is, take Korea's population vs the world, and compare it to their success vs the world. Yet still, you have to explain Korean success compared to populations with similar evolutionary backgrounds (i.e. I'd assume China, Taiwan, Japan, etc), while simultaneously explaining the lack of success of their neighbors in a logically consistent fashion.
On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote: (3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound.
What? LOL
Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.
In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.
I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii
so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.
EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.
The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.
Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3.
What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence.
Stephano was drunk, Thorzain and Ret got eliminated by foreigners, so the koreans shouldn't get any merits.
Anyway, I don't see where this thread is going, we can argue forever ...
and stephano being drunk was total justification? definitely not his fault oh no sir.
I think the level of BW in korea matters a lot. There is nearly no top foreigner that hasnt played BW or WC3 on an higher level. They have years of RTS practice. But noone of them was near the level of korean BW-players. However, the gap is much smaller now in SC2 then in BW.
People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
because wc3 isn t that famous in korea, and i dont think wc3 players had a training schedule like bw pros have
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
because wc3 isn t that famous in korea, and i dont think wc3 players had a training schedule like bw pros have
The korean wc3 scene died because the guy in charge of the WC3 league on MBCGame edited the maps at first to make one player win (as an underdog to make the game more popular) and then later on to fix what he viewed as imbalances in the game by editing unit stats (orc units got a little more armor/attack speed, night elf got nerfed a bit, etc.) Essentially, night elf was to WC3 as terran was to sc2 recently (or now? haven't really been following), with basically half of the league being night elves, which led to people getting bored, etc.
edit: Also moon, lyn, soccer, and maybe a few more were all on wemadefox, living in the team house, practicing with the same schedule as the BW progamers, and occasionally playing in the weekly in-house ranking tournaments (which moon apparently did surprisingly well in, with 30% games won or something)
On January 12 2012 02:26 Fourn wrote: Foreigners put up a good showing in GSL this season.
wait wat
Yeah Idra is such a noob, playing in such an easy group with only the 2 3 time GSL champions.
I re-read my post a few times just to make sure I wasn't going crazy because I'm 100% certain I did not call him a noob. For the record, he only played 1 of the GSL champions.
If you want to try to argue he did well in this tournament then by all means go ahead, amuse me.
On January 12 2012 07:55 Smigi wrote: One day their will be a foreigner that will change this, bring home a GSL Code S championship.
Yeah, when GSL offers more money than what people can get with an average job on a consistent basis. Then non-koreans will train harder and be more serious and not look at this as a game, but more of a way to live. And then you'll have a better practice environment and more support. And then finally when gaming gets you the girls or money (either or), people will look back and realize that was the only difference.
On January 12 2012 07:55 Smigi wrote: One day their will be a foreigner that will change this, bring home a GSL Code S championship.
Yeah, when GSL offers more money than what people can get with an average job on a consistent basis. Then non-koreans will train harder and be more serious and not look at this as a game, but more of a way to live. And then you'll have a better practice environment and more support. And then finally when gaming gets you the girls or money (either or), people will look back and realize that was the only difference.
We should look into the amount of money progamers make and see how that compares to a regular job. Upteen hours of practice among other things...
The superiority of the Koreans appears to be a combination of curtual stature of the players in korea along with a significantly larger mindshare of information from the BW days of professional korean competition. There are numerous parallels to for instance the NBA in the US and foriegn leagues like the Spanish and Chinese leagues. Its not that those players overseas cannot compete with US players, in fact many foreigners end up playing for NBA teams, but the cultural status of a professional basketball player adds extra incentive to develop for players as they are starting out. Also there is a tremendous mindshare of basketball theory and coaching built up over the years from the high school/college/pro levels. These advantages make the foreigners way behind in recruitment of the best prospective talent, the development of that talent, and the players they do actually develop end up being sniped by the bigger leagues and the chance at the big payday.
It will take sometime to close this gap, however as with the example of the NBA and Foreign leagues, the gap shrinks each year, and eventually I believe it will begin to normalize. However as long as the largest share of the money and fame being dispensed are coming from Korea, it will continue to dominate competition and draw away prospective talent from the Foreign teams.
On January 12 2012 08:39 TheTurk wrote: Wish Stephano had done better. Would have messed up all these stats easy.
I wish Thorzain had done better. Would have messed up all these stats easy I wish Hasuobs had done better. Would have messed up all these stats easy. I wish Ret had done better. Would have messed up all these stats easy.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
You know there are quite a few guys who play this game who have those skills you outlined right? We have a lot of smarties.
Your comments are really out there. A lot of Korean parents frowned up their kids playing BW and becoming pro's at first if you read a lot of their interviews.
As someone who used to watch in awe and amazement at the top EU and NA players. After I received exposure to Koreans for the first time at MLG Colombus, I've never looked back. Nowadays watching non-korean players duking it out just feels so slow and dull and I cant bare to watch it. Although I whole-heartedly admit, watching koreans fighting the top NA/EU players is still fun and interesting!
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
You know there are quite a few guys who play this game who have those skills you outlined right? We have a lot of smarties.
Your comments are really out there. A lot of Korean parents frowned up their kids playing BW and becoming pro's at first if you read a lot of their interviews.
O_O
Since when has IQ ever been a good indicator of intelligence anyway?
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
You claim to know a lot about Wc3, but you don't know about Moon? what...the...fuck. I don't even follow Wc3, but seriously?
Where in my post I said Moon wasn't a top player? Read again. He's up there with Grubby and Sky but he didn't dominated anything. I mean not something like Flash does in BW.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
warcraft 3 was like playschool rts.
very limited in actually strategy. matter of fact wc3 for the most part was a disappointment and overall in KOrea it was a joke and they didn't take it seriously.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
Wc3 wasn't a serious RTS professionally like Brood War or Sc2. Sase, Naniwa, Tod and Thorzain have all said it was far, far easier to be a professional in Wc3 than in Sc2.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
Wc3 wasn't a serious RTS professionally like Brood War or Sc2. Sase, Naniwa, Tod and Thorzain have all said it was far, far easier to be a professional in Wc3 than in Sc2.
Warcraft 3 had more prize money and a larger audience than BW did, how wasn't it serious? Moon and Grubby were probably winning as much as Flash or Jaedong. They were also practicing 10+ hours daily.
Yes, koreans didn't had like 10 practice houses for w3 players, but neither did the foreigner players. It was a equal battleground for everyone and koreans didn't dominated it.
We're not comparing Korean BW with korean W3 here. It's about koreans vs foreigners in Warcraft 3.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
Wc3 wasn't a serious RTS professionally like Brood War or Sc2. Sase, Naniwa, Tod and Thorzain have all said it was far, far easier to be a professional in Wc3 than in Sc2.
Warcraft 3 had more prize money and a larger audience than BW did, how wasn't it serious? Moon and Grubby were probably winning as much as Flash or Jaedong. They were also practicing 10+ hours daily.
Yes, koreans didn't had like 10 practice houses for w3 players, but neither did the foreigner players. It was a equal battleground for everyone and koreans didn't dominated it.
We're not comparing Korean BW with korean W3 here. It's about koreans vs foreigners in Warcraft 3.
You had this for Warcraft 3?
Thought not.
Brood War was by far the biggest, most professional and most difficult ESports.
Were Wc3 teams sponsored by major phone companies and companies like Samsung, Korean Air and Shinhan Bank? These are massive multinational corporations. A little different to Steelseries and Razer.
Why do you assume you know more what it takes than professional Wc3 players who have all said it wasn't that hard to be a pro in Wc3 compared to Sc2?
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
Wc3 wasn't a serious RTS professionally like Brood War or Sc2. Sase, Naniwa, Tod and Thorzain have all said it was far, far easier to be a professional in Wc3 than in Sc2.
Warcraft 3 had more prize money and a larger audience than BW did, how wasn't it serious? Moon and Grubby were probably winning as much as Flash or Jaedong. They were also practicing 10+ hours daily.
Yes, koreans didn't had like 10 practice houses for w3 players, but neither did the foreigner players. It was a equal battleground for everyone and koreans didn't dominated it.
We're not comparing Korean BW with korean W3 here. It's about koreans vs foreigners in Warcraft 3.
warcraft 3 skill ceiling was a joke.
its not a real true rts.
nobody cared about wc3, it was a huge disappointment.
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
Wc3 wasn't a serious RTS professionally like Brood War or Sc2. Sase, Naniwa, Tod and Thorzain have all said it was far, far easier to be a professional in Wc3 than in Sc2.
Warcraft 3 had more prize money and a larger audience than BW did, how wasn't it serious? Moon and Grubby were probably winning as much as Flash or Jaedong. They were also practicing 10+ hours daily.
Yes, koreans didn't had like 10 practice houses for w3 players, but neither did the foreigner players. It was a equal battleground for everyone and koreans didn't dominated it.
We're not comparing Korean BW with korean W3 here. It's about koreans vs foreigners in Warcraft 3.
You had this for Warcraft 3?
Thought not.
Brood War was by far the biggest, most professional and most difficult ESports.
Were Wc3 teams sponsored by major phone companies and companies like Samsung, Korean Air and Shinhan Bank? These are massive multinational corporations. A little different to Steelseries and Razer.
Why do you assume you know more what it takes than professional Wc3 players who have all said it wasn't that hard to be a pro in Wc3 compared to Sc2?
What part of "we're not comparing korean bw to w3" you didn't understood??
I'll repeat it for you, I'm talking about korean w3 vs foreigner w3. Someone said said the koreans are naturally "smarter", but I didn't saw it in w3. And you come here comparing BW win W3 ... wtf
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
Wc3 wasn't a serious RTS professionally like Brood War or Sc2. Sase, Naniwa, Tod and Thorzain have all said it was far, far easier to be a professional in Wc3 than in Sc2.
Warcraft 3 had more prize money and a larger audience than BW did, how wasn't it serious? Moon and Grubby were probably winning as much as Flash or Jaedong. They were also practicing 10+ hours daily.
Yes, koreans didn't had like 10 practice houses for w3 players, but neither did the foreigner players. It was a equal battleground for everyone and koreans didn't dominated it.
We're not comparing Korean BW with korean W3 here. It's about koreans vs foreigners in Warcraft 3.
You had this for Warcraft 3?
Thought not.
Brood War was by far the biggest, most professional and most difficult ESports.
Were Wc3 teams sponsored by major phone companies and companies like Samsung, Korean Air and Shinhan Bank? These are massive multinational corporations. A little different to Steelseries and Razer.
Why do you assume you know more what it takes than professional Wc3 players who have all said it wasn't that hard to be a pro in Wc3 compared to Sc2?
What part of "we're not comparing korean bw to w3" you didn't understood??
I'll repeat it for you, I'm talking about korean w3 vs foreigner w3. Someone said said the koreans are naturally "smarter", but I didn't saw it in w3. And you come here comparing BW win W3 ... wtf
On January 10 2012 18:46 xrapture wrote: People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
If koreans are "smarter" why didn't they dominate in Warcraft 3 too?
They didn't play Wc3. They did have Moon, the best player of all time though.
What a clueless post .... they had a lot of players practicing w3 full time. I can name at least 30 korean players that were part of sponsored teams and were practicing at least 8 hours daily. China and Europe had about the same number of top players.
You probably don't know anything about w3, and only heard about Moon because Tastosis hyped him during GSL's.
Anyway, koreans didn't dominated Warcraft 3. Unlike BroodWar, they never won WCG except the last 2 years when w3 died in Europe. Other tournaments weren't dominated by them either. Players like Grubby, Sky, TH000, ToD, Fly100% were never underdogs to them.
I just hate the mentality of foreigner players that have a BW background. They think the koreans are untouchable and this cuts into their motivation a lot. As for w3, you won't see players like Naniwa, Thorzain or Stephano playing "scared" vs koreans. Grubby, SaSe or ToD are also improving very fast and soon enough they won't start as underdogs vs koreans. The only bw player I like is Mana, he's still improving fast. Sen and IdrA are ok too, but I feel they won't get any better in the near future.
Wc3 wasn't a serious RTS professionally like Brood War or Sc2. Sase, Naniwa, Tod and Thorzain have all said it was far, far easier to be a professional in Wc3 than in Sc2.
Warcraft 3 had more prize money and a larger audience than BW did, how wasn't it serious? Moon and Grubby were probably winning as much as Flash or Jaedong. They were also practicing 10+ hours daily.
Yes, koreans didn't had like 10 practice houses for w3 players, but neither did the foreigner players. It was a equal battleground for everyone and koreans didn't dominated it.
We're not comparing Korean BW with korean W3 here. It's about koreans vs foreigners in Warcraft 3.
You had this for Warcraft 3?
Thought not.
Brood War was by far the biggest, most professional and most difficult ESports.
Were Wc3 teams sponsored by major phone companies and companies like Samsung, Korean Air and Shinhan Bank? These are massive multinational corporations. A little different to Steelseries and Razer.
Why do you assume you know more what it takes than professional Wc3 players who have all said it wasn't that hard to be a pro in Wc3 compared to Sc2?
What part of "we're not comparing korean bw to w3" you didn't understood??
I'll repeat it for you, I'm talking about korean w3 vs foreigner w3. Someone said said the koreans are naturally "smarter", but I didn't saw it in w3. And you come here comparing BW win W3 ... wtf
Koreans and Chinese players dominated Wc3. China doesn't really play Sc2 still mostly Wc3 and Dota.
Don't pretend Europe/NA was as good as Korea in Wc3. Only Grubby competed regularly and sometimes Tod.
WCG doesn't count. It's for lots of different games.
Again Sase, Thorzain, Naniwa they have all said Wc3 was nowhere near as competitive as Sc2.
Ok, I'm done with you guys. You have no clue about w3 and you just google random stuff about it.
"WCG doesn't count": Ask any w3 pro, this was the event that everyone wanted to win. It's like the GSL of Warcraft 3.
I'll tell you what doesn't count: the last 2-3 years when w3 died in Europe and only a few top players remained active in China/Korea. But feel free to compare korean/chinese achievements to europen achievements for these years if lying yourself makes you feel better.
We're way off topic here, but that's just because I give attention to posters like you ... arguing with people who think "W3 was a failure and not a true RTS" ... OK.
What the hell is with "JYP: Arguably the true second place" and "Violet: [...] and had some help from the Battle.net gods in beating MarineKing", such dumb and completely irrelevant comments...