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On January 10 2012 07:49 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:30 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:11 chenchen wrote:Most of you foreigner fanboys are seriously delusional. Look at the tournaments with Koreans that foreigners have managed to win. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsHuk, Stephano, and Naniwa have like one significant win each . . . at tournaments that had foreigner majorities and Korean minorities on foreign soil. "Someone made a list earlier and I think foreigners won more tournaments" . . No, not true at all. Koreans still win the vast majority of major international events that they attend. Let's take the result from September: Blizzard cup had 8 top koreans vs 2 top foreigners. The result of this tournament should be excluded from start because koreans start with a 80% chance to win it assuming players are equally skilled. AoL had only koreans, excluded too. Same story for GSL: for example, the last one had 31 koreans and 1 foreigner in Code S, you simply can't look at the result of this event and say "koreans are better". Koreans: HSC 4, WCG, DreamHack, MLG, Blizzcon, IEM NY, DreamHack, NASL Foreigners: ESWC, MLG, IEM Guangzhou, IPL, MLG Koreans won 8 events, Foreigners 5. Where is the big difference? If you can't look at the number of major offline tournaments each foreigner won compared to Koreans, look at the winrate of Koreans to foreigners. It doesn't take much calculation to realise that Koreans > foreigners almost all the time. You said to look at Blizzcup. Discounting the probe rush, Naniwa had an 0-4 result and Stephano had a 2-2 result. That's 2 wins and 6 losses, a win rate of 25%. Bear in mind that Naniwa and Stephano were considered to be the best foreign players the world had to offer (Huk having dropped into Code A, and few representatives from EU like Nerchio etc). And that was considered OK. Stephano was praised for going 2-2 against some of the best Koreans in the world, Naniwa... well, everyone knows what happened after that for Naniwa. It wasn't considered a triumph for foreigners, but it wasn't considered BAD. When a 25% result is considered decent (nobody was shocked by how bad it was), you know that foreigners just aren't as consistently good as Koreans.
That's a very small sample you got to make such a big comparison. And that 25% wasn't considered decent, a lot of people expected Stephano to win AoL 
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On January 10 2012 08:05 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:59 1Eris1 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:54 fourColo wrote:On January 10 2012 07:44 1Eris1 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:42 fourColo wrote:On January 10 2012 07:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:39 fourColo wrote:
Foreigners aren't lazy, I hate that stupid stereotype. It's garbage and more than anything indicates the shitty school your respective country has since it failed to teach critical thinking skills.
Koreans have VAST advantages over pretty much every country. Amazing infrastructure, dense population, existing talent from BW, PC cafes, etc. Even esports broadcasted on TV will help groom small children. When Boxer won his first starleague, Flash was eight years old -- a great age to find a rolemodel. Most Koreans live in a huge city that can easily support team houses and the country has gigantic industries that are already setup for sponsoring pro teams. Actually yeah, a considerable amount of foreigners ARE lazy. Plenty of them say they only play 3-4 hours a day, compared to the general 8-12 of the Koreans. Plenty of Koreans don't practice as much as they should too though. The top foreigners practice hard, and calling foreigners lazy is insulting to them. It doesn't do the mid-low tier foreigners any good either, as it sets expectations artificially low. I said a considerable amount of foreigners are lazy. I know Idra and Naniwa practice alot, and thats why they are sucessful. And no, not all Koreans practice very hard. Guess where you will find most of them? In Code B. I gurantee you the top 64 Koreans (code A and S) practice way more on average than the top 64 foreigners. First of all you have no real data to support this stupid stereotype. Second, if you're measuring effort by hours spent practicing, a lot of this can be explained by the lack of foreign team houses. And the answer to the lack of team houses isn't just "go build a team house", it requires significant investment by the team, the sponsors, and the players, often much much more than is required for a Korean team house. Koreans can just rent out an apartment in Seoul and house a dozen or so players easily. Most teams have A team and B team players and are constantly shuffling them around. SlayerS for example holds qualifier tournaments for random dudes to get scouted. EG is one of the few foreign teams with a house but they're not going to get a big turnout if they hold random qualifier tournaments in Arizona. It's not even clear they can support a bunch of B team players who aren't all expected to give results and big showings. What I'm saying is that the infrastructure difference is so incomparably in favor of the Koreans that it's completely stupid to generalize EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT KOREA and call them lazy. Err, do you really want me to link each individual foreigner talking about how much they play? And most Korean game houses require you to practice a lot if you want to stay in it, and considering everyone (or 99% that is) in Code A/S is on a team... And no, I'm not saying go build a team house. I think it's a terrific idea, but hard to manage. We all know Custom with teammates>ladder, but I'd still argue 8 hours of ladder>3 hours of ladder. And they're plenty of foreigners who could easily make that jump, but they are either lazy or don't want to make the game their primary form of income. That's what I mean by lazy. I don't think if every foreigner started practicing like mad we'd close the gap completely, obviously we would need teamhouses/support for that, but I certainly think we could close the gap considerably. Uh, 99% of most Korean teams are NOT Code A/Code S. Most teams only have a handful of GSL players. Just look at any liquipedia page for any Korean team. Also remember that the liquipedia page doesn't even have an up to date list of all the players since the teams don't feel it necessary to update the lists with their nonamers. If you don't even think that just grinding out hours of practice would close the skill gap, don't call foreigners lazy.
I think you misunderstood him, he didn't say that 99% of the korean teams are in code A/S but that 99% of the koreans that are in code A/S are in a team which sounds pretty right.
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On January 10 2012 07:58 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:52 naux wrote:On January 10 2012 07:46 Strivers wrote:On January 10 2012 07:32 ReachTheSky wrote:
Koreans are better because they actually dedicate themselves to play 10-12 hours a day. If foreigners did that i'm sure they would be able to compete with higher chances of winning. Foreigners are lazy. That seems to be what the foreigner fans say. They think practice = become best players in the world. It's not that simple imo. Practice can improve your mechanics but what about game knowledge, APM, multi-tasking ability, being fearless, composure under high pressure, and just overall IQ, etc. There's always that natural ability element ppl cannot get through 12 hours of practice. seriously? wheres the argument in that of course practice increases and improves what you just said........ How are you even supposed to practice in NA? In the most recent tournament, HSC, Koreans outnumbered North Americans almost 2-1. Literally 0 NA players made it to the second stage of group play. 12 hours of practice on the NA server sounds like a total waste of time. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote:
Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible.
You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners. This would be huge and incredibly beneficial.
uh no the north americans out numbered the koreans by like 3-1... people are making to many excuses on why a foreigner didnt win HSC "stephano was drunk" "idra wasnt there" "foreigners just wanted to have fun" "koreans practice 12 hrs a day"
well not the koreans fault that the players were getting drunk im i right? i would rather win HSC then just get wasted out of my mind foreigners practice as hard as koreans. Why do you think they go to korea to go get wasted and pick up chicks? no they go there to train just like a korean.. and why is there more korean results then foreigners because KOREANS ARE JUST BETTER
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On January 10 2012 07:59 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote:
Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible.
You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners. Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
I don't think his suggestion was unreasonable. It's bad from NA to Korea as well. Just because EU is even worse doesn't mean it's very playable from NA. If all could play on Korean ladder with minor latancy it would surely lead to an increase in skill overall.
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On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E
Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?
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On January 10 2012 07:59 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote:
Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible.
You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners. Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense.
You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA.
NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know...
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Alright, I don't think this was done before, but using the Premier Tournaments Page on Liquidpedia, and selecting foreign tournaments (no GSL, no special GSL events, no events with only koreans), I made this below. For the MLGs, I selected only from the Final Tournament brackets and not included open (because that'd just skew it towards Koreans even more). For every other tournament, I used the brackets shown (usually Ro32).
And before anyone complain about which koreans I selected - I discounted Moonan and Select, but included Puma and Hero as Koreans.
2010
Dreamhack Winter - 30 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naama, 1 Korean in Top 8
2011
IEM Season V World Championship - 9 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Ace, 3 Koreans in Top 8
TSL 3 - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner Thorzain, 2 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Stockholm - 7 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner MC
NASL Season 1 - 16 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner Puma, 5 Koreans in Top 8
Copenhagen Games - 57 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MC, 1 Korean in Top 8
Starwars Killer 6 - 18 Foreigners, 14 Koreans, Winner MC, 2 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Columbus - 19 Foreigners, 5 Koreans, Winner MMA, 4 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Summer - 44 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Huk, 4 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Anaheim - 18 Foreigners, 6 Koreans, Winner MVP, 6 Koreans in Top 8
Assembly Summer - 31 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner Dimaga, 0 Koreans in Top 8
IEM Cologne - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Raleigh - 15 Foreigners, 9 Koreans, Winner Bomber, 6 koreans in Top 8
MLG Invitationals - 2 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naniwa
NASL 2 - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Valencia - 5 Foreigners, 3 koreans, Winner Dongraegu
IPL Season 3 - 19 Foreigners, 13 Koreans, Winner Stephano, 5 Koreans in Top 8
IEM Guangzhou[/b] - 12 Foreigners, [b]4 Koreans, Winner IdrA, 3 Koreans in Top 8
IEM New York - 12 Foreigners, 4 koreans, Winner Dongraegu, 4 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Orlando - 14 Foreigners, 10 koreans, Winner Huk, 6 Koreans in Top 8
Blizzcon Invitationals - 14 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner MVP, 2 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Providence - 17 Foreigners, 15 Koreans, Winner Leenock, 4 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Winter - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Hero, 3 Koreans in Top 8
World Cybergames - 45 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MVP, 3 Koreans in Top 8
Blizzard Cup - 2 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner MMA
2012
Homestory Cup - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner MC, 6 koreans in Top 8
To my recollection, TSL 3 and Starwars were online and people keep saying lag is a factor. And the World Cybergames, even though it's 45 foreigners, had a lotta crappy foreigners because of their invite system. Otherwise, everything else should be accurate.
So from the above, the Koreans have won 18 out of 26 foreign premier tournaments.
Sorry for the terrible format, it's freezing cold and I wanted to whip this up in a jiffy.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?
If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be?
And I don't smoke; though I appreciate you asking.
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On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking? If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be?
Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 10 2012 08:20 Olinimm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking? If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be? Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.
And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
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I am generally confused by what is being argued by here's my two cents.
It cannot be disputed that in the general results, which means looking at all of the results in tournaments, korean have significantly better results in all of the tournaments they go to. Yes stephano won IPL3. But the next three places were all korean. Yes huk got first and idra got 4th at orlando. But in the top 15, 11 were korean, the only korean that didn't make it was inori. (whats funny is that both tournaments, idra and ret were part of the four foreginers in the top 15 MLG and the 3 foreginers in IPL top 8).
They send like 4 players to MLG and some come over to participate and most if not all place in the top 10. What does this say though? That koreans are naturally skilled? that koreans prepare more? That foreigners lack both of above? I'm not sure but I believe practice is a huge factor as well as the community that they live in.
I believe in a MLG recap a long time ago, perhaps anaheim or colombus, that one person noted how close the korean gamer proscene is. I think MVP once stated in an interview that when facing nestea, he practices against dongraegu a lot. Do you think Idra can casually call up whitera and ask him for pvz help? Koreans get a lot more help because the teams are in the same timezone and its a lot easier to set up practice dates between the best players. If he wants to, Dongraegu could probably take the subway for 30 or some and get to the IM teamhouse (i'm pulling this out of my ass but its the general idea that counts).
As for the skill gap, i think it got closer and then separated again. I feel like top foreigners exploded onto the scene due to the changes in gameplay they had, but fell behind as their opponents figured it out. Notice the era of dominance was in october/early november. After that, Naniwa lost at blizzardcup, and huk lost his code S status. Stephano arguably had the best record as he went 2-2 int he blizzard cup but his recent results have me worried.
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France12790 Posts
On January 10 2012 08:14 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:59 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote:
Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible.
You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners. Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense. You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA. NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know...
Lol I say that EU is overall better than NA, not KR.
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On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote:
Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible.
You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners.
This! Oh 100x this! You know people always say foreigners dont practice enough and thats probably true. But its got to be pretty depressing when you get such a low quality of practice as you do when compared to players in Korea. Even those who do practice a lot and do very well for themselves are at a bit of a disadvantage.
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You think it's bad now, eh boyo? When Kespa switches the BW teams over to SC2, hell will freeze over. O_O
The gap will widen from being the Black Sea to becoming the Pacific Ocean. There is just so much more talent in BW than in SC2 in Korea, and that said, SC2 is still nothing in comparison to BW there and yet they're still stomping foreigners. ((
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On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking? If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be? And I don't smoke; though I appreciate you asking.
Select is born in korea plays in NA, and you consider select a foreigner right?
Huk born in NA, plays in korea, and huks still a foreigner? GTFO
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 10 2012 08:28 Lewan72 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking? If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be? And I don't smoke; though I appreciate you asking. Select is born in korea plays in NA, and you consider select a foreigner right? Huk born in NA, plays in korea, and huks still a foreigner? GTFO
I am not sure what you are talking about. When did I say that I consider Select to be a foreigner? On the contrary, I said I consider Select a Korean a few posts up. Read before you assault me, please.
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On January 10 2012 08:23 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:20 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking? If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be? Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly. And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?
Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 10 2012 08:31 Jeity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:23 Zealously wrote:On January 10 2012 08:20 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking? If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be? Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly. And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG? Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
The Starcraft II community has trouble deciding whether Koreans have some genetic advantage when it comes to SCII or if it simply is the training environment. Personally, I think it is the second, but I chose to to base those statistics on nationality instead of living location (partly for consistency and partly because it saved time), but I believe swapping would only change it to the favor of the foreigners. No matter how you choose to look at it, the foreigner-korean percentage is at a fairly steady 35-65 / 40-60, and that is what I wanted to point out. Nitpick all you want, but then we will have to draw the line on when you are no longer "considered a Korean" - which is downright silly.
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On January 10 2012 08:31 Jeity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:23 Zealously wrote:On January 10 2012 08:20 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking? If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be? Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly. And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG? Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.
and idra is korean because of his past in bw korean scene?
lets not go off topic, its really irrelevant. if you really want to call these koreans, foreigners, might as well call beckam american, park ji sung english, messi spaniard, and cha boom german.
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On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority. JanuaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. FebruaryNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. MarchIEM World Championship - Ace (Korean). Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner) (GSL World Tournament - ) AprilMLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner) Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean) NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean) Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean) StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean) MayNo premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners. JuneDreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner) MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean) JulyIGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner) MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean) AugustIEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean) MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean) SeptemberMLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner) NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean) Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean) Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean) OctoberIGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner) IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean) MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner) Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner) Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean) NovemberMLG Providence - Leenock (Korean) Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean) DecemberWorld Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean) End Result17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship. 9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship. Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans. Draw your own conclusions. + Show Spoiler +Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage. E Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?
It doesn't even matter. His "data" is meaningless. Another guy just posted a far better analysis since it accounts for how many Koreans entered and how many got far in the tourney. For example, if the top 8 is composed of 7 Koreans and 1 foreigner and the foreigner wins, that doesn't mean the tournament was really good for foreigners on the whole. Especially if you consider something like 8 Koreans were probably invited so 88% of them made it to the top 8.
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EPT
