Statistics on HSC4, Foreigners vs. Koreans - Page 21

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hmunkey

United Kingdom1973 Posts

January 09 2012 23:41 GMT

#401

On January 10 2012 08:37 jinorazi wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2012 08:31 Jeity wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:23 Zealously wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:20 Olinimm wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:09 Zealously wrote:
Allright, so I've put all results from 2011's Premier Tournaments together, and listed them below. GSL has been excluded because of the overwhelming Korean majority.

January

No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.

February

No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.

March

IEM World Championship - Ace (Korean).
Pokerstrategy TSL3 - Thorzain (foreigner)
(GSL World Tournament - )

April

MLG Dallas - Naniwa (foreigner)
Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational - MC (Korean)
NASL Season 1 - Puma (Korean)
Copenhagen Games Spring - MC (Korean)
StarsWar Killer 6 - MC (Korean)

May

No premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners.

June

Dreamhack Summer - HuK (foreigner)
MLG Columbus - MMA (Korean)

July

IGN ProLeague Season 2 - WhiteRa (foreigner)
MLG Anaheim - MVP (Korean)

August

IEM Season VI Global Challenge Cologne - Puma (Korean)
MLG Raleigh - Bomber (Korean)

September

MLG Global Invitational - Naniwa (Foreigner)
NASL Season 2 - Puma (Korean)
Dreamhack Valencia - DongRaeGu (Korean)
Arena of Legends 1 - MarineKing (Korean)

October

IGN ProLeague Season 3 - Stephano (Foreigner)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge Guangzhou - Idra (Foreigner)
IEM Season VI Global Challenge New York - DongRaeGu (Korean)
MLG Orlando - Huk (Foreigner)
Electronic Sports World Cup - Stephano (Foreigner)
Blizzcon Starcraft II Invitational - MVP (Korean)

November

MLG Providence - Leenock (Korean)
Dreamhack Winter - Hero (Korean)

December

World Cyber Games 2011 - MVP (Korean)

End Result

17 Korean wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 18 if counting GSL World Championship.

9 Foreigner wins in premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance. 9 if counting GSL World Championship.

Out of 26 premier tournaments with both Koreans and foreigners in attendance, roughly 35% (9/26 = 0.346) were won by foreigners, and 65% were won by Koreans.
Draw your own conclusions.

+ Show Spoiler +

Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage.

Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?

If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be?

Come on dude. Select was even allowed to participate in the NORTH AMERICAN battlenet inviational. Clearly they are part of the foreign scene and including it in Korean vs Foreigner statistics is just silly.

And then we can argue that Huk is Korean for living in Korea. I based the statistics on what nation the player is from, not where they are living. If we do that, should I move Hero to foreigners because he plays on Liquid? Puma because he is on EG?

Except nationality is barely relevant compared to living location? Select has always been a part of the NA scene from the start of SC2, as well as Moonan who was a part of FXO International not FXO Korea. Hero and Puma both started out in the Korean scene and having continued living there, while Huk started out in the foreign scene and took the leap to Korea.

and idra is korean because of his past in bw korean scene?

lets not go off topic, its really irrelevant. if you really want to call these koreans, foreigners, might as well call beckam american, park ji sung english, messi spaniard, and cha boom german.

Nah, Beckham gained the bulk of his skill while in the UK, not in the US. Your argument doesn't logically make any sense.

stork4ever

United States1036 Posts

January 09 2012 23:43 GMT

#402

Damn "what is korean" question again, here is how you solve it, at each interview, ask the player "Hi (pro gamer) what do you consider yourself?" Answer= ends debate

Zealously

East Gorteau22261 Posts

January 09 2012 23:44 GMT

#403

On January 10 2012 08:39 hmunkey wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:

Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage.

Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?

It doesn't even matter. His "data" is meaningless. Another guy just posted a far better analysis since it accounts for how many Koreans entered and how many got far in the tourney. For example, if the top 8 is composed of 7 Koreans and 1 foreigner and the foreigner wins, that doesn't mean the tournament was really good for foreigners on the whole. Especially if you consider something like 8 Koreans were probably invited so 88% of them made it to the top 8.

I would cite "No one remembers the runner-up", but it really doesn't matter.
Truth is, there is no accurate way to measure the "skill gap" between Koreans and foreigners, no matter how much you investigate it all. You could also say that the whole "X koreans entered and Y got to the top 8", would also be mostly irrelevant because no team in their right mind would pay to send a player they do not believe can perform, especially when the player and team is based in South Korea.

Jeity

99 Posts

January 09 2012 23:47 GMT

#404

On January 10 2012 08:36 Zealously wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2012 08:31 Jeity wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:23 Zealously wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:20 Olinimm wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:

Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage.

Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?

If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be?

The Starcraft II community has trouble deciding whether Koreans have some genetic advantage when it comes to SCII or if it simply is the training environment. Personally, I think it is the second, but I chose to to base those statistics on nationality instead of living location (partly for consistency and partly because it saved time), but I believe swapping would only change it to the favor of the foreigners. No matter how you choose to look at it, the foreigner-korean percentage is at a fairly steady 35-65 / 40-60, and that is what I wanted to point out. Nitpick all you want, but then we will have to draw the line on when you are no longer "considered a Korean" - which is downright silly.

I don't think many people realistically think Koreans have a genetic advantage, considering I see far more people stating that this is not the case--as well as it being a flat-out stupid claim. I could also care less about how it skews statistics in favor of Koreans or foreigners. I'm only pointing out that marking Select and Moonan as part of the Korean scene is ridiculous. I can see why people argue about someone like Huk, who has had half his career inside Korea and half out; but Select and Moonan both made a name for themselves in SC2 outside of Korea. They have reaped zero benefits from the Korean scene for the vast majority of their career. Hero and Puma are logically counted as Korean because they started out in Korea and have always lived and trained there.

Arguments over whether or not a player is "korean-trained" or a foreigner should be left for players for which there could actually be logical controversy.

omgimonfire15

United States233 Posts

January 09 2012 23:47 GMT

#405

Found the post of the anaheim recap, introduces a new idea when you read the 'Korean IMBA!" section.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252093

Longshank

1648 Posts

January 09 2012 23:50 GMT

#406

Korea and GSL labels HuK a foreigner and the foreigner scene doesn't want him. Sucks to be HuK.

jinorazi

Korea (South)4948 Posts

January 09 2012 23:51 GMT

#407

On January 10 2012 08:41 hmunkey wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 10 2012 08:37 jinorazi wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:31 Jeity wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:23 Zealously wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:20 Olinimm wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:18 Zealously wrote:

On January 10 2012 08:13 Olinimm wrote:

Results will be slightly skewed because some events only featured 1-3 Koreans, but I included all of them for measure. Feel free to rage.

Umm IPL 2 didn't have Koreans. What the hell are you smoking?

If you ask dignitas.SelecT and FXOMoonan if they are Korean, what would the answer be?

Nah, Beckham gained the bulk of his skill while in the UK, not in the US. Your argument doesn't logically make any sense.

dude...i can pick out so many foreign players that went through the youth program in big european teams. you picked out beckham out of many examples and say my logic dont make sense? lol

mango_destroyer

Canada3914 Posts

January 09 2012 23:52 GMT

#408

On January 10 2012 08:43 stork4ever wrote:
Damn "what is korean" question again, here is how you solve it, at each interview, ask the player "Hi (pro gamer) what do you consider yourself?" Answer= ends debate

lol exactly. People really over think something this simple, and I find it hilarious when someone tries say Puma or Hero is considered foreigner and huk is korean......lol wat?

What some people don`t realize is that it would take the majority of the foreign scene to put up good results against koreans to ever be considered "close". Having the top 5 or so foreigners being able to compete with the koreans doesn`t mean the skill gap is close between foreigners and koreans. There is a huge pool of players in korea who can beat the top foreigners.

Sein

United States1811 Posts

January 09 2012 23:57 GMT

#409

I don't know why people are so hung up on this "foreigners vs Koreans" or "Us VS Them" thing.

Micket

United Kingdom2163 Posts

January 09 2012 23:59 GMT

#410

I think the biggest statistic someone should work out is the % of Korean losses due to Koreans. I'm not sure but I have a feeling at least 60% of Korean losses in foreign tournaments (where foreigners are at a majority) are due to being knocked out by another Korean. Actually, fuck that, I'm going to say 75%. I swear for tournaments like MLG Providence, non Koreans took less than 5 sets off Koreans (even though people were saying how foreigners had caught up due to Naniwa doing well).

Ok... done some research and the results are quite... revealing.

Number of sets where Koreans lost to foreigners: 5
Number of sets where Koreans lost to Koreans: 31 !!!

In MLG providence, when a Korean lost, 86% of the time it was by another Korean. Foreigners took 5 sets off the Koreans in total and the Koreans won EVERYTHING ELSE.

StarStruck

25339 Posts

January 10 2012 00:02 GMT

#411

On January 10 2012 08:57 Sein wrote:
I don't know why people are so hung up on this "foreigners vs Koreans" or "Us VS Them" thing.

Whatever floats their boat.

My advice is this: worry about yourself first and you cannot control everything.

YMCApylons

Taiwan359 Posts

January 10 2012 00:08 GMT

#412

On January 10 2012 08:16 JinDesu wrote:
Alright, I don't think this was done before, but using the Premier Tournaments Page on Liquidpedia, and selecting foreign tournaments (no GSL, no special GSL events, no events with only koreans), I made this below. For the MLGs, I selected only from the Final Tournament brackets and not included open (because that'd just skew it towards Koreans even more). For every other tournament, I used the brackets shown (usually Ro32).

And before anyone complain about which koreans I selected - I discounted Moonan and Select, but included Puma and Hero as Koreans.

2010
Dreamhack Winter - 30 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naama, 1 Korean in Top 8

2011
IEM Season V World Championship - 9 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Ace, 3 Koreans in Top 8
TSL 3 - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner Thorzain, 2 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Stockholm - 7 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner MC
NASL Season 1 - 16 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner Puma, 5 Koreans in Top 8
Copenhagen Games - 57 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MC, 1 Korean in Top 8
Starwars Killer 6 - 18 Foreigners, 14 Koreans, Winner MC, 2 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Columbus - 19 Foreigners, 5 Koreans, Winner MMA, 4 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Summer - 44 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Huk, 4 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Anaheim - 18 Foreigners, 6 Koreans, Winner MVP, 6 Koreans in Top 8
Assembly Summer - 31 Foreigners, 1 Korean, Winner Dimaga, 0 Koreans in Top 8
IEM Cologne - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Raleigh - 15 Foreigners, 9 Koreans, Winner Bomber, 6 koreans in Top 8
MLG Invitationals - 2 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner Naniwa
NASL 2 - 13 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner Puma, 2 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Valencia - 5 Foreigners, 3 koreans, Winner Dongraegu
IPL Season 3 - 19 Foreigners, 13 Koreans, Winner Stephano, 5 Koreans in Top 8
IEM Guangzhou[/b] - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner IdrA, 3 Koreans in Top 8
IEM New York - 12 Foreigners, 4 koreans, Winner Dongraegu, 4 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Orlando - 14 Foreigners, 10 koreans, Winner Huk, 6 Koreans in Top 8
Blizzcon Invitationals - 14 Foreigners, 2 Koreans, Winner MVP, 2 Koreans in Top 8
MLG Providence - 17 Foreigners, 15 Koreans, Winner Leenock, 4 Koreans in Top 8
Dreamhack Winter - 12 Foreigners, 4 Koreans, Winner Hero, 3 Koreans in Top 8
World Cybergames - 45 Foreigners, 3 Koreans, Winner MVP, 3 Koreans in Top 8
Blizzard Cup - 2 Foreigners, 8 Koreans, Winner MMA

2012
Homestory Cup - 25 Foreigners, 7 Koreans, Winner MC, 6 koreans in Top 8

To my recollection, TSL 3 and Starwars were online and people keep saying lag is a factor. And the World Cybergames, even though it's 45 foreigners, had a lotta crappy foreigners because of their invite system. Otherwise, everything else should be accurate.

So from the above, the Koreans have won 18 out of 26 foreign premier tournaments.

Sorry for the terrible format, it's freezing cold and I wanted to whip this up in a jiffy.

Awesome, this is great data. I used it to make this:
(Just some raw data in table form)
+ Show Spoiler +


Participants		        Top 8		
For	Kor	Totals	        For	Kor	Total
30	2	32		7	1	8
9	3	12		5	3	8
25	7	32		6	2	8
7	1	8		7	1	8
16	8	24		3	5	8
57	3	60		7	1	8
18	14	32		6	2	8
19	5	24		4	4	8
44	4	48		4	4	8
18	6	24		2	6	8
31	1	32		8	0	8
13	3	16		6	2	8
15	9	24		2	6	8
2	2	4		2	2	4
13	3	16		6	2	8
5	3	8		5	3	8
19	13	32		3	5	8
12	4	16		5	3	8
12	4	16		4	4	8
14	10	24		2	6	8
14	2	16		6	2	8
17	15	32		4	4	8
12	4	16		5	3	8
45	3	48		5	3	8
2	8	10		1	7	8
25	7	32		2	6	8

And we get these results:

Overall Participants
Foreigner: 494 (77.4%)
Korean: 144 (22.6%)

Top 8 finishes
Foreigner: 117 (57.4%)
Korean: 87 (42.6%)

Champion:
Foreigner: 8 (31%)
Korean: 18 (69%)

Average Korean Participant Chances:
60.4% chance of top 8 finish
12.5% chance of being champion

Average Foreigner Participant Chances:
23.7% chance of top 8 finish
1.6% chance of being champion

Average Korean vs. Foreigner Participant Chances:
2.55 times more likely to be a top 8 finisher
7.72 times more likely to be the champion.

I'd like to turn this into a post or edit in the OP, with your permission.

(*) Keep in mind that these are not all the participants, these are just the "final bracket" contestants, the top 32, top 60, top 16, whatever may apply. There are 638 total participants tabulated, out of 26 events, so that's an average of 24.3 participants per event. So, call it top-24.

obnoxkid

United States23 Posts

January 10 2012 00:11 GMT

#413

I am Diamond in NA and Gold in KR. Nuff said!!!

Corsica

Ukraine1854 Posts

January 10 2012 00:14 GMT

#414

On January 09 2012 11:06 eYeball wrote:

Show nested quote +

What? LOL

Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them.

In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few.

I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii

so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here.

EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners.

chenchen

United States1136 Posts

January 10 2012 00:18 GMT

#415

On January 10 2012 09:14 Corsica wrote:

Show nested quote +

The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S.

naux

Canada738 Posts

January 10 2012 00:20 GMT

#416

On January 10 2012 09:14 Corsica wrote:

Show nested quote +

in all honesty the best koreans didnt come : mvp nestea leenock
what are you trying to say
ah this thread is to stubborn to realize koreans are just better
koreans > the world

Assirra

Belgium4169 Posts

January 10 2012 00:32 GMT

#417

On January 10 2012 09:20 naux wrote:

Show nested quote +

in all honesty the best koreans didnt come : mvp nestea leenock
what are you trying to say
ah this thread is to stubborn to realize koreans are just better
koreans > the world

This was about HSC so where do you see mvp, nestea leenock?

fourColo

United States363 Posts

January 10 2012 00:33 GMT

#418

On January 10 2012 09:18 chenchen wrote:

Show nested quote +

MC is still arguably the best protoss in the world and unarguably the most accomplished.

Govou

Canada1072 Posts

January 10 2012 00:33 GMT

#419

at this point, it's not even debatable.

actually it's been that way for a while

HybridZ

Canada103 Posts

January 10 2012 00:35 GMT

#420

Korean's are better. Just watching their streams you can see a difference in their play compared to foreigners. Their multitasking/speed is usually superior.

Question: Have you guys ever seen asian people play ping pong? Nuts...

Evolutions fact and I think it is totally reasonable to believe that over time with a better/different diet a certain group of people can become naturally more skilled or better at completing certain tasks that require a certain amount of natural ability to play at the highest level. Totally reasonable to believe this..

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