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On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? Saying there is no difference between the top 10 koreans and top 10 foreigners is ridiculous.
because the foreigners are outnumbered and thus their chances go willy nilly - would be what the deniers would have you believe. nothing to do with skill and everything to do with anything else that can be blamed for results that don't exist.
also the argument has already been made "these results don't matter" so all the GSL champs mean nothing to these people. it's all meaningless unless it's a foreigner who wins
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Seraphone these guys are in serious denial.
They love to cherry pick.
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On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse.
+1+1+1
Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
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On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison.
I didn't say why don't foreigners WIN gsl. I said why don't they do better? They get absolutely raped almost every single time. It's not even close. Naniwa is 1-12 in GSL. All the swedes bombed out in the first round of Code A. Only huk has done decently, and Jinro but that was a year ago. Which is why it's absolutely ridiculous to say there is no difference between Korean top 10 players and foreigner top 10, probably one of the most ridiculous assertions I've ever heard.
Even if GSL seeded 16 foreigners into Code S every season do you think they would win? They wouldn't. Meanwhile you could put MVP in a tournament with all top foreigners and he would probably win just being the only Korean.
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On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note.
A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T
These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
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On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill.
Same thing will happen with sc2.
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cyclone25, Can you explain to me these stats and how you see them
Average Korean Participant Chances:
60.4% chance of top 8 finish
12.5% chance of being champion
Average Foreigner Participant Chances:
23.7% chance of top 8 finish
1.6% chance of being champion
(*) Keep in mind that these are not all the participants, these are just the "final bracket" contestants, the top 32, top 60, top 16, whatever may apply. There are 638 total participants tabulated, out of 26 events, so that's an average of 24.3 participants per event. So, call it top-24.
24 people per event so your last argument doesn't really make sense.
Also, can you explain the statistic that says *Korean knock out fellow Koreans %75 percent of the time in foreign tournaments?
How do these statistics not tell you a clear story?
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On January 10 2012 10:51 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill. Same thing will happen with sc2.
I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
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On January 10 2012 10:54 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:51 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill. Same thing will happen with sc2. I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
We need to wait until the BW elite switch before we'll know for sure. Although I think Koreans will pull ahead futher even without them.
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On January 10 2012 10:54 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:51 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill. Same thing will happen with sc2. I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate.
Fair enough.
Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions.
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On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive.
If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you.
Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
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On January 10 2012 11:00 MetalLobster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you. Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work!  Kuuuudos!
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The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal.
I don't think anyone is saying that the top foreigners cannot beat the top koreans on ever. Of course they can and they have shown it in many tournaments. The point is, having the ability to beat someone on a given day does not mean you are equal in skill, it is all about winning percentage. Code B players take games off Code S players all the time in Korean. So can we say Code B is equal to code S.
Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano.
Take a look at the international TLPD, out of the top 45, only 11 are non koreans. Again, Top europeans CAN beat top koreans (like in your example), they just can't do it consistently (look at TLPD) which means they aren't as good. How 'big' that skill gap is hard to say but it is there. The koreans are just being nice when they say there is no skill gap. Do you expect them to say that foreigners are easy and they come to get easy money? Why do you think the koreans players want to join foreign teams. Salary is one factor and also the ability to go to foreign tournaments because it is just easier to do well in them compare with the GSL.
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If we consider that the top 10 players for each "side" is:
Korea: MVP, MMA, ForGG, MKP, Jjakji. Bomber, Leenock, Nestea, DRG, MC.
Foreigners: Thorzain, Huk, Naniwa, Sase, Sen, Idra, Ret, Stephano, Nerchio, Dimaga.
Then Korea sent two of their top 10 and foreigners sent five.
We can obviously debate the accuracy of these list (as someone could easilly debate that MKP and MC are not amongst the top 10 Koreans) but the point is that the foreign players at Homestory were much more representative of the top of the foreigner scene than the Korean representatives represented Korea.
Either way, one event should not be used to reflect everything but overall there's no way anyone can deny Korean dominance, even when a foreigner has won (like IPL 3 and MLG Orlando) Koreans have still taken the majority of the top spots at those tournaments.
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Take a look at the international TLPD, out of the top 45, only 11 are non koreans. .
The fact that there needs to be an international TLPD shows the skill gap.
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On January 10 2012 11:00 MetalLobster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you. Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense.
If the new units are micro/apm intensive then I would expect Koreans to do even better seen as they are generally superior mechanically.
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On January 10 2012 11:05 stork4ever wrote:Show nested quote +
Take a look at the international TLPD, out of the top 45, only 11 are non koreans. .
The fact that there needs to be an international TLPD shows the skill gap.
Holy shit! It's stork4ever.
On a more related topic, I agree.
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On January 10 2012 11:01 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 11:00 MetalLobster wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you. Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense. This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos!
I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit.
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On January 10 2012 11:11 MetalLobster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 11:01 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 11:00 MetalLobster wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you. Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense. This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos! I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit.
I feel that beta-testing (assuming that it'll happen at all) will be enough to flatten those 10-mins things out since Blizzard now knows what to look for.
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On January 10 2012 11:05 stork4ever wrote:Show nested quote +
Take a look at the international TLPD, out of the top 45, only 11 are non koreans. .
The fact that there needs to be an international TLPD shows the skill gap.
I disagree. That's an issue of money and tournaments not being comparable.
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EPT
