|
On January 10 2012 11:14 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 11:11 MetalLobster wrote:On January 10 2012 11:01 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 11:00 MetalLobster wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:
[quote]
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you. Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense. This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work!  Kuuuudos! I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit. I feel that beta-testing (assuming that it'll happen at all) will be enough to flatten those 10-mins things out since Blizzard now knows what to look for.
Ahh good point. I should really stop seeing things glass-half empty.
|
On January 10 2012 11:16 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 11:05 stork4ever wrote:
Take a look at the international TLPD, out of the top 45, only 11 are non koreans. .
The fact that there needs to be an international TLPD shows the skill gap. I disagree. That's an issue of money and tournaments not being comparable.
In which case why is MLG Providence counted alongside Playhem Daily NA Episode 53?
Or why is KSL counted alongside a GSL Finals?
|
On January 10 2012 11:19 MetalLobster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 11:14 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 11:11 MetalLobster wrote:On January 10 2012 11:01 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 11:00 MetalLobster wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:
[quote]
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. If you are bringing up a good point and not going "BW > SC2 har har", I don't see why people would hate you. Anyhow, I do agree with your point but with HOTS and the protoss expansion (what as it called again?), I feel like the new units and such with reset the skill gap, if that makes any sense. This may be overused slightly, but "It had damn well better!" never seemed like a more appropriate quote. I mean what's the point of releasing an expansion if you don't change stuff that didn't work! Kuuuudos! I'm still anxious about the release. When SC2 came out, games lasted an average 10 mins and was a cheese-fest, because players were exploiting timings that have been worked out and patched as of now. Let alone the fact that good players that have really good mechanics were getting beat by players like LiveForever and bitbybit. I feel that beta-testing (assuming that it'll happen at all) will be enough to flatten those 10-mins things out since Blizzard now knows what to look for. Ahh good point. I should really stop seeing things glass-half empty.
If the perspective works for you, keep it that way.  I just do my best to believe in Blizzard since SC2 was at least a sequel to a game which is legitimately SC2! rather than SCBW HD. I just feel that I should trust the company which really set a part for my childhood. But that's personal, right? As a whole I feel that they SHOULD beta-test before tournaments pick it up though.
|
On January 10 2012 10:57 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:54 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:51 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:07 MannerMan wrote:
The best koreans weren't there, but neither were many of the best foreigners, and I think the argument is that top foreigners can beat anyone on any given day, but not that the second tiers are equal. Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious. There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them. People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill. Same thing will happen with sc2. I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate. Fair enough. Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions.
agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner.
will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent.
|
On January 10 2012 08:25 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:14 ShatterZer0 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:59 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote:
Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible.
You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners. Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense. You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA. NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know... Lol I say that EU is overall better than NA, not KR.
Overall better? I'd say EU faces much less Deezer/hackers in general than NA so NA GM is significantly worse than EU GM... because what pro wants to go on stream and get snipe/cheated and have all of their viewers feel bad?
Of the Masters/Diamond/Plat crowd I felt no difference scaling the ladders between the two two seasons ago... both felt about the same with more rage in NA and more cheese in EU... but my sample size of a few hundred games nothing...
Arguing that EU is generally better than NA in anything other than the absolute top of the ladder is fairly pointless because it's basically arguing that being European inherently makes you practice more/just better at Starcraft 2 than North Americans... which is kind of dumb/randomly discriminatory in my opinion.
(Admittedly, more top tier Pros live in all of Europe than in the US and Canada -.- but how would that affect the general feel of the ladders?)
|
On January 10 2012 11:40 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:25 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2012 08:14 ShatterZer0 wrote:On January 10 2012 07:59 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2012 07:54 Elefanto wrote:
Make the Korean ladder playable for everyone with as little latency as possible.
You'll see a huge improvement from the foreigners. Lol? NA players can play on either KR or EU, and still EU are better overall. That doesn't make sense. You trollin'? EU better over all? Even Khaldor admits getting into masters in KR is mega hard even though he's pretty high ranked Masters in EU and just about the same NA. NA players on the WEST coast get half decent lat on KR... Texas is pretty meh and East coast is absolutely horrible... I know... Lol I say that EU is overall better than NA, not KR. Overall better? I'd say EU faces much less Deezer/hackers in general than NA so NA GM is significantly worse than EU GM... because what pro wants to go on stream and get snipe/cheated and have all of their viewers feel bad? Of the Masters/Diamond/Plat crowd I felt no difference scaling the ladders between the two two seasons ago... both felt about the same with more rage in NA and more cheese in EU... but my sample size of a few hundred games nothing... Arguing that EU is generally better than NA in anything other than the absolute top of the ladder is fairly pointless because it's basically arguing that being European inherently makes you practice more/just better at Starcraft 2 than North Americans... which is kind of dumb/randomly discriminatory in my opinion. (Admittedly, more top tier Pros live in all of Europe than in the US and Canada -.- but how would that affect the general feel of the ladders?)
My interpretation was that it was mainly for the high-level players since anything below that would be hell to quantify.
|
On January 10 2012 03:55 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:36 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 03:30 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:27 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:21 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:16 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 03:10 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 03:07 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:
[quote]
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone! EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big! Wow this is sad and pathetic. Pay attention to the tournament scene and you'll see that foreigners have been winning several events that Koreans enter into. You are sad and pathetic. Koreans win the MAJORITY of the tournaments they enter. Because of the nature of sc2(very volatile) of course there will be some exceptions. But they are, as I said, exceptions So we all can agree on that Abort Retry Fail was wrong, that it's not 100% nor a certainty that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. This is great. I never said I agree with him. It cannot be a certainty since we have some examples of it not happening such as IPL3, MLG global invitational(I think that's how it's called). This kind of things cannot be measured. You cannot say Koreans win 80% of the tournaments they enter in for example. Can we also agree that 99% of the foreigners CANNOT compete consistently with the koreans? We sure can but Mr Showtime never stated otherwise(in these posts). At the same time, Mr Showtime implied that koreans are not ahead of foreigners. And he did call me out. What I find truly flabbergasting is that there are tens of people here posting about "well foreigners were drunk/were spending christmas/lost their socks/etc" and he had the gall to call me out on the otherwise universally accepted assessment that koreans are better than foreigners! I'm merely responding in kind. So Mr. Showtime, if you are reading this, please substantiate all the accusation you threw my way by answering the specific questions regarding your attack towards me. That's all I want. Or admit you made a mistake, it's also ok. Or just keep quiet and be careful with what you say next time. Thanks. Show nested quote +1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate.
2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate.
3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate.
4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
I'll answer that to shut you up with your ridiculous 'challenge'. 4. No, as we've seen throughout 2011, it is not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they enter. You are wrong, period. We've seen this in Assembly, DHS2011, HSC3, IEM Guangzhou, IPL3, ESWC, MLG Orlando and MLG Invitational(off the top of my head). So sorry, you are objectively wrong on 4. which coincidentally was what Mr Showtime replied to.
I was really hoping Mr. Showtime would reply to me since it was him who called me out. But since you want to join in on the argument, I'll respond to you.
I did say that I specifically wrote #4 to see how he would respond to that. If you have been following conversation, this is the statement that made him label me as someone who "has not followed the proscene":
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on
Is this statement debatable, even wrong? Now, please take a look at this:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Now please tell me honestly based on that table that it is a pretty safe bet to make that a Korean will win any tournament they are on. In the link above, if Koreans don't win the championship, they get 2nd place. Which make me now make this bold statement, once again. Give me a tournament where there is even just one of the top Koreans - MVP, Nestea, Leenock, even MC, and have all the top foreigners in there, given the format is fair and even, I will bet all my money on that Korean, as should anyone who knows a little something about the competitive SC2 scene.
Do you still disagree?
I was really hoping to write this reply to Mr. Showtime.
|
I am not big fan of making excuses, but at the last mlg some of the koreans like puzzle looked like he stayed up for 3 days straight and could not keep his eyes open. I imagine jet lag is pretty huge factor in trying to play your best. I work at computer trying to program trust me its hard to think or react fast when your very tired.
I just think not every game can be taken at face value as one player truly being better then the other like people always do once they jump on the hype train.
|
Make a list of the top ten players in the world. Are any of them foreigner? You're an idiot unless it's Huk at 10 and your argument for putting him there is very convincing. I love Huk and he's easily my favorite player, but he's been in Korea for a long ass time and has been to the ro8 once. Now make top 20. Is there a foreigner who isn't Huk? Again, it better be Idra, Stephano, or Naniwa at 20 and your argument better be convincing or you're stupid.
Until a foreigner goes into the GSL and wins Code S, then you can't say that foreigners are even close to Koreans. If they were, then there would be more than one of them in Korea doing something other than getting knocked out of the Ro32 in both Code A (looking at you Jinro, Nani, Sase, Thorzain) and S (Looking at you Sen and Idra if he doesn't lose wednesday). The only one who has been in Code S consistently is now out of Code S and during his time there barely made a dent.
Stop making excuses, it is not close. Korea > Foreigner until someone goes into Code S and does better than Ro8. Jinro was almost a year ago now (his first ro4 run was actually more than a year ago) and no one has come close to his accomplishments since.
|
On January 10 2012 11:33 jax1492 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 10:57 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:54 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:51 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:On January 10 2012 10:15 cyclone25 wrote:
[quote]
Yes, this is exactly what top korean say in interviews, that there is no difference between them and foreigners at the very top level. Below top 10, I agree that koreans have the edge, because they take the game more serious.
There is nothing special about Koreans, just look at Warcraft 3 where European and Chinese players had no problems at all against them.
People like to compare Starcraft 2 with BroodWar, but the foreign pro scene in BroodWar was almost non-existent. The tournaments were very rare and with low prizes, so the motivation to practice a lot was low. If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill. Same thing will happen with sc2. I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate. Fair enough. Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions. agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner. will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent.
Foreigners definitely have a consistency problem. Thorzain, Huk, Stephano and Idra have all been knocked out of a lot of tournaments in 2011 by people a top player should never been losing to.
|
On January 10 2012 12:18 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 11:33 jax1492 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:57 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:54 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:51 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:17 Olinimm wrote:
[quote]
If this was true foreigners would do better in GSL. Why can top Koreans go to foreign tournaments and own them easily, but the top foreigners can't even make a dent in GSL? This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player. The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all. Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG. The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano. If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill. Same thing will happen with sc2. I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate. Fair enough. Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions. agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner. will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent. Foreigners definitely have a consistency problem. Thorzain, Huk, Stephano and Idra have all been knocked out of a lot of tournaments in 2011 by people a top player should never been losing to.
Literally every top player has had a slump. Actually Stephano and Thorzain were never really on top long enough to even have a slump.
|
On January 10 2012 12:31 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 12:18 Seraphone wrote:On January 10 2012 11:33 jax1492 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:57 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:54 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:51 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On January 10 2012 10:44 HybridZ wrote:On January 10 2012 10:41 jj33 wrote:On January 10 2012 10:32 cyclone25 wrote:
[quote]
This was explained already in this thread. GSL lasts for a month, a foreign event only a few days. To participate in GSL you basically need to live in Korea for at least a month. With at least 10 players equal in skill with you, the odds to win should be less than 10%. Financial wise, it's not worth to play in GSL for a foreigner player.
The reason foreign players don't win GSL's is because they don't play GSL. Last GSL had Huk + 31 koreans in Code S ... pretty bad odds for him to win it all.
Koreans don't "own" the foreign events. They have good results because they only sent the very best players - Mvp, MC, Leenock, Puma or DRG.
The 2nd tier koreans don't do so well vs foreigners: a good example is Top (a GSL finalist) losing 0-3 to Gatored or Lucky losing 0-4 to Stephano.
If you count the top koreans vs the top foreigners at a foreigner event, you will see that the number is pretty close. You can't say there are 8 koreans vs 200 foreigners at MLG, this isn't a fair comparison. This is such a crock. Do you really believe there is no gap? Not 1 foreigner right now capable of sniffing GSL finals. The gap is going to widen. Koreans don't own the event? haha, ok right. what must they do then? You are in serious denial. YOu better get used to this, as the game matures and the skill ceiling gets higher and with talent coming from bw and new young talent propping up, it's only going to get worse. +1+1+1 Agreed. Although I do agree with some of his logic on the statistics, hes still just dancing around the truth and whats really important to note. A lot of people will hate me for bringing BW history into an SC2 debate, but the same thing happened in SC1. We had some decent dudes play at a high level when BW first became competitive, but over time the skill gap widened greatly. T.T These days, Koreans are untouchable. But it wasn't the case when BW first came out and became competitive. I remember those days. good days. when boxer first came long he was like a Terran renaissance. (i played protoss/zerg in bw) After, a bit the Koreans just pulled way ahead in skill. Same thing will happen with sc2. I'm gonna wait until the end of 2012 before making that judgement, personally. I'd like to see at least another year of professional SC2 develop and play out and then deciding for myself whether or not they'll continue to dominate. Fair enough. Sc2 will undoubtedly get better and the skill ceiling will rise with patches and expansions. agreed, the skill ceiling will rise with heart of the swarm, but who will be pushing that ceiling up? i would have to think it will be the Koreans and most likely the gap will still be there if not widen. koreans will not win everything but id put my money on a Korean in any tournament in 2012 over any foreigner. will also add, i think the problem is that foreigners come and go, jinro was code s and now is he even code a? then it was huk and he is in code a ... foreigners have to be more consistent. Foreigners definitely have a consistency problem. Thorzain, Huk, Stephano and Idra have all been knocked out of a lot of tournaments in 2011 by people a top player should never been losing to. Literally every top player has had a slump. Actually Stephano and Thorzain were never really on top long enough to even have a slump.
Take MC though as an example. Even in MC's slump almost all his losses were vs good player and he still consistently came to foreign tournaments and did really well. Maybe he didn't win them all but he took:
3rd MLG Columbus.
1st Stars War China
3rd Homestory Cup 3
2nd NASL S1
2nd IEM Cologne
2nd MLG Orlando
3rd Blizzard Cup
Plus he made some GSL Ro8/Ro16's.
Outside of Korea I'd say only ESWC did he do badly and even then he made the Ro8 and lost in PvP.
Where as Huk on the other hand went out of multiple MLG's early, Dreamhack Winter early, both Assembly early, IEM Cologne early, NASL S2 early.
Thorzain has loads of similar really dodgy losses at the start of tournaments.
Idra has Trimaster, LiveZerg and many other losses.
Most top foreigners seem to be able to compete with top Koreans on occasions (though never consistently) but they lose way too much to middle of the road foreign pro's.
|
It's not a surprise the Koreans dominated so hard in the Homestory Cup. They sent Juggernauts such as Sound, viOlet, and ReaL!
On a less assholey note, it's pretty clear Koreans are way ahead. The top 10 Foreigners don't even hold a candle to the Top 10 Koreans, and it's arguable that most top Foreigners are Code B level. Hence why those who have gone to Korea are all currently in Code B, except Huk. [Idra and Sen don't count, they were given Code S]
|
On January 10 2012 09:35 HybridZ wrote:
Korean's are better. Just watching their streams you can see a difference in their play compared to foreigners. Their multitasking/speed is usually superior.
Question: Have you guys ever seen asian people play ping pong? Nuts...
Evolutions fact and I think it is totally reasonable to believe that over time with a better/different diet a certain group of people can become naturally more skilled or better at completing certain tasks that require a certain amount of natural ability to play at the highest level. Totally reasonable to believe this..
On January 10 2012 10:22 HybridZ wrote:
I still think that korea vs the world, top 10 world vs top 10 koreans, koreans would still win 60-75 percent of the games. Just watching their streams compared to foreigners you can see a difference in their play. Honestly, I think asians are really good at anything they set their mind 2 that doesn't require size and strength. I could explain why I believe this here but this isn't an evolution forum. in a nut shell, diet and culture.
Second point, as with anything, you need to train with the best to be the best(ex.hockey in canada). if your country takes a sport/game a lot more seriously then the rest of the world, you'd better be the best lol.
If your ancestors ate Kimchi, you will be a better SC2 player?
If you really want to go down this road, there are plenty of Koreans born and raised outside of Korea from the same evolutionary background. You should do a comparison of their SC2 accomplishments compared to their population size, and examine the ratio against Koreans in Korea. It's better to have some sort of data, rather than resort to assertions such "asians are good at ping pong" as your justification.
Even assuming you were right on some level, there's much more evidence that the skill gap has significantly more to do with environment at this point in time. Your explanation has to account for the magnitude of the success. That is, take Korea's population vs the world, and compare it to their success vs the world. Yet still, you have to explain Korean success compared to populations with similar evolutionary backgrounds (i.e. I'd assume China, Taiwan, Japan, etc), while simultaneously explaining the lack of success of their neighbors in a logically consistent fashion.
|
On January 10 2012 09:46 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 09:40 chenchen wrote:On January 10 2012 09:38 Corsica wrote:On January 10 2012 09:18 chenchen wrote:On January 10 2012 09:14 Corsica wrote:On January 09 2012 11:06 eYeball wrote:On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote:
(3) JYP: Arguably the true second place, also never lost a match against foreigners, dropped one game against Goody. Handily defeated Violet, who gave problems to Sound, and gave MC much more trouble than Sound. What? LOL Yeah we already knew this, I believe someone else said that only 12% of the participants were Koreans and yet in ro8 it was 75% of them. In all honesty the best foreigners didnt come : White-ra, Idra, Kas, HuK, Sase, Naniwa to name few. I feel like there were a lot of mediocre foreigners : Incontrol, Destiny, Delphi, Attero, Kawaii so to have this people fight vs really good koreans sure they would lose... so i feel like statistics are distorted here. EDIT: Thats to name a few top/mediocre foreigners. The best foreigners didn't come . . . are you serious? Plenty of top foreigners were present and not a single, serious GSL contender was there. NONE of the Koreans at HSC 4 are anyone's favorite to win GSL and a lot of them aren't even in Code S. Koreans are better its not arguable. But i think foreigners can keep up with koreans in sc2. If for you best foreigners are players like : Darkforce, Incontrol, Darkhydra, PoYo, Destiny then sorry. They are like C class foreigners. We've seen that foreigners can upset even big names. I feel if players that I named were there we would have foreigner at least in top 3. What about Stephano, Thorzain, and Ret? Seriously, stop contorting the evidence. Stephano was drunk, Thorzain and Ret got eliminated by foreigners, so the koreans shouldn't get any merits. Anyway, I don't see where this thread is going, we can argue forever ...
and stephano being drunk was total justification? definitely not his fault oh no sir.
|
I do wish Stephano performed better. He has such talent. Would be super cool if he tried out for the GSL or something
|
I think the level of BW in korea matters a lot. There is nearly no top foreigner that hasnt played BW or WC3 on an higher level. They have years of RTS practice. But noone of them was near the level of korean BW-players. However, the gap is much smaller now in SC2 then in BW.
|
Guys, just shut up and go watch Leenock vs ForGG. You will have to wait some 3 years before 2 foreigners could imitate that game
|
People say the only difference between foreigners and Korean is training regiment, but I've been thinking about it.
Let's compare NBA in the United States to SC2 in South Korea. Growing up in the respective countries, each nation's youth watches and idolizes the sport and its players. Being an NBA superstar comes with the glamour, women, and money and while, of course, Starcraft pros are far from that, they are still considered celebrities in their country. The aforementioned means that Basketball in the US and Starcraft in South Korea will draw in the most talented players from their countries talent pool.
For basketball important traits are: height, agility, coordination, stamina, etc.
For Starcraft: intelligence, reaction speed, analytic abilities, and etc.
So in the US the nations fastest, tallest, quickest citizens will be playing basketball their entire lives, hoping to become pro.
Does Korea's smartest most analytic citizens play Starcraft? Maybe not the elite level of the talent pool like the NBA, but certainly more so than SC in the US. Polt is in Korea's equivilency to Harvard. Marinekingprime's father said he wanted his son to become a lawyer or doctor. How many potential lawyers or doctors have chosen the life of a pro gamer in Korea instead?
What about the US? Gaming is frowned upon in our society. Those with the traits that would enable them to excel at SC are in College becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. The vast majority of them have never even heard the word starcraft. In America, becoming a progamer is more about opportunity than ability. Loners and nerds in high school, people not yet in the workforce with a lot of free time, and yes there are college students-- but it isn't the same as the Korean SC players.
The average IQ in South Korea is 106, while it's 98 in the states. It might not seem like a lot, but the difference between South Korea and the US is the same as the US and Columbia.
Now, are we willing to admit the IQ of the average Korean pro sc2 player is higher than that of the average foreign pro sc2 player? As illustrated before, Starcraft in Korea taps more into their nation's talent pool than Starcraft outside of it. The average IQ of a Korean progamer is what? Probably 120? and maybe 105 for foreigners. Future Engineers will naturally do better than future construction workers, department store workers, and factory workers because Starcraft appeals more to their skillset than the latter.
What do you guys think?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
