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On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL?
If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
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One thing I'd like to point out is that Goody took 2 games off of Korean Protosses. With pure bio play. If that isn't crazy I don't know what is.
Foreigners might not have won many series, but they put up a good showing compared to Koreans. I think MC vs Cloud is a good example of that. Cloud made a lot of dumb decisions, but so did MC, and as a result the series was 2-1. There was no obscene 21-0 record like Leenock at MLG (or whatever the actual number was)
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On January 10 2012 01:52 RoboBob wrote:
One thing I'd like to point out is that Goody took 2 games off of Korean Protosses. With pure bio play. If that isn't crazy I don't know what is.
Well he got lucky bunkers up on one map and on the other one the protoss fucked up as well, doing some shitty blink allin into dt, while goody was supply blocked for literally 2mins. So although those are some fun trivia, he really didn't show any good play.
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On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
Because there is a skill gap.
The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans.
In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B".
Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
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On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on.
^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
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On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
That's not even true. The best foreigners can compete with the best Koreans right now. That said, the best Korean players are going to win a large majority of games played, but they are out of the foreigners league yet. Top level SC2 has yet to be seen.
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On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
except top 32 Westerners cant even compete with top 200 KR GM ladder
and those who can CANT get trough code A qualifiers
just some food for thought
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On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
read the post i quoted, he said basically top foreigners could win WHENEVER THEY WANT.
Of course i know its complete crap.
If anything he actually said there a skill gap, but in favor for foreigners which sounds even more hilarious.
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On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right?
They're not winning GSL's because they rarely try for it. Compare the number of koreans with the number of foreigners that tried to qualify for Code A since 2010: it's probably 1% foreign players and 99% koreans.
If Europe had it's own GSL, it will be very hard for koreans to win it. They will need to move in Europe for at least a month and go through a lot of top players.
When 95% of the GSL players are koreans, it's pretty obvious the foreign players have no chance.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all.
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On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc....
LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break
I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches.
Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all
Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo.
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On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions.
Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly:
I CHALLENGE YOU!
Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment.
1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate.
2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate.
3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate.
4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate.
See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 4, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of.
Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
EDIT: Changed "with question number 3" with "with question number 4". I really meant for, just got lost in the fast edit and post. Thanks The KY. To respond to you The KY, I think someone also said it earlier and I also responded to him. Hyperbole. I was not attempting to construct a logically tautological statement, I was merely emphasizing the fact that the skill gap is big!
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On January 10 2012 02:22 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. ^ This is someone who has not followed the professional Starcraft scene at all, but still wishes to share ignorant, ill-informed opinions. Since you singled me out (especially amidst the "Christmas excuse" posters, which I find to be the singlemost retarded posts in this thread), I take offense, assume a fighting position, and shout, calmly: I CHALLENGE YOU!Please, tell me exactly categorically, thoroughly what was wrong or erroneous in my little hyperbole yet factually true comment. 1. Are Koreans just equal to foreigners? Yes/No? Elaborate. 2. Are foreigners better than Koreans? Yes/No? Elaborate. 3. Is the Korean/foreigner skill gap closer now than it was 6-12 months ago? Yes/No? Elaborate. 4. Is it, or is it not a certainty that Koreans will win a tournament they are on? Certain/Not Certain? Elaborate. See, I even gave you the chance to win with question number 3, as there are a lot of tournaments you can cite where foreigners won. But I'd like to see you explain and see the stuff you're made of. Answer please... or you're a dodger, make haste and be gone!
I think it was mostly #4 that he had an issue with, you appear to say both that foreigners have won tournaments and yet it is 100% certain that Koreans will win any tournament they enter. Which, even if they had won every tournament ever, wouldn't be true.
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On January 10 2012 02:19 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc.... LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches. Show nested quote +Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo.
Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea.
Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG.
GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc.
Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
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I feel like Koreans are much more stable than foreigners. They don't suddenly start to make a lot of mistakes in tournaments. This tournament was clearly dominated by Koreans, but I don't think it looks as bad for the foreigners as it seems after the tournament.
There were a lot of close games/series which mostly went in favor of the Koreans with only some exceptions (Delphi vs MKP). I also think the foreigners should do more aggressive/all-in stuff, because it's much more likely that the one who defends makes more mistakes than the one who attacks, just because it's not part of his strategy. They should definitely take more risks in tournaments. Sometimes it looks bad (Violet losing to 4 hellions, MKP losing to two all-ins with a super greedy build against Delphi, Real loosing against Goody with a Blinkstalker All-In), but most of the time I felt that the one who took bigger risks won the game. You can't play safe against everything.
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On January 10 2012 02:28 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:19 AsnSensation wrote:On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc.... LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches. Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo. Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea. Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG. GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc. Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
First, you say that Naniwa and SaSe didn't prepare too much for code A so that's why they did poorly and then you say that Naniwa rolled both MVP and Nestea in MLG. I could argue that both MVP and Nestea didn't prepare for MLG at all. What now?
I am not saying that they didn't prepare. I'm just pointing out that your argument is not a good one.
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On January 10 2012 02:17 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? They're not winning GSL's because they rarely try for it. Compare the number of koreans with the number of foreigners that tried to qualify for Code A since 2010: it's probably 1% foreign players and 99% koreans. If Europe had it's own GSL, it will be very hard for koreans to win it. They will need to move in Europe for at least a month and go through a lot of top players. When 95% of the GSL players are koreans, it's pretty obvious the foreign players have no chance. Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all.
But they got MLG seeds, so many of them did not bother trying for Code A. And you're basing something off of a hypothetical with no support for yourself. It's not that hard to imagine a few Koreans deciding to stay in Europe and winning that European GSL. Hell, someone made a point earlier that when it's 5% Koreans, they have a good chance of winning it all yet foreigners doing the same means they have no chance.
And one last thing, there's a problem with being the very best, which is your just easily snipe-able since your playstyle is more scrutinized. But throw someone like Slayers Golden out and you don't know that much about him and he's gonna go kill top foreigners left and right. I personally think someone unknown like Sound would actually do better than Nestea/MVP against top foreigners actually for that reason.
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The only thing I really have that much disagreement with in the OP is the bit about "unreasonable foreign bias". Yeah a lot of people are biased towards players but thats a perfectly reasonable position to hold, its called being a fan. People will always support the guys they like and will often exagerate because of this but so many people around dont seem to comprehend this and are way to eager to overanalyse and argue and bicker.
Its apparant to everyone that in general there are a larger number of good korean players, but its also apparant that they arnt completely untouchable. So if a few people have a good feeling about a game and think an upsets going to happen, dont shit all over them and tell them theyr idiots. They arnt, theyr just fans.
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On January 10 2012 02:28 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:19 AsnSensation wrote:On January 10 2012 02:00 RoboBob wrote:On January 10 2012 01:52 Assirra wrote:On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote:
DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Then why aren't they mass winning GSL? If they could do it whenever they want it should be an easy task right? Because there is a skill gap. The top 32 foreigners cannot consistently compete with the top 32 Koreans. But they can compete consistently with the top 64 Koreans. In other words, "Western code S" equals "Korean Code A". And "Western Code A" equals "Korean Code B". Most of the guys at Homestory were Code A Westerners. There was no Huk, Idra, WhiteRa, Demuslim, Kas, Strelok, Sen, Select, etc.... LOL how wrong you are, seriously give me a break I like every player you have on your list there, judging from your hypothesis, should be code s westerner then? Do you seriously believe they could compete even in code A ? Sorry but even naniwa is 0-10 in GSL individual matches. Foreigners proved a lot of times that they can beat the very best koreans, and all top koreans say the skill gap isn't big at all Source? it's more of a manner thing to me imo. Naniwa didn't prepared too much for Code A and he said it in interviews. I think it was both him and SaSe who played 1-2 days after they just arrived in Korea. Naniwa rolled both Mvp and NesTea, "the best koreans", in MLG. GSL is really overrated, some average players often get into finals ... InCa, Top, FruitDealer, Rain, etc.
There's just so much wrong in this short passage.
Naniwa did not "roll" either MVP or Nestea. He won a Bo3 against both of them 2-1, then beat Nestea again 2-1. If your little excuse about not preparing applies to Code A, why does it not apply to either MVP or Nestea at MLG? naniwa, MVP and Nestea were all jetlagged, with it being Nestea's first time outside of Korea (IIRC), and MVP's third (after Blizzcon/MLG). Naniwa is used to the transition in timezones, whereas neither Nestea nor MVP are.
Nestea is not "the best Korean" any more, although MVP definitely is.
None of those players have been in a finals for more than half a year. Half a year is a big deal in SC2 terms. Half a year ago, GSL was not comparable to nowadays.
On their best days, the best foreigners can compete with some of the top Koreans when they are playing poorly, normally in their worst matchup (MVP in PvT, MC in PvP when it was coinflippy as hell). It requires phenomenal luck for even the top foreigners to do well against top Koreans.
Korea is still well ahead of the rest of the world, with the only "Korean Killers" having brief moments of success that people cling to because they want to believe that foreigners = Koreans. They don't. There is no foreigner who has been able to consistently beat top Koreans for a long time, with the only supposed "consistent" player being Huk, a consistency which is a complete illusion (going from winning MLG Orlando to losing to Darkforce in EU tourneys a couple of weeks later).
Huk, considered the best foreigner by a lot of Koreans (interviews etc) is pretty good, but not even in the Top 10 players of the world. People have become so used to Koreans winning that they consider minor success like Huk's equivalent to consistent foreign success on par with Koreans. That has never been the case, and with the possible BW A-teamers switching over, quite probably never will be.
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On January 10 2012 02:28 cyclone25 wrote:
Check the recent interviews from HSC4, MC and MKP said that the skill gap is very small.
Do you actually expect MKP and MC to reply to an interview in a country outside Korea on a topic about the difference between Koreans and foreigners that "lolwut, Koreans PWN foreigners! We have way more skills than them."?
One thing that is a sure indicator of this skill gap other than tournament performance - did you notice how the casters got may things wrong about what koreans, specifically MKP and MC were doing. For instance, there Game 4 in the Grand Finals where MC pushed with, as far as I remember, a zealot and a stalker to set up 4 gate, and Incontrol was like "lol Sound is gonna rape this army. And 10 seconds later Sound ggs. Jaws dropped, MrBitter didn't even have a chance to say anything. The players didn't know exactly what happened. And this is not one time, and Incontrol was specifically guilty of this calling the game many many times far different than what the plan or outcome would be. Another is MKP, I don't remember exactly which one now, but I think I was a game vs violet what Violet has the entire midgame swarm and MKP had 5ish marines, 2 marauders, and a hellion (or something like this). He held, but with great damage, as he lost 5-10 scvs in the process. Everyone, even Grubby (really smart player) thought it was going to be over, but guess what, MKP won, defending the roach zergling baneling push everytime with impeccable army control until his econ kicked in. There are a whole lot other games.
And while we are at it, why not talk about the skill itself. Can you imagine Naniwa, or even Huk, do the sick sick forcefield + split army that MC did in one of the games? Or any foreigner terran controlling a 5 unit army and make it do damage as if it were a 20 unit army like MKP?
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What I find ridiculously illogical is how blindly biased some people are. When people say a korean pro lost because of jetlag or because it's an online tournament with terrible lag--they get shot down by foreigner-fanboys. But the fact of the matter is, MC came back to 4-0 Idra after a night of rest, and the korean pros have dominated streaks of LAN tourneys where the lag disadvantage is gone. These "excuses" have supporting evidence for not being a load of bull.
On the other hand, foreigners have had varying conditions as well but time and time again their failure to win regardless of these conditions has done little to support the claims of jetlag, an unfamiliar environment, and whatnot. Saying that a 3-0 score is a lot closer than it looks is also getting to be a tiresome claim. If it was really that close, then the 3-0 result wouldn't always be in favor of the korean pro. I can't even think of a time off the top of my head where a korean lost to a foreigner 0-2 or 0-3 and viewers said, "well the games were a lot closer than the score!"
I like a few foreign pros and I'm happy to cheer them on--but seeing some people delude themselves about their favorite player or scene makes me feel like a fool for supporting the same.
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EPT
