Come on guys! These foreigners are PROFESSIONAL players who get paid to play! If you can't even concentrate, remain sober, have time for practice, long trip, different atmosphere, happy with with performance by finishing last in the tournament, dog ate homework, whatever retarded excuse, don't play. Simple as that. Improve and keep up, or shut your mouth. The power is yours!
Hereunder, a collection of the most in-denial, most lolworthy posts, so far.
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote: You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better. Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
On January 09 2012 21:57 shizna wrote: the OP is a bit fail imo... the out of context results don't really speak for anything.
ret, stephano, thorzain and a few other foreigners clearly underperformed... so you can't really count their results.
MC is far better than anyone else that attended the tournament, so counting his results is like counting a grandmaster versus a bronze leaguer.
real and violet have been training outside korea for months, strictly they should be counted as foreigners.
On January 09 2012 21:51 TigerKarl wrote: I think that 2 things cause this dramatic domination of koreans: 1. Luck. As simple as that. Having watched a lot of games i felt like there were tons of games that came down to little things, which are not in the hands of any player. SC2 is based a lot around that and this tournament it turned out, that the koreans were more lucky (maybe forced luck?). Of course this doesn't mean that in other circumstances it would be 50:50 between foreigners and koreans. 2, Probably the bigger issue was that the atmosphere of the tournament caused many foreigners to take it less seriously as they were in for fun and social interaction. I think it comes with korean progamer culture that they want to win every game and are more willing to neglect things like partying, fooling around and such, compared to the european and american progamers.
edit: feel free to ignore my post and focus on braindamaging discussions about christmas.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
not part anymore of the collection
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: -Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record -Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head -Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
LOL Thanks for this. You should make this as a guide/flowchart! The reasons foreigners lose to koreans is everything other than that the koreans are waaaaaaaay better than them!
The best foreigners in terms of recent results against Koreans didn't show up with the exception of Stephano. Huk, Naniwa, and Idra weren't there, while the at same time we had some top level Koreans show up.
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: -Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record -Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head -Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
LOL Thanks for this. You should make this as a guide/flowchart! The reasons foreigners lose to koreans is everything other than that the koreans are waaaaaaaay better than them!
Well thats true obviously. But when foreigner wins tournament there are very similiar excuses flying around. Just dont make any excuses and accapet results for what they are.
Nice. this thread went from stating facts to the usual foreigner vs korean debate to religious holidays in korea. what a shocker. TL mods shut down this thread? -_-
On January 09 2012 11:22 Kahmoon wrote: I think a lot of you are misunderstanding the OP. A lot of the hype beforehand, and a lot of people's predictions, said that foreigners were going to take down the Koreans. That didn't really happen. Sure, there are a lot of people claiming that "Obviously the Koreans would win" after the fact, but there were significantly fewer saying that beforehand. (Like pretty much always...) You could say that this thread is about the hope based predictions of the (foreign)-community, and the sometimes quite unreasonable foreigner bias that is the probable reason for that.
Well duh, this is nothing new in any sport community. People make predictions based on their hopes and not by "realism," and most are fully aware of that their prediction are not the most likely outcome. The error lies in people like the op that for some weird reason take offense to this.
On January 10 2012 00:14 BronzeKnee wrote: The best foreigners in terms of recent results against Koreans didn't show up with the exception of Stephano. Huk, Naniwa, and Idra weren't there, while the at same time we had some top level Koreans show up.
Please, Sound is Code B and ripped Stephano a new one. How is your excuse even close to valid. Just because a top korean shows up to a tournament, top europeans lose to mediocre koreans?
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one.
Situation - excuse
American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure
I've like...never seen any of these used. Except maybe the top two, and only when it's actually true. We all know Koreans are better. No one has ever contested that. I don't know, maybe some kid did once in an LR thread. Who cares.
It's actually Korean fanboys who were always making the excuses on the occasions that Koreans do not dominate. Like the much maligned lag explanations from TSL3, or the jetlag ones when Idra beat MC, the 'Nestea and MVP weren't here so it doesn't count' ones from every tournament a foreigner did well in, ever.
Frankly I thought we'd moved past the point of childishly taunting eachother about this bollocks. We've had enough international tournaments to get used to the idea that most of the time koreans will do really well but that foreigners have a select few people who will occasionally completely smash it and end the eastern domination. Can we stop trying to annoy eachother now?
All of them besides the Code A/B player excuse were used in this thread and almost every other LR thread that involves Korean vs foreigner games. This compilation is actually spot on...
My point was really; who fucking cares what some idiots say in the LR threads. I could just as easily go back to threads about a tournament that koreans didn't dominate and compile a list of korea-fanboy excuses but it's pointless because focusing on those people starts a ridiculous childish pissing contest. We all know koreans are better, we should let foreigner fans enjoy it when foreigners win and ignore the ones making up weird explanations when they don't.
Regardless of the statistics a lot of the play was rather appaling from most of the foreigners. A lot of favorites to do good such as thorzain, ret, stephano etc just had a rare game which looked okey. The rest were just really off.
I think that people are often surprised by the lack of success from foreigners because it's harder for koreans outside of korea. What I mean is that NaNiwa for example has far better results against koreans in TLPD inter than in korea, and for any foreigner you have a better chance of winning against koreans outside of korea. Therefore koreans don't dominate foreigners as hard in europe/usa tourneys as they would in GSL, because of travel/jetlag/no preparation/they are only few or whatever. But at HSC the foreigners did very well, especially Nerchio since he is not training in korea. When more foreigners will be in korea (the ones who really want to succeed, badly, the likes of NaNiwa and Huk) these will be able to compete, the others might take series but it's very unlikely, and it will be harder for those who won a tourney with eu training (Stephano) to win another one, because when you are not an unknown anymore you have to train in korea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
On January 09 2012 19:53 Groog wrote: Simple explanation: Foreigners were celebrating christmas the past weeks, Koreans weren't. Can't read in to these results (ffs Stephano was playing hungover on day 3)
this is probably the dumbest thing ive ever read
Why is it dumb? It's no explanation but it could be a factor, for sure.
Koreans don't celebrate Christmas, they don't have social life, what's next? They don't poop too?
How far can self-denial go? This thread answers that question: further than I could possibly imagine.
Koreans are mainly not christian? They don't hold it as their main holiday, so that it doesn't have as big of meaning to them, which in order doesn't make them celebrate it as much. How dumb must one be to ignore his own self denial and critisize others for theirs. And, how ignorant one must be to think that everyone is christian anyway.
stop being ignorant.
Yes, because assuming that a mainly non-christian country does not celebrate Christmas is ignorant... Also, your video proves nothing, it only shows that some people do celebrate Christmas in korea (There are Christians everywhere). Does not mean that the players themselves celebrate Christmas.
And to those yelling self-denial... Did you watch the tail end of the sc2 scene in 2011? Was ANY tournament as dominated by koreans as this was? In what tournament did 50% of the Koreans finish above any foreigner?
So, it's not self-denial, it's just me examining the facts. Stop being an elitist asshole just because you're korean, you're countriemens accomplishments are not your own.
User was warned for this post
newsflash, u dont have to be christian to celebrate christmas *gasp
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row.
This made me lol the most today, why is it so hard for people to just acknowledge that koreans are so much better than foreigners and just the creme de la creme ( aka Huk Idra Naniwa) can compete with the average code a/s pros.
Also the argument about koreans, not having a social life and they're not enjoying themselfes, rofl MC stomped nerds left and right while playing poker and stuff. You might remember that MKP and MC goofed around during the cast and had a great time and I don't think there's anything wrong with no drinking while you're still in the tournament. I'd rather win 7500€ and drink next weekend rather than flying all the way to germany to get wasted instead of doing your job as an sc2 professional gamer.
This tournament just proved what we already knew, that the Koreans are ahead. Don't make such a big deal of the final standings though, as we've seen before, the performance of players at HSC varies a great deal depending on how people approach the competition. HSC II was a hilarious example of this.
Sooo Koreans are far ahead of foreigners. Newsflash!
Edit: To elaborate: Since sc2 is quite a volatile game (at least right now) Koreans will lose games to some foreigners. If we reach a point when most of the time, the better player wins, 99% of the foreigners stand no chance.
On January 10 2012 01:03 Keyz1 wrote: DIMAGA can beat any korean, including Nestea.
The reasons he had two losses against JYP in the semifinals was:
1 - He got cannon rushed on Metalopolis (a really good map for zerg). So he had to nydus all in or be way behind since JYP didn't want to play a standard macro game.
2 - He got Mothership Vortexed on Antiga (a map thats impossible for zerg to take 4th/5th/6th bases safely), nor can you pull off a good defense like he did on Dual Sight, there you have no choice but to attack and gamble your way to a loss if you don't constantly spread Broods.
Many players like HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Thorzain, NaNiwa, Kas, SaSe, Ret etc. can take a game off a korean whenever they want. The skill gap isn't as huge as you think.
Man this is some real drivel. First some excuses for Dimaga then saying that top foreigners can take games of koreans whenever they want? So they don't want to all the time, that's the problem with foreigners? They just don't want to win games against koreans...
On January 09 2012 23:20 Jermstuddog wrote: @Sawry
Mr. Bitter tried to get away from the balance discussion as quickly as possible.
His "bullshit" statement was his poor Zerg heart breaking.
Perhaps he should have been a bit more professional and never let it slip in the first place, but this is HSC after all.
bitter, professional?
Haha, nice one
Anyways, the funniest thing about HSC and pretty much every other western tournament is that despite the solid results of the Koreans there are still people who genuinely believe and argue that Western players are as skilled as the Koreans. That Christmas argument ( or excuse rather) that someone bought up is absolutely hilarious for example.
At this point its sad for the western 'scene' when six out of seven participating Koreans take the first spots in a tournament.
EPT
