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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
Thing is though: 1. Myeong-Dong is always packed, doesn't have to be a holiday. 2. In Korea, Christmas Eve is like a dating day. You hang out with your GF/Friends. It's not a family centred tradition like it is in the west where you stay with your family, maybe for a whole week. That said, reasoning that foreigners underperformed because of the holidays is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:11 Tobberoth wrote: Thing is though: 1. Myeong-Dong is always packed, doesn't have to be a holiday. 2. In Korea, Christmas Eve is like a dating day. You hang out with your GF/Friends. It's not a family centred tradition like it is in the west where you stay with your family, maybe for a whole week. That said, reasoning that foreigners underperformed because of the holidays is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. 1. Yeah but Christmas Myeong-Dong is like 500% normal for the entire day 2. This is p true, New Years is the family holiday. | ||
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Sawry
United States32 Posts
I really don't like the term "foreigner hope". This crown of thrones, that's bequeathed to the most recent foreigner with impressive wins versus Korean opponent, sets up an unrealistic expectation that can't possibly be lived up to. Because of this label, whenever their predecessors are in a slump or don't live up to this expectation, they are considered disappointments to entire segments of the foreign community who buy into this narrative. For a "foreigner hope" to really live up to this label, after receiving this label, they'd have to probably win at least another two tournaments within a year which had a reasonably good crop of Korean Code S/A players. What player can really do that? MVP, Nestea, MMA? That player would have to be a top 5 player in the world. Besides that, "the foreign community" isn't really just one community. As someone from the US, I hardly know the European scene. I know some of the bigger names, but there's probably not a single player that I've seen 10 games from. If a bunch of great German or Swedish players dominate a tournament, do I feel alot better? No, not unless it was someone like TLO, who as an individual player, I like watching him play as he plays zerg as I do, and as a person, he seems to be a decent fellow. At best the foreigner vs Korean is the forseeable endless spiral of "foreigners are closing the gap" vs "Koreans are dominant". At worst it's stems into racism, an unfortunately natural offshoot from having a collectivist mindset. This is just my opinion, but I'd suggest other fans to not fall into the foreigner-vs-Korean abyss. Find some other reason to root for players, you'll find yourself rooted on more firm ground as a fan. * Don't read, if you don't like seeing caster criticism. + Show Spoiler + When I watch HSC4, and I'm watching an amazing series of Dimaga vs JYP, and I get to listen to Grubby drop knowledge bombs left and right, do I enjoy it when Mr.Bitter is basically there to verbally praise Dimaga's every move, and then listen to his "I'm sorry but is just bullshit" type of statements when JYP wins a tense battle with an epic engagement*? No, I'm not even listening to a commentator, I'm listening to a cheerleader who's mic'd up, while Grubby is basically analzying a series better than any caster out there. I realize casters' love to portray haters using their best douchebag voice "Oh, Mr. Bitter, he's so biased". I understand bias, commentators are human, we all have players we root for. I've never had problems with any casters before (Artosis casting idra), and I don't follow Mr.Bitter. However, listening to someone just openly root for someone, to the point it's like verbally fellating them, then QQ imbalance or whine when things don't go that player's way, it's just hard to listen to. I don't care when casters have players they want to see win, I don't want to listen to a cheerleader. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
And when you do watch the games, it becomes really easy to see how much more refined their play is, and how much better their mechanics are. Sound, a Code B Korean, basically got to the finals on the strength of clever 1 base all-ins and good macro. In the GSL, this probably wouldn't have been enough, but against foreigners it scored him a ton of easy wins. And indeed, MC absolutely stomped him in the finals. Really, just don't expect anything from foreigner not training in Korea. Occasionally there will be a breakout victory (Stephano at IPL3), but you simply cannot be consistent without proper practice. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Mr. Bitter tried to get away from the balance discussion as quickly as possible. His "bullshit" statement was his poor Zerg heart breaking. Perhaps he should have been a bit more professional and never let it slip in the first place, but this is HSC after all. | ||
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Firetoss
Germany30 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row. Well that's gotta suck for Naama and Stephano then cause they're supposed to be PROFESSIONAL SC2 players. If they can't even focus on that, well then... welp Also On January 09 2012 23:15 Sawry wrote: I have a pet peeve. I really don't like the term "foreigner hope". This crown of thrones, that's bequeathed to the most recent foreigner with impressive wins versus Korean opponent, sets up an unrealistic expectation that can't possibly be lived up to. Because of this label, whenever their predecessors are in a slump or don't live up to this expectation, they are considered disappointments to entire segments of the foreign community who buy into this narrative. For a "foreigner hope" to really live up to this label, after receiving this label, they'd have to probably win at least another two tournaments within a year which had a reasonably good crop of Korean Code S/A players. What player can really do that? MVP, Nestea, MMA? That player would have to be a top 5 player in the world. Besides that, "the foreign community" isn't really just one community. As someone from the US, I hardly know the European scene. I know some of the bigger names, but there's probably not a single player that I've seen 10 games from. If a bunch of great German or Swedish players dominate a tournament, do I feel alot better? No, not unless it was someone like TLO, who as an individual player, I like watching him play as he plays zerg as I do, and as a person, he seems to be a decent fellow. At best the foreigner vs Korean is the forseeable endless spiral of "foreigners are closing the gap" vs "Koreans are dominant". At worst it's stems into racism, an unfortunately natural offshoot from having a collectivist mindset. This is just my opinion, but I'd suggest other fans to not fall into the foreigner-vs-Korean abyss. Find some other reason to root for players, you'll find yourself rooted on more firm ground as a fan. * Don't read, if you don't like seeing caster criticism. + Show Spoiler + When I watch HSC4, and I'm watching an amazing series of Dimaga vs JYP, and I get to listen to Grubby drop knowledge bombs left and right, do I enjoy it when Mr.Bitter is basically there to verbally praise Dimaga's every move, and then listen to his "I'm sorry but is just bullshit" type of statements when JYP wins a tense battle with an epic engagement*? No, I'm not even listening to a commentator, I'm listening to a cheerleader who's mic'd up, while Grubby is basically analzying a series better than any caster out there. I realize casters' love to portray haters using their best douchebag voice "Oh, Mr. Bitter, he's so biased". I understand bias, commentators are human, we all have players we root for. I've never had problems with any casters before (Artosis casting idra), and I don't follow Mr.Bitter. However, listening to someone just openly root for someone, to the point it's like verbally fellating them, then QQ imbalance or whine when things don't go that player's way, it's just hard to listen to. I don't care when casters have players they want to see win, I don't want to listen to a cheerleader. Great post. | ||
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mememolly
4765 Posts
On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote: finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better. I'd put Nani above Huk tbh, Huk hasn't won or done anything in a while | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:25 mememolly wrote: I'd put Nani above Huk tbh, Huk hasn't won or done anything in a while What has Naniwa done? Probe rushed? Went 1-12? or something like that in Korea? | ||
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mememolly
4765 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:27 Chaggi wrote: What has Naniwa done? Probe rushed? Went 1-12? or something like that in Korea? 2nd at the toughest MLG of the year, beating top koreans on the way, more than what Huk has done in a while | ||
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Eviscerador
Spain286 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row. Ok, but then don't call those guys interested in partying and getting drunk "professional gamers" call them "guys which are good at Sc2 and can get some profit for it" Koreans are good because they think SC2 is a job, not a hobby with profit. Working mentality, practise and talent are needed to succeed. Unfortunately, most of the foreigners in the house lack some of those pillars. Time always get the wheat out of the chaff. I mean, if I arrive drunk/on hungover at my work and my company loss money due to my poor performance, I will surely get fired. But it seems in foreigner progaming, it is not only allowed but cheered. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:28 mememolly wrote: 2nd at the toughest MLG of the year, beating top koreans on the way, more than what Huk has done in a while Still hasn't won anything. I still can't imagine putting him ahead of HuK after watching him get manhandled in Korea. | ||
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Sawry
United States32 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:20 Firetoss wrote: Obviously Koreans dominated this tournament because their single focus in life is SC2. Just look at them. They know and can nothing besides playing. Now look at the European boys like Naama and Stephano who are also interested in partying and drunk all weekend. These guys only were able to activate about 30 % of their true gaming skill. Nerchio remained sober and was close to beating three of these Korean robots in a row. I believe you may have been duped. Some robots operate on alcohol (e.g. Bender from Futurama), so it is possible that these Europeans who were chugging alcohol are actually robots refueling. It would explain why the foreigners haven't quite caught up to their Korean human counterparts, as we all know that robots will not surpass humans until the year 2050. That is why they are only operating at 30%, not due to drinking alcohol, but because the technology to process and convert alcohol into energy for their circuitry is not quite there yet. Granted, robots are pretty advanced, as they have beaten inferior humans like myself at both chess and starcraft. SC2 is most likely an training regimen for the eventual robot takeover against mankind. Until they know they can beat the Koreans, they will discretely assimilate themselves as fun loving gamers. Spread the word, and most importantly make sure to ... 0101110000101 ..... error. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On January 09 2012 11:03 mtn wrote: Sure, but he lost. Would've, Could've is pointless... No it's not, because we're discussing the skill of the players, in which case there is a considerable difference between a 4-0 where one player floundered, and a 4-0 where the loser nearly won a couple of the games. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
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nokz88
Brazil1253 Posts
Situation - excuse American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: -Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record -Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head -Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:31 Chaggi wrote: Still hasn't won anything. I still can't imagine putting him ahead of HuK after watching him get manhandled in Korea. Second at the most stacked tournament MLG of the year is not nothing. He lost a lot of Code A matches months ago, then he came and beat Nestea twice, beat MVP, Huk and DRG. And then if you actually watch the games from the Blizzard Cup every single game he lost was ridiculously close. He didn't get manhandled by anyone's standards, he actually came within a hair's width of beating Leenock, MMA and Polt. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:46 nokz88 wrote: I'll try to make a list of excuses for those of you in denial so next time koreans dominate (probably next foreign tournament with koreans in it) you won't need to think about one. Situation - excuse American Tournaments - Top EU players weren't there European Tournaments - Top Americans weren't there Korean Tournaments - Jet lag/Unfamiliar environment Any tournament with any less than 100% of foreign talent - X and Y weren't there so it doesn't count Tournament with seeded Korean invites - Seeding is unfair Korean advances over a foreigner with a tie-break criteria: Head to head - Head to head is messed up. Should have been map record Map record - Map record is messed up. Should have been head to head Both - Tie-breakers are messed up. Should play a BoX to decide Tournament features Bo1 - Bo1 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo3 Tournament features Bo3 - Bo3 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo5 Tournament features Bo5 - Bo5 fails to determine the better player. Should have been Bo7 Tournament features Bo7 or more - ...he was tired/mentally broken Close to any holiday - Foreigners are celebrating/hung over/out of practice Far from any holiday - Koreans have no social life/girlfriend/work/studies Code S players invited - These are S class Koreans! What did you expect? Code A players invited - These are the best up-and-coming Koreans! What did you expect? Code B players invited - These are the hidden gems of the Korean scene! What did you expect? Anything other than MLG or DH - Wasn't trying their best. Just messing around. Anytime, ever - The format is unfair/Luck was on Korean side/Lack of infrastructure I've like...never seen any of these used. Except maybe the top two, and only when it's actually true. We all know Koreans are better. No one has ever contested that. I don't know, maybe some kid did once in an LR thread. Who cares. It's actually Korean fanboys who were always making the excuses on the occasions that Koreans do not dominate. Like the much maligned lag explanations from TSL3, or the jetlag ones when Idra beat MC, the 'Nestea and MVP weren't here so it doesn't count' ones from every tournament a foreigner did well in, ever. Frankly I thought we'd moved past the point of childishly taunting eachother about this bollocks. We've had enough international tournaments to get used to the idea that most of the time koreans will do really well but that foreigners have a select few people who will occasionally completely smash it and end the eastern domination. Can we stop trying to annoy eachother now? | ||
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Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
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MetalSlug
Germany443 Posts
On January 09 2012 23:55 The KY wrote: I've like...never seen any of these used. Except maybe the top two, and only when it's actually true. We all know Koreans are better. No one has ever contested that. I don't know, maybe some kid did once in an LR thread. Who cares. It's actually Korean fanboys who were always making the excuses on the occasions that Koreans do not dominate. Like the much maligned lag explanations from TSL3, or the jetlag ones when Idra beat MC, the 'Nestea and MVP weren't here so it doesn't count' ones from every tournament a foreigner did well in, ever. Frankly I thought we'd moved past the point of childishly taunting eachother about this bollocks. We've had enough international tournaments to get used to the idea that most of the time koreans will do really well but that foreigners have a select few people who will occasionally completely smash it and end the eastern domination. Can we stop trying to annoy eachother now? All of them besides the Code A/B player excuse were used in this thread and almost every other LR thread that involves Korean vs foreigner games. This compilation is actually spot on... | ||
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