EPTOn November 17 2011 11:06 ShiaoPi wrote:
Birthdate: 1994, do the math....
Seriously he is not a "kid"...more a young adult
Birthdate: 1994, do the math....
Seriously he is not a "kid"...more a young adult
17 is a kid in my mind and I'm only 22.
CocA Incident Handled Correctly? - Page 5
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Lunares
United States909 Posts
17 is a kid in my mind and I'm only 22. | ||
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midgettoes
Australia180 Posts
On November 17 2011 11:04 ohampatu wrote: No. You have to reduce situations down to this. Its that simple and dry. Its either 'ok' to leave game, or its not. You can't say 'oh well because of so and so its ok, but because of this its not'. The rules need to apply across the board. You keep bringing that up, but ignoring when the 2 players tried to 'lose on purpose' so as not to play sen. In the other thread it was almost mentioned early on Demu giving a game to Idra on purpose. There is no 'circumstances' that makes it ok to matchfix. Its either ok, or its not. I agree that its not. Thats when the 'circumstances' should be used to apply the correct punishment. In white-ra's case the circumstances made the dude a hero. In this case it makes CoCa look way worse than he is. I apologize, i do believe in my statement i put that i wasn't for sure. Is that KR age? Because if so 16 is no different than 14. Still a fucking child. Korean age 18, age 17 by our conventions. If you reduce arguments like that then War is just as justified as murder. 1) A person killed a guy 2) An army killed an army. Do the whole army for murder! Ridiculous. I agree the Sen incident was just as stupid. It should have been investigated and punishments given out in my opinion. But we aren't talking about that in this thread, that can happen in another thread. Just because there was 1 bad decision doesn't justify making another one. What punishment would you have handed out? This kid is effectively an adult (he's 18 [17 to you], not 14). If this were a business deal in stocks or something he could get sued and have jail time for an equivalent situation. Also, the issue with judging this the same as the Sen situation is there is no 'board of eSports' that has international rule. It his based on country by country. And Korea, of all places, is the most likely to punish this behavior - which Coca and Byun were fully aware of. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Esport sponsors in korea, especially SC2, are VERY sensitive to these kind of things. Corruption of any kind reflects very badly on the sponsors, ruins the spirit of competition and Koreans take it very seriously. GG'ing and leaving a won game deliberately in a money tournament is against everything Boxer and his team stands for and deserves this kind of punishment. If Coca's good enough he'll be back in Code S in a few months anyway. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On November 17 2011 11:10 Nighthawks28 wrote: You didn't quote my entire post. How about when I mentioned when players obviously are not trying their best to win and are purposely losing for things like seeding purposes (which has happened many times) I did not, because I already "covered" that in my first post in this thread: People who try to defend coca by bringing in other examples (e.g. worker rushing, nuke and crazy batshit stuff etc.) should just keep in mind, that at least on the surface they kept to the tournamentrules, they simply "decided" to go with an unorthodox tactic which lost them the game. But CoCa and Byun did not even make an effort to "hide" the fact, that they were "fixing" the game. They discussed it in gamechat (which is stupid beyond any means anyway) and pretty much publicly stated: "We do not give a shit about this tournament and it's credibility, we will just mess around for a while." It's about the credibility of a tournament and the seriousness of the participants, if they do not follow they ridicule eSports in general, which hurts chances of sponsorship etc. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
The suspensions are more of a show, trying to separate SC2 scene from the Brood War scandal. | ||
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AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
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Louuster
Canada2869 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote: Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency. We can't move forward if our reactions to things are always far more extreme because of a big incident. People won't want to be involved with something that is void of humanity. I think people underestimate the sAviOr thing in Korea. Notice how the few people who will talk about it wont even mention it by name in interviews and stuff. Look at the reaction of Korean netizens when it was announced that savior was streaming some games on afreeca. I mean, the coach of KT reacted by saying that what he had done was worse than child molesting. The matchfixing scandal was a very big deal for korean players and the reaction to something minor like this is probably excessive but not surprising. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Those aren't anything the same. The WhiteRa situation was because his opponent got a free walkover and didn't want to take games off him that they didn't actually play. He didn't lose games that he was already winning - he simply didn't feel he deserved to be up 2-0 when they never played and suicided the first two games to make it fair. Coca blatantly admitted that he was going to quit so Byun could win, since Byun had a lot more at stake at that tournament than Coca did. If they actually played, Coca would have won and Byun would have been eliminated, fair and square. While it might not be the same flavor of match fixing, it still is pretty damn bad if somebody has already clearly won and then purposely quits after announcing what is going on. The people at that tournament suddenly lose credibility (because people watch the matches to see who wins considering a Code A spot is on the line), and lose money because a couple guys decided to start throwing games to help each other out. It's just something you don't do in competition. You let the game play itself out. You don't quit once you've won because there's no incentive for you to win. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Considering 17 year olds as children is kind of stretching the definition at least in my opinion. You cannot say, oh yeah we are sorry, but we are just clueless kids. I simply see no reason to deal with him differently than if he were 18 (age of maturity in most countries) since a single year does not do much of an effect anyway | ||
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Nighthawks28
United States232 Posts
On November 17 2011 11:13 ShiaoPi wrote: I did not, because I already "covered" that in my first post in this thread: People who try to defend coca by bringing in other examples (e.g. worker rushing, nuke and crazy batshit stuff etc.) should just keep in mind, that at least on the surface they kept to the tournamentrules, they simply "decided" to go with an unorthodox tactic which lost them the game. But CoCa and Byun did not even make an effort to "hide" the fact, that they were "fixing" the game. They discussed it in gamechat (which is stupid beyond any means anyway) and pretty much publicly stated: "We do not give a shit about this tournament and it's credibility, we will just mess around for a while." It's about the credibility of a tournament and the seriousness of the participants, if they do not follow they ridicule eSports in general, which hurts chances of sponsorship etc. Of course coca/byun did stupid stuff w/ the public chat and stuff. But I still view it very similar to other players obviously throwing matches b/c of seeding or other reasons. I'm not saying coca/byun shouldn't be punished. But they are getting punished too severe. | ||
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urasyupi2
United States810 Posts
On November 17 2011 11:14 AdrianHealey wrote: Can anyone summarize the consequences they faced? Coca got thrown out of the SlayerS house, transfered to B team and dropped out of Code S. Not sure about Byun/Ghostking. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
But since Coca and Byun told the world that they were fixing the matches, the teams had no other choice but to give out harsh punishments. Was it too harsh? I think so, but the korean culture is different and for their perspective it might be fine. I bet that if Coca wasn't so obvious no one would have called him out on it (for example if he 6pooled or went mass banelings and lost) and then if someone actually did he could make up an excuse later ("I was tired" or something). But he clearly told the world his intentions. And if what other people in this topic said is true, that coca threw game 2 so he could have "more practice", that makes coca even stupider, as he should know that he can easily get practice with byun if he wanted to after the tournament. Oh, and by the way, coca is 17, so while he's technically a "kid", he's still supposed to be old and mature enough to know what he did and to think his actions through. He's more a stupid adult. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On November 17 2011 11:19 Nighthawks28 wrote: Of course coca/byun did stupid stuff w/ the public chat and stuff. But I still view it very similar to other players obviously throwing matches b/c of seeding or other reasons. I'm not saying coca/byun shouldn't be punished. But they are getting punished too severe. Is the punishment really that severe? It's by the widest stretch simply a temporary suspension from the scene. I really cannot understand all the arguments of careerruining&stuff. Did Slayers say they are dropping Coca? No, he is just gone for a while and will be back after the incident is not that fresh in the minds of the community. Same goes for Byun, their careers are not ruined in any way, yes their reputation is dented (which is totally justified in my opinion) but they will be back in some weeks. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Thalanoth
32 Posts
If in, say, a highschool football game, two friends from different teams simply handed the ball to one another half way through the game, and it allowed one of the teams to win when they otherwise wouldn't, it would start a controversy. Sure, it's just a highschool foot ball game, but it hurts your image, and it hurts the image of the professionalism required to truly compete with others. Just my thoughts of course. | ||
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ckunkel1
United States181 Posts
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PikaXchU
Singapore379 Posts
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Philymaniz
United States177 Posts
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
Mistakes were made and the players responsible are being punished for it. It's not like they have been completely outcasted from SC2. I think the pusnishment is fit and sets a good example of how the Korean SC2 scene will not tolerate this kind of behaviour. There is no point in creating anymore threads about it and arguing why you think this dilemma is OK. Players are already being dealt with and in time they will make a come back. As far as I'm concerned, if niether make a comeback.... it just goes to show there is no championship material here anyway. I completely support how Boxer has handled this and very much shows his maturity and why he is one of the most respected players in the scene to date. | ||
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