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On November 17 2011 10:21 MisterTea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:10 ohampatu wrote:On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote:
Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this. thats what custom games/practce games are for, this was a tournament deserves what he got, if you match fix/intentionally throw games you should get punished for it
So the dude who intentionally threw 2 games to white-ra should be punished? They may not be same case scenarios, but the same thing happened. A person left the game, intentionally losing, for a reason. Do you remember when those two players (bratok and somebody else) were trying to lose on purpose so they didn't play Sen. The entire public knew about it, and nothing happened.
People intentionally throw games more than you guys want to admit. And the polls are showing for themselves how outrageous this is.
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On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
Exactly my thoughts. Punishment needed to be severe and it was deserved, now I doubt it will happen again, at least publicly.
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On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
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i think a ESV ban should be sufficient... what a intense punishment for a stupid move that he'd be likely not to do again
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if CoCa wanted more terran practice, the best terrans in the world are on his team. he left the game after byun asked him to and stated that he didnt want to lose, the game was therefore thrown. they may be great players but what they did was extremely stupid and quite frankly the teams have every right to do what they did. they made a stupid mistake and in a few months they'll be allowed to play again and if CoCa is still a good player he has a pretty good chance of making Code S again under the new format anyway
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On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
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On November 17 2011 10:26 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught. So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered? I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately.
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On November 17 2011 10:26 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught. So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered? I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
Apparently. There are a large amount of people who think making scapegoats out of people should be the routine to prevent MatchFixing, which imo is outrageous
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I think the punishment was fine. Boxer made the right decision, we have to remember, making the wrong decision and letting this all go away is a lot easier than punishing coca. I have mad props for boxer because he made the right decision for esports and his team.
On another note, match-fixing is something that can never be associated with esports. We should never have to question whether a player should/should not have deserved to win in that sense. It just cannot happen. Coca and byun kind of got off lucky in the sense that match-fixing is against korean law, and they were not punished by korean law (yet). And look on the bright side, both these players are extremely young and WILL be back in gsl sooner or later.
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Byun and Coca's punishment by the teams were needed to save their future career. There were massive outrages by the Korean fans, including death threats, believe it or not, from this. Removing them from the scene for couple months will allow them to continue being pro gamers in the long run.
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On November 17 2011 10:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:26 Numy wrote:On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught. So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered? I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching. That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately.
I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true.
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On November 17 2011 10:27 midgettoes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread? Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament. I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more? 'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
During an MLG, WhiteRa was knocked down to the loosers bracket by a guy called Gimix due to him being too late for his match. Gimix was later knocked down in the looser's bracket himself where he eventually met WhiteRa. Due to MLG's rule, Gimix started 0-2 depsite them not even having played a series before (since WhiteRa was DQed). Gimix then proceeded to worker rush WhiteRa two times in a row and evened the score 2-2. Then he played as normal. WhiteRa won the series 4-2
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On November 17 2011 10:10 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote:
Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
Bullcrap.
He threw a game so his good friend can get a Code A spot, not so that he can practice ZvT.
If he wanted to JUST practice more ZvT, he could've won that game and PMd byun a few hours later after asking for an informal practice session. Your claim needs a lot of evidence to be taken seriously.
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On November 17 2011 10:25 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:21 MisterTea wrote:On November 17 2011 10:10 ohampatu wrote:On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote:
Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this. thats what custom games/practce games are for, this was a tournament deserves what he got, if you match fix/intentionally throw games you should get punished for it So the dude who intentionally threw 2 games to white-ra should be punished? They may not be same case scenarios, but the same thing happened. A person left the game, intentionally losing, for a reason. Do you remember when those two players (bratok and somebody else) were trying to lose on purpose so they didn't play Sen. The entire public knew about it, and nothing happened. People intentionally throw games more than you guys want to admit. And the polls are showing for themselves how outrageous this is.
Also remember when Select essentially threw the series against MC in NASL? He didn't do it as blatantly but it was pretty damn obvious so he wouldn't get the 1st seed and face off against Puma. He seriously went BCs and some nuke rush.
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Slayers went way overboard and ESV should regulate the tournament better, i.e. not allowing Code S players or current Code A players a chance to compete for a Code A slot. I understand there is some money involved too? But I dunno I can see CoCa not wanting to smash his friend in the finals and take away his code A dream. Really unfortunate that it was made so public but kicking him from Code S is a joke.
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On November 17 2011 10:20 SpiZe wrote:Who cares if the tournament is big or small, "mean something" or not, huge prize pool or not. He let his opponent win in a COMPETITIVE game in the middle of a TOURNAMENT. How would you react if the same happened during the final of the GSL. That would seem and feel wrong. If it's wrong there then it probably is elsewhere too. Show nested quote + Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning. No they don't. They may think they are going to loose a map but when they happen to win it and are literally inside their opponents base they don't go "well I think you should win that" and leave. It's still a tournament with money on the line, not a CG. They may consider it practice but its still not. It's a tournament. It reminds me of the incident during a GO4SC2 Cup involving Laukyo where his coach was observing the game and helping him DURING THE GAME with COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of what Laukyo's opponent was doing. They were punished and their main defense was that they considered the GO4SC2 cup as training for Dreamhack I think it was... no matter what you consider it, it's still a friggin tournament with money on the line. Now that being said, do I agree with the punishments he was given ? Yes. Does he deserved more ? I don't think so. Is it comparable to the BW matchfixing incident ? Not even close. The same didn't happen to WhiteRa, he started 0-2 in a series because of the result of a previous serie that he didn't play, it's nowhere near the same. But thats a complete different case.
What exactly happened in the WhiteRa incident and why is it 'nowhere near the same?'
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On November 17 2011 10:30 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:28 Dfgj wrote:On November 17 2011 10:26 Numy wrote:On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught. So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered? I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching. That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately. I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true.
to be fair though Coca and Byun were punished by their teams not the league in which they were playing. i believe the GSL worded their investigation more into language then the actual throwing of the game. had EG or the teams involved in the white-ra issue punished their players then you could draw a much better comparison in treatment
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On November 17 2011 10:27 midgettoes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread? Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament. I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more? 'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots?
Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp.
He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
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If I was the team I'd be annoyed. It's not JUST "oh he let the other guy win".
Guys winning is what the sponsors want, it gives exposure. If your guys aren't winning, or are getting bad press (match fixing), the sponsors aren't going to be happy. Whether or not Boxer thinks it's right, it's the only decision. They'll let Coca back at some point, and in that time Coca can learn that what he did isn't ok.
Also, Byun isn't White Ra. So nyah.
EDIT: Also anyone saying "he left so he could get more ZvT practice" is utterly retarded. ONE WHOLE EXTRA GAME "practice"? You know he has teammates, practice partners, and ladder for that. If he wanted to use it as a practice, he'd arrange a practice game or 2 with Byun outside of a tournament.
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On November 17 2011 10:33 colingrad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:30 ohampatu wrote:On November 17 2011 10:28 Dfgj wrote:On November 17 2011 10:26 Numy wrote:On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught. So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered? I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching. That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately. I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true. to be fair though Coca and Byun were punished by their teams not the league in which they were playing. i believe the GSL worded their investigation more into language then the actual throwing of the game. had EG or the teams involved in the white-ra issue punished their players then you could draw a much better comparison in treatment
Exactly. Thats what i mean. Even GSL treated this less than the teams did. They were more concerned with the language that was broadcasted to the viewers. Im not speaking out again GSL, im speaking out against SlayerS making the wrong punishment, and since they made a bad punishment, Prime has to set an example similar to theirs so that SlayerS doesn't look to harsh.
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EPT
