I wanted to make some polls to see what other people thought about this.
From my POV, two children made a trivial mistake, and were faced with consequences that are life changing in the negative. All CocA wanted was a third game, he didn't throw the set, he just wanted more practice in a tournament that doesn't mean anything. I really think SlayerS handled this epicly wrong. Even GOMTV's post was more about the use of language, and not the actual incident.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
(Vote): Ban From GSL for certain timeframe (Vote): Ban From ESV for certain timeframe (Vote): Different Punishment Altogether (Vote): Nothing Big, This Is Trivial (Vote): KILL EM WITH FIRE! (Vote): Team Should Punish As They See Fit
Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency. We can't move forward if our reactions to things are always far more extreme because of a big incident. People won't want to be involved with something that is void of humanity.
Unfortunately for Coca though there really wasn't any other way to punish him. He was playing in Code S in like 3 days and if they did let him play then it would send the message that throwing games is okay. There really wasn't a punishment available besides not letting him play in Code S.
It's not even remotely close to what happened to WhiteRa. It was a stupid mistake, and I doubt CocA really thought it through, but athletes should be aware that the integrity of their sport is essential to fan support. Except for wrestling I guess.
Team has a right to handling their players as they see fit, especially with regards to how they represent the team and sponsors. Coca also has the right to leave if he feels he cannot function in that team culture, or if he is unwilling to bear the penalty.
On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote: Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency
I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
it sets a precedence of harsh punishment, which is a great deterrent imho. i dunno. i feel bad for coca, cuz i'm a fan. but i think he's good enough to recover and eventually get back into code S.
i reckon its a good move. abit harsh, but nothing else to be done really.
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
He didn't benefit from this in any way and helped his friend. The way he helped wasn't a well thought out and unethical but it is saddening to see him getting dropped out of Code S and down to Team B of Slayers.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
Because the teams are not their parents, and because we are discussing how wrong it is.
On November 17 2011 10:14 LesPhoques wrote: He didn't benefit from this in any way and helped his friend. The way he helped wasn't a well thought out and unethical but it is saddening to see him getting dropped out of Code S and down to Team B of Slayers.
He didn't help his friend. He left so he could have 1 more game of practice. That is it. At no point did he leave that game because he wanted Byun to win the set.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
The only reason they being so harsh is basically because of the public I think. They afraid of the public's perception of them so they being unfairly harsh. If this isn't wasn't as public like the majority of similar situations I doubt we seeing anything remotely like this. So I don't see why we can't judge them since we(The public) are the medium why which this has happened.
This also begs the question that if the act receives different punishment based on the publicity is it fair or right? Also the potentially hypocritical nature of all this. Look at GOMTV's response in which language is listed as an issue yet there are tons of instances of foul language in games with players that are/were in GSL.
On November 17 2011 10:14 LesPhoques wrote: He didn't benefit from this in any way and helped his friend. The way he helped wasn't a well thought out and unethical but it is saddening to see him getting dropped out of Code S and down to Team B of Slayers.
He didn't help his friend. He left so he could have 1 more game of practice. That is it. At no point did he leave that game because he wanted Byun to win the set.
Having one more game is directly brought about by letting Byun win. If this were a legal matter, he would absolutely be held responsible as it was not a secondary effect.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
I'd question this. Knocking someone into the B-team is one hell of a proven motivator for improving a player - and player management goes beyond Starcraft skill. It also includes professionalism and embodiment of team culture.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
The only reason they being so harsh is basically because of the public I think. They afraid of the public's perception of them so they being unfairly harsh. If this isn't wasn't as public like the majority of similar situations I doubt we seeing anything remotely like this. So I don't see why we can't judge them since we(The public) are the medium why which this has happened.
This also begs the question that if the act receives different punishment based on the publicity is it fair or right?
Yes, you hit it spot on as i mentioned above. I really feel like everything that has happened is because Boxer is trying to save Face. I dont care what kind of manager you are, the talent you are raising, is more important than some nobody off the street who doesn't want to read into the matter and see that this isn't a SaVior like incident.
Who cares if the tournament is big or small, "mean something" or not, huge prize pool or not. He let his opponent win in a COMPETITIVE game in the middle of a TOURNAMENT.
How would you react if the same happened during the final of the GSL. That would seem and feel wrong. If it's wrong there then it probably is elsewhere too.
Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
No they don't. They may think they are going to loose a map but when they happen to win it and are literally inside their opponents base they don't go "well I think you should win that" and leave.
It's still a tournament with money on the line, not a CG. They may consider it practice but its still not. It's a tournament. It reminds me of the incident during a GO4SC2 Cup involving Laukyo where his coach was observing the game and helping him DURING THE GAME with COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of what Laukyo's opponent was doing. They were punished and their main defense was that they considered the GO4SC2 cup as training for Dreamhack I think it was... no matter what you consider it, it's still a friggin tournament with money on the line.
Now that being said, do I agree with the punishments he was given ? Yes. Does he deserved more ? I don't think so. Is it comparable to the BW matchfixing incident ? Not even close.
The same didn't happen to WhiteRa, he started 0-2 in a series because of the result of a previous serie that he didn't play, it's nowhere near the same. But thats a complete different case.
On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote: Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency
I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
thats what custom games/practce games are for, this was a tournament deserves what he got, if you match fix/intentionally throw games you should get punished for it
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
You don't throw games in a tournament, period. If he needed more practice against Terran he should have been playing custom games with one of the million good terrans in the SlayerS house. I believe it was a dumb mistake and not intentional cheating, so they shouldn't be banned for life. But there was a GSL spot on the line, so temporarily banning them from the GSL is totally appropriate. They're lucky, they got off pretty easy.
I used to be part of the Super Smash Brothers fighting game community, and used to participate, and do well in tournaments where money would be on the line. Sometimes thousands of dollars would be on the line in major tournaments. There has always been debate on match splitting (Where the top two placing competitors can agree to split the combined 1st and 2nd prize, and simply play an exhibition match to settle the official placements if the players are tired, or the venue needs to shut down, etc. That being said, however the details differ quite a bit, there is still the issue of players fixing the match results, even if it is consensual. I believe that my example is without some of the criticism because it happens in the final match, so it's not like you are letting someone win (often teammates) whom you could normally beat, for instance, who might do better in a future matchup than you could.
On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote: Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency
I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
thats what custom games/practce games are for, this was a tournament deserves what he got, if you match fix/intentionally throw games you should get punished for it
So the dude who intentionally threw 2 games to white-ra should be punished? They may not be same case scenarios, but the same thing happened. A person left the game, intentionally losing, for a reason. Do you remember when those two players (bratok and somebody else) were trying to lose on purpose so they didn't play Sen. The entire public knew about it, and nothing happened. People intentionally throw games more than you guys want to admit. And the polls are showing for themselves how outrageous this is.
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
Exactly my thoughts. Punishment needed to be severe and it was deserved, now I doubt it will happen again, at least publicly.
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
if CoCa wanted more terran practice, the best terrans in the world are on his team. he left the game after byun asked him to and stated that he didnt want to lose, the game was therefore thrown. they may be great players but what they did was extremely stupid and quite frankly the teams have every right to do what they did. they made a stupid mistake and in a few months they'll be allowed to play again and if CoCa is still a good player he has a pretty good chance of making Code S again under the new format anyway
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately.
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
Apparently. There are a large amount of people who think making scapegoats out of people should be the routine to prevent MatchFixing, which imo is outrageous
I think the punishment was fine. Boxer made the right decision, we have to remember, making the wrong decision and letting this all go away is a lot easier than punishing coca. I have mad props for boxer because he made the right decision for esports and his team. On another note, match-fixing is something that can never be associated with esports. We should never have to question whether a player should/should not have deserved to win in that sense. It just cannot happen. Coca and byun kind of got off lucky in the sense that match-fixing is against korean law, and they were not punished by korean law (yet). And look on the bright side, both these players are extremely young and WILL be back in gsl sooner or later.
Byun and Coca's punishment by the teams were needed to save their future career. There were massive outrages by the Korean fans, including death threats, believe it or not, from this. Removing them from the scene for couple months will allow them to continue being pro gamers in the long run.
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately.
I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
During an MLG, WhiteRa was knocked down to the loosers bracket by a guy called Gimix due to him being too late for his match. Gimix was later knocked down in the looser's bracket himself where he eventually met WhiteRa. Due to MLG's rule, Gimix started 0-2 depsite them not even having played a series before (since WhiteRa was DQed). Gimix then proceeded to worker rush WhiteRa two times in a row and evened the score 2-2. Then he played as normal. WhiteRa won the series 4-2
On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote: Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency
I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
Bullcrap.
He threw a game so his good friend can get a Code A spot, not so that he can practice ZvT.
If he wanted to JUST practice more ZvT, he could've won that game and PMd byun a few hours later after asking for an informal practice session. Your claim needs a lot of evidence to be taken seriously.
On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote: Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency
I agree, i think people are 'jumping the gun' so to speak and not even thinking about the impact this could have on CoCa. He threw a single game so that he could get more Terran practice. He already believed he was going to win the set, and just wanted more T practice before he played his next opponent, which was a protoss. And well, his zvp is best int he world imo so i completely get it. He did what other people do daily. He is just the scapegoat to scare other people from doing this.
thats what custom games/practce games are for, this was a tournament deserves what he got, if you match fix/intentionally throw games you should get punished for it
So the dude who intentionally threw 2 games to white-ra should be punished? They may not be same case scenarios, but the same thing happened. A person left the game, intentionally losing, for a reason. Do you remember when those two players (bratok and somebody else) were trying to lose on purpose so they didn't play Sen. The entire public knew about it, and nothing happened. People intentionally throw games more than you guys want to admit. And the polls are showing for themselves how outrageous this is.
Also remember when Select essentially threw the series against MC in NASL? He didn't do it as blatantly but it was pretty damn obvious so he wouldn't get the 1st seed and face off against Puma. He seriously went BCs and some nuke rush.
Slayers went way overboard and ESV should regulate the tournament better, i.e. not allowing Code S players or current Code A players a chance to compete for a Code A slot. I understand there is some money involved too? But I dunno I can see CoCa not wanting to smash his friend in the finals and take away his code A dream. Really unfortunate that it was made so public but kicking him from Code S is a joke.
On November 17 2011 10:20 SpiZe wrote: Who cares if the tournament is big or small, "mean something" or not, huge prize pool or not. He let his opponent win in a COMPETITIVE game in the middle of a TOURNAMENT.
How would you react if the same happened during the final of the GSL. That would seem and feel wrong. If it's wrong there then it probably is elsewhere too.
Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
No they don't. They may think they are going to loose a map but when they happen to win it and are literally inside their opponents base they don't go "well I think you should win that" and leave.
It's still a tournament with money on the line, not a CG. They may consider it practice but its still not. It's a tournament. It reminds me of the incident during a GO4SC2 Cup involving Laukyo where his coach was observing the game and helping him DURING THE GAME with COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of what Laukyo's opponent was doing. They were punished and their main defense was that they considered the GO4SC2 cup as training for Dreamhack I think it was... no matter what you consider it, it's still a friggin tournament with money on the line.
Now that being said, do I agree with the punishments he was given ? Yes. Does he deserved more ? I don't think so. Is it comparable to the BW matchfixing incident ? Not even close.
The same didn't happen to WhiteRa, he started 0-2 in a series because of the result of a previous serie that he didn't play, it's nowhere near the same. But thats a complete different case.
What exactly happened in the WhiteRa incident and why is it 'nowhere near the same?'
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately.
I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true.
to be fair though Coca and Byun were punished by their teams not the league in which they were playing. i believe the GSL worded their investigation more into language then the actual throwing of the game. had EG or the teams involved in the white-ra issue punished their players then you could draw a much better comparison in treatment
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
If I was the team I'd be annoyed. It's not JUST "oh he let the other guy win".
Guys winning is what the sponsors want, it gives exposure. If your guys aren't winning, or are getting bad press (match fixing), the sponsors aren't going to be happy. Whether or not Boxer thinks it's right, it's the only decision. They'll let Coca back at some point, and in that time Coca can learn that what he did isn't ok.
Also, Byun isn't White Ra. So nyah.
EDIT: Also anyone saying "he left so he could get more ZvT practice" is utterly retarded. ONE WHOLE EXTRA GAME "practice"? You know he has teammates, practice partners, and ladder for that. If he wanted to use it as a practice, he'd arrange a practice game or 2 with Byun outside of a tournament.
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately.
I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true.
to be fair though Coca and Byun were punished by their teams not the league in which they were playing. i believe the GSL worded their investigation more into language then the actual throwing of the game. had EG or the teams involved in the white-ra issue punished their players then you could draw a much better comparison in treatment
Exactly. Thats what i mean. Even GSL treated this less than the teams did. They were more concerned with the language that was broadcasted to the viewers. Im not speaking out again GSL, im speaking out against SlayerS making the wrong punishment, and since they made a bad punishment, Prime has to set an example similar to theirs so that SlayerS doesn't look to harsh.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
So when parents say "You're grounded until I said otherwise", and that's fucked up? Wow, that was like the softest punishment you can possibly think of. Or you want him to say "Tee hee, he's just a kid, we're sorry, that won't happen again". How do you think that kind of apology will hold up in the future? As long as they're young and they can do stupid stuff and get away with it? What happens if all other young progamers think because they are good and young, they can get away with anything? You say Boxer is wrong when he thinks of the team when he gave that punishment, then did Coca think of the team when he did that action? Maybe it's just mindset from different culture or something, but as an Asian, I'm truly at shocked when people think this kind of punishment is too harsh
On November 17 2011 10:20 SpiZe wrote: Who cares if the tournament is big or small, "mean something" or not, huge prize pool or not. He let his opponent win in a COMPETITIVE game in the middle of a TOURNAMENT.
How would you react if the same happened during the final of the GSL. That would seem and feel wrong. If it's wrong there then it probably is elsewhere too.
Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
No they don't. They may think they are going to loose a map but when they happen to win it and are literally inside their opponents base they don't go "well I think you should win that" and leave.
It's still a tournament with money on the line, not a CG. They may consider it practice but its still not. It's a tournament. It reminds me of the incident during a GO4SC2 Cup involving Laukyo where his coach was observing the game and helping him DURING THE GAME with COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of what Laukyo's opponent was doing. They were punished and their main defense was that they considered the GO4SC2 cup as training for Dreamhack I think it was... no matter what you consider it, it's still a friggin tournament with money on the line.
Now that being said, do I agree with the punishments he was given ? Yes. Does he deserved more ? I don't think so. Is it comparable to the BW matchfixing incident ? Not even close.
The same didn't happen to WhiteRa, he started 0-2 in a series because of the result of a previous serie that he didn't play, it's nowhere near the same. But thats a complete different case.
What exactly happened in the WhiteRa incident and why is it 'nowhere near the same?'
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
During an MLG, WhiteRa was knocked down to the loosers bracket by a guy called Gimix due to him being too late for his match. Gimix was later knocked down in the looser's bracket himself where he eventually met WhiteRa. Due to MLG's rule, Gimix started 0-2 depsite them not even having played a series before (since WhiteRa was DQed). Gimix then proceeded to worker rush WhiteRa two times in a row and evened the score 2-2. Then he played as normal. WhiteRa won the series 4-2
In the Super Smash Bros scene they don't match fix, but IF BOTH players agree (final), they will split the pot and they will continue with a competitive match. Whoever wins, both get an even split prize pool.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
I think you need to learn more about how responsibility is determined. A person is not responsible for a secondary negative effect if that effect was not their immediate aim, and if their primary aim was not a problematic action that does not arise directly from the negative effect.
Example 1: A person forfeits a tournament due to schedule issues. Primary effect is that he is freed up, schedule wise. Secondary effect is that his opponent advances. However, having a freer schedule does not directly follow from his opponent gaining the win, but from not attending in the first place. There is no causal link between the opponent winning and him having a better schedule.
Example 2: Coca forfeits a game because he wants to play another. Primary effect is that he gets another game, secondary that Byun gets a win. However, the only way he gets another game is by allowing Byun to win. There is a direct causal link of letting Byun win -> play another game, and thus Coca is fully responsible.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca offered to let Byun win the game at the start of 2nd game, saying he's only there to practice. And polls are useless when the community reactions are based on inaccurate information, such as yours.
On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote: It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught.
So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered?
I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching.
That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately.
I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true.
to be fair though Coca and Byun were punished by their teams not the league in which they were playing. i believe the GSL worded their investigation more into language then the actual throwing of the game. had EG or the teams involved in the white-ra issue punished their players then you could draw a much better comparison in treatment
Exactly. Thats what i mean. Even GSL treated this less than the teams did. They were more concerned with the language that was broadcasted to the viewers. Im not speaking out again GSL, im speaking out against SlayerS making the wrong punishment, and since they made a bad punishment, Prime has to set an example similar to theirs so that SlayerS doesn't look to harsh.
for me personally i feel that Boxer as the one who is essentially the owner and provided a place for coca to stay eat and train and then to have this player do something so dumb on a broadcasted game for whatever reason is justified. i dont think hes going to be banished from the house and he's still on SlayerS for now and still will have access to all the practice partners who are probably way better than byun. and btw do you have a link to the full chat logs? i didnt know if was posted in the other thread or not
This is stupid, people throw tournament results all the time for other people to be given opportunities if they know their team doesn't care about results in a certain tournament.
He definitely shouldn't have talked about it, but to extract yourself from Code S, the hardest league to qualify for in the world, may be a career ending decision. If the team wanted to reprimand him, or forced him into this decision, I understand, but the only people who should care should be ESV, whose reputation was at stake.
to be honest. anyone saying that it's no big deal and that it's trivial do not get the "spirit" of the tournament/game. If I remember correctly, winning the tournament give winner a spot in GSL's code A. Now, I would say that this is "trivial" if the prize of the tournament doesnt matter to any of the players (meaning they are both in the GSL and doesn't need the prize). But the other player, in this case, does not have a GSL spot; therefore, the prize matters to him. And because the prize matter to one of the players, this case can not be "trivial". To CocA, this tournament may be trivial. But it is not trivial to the other player; therefore, this case is not trivial. The tournament is a competition that awards the winner the coveted spot in the GSL. Emphasis on competition. If CocA, needed practice, keep winning and play more games in the tournament or just practice in the team house.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
So when parents say "You're grounded until I said otherwise", and that's fucked up? Wow, that was like the softest punishment you can possibly think of. Or you want him to say "Tee hee, he's just a kid, we're sorry, that won't happen again". How do you think that kind of apology will hold up in the future? As long as they're young and they can do stupid stuff and get away with it? What happens if all other young progamers think because they are good and young, they can get away with anything? You say Boxer is wrong when he thinks of the team when he gave that punishment, then did Coca think of the team when he did that action? Maybe it's just mindset from different culture or something, but as an Asian, I'm truly at shocked when people think this kind of punishment is too harsh
LOL @ You. They didn't ground CoCa. Look at SC2 progress as a set of stairs. 250 being the top where Nestea and MVP are sitting. CoCa was well over half way there, and possibly closer that even that on a good stretch near theh top. He was made to go to the very bottom, and told to wait there untill he could start climbing again.
Also, your 'parent and grounding' thing has absolutely nothing to do with what i said, nor anything to do with the punishment CoCa received. I never said they should just apologize or anything, its like your took 2 words i said, and then created your own example out of thin air.
Speaking of Cultures, maybe its an Asian thing, but possibly ruining a kids future because of one fuckup is generally not something i look kindly to, so yes i disagree. Idk, maybe its an American thing, but when i punish my son, i dont do it in a way that could ruin whatever it is he is doing. If my son does something stupid fishing, i dont punish him so badly that he'll never want to fish again. Nobody is thinking about CoCa here. They are only thinking about Boxer's Image, The Teams Image, Esports Image. SICKENS ME. Think about the fucking child.
On November 17 2011 10:42 Neoattitude wrote: to be honest. anyone saying that it's no big deal and that it's trivial do not get the "spirit" of the tournament/game. If I remember correctly, winning the tournament give winner a spot in GSL's code A. Now, I would say that this is "trivial" if the prize of the tournament doesnt matter to any of the players (meaning they are both in the GSL and doesn't need the prize). But the other player, in this case, does not have a GSL spot; therefore, the prize matters to him. And because the prize matter to one of the players, this case can not be "trivial". To CocA, this tournament may be trivial. But it is not trivial to the other player; therefore, this case is not trivial. The tournament is a competition that awards the winner the coveted spot in the GSL. Emphasis on competition. If CocA, needed practice, keep winning and play more games in the tournament or just practice in the team house.
People like you are what makes these conversations bad.
Please dont 'try to remember' what you think its about. For your information, this tournament meant jack shit, there was no code a spot on the line.
You can't force someone to try, but there has to be a repercussion for throwing away the match like CocA. The punishment had to be strict considering the incident in brood war. It's setting precedence if anything like this were to happen in the future.
I also feel that the incident at assembly should have been handled in a more authoritarian manner. It was EU though, so it's understandable why nothing (or much) was done at the time. WhiteRa incident is also completely different and shouldn't be used in the same context as this.
On November 17 2011 10:41 Holcan wrote: This is stupid, people throw tournament results all the time for other people to be given opportunities if they know their team doesn't care about results in a certain tournament.
He definitely shouldn't have talked about it, but to extract yourself from Code S, the hardest league to qualify for in the world, may be a career ending decision. If the team wanted to reprimand him, or forced him into this decision, I understand, but the only people who should care should be ESV, whose reputation was at stake.
Why on earth do you assume Slayers, who has a reputation to maintain and sponsor support, would not care about what one of their representatives does?
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
How is the fact he would win the next series easily (and who can garuantee that in a tournament anyway?) justification for wanting a full series? The idea of a tournament is to progress and win. What Coca did was against the whole concept of a tournament (best players wins). As other people have said, you are simply misinformed. If Coca wanted ZvT practice he had the full army of SlayerS' terran to practice against - some of the best TvZers in the world. This excuse is pathetic - he deserved it.
Also, comparing this to the White-Ra incidient is ridiculous. Someone getting DQed and then the opposition effectively saying 'let's make this an even playing field rather than exploit the extended series' vs someone 'wanting more practice' (which I still don't even believe is the reason) is so different. If you can't see that... well... /shrug
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
Majority saying they deserve life time ban, with only a handful saying the current punishment is enough. I haven't seen any response saying this was too much. There's so much ugly hatred and threats toward the two involved that it doesn't deserve any translation.
Community polls are quite useless as half the people who vote have little to no idea about what transpired and go with the majority or go along misinformed opinions. Case in point being a ton of people still saying that Coca dropped the game since he wanted Byun to have an easy Code A spot which isn't true since this set of weeklies had not relation with Code A spot.
In addition, the OP of this thread completely ignores the fact that different cultures have different reactions towards such instances. This case just magnifies this cultural difference between Korean and foreign scene where the punishment is too lenient according to Koreans while it is too tough according to foreigners as demonstrated by the post linked above. Considering that the reaction of the local Korean community is more relevant to the teams (due to sponsors, etc.), it doesn't surprise me that they dealt the harsh punishment.
First, you say they were "children", and at least imo, that's not a excuse, Coca isn't 13, he is 17 he is old enough to know right and wrong.
Second you say "he didn't throw the set, he just wanted more practice in a tournament that doesn't mean anything." , he won the second game so the series was over, by giving that game away and then losing the third game, he did throw the set, and don't say the tournament dosen't mean anything, no one was pointing a gun at Coca to play, if he is playing in a tournament you just don't throw games away, they are professional players, with team that have sponsors.
You also say Coca wanted a third game and that pro's do that all the time on maps they dont plan on winning...they don't throw games away, they will still play and if they can win they will, they will not quit right when game starts.
If he wanted to practice against terran, his team has lots of them or he could have pm byun after the series...
I do believe the punishment was handled pretty well. Although it would have satisfied me if he just got DQ'ed for the running GSL season and not for an unknown amount of time.
People who try to defend coca by bringing in other examples (e.g. worker rushing, nuke and crazy batshit stuff etc.) should just keep in mind, that at least on the surface they kept to the tournamentrules, they simply "decided" to go with an unorthodox tactic which lost them the game. But CoCa and Byun did not even make an effort to "hide" the fact, that they were "fixing" the game. They discussed it in gamechat (which is stupid beyond any means anyway) and pretty much publicly stated: "We do not give a shit about this tournament and it's credibility, we will just mess around for a while." If you argue, that a small weekly tournament could matter next to nothing in the wide scheme of events, I must say, that such a double-standard will ruin eSports. From "ESV weekly is unimportant" to "well Code A is unimportant since only code S matters" might not be too far if you follow that trail of thought and then you are in a lot of trouble.
Looking at it from the mentioned perspective the reaction of ESV and GSL are in my opinion plausible. Temporary Bans from playing in the respective tournaments. The reaction from the Teams was pretty straightforward too, they had to react if they wanted to make clear that any kind of "matchfixing" is not approved by them (and after the entire savior matter, one can easily see, why it is important to them to show that "matchfixing" is an outrageous issue)
Sure they are both young and probably did not think about the consequences, but that's the hardships and up&downs of life. They will be back eventually and CoCa will no doubt be back in GSL and the Slayers A-Team in no time after the punishments are lifted.You can say it was a harsh but necessary education measure for young adults (seriously stop calling 17 year olds kids....they know what is "right" or "wrong"), to ensure that their future in eSports will not come to harm through stupidity (or naivety one can say), which result in utter follies.
TL;DR: Punishments ok, don't worry about the players, after they learnt their lesson, they will be back.
The ban from ESV is correct, because due to a bit of silliness, they indirectly disrespected the tournament. ESV reacted very precisely - the ban is only until January, no overreaction. They will also work on new rules and format, which is great. (One advice: Like the GSL, you should forbid chat, except for clear conceding like "gg", or administrative issues.)
The other reactions were due to investigation for "match-fixing" (even they put it in quotes, because nobody knew what the exact situation was). After it is fully confirmed that the case doesn't really fall in the category of "match-fixing", and was more of a stupid way to forfeit a match due to scheduling conflicts, they should redeem Coca with some statement, and at least let him back directly in Code A, if not Code S. Though I have no doubt he can get the whole way back regardless.
Meh, there isn't much to discuss in this new thread. you guys are just going to argue about the same things like matchfixing definition or how koreans treat this stuff differently.
problem is few of you have perspective from their viewpoint. it ends up with all of you guys bashing each other or just restating your point over and over. if your point was to gauge community reaction you know damn well what it would be. most vote yes it's unjustified and an overreaction.
throw the same poll up on a korean forum and it's the opposite.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
How is the fact he would win the next series easily (and who can garuantee that in a tournament anyway?) justification for wanting a full series? The idea of a tournament is to progress and win. What Coca did was against the whole concept of a tournament (best players wins). As other people have said, you are simply misinformed. If Coca wanted ZvT practice he had the full army of SlayerS' terran to practice against - some of the best TvZers in the world. This excuse is pathetic - he deserved it.
Also, comparing this to the White-Ra incidient is ridiculous. Someone getting DQed and then the opposition effectively saying 'let's make this an even playing field rather than exploit the extended series' vs someone 'wanting more practice' (which I still don't even believe is the reason) is so different. If you can't see that... well... /shrug
1. A person threw 2 matches against White-Ra to even it up, to make a bo3. 2. This example, a person threw 1 match to even it up, for a final game.
Both are apples to apples. A person, threw the match on purpose, so as to have more games. I dont care if you are a White-Ra fanboy and think its cool just cause it was White-Ra so you dont want to call it matchfixing, but it was.
Do you remember the game when 2 people purposely tried to lose so as not to play Sen? This shit happens more than people care to admit. You guys are just super objective about it based who who did it, and what region it was in. The only reason this punishment happened to CoCa is because he is a Korean on Boxer's Team. He was made an example of. The punishment doesn't fit the crime, thats what being 'made an example' of is. All of this was done to save face for Boxer/SlayerS/Prime/GSL/ESV. I think you guys need to realize that this kid is 15 (im pretty sure), which to me is only 14. 14. I can say it again for you, 14.
Im not saying he shouldn't be punished, but when did we stop thinking about the child in all of this? No matter what punishment he receives, it needs to fit his age and his act, and not hinder is career. For all we know we will never see him again because he has to start over in B-Team and work his way through SlayerS, and then through GSL again. Im sure neither of those are something most non KR pro's could do. Yet we all expect CoCa to do it easily in 3 months or so when he is allowed to play again?
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
So when parents say "You're grounded until I said otherwise", and that's fucked up? Wow, that was like the softest punishment you can possibly think of. Or you want him to say "Tee hee, he's just a kid, we're sorry, that won't happen again". How do you think that kind of apology will hold up in the future? As long as they're young and they can do stupid stuff and get away with it? What happens if all other young progamers think because they are good and young, they can get away with anything? You say Boxer is wrong when he thinks of the team when he gave that punishment, then did Coca think of the team when he did that action? Maybe it's just mindset from different culture or something, but as an Asian, I'm truly at shocked when people think this kind of punishment is too harsh
LOL @ You. They didn't ground CoCa. Look at SC2 progress as a set of stairs. 250 being the top where Nestea and MVP are sitting. CoCa was well over half way there, and possibly closer that even that on a good stretch near theh top. He was made to go to the very bottom, and told to wait there untill he could start climbing again.
Also, your 'parent and grounding' thing has absolutely nothing to do with what i said, nor anything to do with the punishment CoCa received. I never said they should just apologize or anything, its like your took 2 words i said, and then created your own example out of thin air.
Speaking of Cultures, maybe its an Asian thing, but possibly ruining a kids future because of one fuckup is generally not something i look kindly to, so yes i disagree. Idk, maybe its an American thing, but when i punish my son, i dont do it in a way that could ruin whatever it is he is doing. If my son does something stupid fishing, i dont punish him so badly that he'll never want to fish again. Nobody is thinking about CoCa here. They are only thinking about Boxer's Image, The Teams Image, Esports Image. SICKENS ME. Think about the fucking child.
I might be wrong, but Slayers didn't release Coca did they? Pretty sure I just saw that Coca was kicked out of the team house and A-team "indefinitely". If that really is the case, then all this "his career is ruined" business is kind of a moot point. Until Boxer decides (somehow and I doubt it) to release Coca, I wouldn't say his career is in jeopardy.
On November 17 2011 10:54 TheGiftedApe wrote: Well heres something that is bothering me, Everythread is coca this coca that, WTF BYUN DID SOMETHING JUST AS BAD/WORSE.
Maybe your not reading what is said. Were not all on about what Coca and Byun did. Were on about how Coca was punished wrongly. Yes i agree with you, Byun was part of it, and should be in more trouble for what was put in the chat logs. He isnt the main concern because Prime didn't lynch the kid right away, which is what SlayerS did in a matter of hours.
On November 17 2011 10:41 Holcan wrote: This is stupid, people throw tournament results all the time for other people to be given opportunities if they know their team doesn't care about results in a certain tournament.
He definitely shouldn't have talked about it, but to extract yourself from Code S, the hardest league to qualify for in the world, may be a career ending decision. If the team wanted to reprimand him, or forced him into this decision, I understand, but the only people who should care should be ESV, whose reputation was at stake.
Why on earth do you assume Slayers, who has a reputation to maintain and sponsor support, would not care about what one of their representatives does?
Did you miss the part where I said that if SlayerS wished to reprimand him than I understand? However SlayerS reputation is not at stake over this incident, ESVTV, a budding organization, does have an easily flexible reputation.
I believe this situation is handled correctly because if this kind of action is not harshly punished the first time there will definitely more people who try to do it. By punishing both player so harshly it can save future incidents from happening.
Coca's team mates were away so he needed high level TvZ practice. Byun has high level TvZ. Coca's match was 2 days later iirc. He needed effective practice and what better way then to face Byun in a tournament environment? It's much more real than the GSL as things like nerves and viewership play a role.
And honestly I don't know why you guys keep syaing oh Coca would have won anyway. Tastosis kept saying that Nestea was definitely going to win against Huk after Huk screwed up in the early game. What if Coca had just stopped macroing and made all his units kill each other off for BM and let Byun expand macro up and destroy him. Same thing basically; Coca jsut didn't want to waste time so he jsut GG and left. I mean its like how Idra left the game in which MMA blew up his own CC. Why isn't Idra getting kicked off the A-team? This whole incident doesn't seem to be trying to set an example for progamers but seems more like an attempt by some arrogant Korean organizations doing anything to protect their pride and reputation even if it means screwing things up for Coca.Public hate from the Korean community and a ban from ESTV is enough of a punishment; anything further is just selfish and unethical imho.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
How is the fact he would win the next series easily (and who can garuantee that in a tournament anyway?) justification for wanting a full series? The idea of a tournament is to progress and win. What Coca did was against the whole concept of a tournament (best players wins). As other people have said, you are simply misinformed. If Coca wanted ZvT practice he had the full army of SlayerS' terran to practice against - some of the best TvZers in the world. This excuse is pathetic - he deserved it.
Also, comparing this to the White-Ra incidient is ridiculous. Someone getting DQed and then the opposition effectively saying 'let's make this an even playing field rather than exploit the extended series' vs someone 'wanting more practice' (which I still don't even believe is the reason) is so different. If you can't see that... well... /shrug
1. A person threw 2 matches against White-Ra to even it up, to make a bo3. 2. This example, a person threw 1 match to even it up, for a final game.
Both are apples to apples. A person, threw the match on purpose, so as to have more games. I dont care if you are a White-Ra fanboy and think its cool just cause it was White-Ra so you dont want to call it matchfixing, but it was.
Do you remember the game when 2 people purposely tried to lose so as not to play Sen? This shit happens more than people care to admit. You guys are just super objective about it based who who did it, and what region it was in. The only reason this punishment happened to CoCa is because he is a Korean on Boxer's Team. He was made an example of. The punishment doesn't fit the crime, thats what being 'made an example' of is. All of this was done to save face for Boxer/SlayerS/Prime/GSL/ESV. I think you guys need to realize that this kid is 15 (im pretty sure), which to me is only 14. 14. I can say it again for you, 14.
Im not saying he shouldn't be punished, but when did we stop thinking about the child in all of this? No matter what punishment he receives, it needs to fit his age and his act, and not hinder is career. For all we know we will never see him again because he has to start over in B-Team and work his way through SlayerS, and then through GSL again. Im sure neither of those are something most non KR pro's could do. Yet we all expect CoCa to do it easily in 3 months or so when he is allowed to play again?
Just quickly...
1) A person threw 2 matches, that they never won but were awarded because of a DQ. The person was then awarded a 2-0 lead in an extended series that they knew they didn't earn. 2) A person threw a won game. They earnt 2 wins by that point.
If you reduce the situations to that point of simplicity and ignore other factors you are being ridiculous. You can't ignore the extraneous circumstances of White-Ra's case. There were no such circumstances for Coca. He was just being an idiot. This kid is also 17 if you care to do some research. Maybe you are confusing him with Leenock. Get your facts right...
If you don't want to compare it to white-ra incident.
How about when idra forfeited the rest of the games against nerchio. Or how about idra forfeiting the rest of his IPL3 group matches b/c it was just for seeding and he felt it was meaningless, even though extra money was involved. Or how about demuslim forfeiting the rest of his matches to Idra, which allowed Idra to qualify for ESWC (I know demuslim forfeited b/c his schedule conflicted with the main tournament but he still played in a qualifier and eliminated players, even though he couldn't attend but he could've read the tournament info before hand).
How about select not trying his best in season 1 of NASL against MC in the group matches b/c select didn't want to be the #1 seed going into the finals (b/c the #1 seed played the winner of the open bracket, which ended up being Puma).
This happens all the time. It's just that coca/byum just did stupid stuff.
Match fixing ruins the fans experience/wastes their time, and brings down the 'competitive' side of E-Sports. Who wants to watch a final if they know that both players are getting the same cut? Ro32 or Ro4, it doesn't matter.
He deserved what he got, being good is not an excuse to be let off with a slap on the wrist. He's definitely no savior, but match fixing is one of the things that could KILL starcraft/esports.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
So when parents say "You're grounded until I said otherwise", and that's fucked up? Wow, that was like the softest punishment you can possibly think of. Or you want him to say "Tee hee, he's just a kid, we're sorry, that won't happen again". How do you think that kind of apology will hold up in the future? As long as they're young and they can do stupid stuff and get away with it? What happens if all other young progamers think because they are good and young, they can get away with anything? You say Boxer is wrong when he thinks of the team when he gave that punishment, then did Coca think of the team when he did that action? Maybe it's just mindset from different culture or something, but as an Asian, I'm truly at shocked when people think this kind of punishment is too harsh
LOL @ You. They didn't ground CoCa. Look at SC2 progress as a set of stairs. 250 being the top where Nestea and MVP are sitting. CoCa was well over half way there, and possibly closer that even that on a good stretch near theh top. He was made to go to the very bottom, and told to wait there untill he could start climbing again.
Also, your 'parent and grounding' thing has absolutely nothing to do with what i said, nor anything to do with the punishment CoCa received. I never said they should just apologize or anything, its like your took 2 words i said, and then created your own example out of thin air.
Speaking of Cultures, maybe its an Asian thing, but possibly ruining a kids future because of one fuckup is generally not something i look kindly to, so yes i disagree. Idk, maybe its an American thing, but when i punish my son, i dont do it in a way that could ruin whatever it is he is doing. If my son does something stupid fishing, i dont punish him so badly that he'll never want to fish again. Nobody is thinking about CoCa here. They are only thinking about Boxer's Image, The Teams Image, Esports Image. SICKENS ME. Think about the fucking child.
I might be wrong, but Slayers didn't release Coca did they? Pretty sure I just saw that Coca was kicked out of the team house and A-team "indefinitely". If that really is the case, then all this "his career is ruined" business is kind of a moot point. Until Boxer decides (somehow and I doubt it) to release Coca, I wouldn't say his career is in jeopardy.
And for all we know, Boxer will just ground him until the public cools down, that's all, it may not even take 2,3 weeks, or 1 GSL season.
Look at people like Leenock, that kid dropped out of code S, then code A, requalified, got to code A, then now he got to round 8 code S. Dropping out of code S is not a career ruining move, yes it's harsh, but that's the point.
On November 17 2011 10:59 Dragonmaster26 wrote: Coca's team mates were away so he needed high level TvZ practice. Byun has high level TvZ. Coca's match was 2 days later iirc. He needed effective practice and what better way then to face Byun in a tournament environment? It's much more real than the GSL as things like nerves and viewership play a role.
And honestly I don't know why you guys keep syaing oh Coca would have won anyway. Tastosis kept saying that Nestea was definitely going to win against Huk after Huk screwed up in the early game. What if Coca had just stopped macroing and made all his units kill each other off for BM and let Byun expand macro up and destroy him. Same thing basically; Coca jsut didn't want to waste time so he jsut GG and left. I mean its like how Idra left the game in which MMA blew up his own CC. Why isn't Idra getting kicked off the A-team? This whole incident doesn't seem to be trying to set an example for progamers but seems more like an attempt by some arrogant Korean organizations doing anything to protect their pride and reputation even if it means screwing things up for Coca.Public hate from the Korean community and a ban from ESTV is enough of a punishment; anything further is just selfish and unethical imho.
Boxer sending Coca off to think about what he's done isn't exactly selfish, or unethical. Still, if Coca was released/fired, then I would say that Slayers went too far. For crying out loud, all that's happened to Coca is:
A) forfeited Code-S position (which I honestly think he can win back) B) public "hate" C) a little time for reflection
Straight from liquipedia: Birth Date: 1994-04-14 Age: 17 (Korean: 18)
I think you're taking this, "Think of the children!" angle too far. Anyways, Coca (and Byun) are still in the scene. There is a chance. Their careers aren't over, at least as far as I know.
On November 17 2011 11:01 Nighthawks28 wrote: If you don't want to compare it to white-ra incident.
How about when idra forfeited the rest of the games against nerchio. Or how about idra forfeiting the rest of his IPL3 group matches b/c it was just for seeding and he felt it was meaningless, even though extra money was involved. Or how about demuslim forfeiting the rest of his matches to Idra, which allowed Idra to qualify for ESWC (I know demuslim forfeited b/c his schedule conflicted with the main tournament but he still played in a qualifier and eliminated players, even though he couldn't attend but he could've read the tournament info before hand).
Forfeiting before you play the matches can not be compared to quitting a game and surrendering although you know that you won. The first can be put into bad sportmanship, which is not nice but okay, the latter is "matchfixing", which effects should be clear on eSports.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
How is the fact he would win the next series easily (and who can garuantee that in a tournament anyway?) justification for wanting a full series? The idea of a tournament is to progress and win. What Coca did was against the whole concept of a tournament (best players wins). As other people have said, you are simply misinformed. If Coca wanted ZvT practice he had the full army of SlayerS' terran to practice against - some of the best TvZers in the world. This excuse is pathetic - he deserved it.
Also, comparing this to the White-Ra incidient is ridiculous. Someone getting DQed and then the opposition effectively saying 'let's make this an even playing field rather than exploit the extended series' vs someone 'wanting more practice' (which I still don't even believe is the reason) is so different. If you can't see that... well... /shrug
1. A person threw 2 matches against White-Ra to even it up, to make a bo3. 2. This example, a person threw 1 match to even it up, for a final game.
Both are apples to apples. A person, threw the match on purpose, so as to have more games. I dont care if you are a White-Ra fanboy and think its cool just cause it was White-Ra so you dont want to call it matchfixing, but it was.
Do you remember the game when 2 people purposely tried to lose so as not to play Sen? This shit happens more than people care to admit. You guys are just super objective about it based who who did it, and what region it was in. The only reason this punishment happened to CoCa is because he is a Korean on Boxer's Team. He was made an example of. The punishment doesn't fit the crime, thats what being 'made an example' of is. All of this was done to save face for Boxer/SlayerS/Prime/GSL/ESV. I think you guys need to realize that this kid is 15 (im pretty sure), which to me is only 14. 14. I can say it again for you, 14.
Im not saying he shouldn't be punished, but when did we stop thinking about the child in all of this? No matter what punishment he receives, it needs to fit his age and his act, and not hinder is career. For all we know we will never see him again because he has to start over in B-Team and work his way through SlayerS, and then through GSL again. Im sure neither of those are something most non KR pro's could do. Yet we all expect CoCa to do it easily in 3 months or so when he is allowed to play again?
Just quickly...
1) A person threw 2 matches, that they never won but were awarded because of a DQ. The person was then awarded a 2-0 lead in an extended series that they knew they didn't earn. 2) A person threw a won game. They earnt 2 wins by that point.
If you reduce the situations to that point of simplicity and ignore other factors you are being ridiculous. You can't ignore the extraneous circumstances of White-Ra's case. There were no such circumstances for Coca. He was just being an idiot. This kid is also 17 if you care to do some research. Maybe you are confusing him with Leenock. Get your facts right...
No. You have to reduce situations down to this. Its that simple and dry. Its either 'ok' to leave game, or its not. You can't say 'oh well because of so and so its ok, but because of this its not'. The rules need to apply across the board. You keep bringing that up, but ignoring when the 2 players tried to 'lose on purpose' so as not to play sen. In the other thread it was almost mentioned early on Demu giving a game to Idra on purpose. There is no 'circumstances' that makes it ok to matchfix. Its either ok, or its not. I agree that its not. Thats when the 'circumstances' should be used to apply the correct punishment. In white-ra's case the circumstances made the dude a hero. In this case it makes CoCa look way worse than he is. I apologize, i do believe in my statement i put that i wasn't for sure. Is that KR age? Because if so 16 is no different than 14. Still a fucking child.
On November 17 2011 11:01 Nighthawks28 wrote: If you don't want to compare it to white-ra incident.
How about when idra forfeited the rest of the games against nerchio. Or how about idra forfeiting the rest of his IPL3 group matches b/c it was just for seeding and he felt it was meaningless, even though extra money was involved. Or how about demuslim forfeiting the rest of his matches to Idra, which allowed Idra to qualify for ESWC (I know demuslim forfeited b/c his schedule conflicted with the main tournament but he still played in a qualifier and eliminated players, even though he couldn't attend but he could've read the tournament info before hand).
Forfeiting before you play the matches can not be compared to quitting a game and surrendering although you know that you won. The first can be put into bad sportmanship, which is not nice but okay, the latter is "matchfixing", which effects should be clear on eSports.
You didn't quote my entire post. How about when I mentioned when players obviously are not trying their best to win and are purposely losing for things like seeding purposes (which has happened many times)
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread?
Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament.
I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more?
'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me.
OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'.
You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
How is the fact he would win the next series easily (and who can garuantee that in a tournament anyway?) justification for wanting a full series? The idea of a tournament is to progress and win. What Coca did was against the whole concept of a tournament (best players wins). As other people have said, you are simply misinformed. If Coca wanted ZvT practice he had the full army of SlayerS' terran to practice against - some of the best TvZers in the world. This excuse is pathetic - he deserved it.
Also, comparing this to the White-Ra incidient is ridiculous. Someone getting DQed and then the opposition effectively saying 'let's make this an even playing field rather than exploit the extended series' vs someone 'wanting more practice' (which I still don't even believe is the reason) is so different. If you can't see that... well... /shrug
1. A person threw 2 matches against White-Ra to even it up, to make a bo3. 2. This example, a person threw 1 match to even it up, for a final game.
Both are apples to apples. A person, threw the match on purpose, so as to have more games. I dont care if you are a White-Ra fanboy and think its cool just cause it was White-Ra so you dont want to call it matchfixing, but it was.
Do you remember the game when 2 people purposely tried to lose so as not to play Sen? This shit happens more than people care to admit. You guys are just super objective about it based who who did it, and what region it was in. The only reason this punishment happened to CoCa is because he is a Korean on Boxer's Team. He was made an example of. The punishment doesn't fit the crime, thats what being 'made an example' of is. All of this was done to save face for Boxer/SlayerS/Prime/GSL/ESV. I think you guys need to realize that this kid is 15 (im pretty sure), which to me is only 14. 14. I can say it again for you, 14.
Im not saying he shouldn't be punished, but when did we stop thinking about the child in all of this? No matter what punishment he receives, it needs to fit his age and his act, and not hinder is career. For all we know we will never see him again because he has to start over in B-Team and work his way through SlayerS, and then through GSL again. Im sure neither of those are something most non KR pro's could do. Yet we all expect CoCa to do it easily in 3 months or so when he is allowed to play again?
Just quickly...
1) A person threw 2 matches, that they never won but were awarded because of a DQ. The person was then awarded a 2-0 lead in an extended series that they knew they didn't earn. 2) A person threw a won game. They earnt 2 wins by that point.
If you reduce the situations to that point of simplicity and ignore other factors you are being ridiculous. You can't ignore the extraneous circumstances of White-Ra's case. There were no such circumstances for Coca. He was just being an idiot. This kid is also 17 if you care to do some research. Maybe you are confusing him with Leenock. Get your facts right...
No. You have to reduce situations down to this. Its that simple and dry. Its either 'ok' to leave game, or its not. You can't say 'oh well because of so and so its ok, but because of this its not'. The rules need to apply across the board. You keep bringing that up, but ignoring when the 2 players tried to 'lose on purpose' so as not to play sen. In the other thread it was almost mentioned early on Demu giving a game to Idra on purpose. There is no 'circumstances' that makes it ok to matchfix. Its either ok, or its not. I agree that its not. Thats when the 'circumstances' should be used to apply the correct punishment. In white-ra's case the circumstances made the dude a hero. In this case it makes CoCa look way worse than he is. I apologize, i do believe in my statement i put that i wasn't for sure. Is that KR age? Because if so 16 is no different than 14. Still a fucking child.
Korean age 18, age 17 by our conventions.
If you reduce arguments like that then War is just as justified as murder.
1) A person killed a guy 2) An army killed an army.
Do the whole army for murder! Ridiculous.
I agree the Sen incident was just as stupid. It should have been investigated and punishments given out in my opinion. But we aren't talking about that in this thread, that can happen in another thread. Just because there was 1 bad decision doesn't justify making another one. What punishment would you have handed out? This kid is effectively an adult (he's 18 [17 to you], not 14). If this were a business deal in stocks or something he could get sued and have jail time for an equivalent situation.
Also, the issue with judging this the same as the Sen situation is there is no 'board of eSports' that has international rule. It his based on country by country. And Korea, of all places, is the most likely to punish this behavior - which Coca and Byun were fully aware of.
@ohampatu He definitely deserves it, and don't go calling him a child. That stupid "as a parent" argument is meaningless, anyone can be a parent, and it doesn't qualify you to criticise a professional organisation's handling of a 17 yr old. Coca can make his own decisions and should know better.
Esport sponsors in korea, especially SC2, are VERY sensitive to these kind of things. Corruption of any kind reflects very badly on the sponsors, ruins the spirit of competition and Koreans take it very seriously. GG'ing and leaving a won game deliberately in a money tournament is against everything Boxer and his team stands for and deserves this kind of punishment. If Coca's good enough he'll be back in Code S in a few months anyway.
On November 17 2011 11:01 Nighthawks28 wrote: If you don't want to compare it to white-ra incident.
How about when idra forfeited the rest of the games against nerchio. Or how about idra forfeiting the rest of his IPL3 group matches b/c it was just for seeding and he felt it was meaningless, even though extra money was involved. Or how about demuslim forfeiting the rest of his matches to Idra, which allowed Idra to qualify for ESWC (I know demuslim forfeited b/c his schedule conflicted with the main tournament but he still played in a qualifier and eliminated players, even though he couldn't attend but he could've read the tournament info before hand).
Forfeiting before you play the matches can not be compared to quitting a game and surrendering although you know that you won. The first can be put into bad sportmanship, which is not nice but okay, the latter is "matchfixing", which effects should be clear on eSports.
You didn't quote my entire post. How about when I mentioned when players obviously are not trying their best to win and are purposely losing for things like seeding purposes (which has happened many times)
I did not, because I already "covered" that in my first post in this thread:
People who try to defend coca by bringing in other examples (e.g. worker rushing, nuke and crazy batshit stuff etc.) should just keep in mind, that at least on the surface they kept to the tournamentrules, they simply "decided" to go with an unorthodox tactic which lost them the game. But CoCa and Byun did not even make an effort to "hide" the fact, that they were "fixing" the game. They discussed it in gamechat (which is stupid beyond any means anyway) and pretty much publicly stated: "We do not give a shit about this tournament and it's credibility, we will just mess around for a while."
It's about the credibility of a tournament and the seriousness of the participants, if they do not follow they ridicule eSports in general, which hurts chances of sponsorship etc.
The harsh punishment is partially caused by the Brood War matchfixing scandal better known to public as "the Savior incident". That scandal greatly damaged the reputation of e-sport. For a while, many people were even worried Brood War would die due to it.
The suspensions are more of a show, trying to separate SC2 scene from the Brood War scandal.
On November 17 2011 10:08 Numy wrote: Personally I feel there should be punishment but the severity of it in this case is so bigger than what happened it's rather saddening. The sAviOr feel can't be this big that people lose all sense of decency. We can't move forward if our reactions to things are always far more extreme because of a big incident. People won't want to be involved with something that is void of humanity.
I think people underestimate the sAviOr thing in Korea. Notice how the few people who will talk about it wont even mention it by name in interviews and stuff. Look at the reaction of Korean netizens when it was announced that savior was streaming some games on afreeca. I mean, the coach of KT reacted by saying that what he had done was worse than child molesting.
The matchfixing scandal was a very big deal for korean players and the reaction to something minor like this is probably excessive but not surprising.
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed.
Those aren't anything the same. The WhiteRa situation was because his opponent got a free walkover and didn't want to take games off him that they didn't actually play. He didn't lose games that he was already winning - he simply didn't feel he deserved to be up 2-0 when they never played and suicided the first two games to make it fair.
Coca blatantly admitted that he was going to quit so Byun could win, since Byun had a lot more at stake at that tournament than Coca did. If they actually played, Coca would have won and Byun would have been eliminated, fair and square.
While it might not be the same flavor of match fixing, it still is pretty damn bad if somebody has already clearly won and then purposely quits after announcing what is going on. The people at that tournament suddenly lose credibility (because people watch the matches to see who wins considering a Code A spot is on the line), and lose money because a couple guys decided to start throwing games to help each other out.
It's just something you don't do in competition. You let the game play itself out. You don't quit once you've won because there's no incentive for you to win.
On November 17 2011 11:04 ohampatu wrote: Is that KR age? Because if so 16 is no different than 14. Still a fucking child.
Birthdate: 1994, do the math.... Seriously he is not a "kid"...more a young adult
17 is a kid in my mind and I'm only 22.
Considering 17 year olds as children is kind of stretching the definition at least in my opinion. You cannot say, oh yeah we are sorry, but we are just clueless kids. I simply see no reason to deal with him differently than if he were 18 (age of maturity in most countries) since a single year does not do much of an effect anyway
On November 17 2011 11:01 Nighthawks28 wrote: If you don't want to compare it to white-ra incident.
How about when idra forfeited the rest of the games against nerchio. Or how about idra forfeiting the rest of his IPL3 group matches b/c it was just for seeding and he felt it was meaningless, even though extra money was involved. Or how about demuslim forfeiting the rest of his matches to Idra, which allowed Idra to qualify for ESWC (I know demuslim forfeited b/c his schedule conflicted with the main tournament but he still played in a qualifier and eliminated players, even though he couldn't attend but he could've read the tournament info before hand).
Forfeiting before you play the matches can not be compared to quitting a game and surrendering although you know that you won. The first can be put into bad sportmanship, which is not nice but okay, the latter is "matchfixing", which effects should be clear on eSports.
You didn't quote my entire post. How about when I mentioned when players obviously are not trying their best to win and are purposely losing for things like seeding purposes (which has happened many times)
I did not, because I already "covered" that in my first post in this thread:
People who try to defend coca by bringing in other examples (e.g. worker rushing, nuke and crazy batshit stuff etc.) should just keep in mind, that at least on the surface they kept to the tournamentrules, they simply "decided" to go with an unorthodox tactic which lost them the game. But CoCa and Byun did not even make an effort to "hide" the fact, that they were "fixing" the game. They discussed it in gamechat (which is stupid beyond any means anyway) and pretty much publicly stated: "We do not give a shit about this tournament and it's credibility, we will just mess around for a while."
It's about the credibility of a tournament and the seriousness of the participants, if they do not follow they ridicule eSports in general, which hurts chances of sponsorship etc.
Of course coca/byun did stupid stuff w/ the public chat and stuff. But I still view it very similar to other players obviously throwing matches b/c of seeding or other reasons. I'm not saying coca/byun shouldn't be punished. But they are getting punished too severe.
I personally think the coca/byun banning isn't just because of the match fixing. It's easy to tell it's pretty harmless and it's not anywhere near the level of what happened with savior. But coca and byun were retarded for blatantly telling the world that they were fixing the game IN THE CHAT LOG OF THE GAME. At least with the things like white-ra at MLG or select at NASL weren't; even though it was obvious games were thrown, at least they weren't stupid and blatantly told everyone about it and may not even count as match fixing anyway (e.g. did white-ra even know his opponent was going to lose the first 2 games on purpose?)
But since Coca and Byun told the world that they were fixing the matches, the teams had no other choice but to give out harsh punishments. Was it too harsh? I think so, but the korean culture is different and for their perspective it might be fine. I bet that if Coca wasn't so obvious no one would have called him out on it (for example if he 6pooled or went mass banelings and lost) and then if someone actually did he could make up an excuse later ("I was tired" or something). But he clearly told the world his intentions.
And if what other people in this topic said is true, that coca threw game 2 so he could have "more practice", that makes coca even stupider, as he should know that he can easily get practice with byun if he wanted to after the tournament.
Oh, and by the way, coca is 17, so while he's technically a "kid", he's still supposed to be old and mature enough to know what he did and to think his actions through. He's more a stupid adult.
On November 17 2011 11:01 Nighthawks28 wrote: If you don't want to compare it to white-ra incident.
How about when idra forfeited the rest of the games against nerchio. Or how about idra forfeiting the rest of his IPL3 group matches b/c it was just for seeding and he felt it was meaningless, even though extra money was involved. Or how about demuslim forfeiting the rest of his matches to Idra, which allowed Idra to qualify for ESWC (I know demuslim forfeited b/c his schedule conflicted with the main tournament but he still played in a qualifier and eliminated players, even though he couldn't attend but he could've read the tournament info before hand).
Forfeiting before you play the matches can not be compared to quitting a game and surrendering although you know that you won. The first can be put into bad sportmanship, which is not nice but okay, the latter is "matchfixing", which effects should be clear on eSports.
You didn't quote my entire post. How about when I mentioned when players obviously are not trying their best to win and are purposely losing for things like seeding purposes (which has happened many times)
I did not, because I already "covered" that in my first post in this thread:
People who try to defend coca by bringing in other examples (e.g. worker rushing, nuke and crazy batshit stuff etc.) should just keep in mind, that at least on the surface they kept to the tournamentrules, they simply "decided" to go with an unorthodox tactic which lost them the game. But CoCa and Byun did not even make an effort to "hide" the fact, that they were "fixing" the game. They discussed it in gamechat (which is stupid beyond any means anyway) and pretty much publicly stated: "We do not give a shit about this tournament and it's credibility, we will just mess around for a while."
It's about the credibility of a tournament and the seriousness of the participants, if they do not follow they ridicule eSports in general, which hurts chances of sponsorship etc.
Of course coca/byun did stupid stuff w/ the public chat and stuff. But I still view it very similar to other players obviously throwing matches b/c of seeding or other reasons. I'm not saying coca/byun shouldn't be punished. But they are getting punished too severe.
Is the punishment really that severe? It's by the widest stretch simply a temporary suspension from the scene. I really cannot understand all the arguments of careerruining&stuff. Did Slayers say they are dropping Coca? No, he is just gone for a while and will be back after the incident is not that fresh in the minds of the community. Same goes for Byun, their careers are not ruined in any way, yes their reputation is dented (which is totally justified in my opinion) but they will be back in some weeks.
Ultimately, it isn't up to us. The punishment was pretty big, but not only did their decision reflect badly on Esports, they were also unbelievably stupid for doing that so obviously in public. I don't think that it should be a lifetime ban, which is possible if the teams elect to do so, but punishment is definitely in order. The severity, of course, depends on how much Coca's attitude improves.
OP starts off with a personal opinion that byun and coca were children that made a trivial mistake. My personal thoughts towards that is that yes, they were irresponsible children that indeed make a mistake, however it wasn't trivial. Competing in a professional scene, no matter how small the tournament may be, means that you have to maintain a level of professionalism whilst in that scene. If they are too childish to understand how to correctly keep up the professionalism required, then they need to be taught. I think the punishment perfectly fits the crime committed because it helps set a standard. Remember when typing "pp" instead of "ppp" would get you disqualified? A lot of people thought the rule was overly strict, that it hurt the game more than it aided, however what it did was show the intensity in competing within the korean esports scene. If you aren't able to conform to the rules specified then you aren't able to show as sharp and image as needed by esports. Esports is still looked down upon by a large group of people, that starcraft has no place in being called a sport, and its incidents like coca vs byun that identify the weaknesses that allow such thoughts to exist.
If in, say, a highschool football game, two friends from different teams simply handed the ball to one another half way through the game, and it allowed one of the teams to win when they otherwise wouldn't, it would start a controversy. Sure, it's just a highschool foot ball game, but it hurts your image, and it hurts the image of the professionalism required to truly compete with others.
If people look at this from the big picture, a thread like this would not even exist. You should understand that this kind of behavior is bad for Esports as a whole. Imagine if this was to be shown on TV, and nonsense like this pops up. What would the public feel about this? IMO, it would make Esports less legit and being a progamer would not be viewed as a proper job. As one of the teams helping the growth of SCII as the next big Esports in Korea, I would not want such a thing to happen again, therefore I see the punishment of Coca justified, even lenient.
Is this another Byun/Coca thread? if so, there really isn't any need for it.
Mistakes were made and the players responsible are being punished for it. It's not like they have been completely outcasted from SC2.
I think the pusnishment is fit and sets a good example of how the Korean SC2 scene will not tolerate this kind of behaviour.
There is no point in creating anymore threads about it and arguing why you think this dilemma is OK. Players are already being dealt with and in time they will make a come back. As far as I'm concerned, if niether make a comeback.... it just goes to show there is no championship material here anyway.
I completely support how Boxer has handled this and very much shows his maturity and why he is one of the most respected players in the scene to date.
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain.
If it was matchfixing in the truest extent of the word they should have been banned from SC2 competition for life. He absolutely got a fair punishment, though. The Gimix situation was different, I think anyone can see that. These guys threw games just out of the blue, when the games actually mattered to certain players. Gimix threw matches at a personal loss, and while Coca gains nothing, his former teammate does. I think the punishments were just.
Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
I put this in the original thread, and I'll post it again.
Look at what recently happened to the Brood War scene. Look at how many great games and names were completely tarnished. SaviOr was completely demolished by his max fixing shit. I mean, that kind of shit can't be bounced back from -- it was horrible.
Despite how innocent this was, despite how overblown it was, I think it was necessary. CoCa was our sacrificial lamb, in a sense. We can't let that shit happen to this game, especially in such an early stage. If this kind of shit is going on about something this small, it gives the message that anything actually serious won't be tolerated whatsoever and will only further stunt any attempts at it.
I do think the punishment was excessive, but it had to be done to get the message across -- none of this shit should not, and will not be tolerated in this new scene.
I feel like there is an overreaction to SlayerS' overreaction. The punishment may be a bit stiff but anyone saying Coca's career is ruined is exaggerating. He will be back to competing within a couple months. SC2 is gonna be around for a long time and Coca will just look back on this as an embarrassing gaffe.
This is why GOM should only let you qualify for Code A through their own preliminary tournament(MLG is alright too). People don't throw games there because everyone is trying to get code A.
I think CoCa should be banned from ESV and gom should reevaluate how they handle code A spots.
Yeah I want to echo that it seems like some certain pro-gamers don't take this as seriously as they need to for this to become a serious business-worthy venture. I think this a very hard smack to get people's attention. Even if you can argue it's slightly harsh, it certainly doesn't become an unjust punishment
On November 17 2011 10:24 Kaxon wrote: You don't throw games in a tournament, period. If he needed more practice against Terran he should have been playing custom games with one of the million good terrans in the SlayerS house. I believe it was a dumb mistake and not intentional cheating, so they shouldn't be banned for life. But there was a GSL spot on the line, so temporarily banning them from the GSL is totally appropriate. They're lucky, they got off pretty easy.
lol you didn't think he thought about practicing with his teammates before trying to use the tournament for practice?
There was obviously a reason as to why he couldn't practice with the Slayers Terrans at that time. I doubt playing a tournament and hoping to match up vs all Terrans through it was his first choice.
I don't see this is the lifechanging consequence that the OP suggests. I find this type of thing really disheartening and it needs to be discouraged harshly.
I really think that this should be contained in the other thread.
It was handled by the decision makers in both the team and the tournament organizers. They know how serious the issue is and they are closest to the players and the situation.
Everyone has their own opinion and voicing it is fine, but we should respect that of both Slayers and the ESV Korean Weekly.
I don't see the need to discuss the topic outside of the original thread, which contained all the important information.
These players are competitors. The last thing I want to see is that the sport gets discredited because of the actions of the few like coca. If they want this to be a competition, they have to act like it's a competition. No free wins. The situation was handled correctly. He merely got a slap on the wrist mainly. Losing his tournament position is nothing compared to what has happened to other match fixers. Sure giving a free win is not that "same" --- but it has the same premise; giving illegitimate wins. It does not matter if it's for personal profit or not, it's wrong.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
On November 17 2011 11:48 red4ce wrote: I feel like there is an overreaction to SlayerS' overreaction. The punishment may be a bit stiff but anyone saying Coca's career is ruined is exaggerating. He will be back to competing within a couple months. SC2 is gonna be around for a long time and Coca will just look back on this as an embarrassing gaffe.
Agreed. This is far more annoying. The OP isn't in any position to judge whether Boxer has royally fucked up on handing out punishments until he actually owns a team of that stature in Korea.
I don't even know how this can be considered as match-fixing. Practically nothing was on the line. It's quite obvious from the games and the tone they used to chat in game that they were just screwing around. They were treating these games as practice games. I doubt any of them actually care about the prize money. If anything, they should be punished for not respecting the tournament format. I mean if they just want practice games they should not even be signing up for it and ESV should be the one taking up the responsibility to mete out the punishments.
The punishment being dealt out is just way too severe for their actions. The e-sport scene is driven by money, and if you think the actions by coca and byun in this small tournament with small prize money can potentially kill e-sports or by 'disrespecting' the fans, you are just being retarded. Fans just treat this tourny like showmatches as a means to see more games from korean players, not to see who actually win it in the end. The winner of the tourny might not even be the best player, as the best players will choose not to reveal their strats when there is another tourny worth 40k+ on the line. I think the ones complaining didn't even watch the games. If you even bother to read the LR thread, you can see that the viewers actually enjoyed the fact that they were screwing around. Some might be perplexed at coca gg-ing, but i think none were actually angry about it.
If the slayers team are purposely dealing out their own internal punishments to prevent further public backlash from the netizens (koreans are too sensitive with anything linked to match-fixing after the savior incident) so as to protect coca, then i can understand. But if they are punishing coca just because their reputation is on the line, then well.. i am just disappointed.
I think the punishment is fair, for Coca. Byun seems to be off lightly since, well he didn't have a Code A spot and I haven't heard/read GSL has enacted any additional punishment.
The ESV is for a Code A spot as well. This affects every other pro-gamer in Korea attempting to qualify for that tournament by giving cheating to give Byun an edge. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered in the end, but it could have. This wasn't performed in a vacuum and it did have potential consequence for who competed in GSL as well. Burn them with fire.
I feel that he should not have dropped code S, he is 17 ffs. We all have made stupid mistakes and this is his career we r talking about I dont think it should be destroyed for one incident.
On November 17 2011 12:14 Son of Gnome wrote: I feel that he should not have dropped code S, he is 17 ffs. We all have made stupid mistakes and this is his career we r talking about I dont think it should be destroyed for one incident.
He has the option to re-build, mature and grow up. Since this is a game of skill, and he stays ontop of that, there is nothing that limits his success. All punishments in my opinion are fine for coca, jessica is a hard girl that wont let him get off easy without changing that mindset.
Wheres byuns punishment?
On November 17 2011 12:06 babysimba wrote: The winner of the tourny might not even be the best player, as the best players will choose not to reveal their strats when there is another tourny worth 40k+ on the line.
There is a Code A spot on the line, most competitors in this tournament would see this as unfair if they are fighting for that spot? Its like, coca has nothing to lose, byun has everything to gain, and the competitors are shafted..
What people seem to forget is that koreans treat e sports way more seriously than us foreigners. They struggled for a long time to make people accept e sports as a legit competition. They went from teams giving a modest salary(or hell, even sometimes just food and accomodations if Boxer biography is something I can base myself) to teams giving 6 figure salaries to their superstars, sponsored by major corporations.
For them this is a high level competition where it can be expected that both players are giving all their effort, to just ignore this kind of stuff(small or big tournament those 2 players showed little respect for the competition) would be basically going a step back. I know even in other sports this kind of stuff can happen, the difference is that they don't do it shamelessly on the open(and that makes a lot of difference)
tl;dr
koreans:"We want the players to treat this as a competition where they will always give it all, no matter if small or big"
And guess what? SlayerS and the korean teams have the korean fans to respond to.
Was the punishment harsh? maybe Did they deserve punishment? Yes according to them, hell some netizens(according to the translations) thought it was not enough.
To us this may just be a game, for them its a competition. I am not asking anybody to respect the decision, but at least try to understand it. E sports in Korea was grown from zero to what it is right now, and that took a lot of effort blood sweat and tears to accomplish, at least respect that.
What if Byun after potentially winning the 3rd game, gg out too, would this be considered match fixing? If Savior's case didn't happen, would this incident even be brought up? It seems to me people (including koreans) are unconsciously re-directing their hate of savior and fear of letting that happen again towards coca and byun. They should isolate and look at these incidents separately before dealing out the punishment. They definitely deserve punishment but not at this extent.
It doesn't make sense that Byun is getting a lesser punishment than Coca. Prime needs to be harder on him. The punishments are imba since technically Byun did the most wrong.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Clefairy wrote: It doesn't make sense that Byun is getting a lesser punishment than Coca. Prime needs to be harder on him. The punishments are imba.
Byun is not qualified in the GSL. Coca was forced by SlayerS to withdraw (technically this is a voluntary withdrawal from the GSL). Both are temporarily banned from ESV. You are horribly misinformed and there is no 'lesser' punishment.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Clefairy wrote: It doesn't make sense that Byun is getting a lesser punishment than Coca. Prime needs to be harder on him. The punishments are imba since technically Byun did the most wrong.
I don't know, technically Coca committed the crime and not Byun. He only asked for the win. Coca could have just said no and went on the win and there would be no controversy. I do think Prime should say something (or maybe they have and OPs haven't been updated).
As for people who think this was fine. Would this be acceptable in Golf or Tennis? Do you think those sports would just shrug it off? Probably burn them with fire.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Clefairy wrote: It doesn't make sense that Byun is getting a lesser punishment than Coca. Prime needs to be harder on him. The punishments are imba.
Byun is not qualified in the GSL. Coca was forced by SlayerS to withdraw (technically this is a voluntary withdrawal from the GSL). Both are temporarily banned from ESV. You are horribly misinformed and there is no 'lesser' punishment.
Coca lost his Code S spot and got kicked out of the SlayerS house. Byun is still in the Prime house and didn't lose any spot. Both are banned from tournaments for a while. Imba.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Clefairy wrote: It doesn't make sense that Byun is getting a lesser punishment than Coca. Prime needs to be harder on him. The punishments are imba since technically Byun did the most wrong.
I don't know, technically Coca committed the crime and not Byun. He only asked for the win. Coca could have just said no and went on the win and there would be no controversy. I do think Prime should say something (or maybe they have and OPs haven't been updated).
can a mod please lock this? we do not need another thread about this. this has been discussed to death already in the other thread. the poll is pointless
IMO the BIGGEST question here not being asked (that i saw, didnt read through the whole thread) is
MOTIVATION or coca's reason for "match fixing"
he had nothing to gain from this. this has be thought of when comparing this to savior. savior made money off of his match fixing. if coca made any money, it would be out of byun's pocket, which wouldnt be much probably.
savior did it for personal gain coca was helping a friend.
its two completely separate issues. he shouldnt be punished too severely
On November 17 2011 12:29 Clefairy wrote: It doesn't make sense that Byun is getting a lesser punishment than Coca. Prime needs to be harder on him. The punishments are imba.
Byun is not qualified in the GSL. Coca was forced by SlayerS to withdraw (technically this is a voluntary withdrawal from the GSL). Both are temporarily banned from ESV. You are horribly misinformed and there is no 'lesser' punishment.
Coca lost his Code S spot and got kicked out of the SlayerS house. Byun is still in the Prime house and didn't lose any spot. Both are banned from tournaments for a while. Imba.
wasn't it Prime and Slayers decision to ban them from competitive play? It was a team decision to prevent them from competing, I don't see what the big deal is.
On November 17 2011 12:21 windsupernova wrote: Why make another thread for this?
What people seem to forget is that koreans treat e sports way more seriously than us foreigners. They struggled for a long time to make people accept e sports as a legit competition. They went from teams giving a modest salary(or hell, even sometimes just food and accomodations if Boxer biography is something I can base myself) to teams giving 6 figure salaries to their superstars, sponsored by major corporations.
For them this is a high level competition where it can be expected that both players are giving all their effort, to just ignore this kind of stuff(small or big tournament those 2 players showed little respect for the competition) would be basically going a step back. I know even in other sports this kind of stuff can happen, the difference is that they don't do it shamelessly on the open(and that makes a lot of difference)
tl;dr
koreans:"We want the players to treat this as a competition where they will always give it all, no matter if small or big"
And guess what? SlayerS and the korean teams have the korean fans to respond to.
Was the punishment harsh? maybe Did they deserve punishment? Yes according to them, hell some netizens(according to the translations) thought it was not enough.
To us this may just be a game, for them its a competition. I am not asking anybody to respect the decision, but at least try to understand it. E sports in Korea was grown from zero to what it is right now, and that took a lot of effort blood sweat and tears to accomplish, at least respect that.
This is pretty much bullshit. Koreans have repeatedly thrown games in WCG for BW to avoid playing each other and there have been several incidents were players have thrown games in other competitions.
Basically every year in WCG the koreans threw games. Just do some research.
Also, maybe this is a new trend because of what happened with savior........but realistically rigging shit has happened before. I remember one of the korean TV stations that had a War3 league rigged maps without telling the players to help "balance" the game as they saw it.
I imagine its been said before, but I do think it was full retard to make Coca pull out of this GSL. Its messed up the event a bit to be honest, giving free wins to people. If slayers wanted him to remove himself from the event they could have atleast let him do this one for GSLs sake if nothing else
On November 17 2011 12:40 courtpanda wrote: IMO the BIGGEST question here not being asked (that i saw, didnt read through the whole thread) is
MOTIVATION or coca's reason for "match fixing"
he had nothing to gain from this. this has be thought of when comparing this to savior. savior made money off of his match fixing. if coca made any money, it would be out of byun's pocket, which wouldnt be much probably.
savior did it for personal gain coca was helping a friend.
its two completely separate issues. he shouldnt be punished too severely
Where do you draw the line though? Who said that this isn't an elaborate plot they set up before the game in an email where if Byun happens to get 2-0 he'll pretend to beg and coca would throw the game?
I agree with you, and I think everyone else agrees with you and feel bad for Coca because he didn't seem to have a malicious intent. I also understand that Boxer/Jessica/GSL is coming from a professional stand point, and they are emphasizing the fact that NOTHING of this sort will be tolerated, because, you know, it's a fucking professional scene. I agree it's unfair for the player, but I think he was the example that needed to be set, and we should all take this as a lesson and move on.
On November 17 2011 12:21 windsupernova wrote: Why make another thread for this?
What people seem to forget is that koreans treat e sports way more seriously than us foreigners. They struggled for a long time to make people accept e sports as a legit competition. They went from teams giving a modest salary(or hell, even sometimes just food and accomodations if Boxer biography is something I can base myself) to teams giving 6 figure salaries to their superstars, sponsored by major corporations.
For them this is a high level competition where it can be expected that both players are giving all their effort, to just ignore this kind of stuff(small or big tournament those 2 players showed little respect for the competition) would be basically going a step back. I know even in other sports this kind of stuff can happen, the difference is that they don't do it shamelessly on the open(and that makes a lot of difference)
tl;dr
koreans:"We want the players to treat this as a competition where they will always give it all, no matter if small or big"
And guess what? SlayerS and the korean teams have the korean fans to respond to.
Was the punishment harsh? maybe Did they deserve punishment? Yes according to them, hell some netizens(according to the translations) thought it was not enough.
To us this may just be a game, for them its a competition. I am not asking anybody to respect the decision, but at least try to understand it. E sports in Korea was grown from zero to what it is right now, and that took a lot of effort blood sweat and tears to accomplish, at least respect that.
This is pretty much bullshit. Koreans have repeatedly thrown games in WCG for BW to avoid playing each other and there have been several incidents were players have thrown games in other competitions.
Basically every year in WCG the koreans threw games. Just do some research.
Also, maybe this is a new trend because of what happened with savior........but realistically rigging shit has happened before. I remember one of the korean TV stations that had a War3 league rigged maps without telling the players to help "balance" the game as they saw it.
I know, but they don't do it blatantly on the open. That makes all the difference in the world. I am sure players from many sports do stuff like this, the thing is that they don't go and shamelessly do it in the open.
While it may be the same "crime" the fact that they did it so shamelessly gives out such a terrible message of "I don't care about this competition".
come on man, I even mentioned it on my post that what made the difference was that they did it shamelessly on camera.
About the W3 maps thing. I can't comment on that. But W3 never got a prestigious status in korea.
E: And of course the Savior incident has a lot to do with this. He made such a mess of a scene that a lot of people worked on because of his selfish actions.
On November 17 2011 12:21 windsupernova wrote: Why make another thread for this?
What people seem to forget is that koreans treat e sports way more seriously than us foreigners. They struggled for a long time to make people accept e sports as a legit competition. They went from teams giving a modest salary(or hell, even sometimes just food and accomodations if Boxer biography is something I can base myself) to teams giving 6 figure salaries to their superstars, sponsored by major corporations.
For them this is a high level competition where it can be expected that both players are giving all their effort, to just ignore this kind of stuff(small or big tournament those 2 players showed little respect for the competition) would be basically going a step back. I know even in other sports this kind of stuff can happen, the difference is that they don't do it shamelessly on the open(and that makes a lot of difference)
tl;dr
koreans:"We want the players to treat this as a competition where they will always give it all, no matter if small or big"
And guess what? SlayerS and the korean teams have the korean fans to respond to.
Was the punishment harsh? maybe Did they deserve punishment? Yes according to them, hell some netizens(according to the translations) thought it was not enough.
To us this may just be a game, for them its a competition. I am not asking anybody to respect the decision, but at least try to understand it. E sports in Korea was grown from zero to what it is right now, and that took a lot of effort blood sweat and tears to accomplish, at least respect that.
This is pretty much bullshit. Koreans have repeatedly thrown games in WCG for BW to avoid playing each other and there have been several incidents were players have thrown games in other competitions.
Basically every year in WCG the koreans threw games. Just do some research.
Also, maybe this is a new trend because of what happened with savior........but realistically rigging shit has happened before. I remember one of the korean TV stations that had a War3 league rigged maps without telling the players to help "balance" the game as they saw it.
To be fair, that was also the start of a really harsh fall for the Korean war3 scene. There's a reason that newer War3 fans barely know the Korean scene existed.
That said, I personally believe that no, he did not 1:1 deserve what he got, but I think it's integral for the integrity of the sport that we show zero tolerance for things such as this. Removing him from the house is REALLY harsh, but if nothing else, it's a strong deterrent for other players plotting such things. (Or at least it should be. Id've thought the BW scandal would've gotten it through people's heads that it's serious business)
The OP is probably the worst and uninformed opinion I have ever heard.
This is competitive professional sports. If we think Starcraft 2 is going to lead the way in professional gaming, then both players should probably be practically banned from SC2! Okay, that's probably too harsh, but I do think the penalty was justified, and I could have imagined even more of a penalty.
First of all, ESTV is NOT at ALL meaningless! It's for a spot in the GSL. Those are very high stakes, especially for the number of other players who were trying to compete to win that weekly.
Second, whether or not it is match fixing is just semantics. The point is that the player openly admitted to not at all playing the game, and in fact, seemed to imply that he would deliberately lose (not just lose game 2 but also game 3). If you just leave a game and throw it, how can we be sure that you won't throw game 3? In other words, there's NO check at ALL to players throwing or fixing matches. There's just no way we can tell--a player could just decide before hand what is going to happen in the match. That's in part why this is such a serious offense! Sports players DO NOT joke about match fixing or throwing games... they understand how serious the situation is. I think we need this kind of culture/ethos in esports if this activity is EVER going to be taken seriously!
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
Lol epic fail. Not by VPCursed but by you. Firstly Cursed isnt on a team and currently isn't a Progamer. Secondly that shows you know very little about Sc2 Progaming at all. Thirdly you not holding a 120k tournament doesnt mean thats -120k out of esports. Entities are going to spend that much money on Esports without you and for the better too since you know nothing at all.
On November 17 2011 12:58 asaed wrote: The OP is probably the worst and uninformed opinion I have ever heard.
This is competitive professional sports. If we think Starcraft 2 is going to lead the way in professional gaming, then both players should probably be practically banned from SC2! Okay, that's probably too harsh, but I do think the penalty was justified, and I could have imagined even more of a penalty.
First of all, ESTV is NOT at ALL meaningless! It's for a spot in the GSL. Those are very high stakes, especially for the number of other players who were trying to compete to win that weekly.
Second, whether or not it is match fixing is just semantics. The point is that the player openly admitted to not at all playing the game, and in fact, seemed to imply that he would deliberately lose (not just lose game 2 but also game 3). If you just leave a game and throw it, how can we be sure that you won't throw game 3? In other words, there's NO check at ALL to players throwing or fixing matches. There's just no way we can tell--a player could just decide before hand what is going to happen in the match. That's in part why this is such a serious offense! Sports players DO NOT joke about match fixing or throwing games... they understand how serious the situation is. I think we need this kind of culture/ethos in esports if this activity is EVER going to be taken seriously!
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
yea well I was going to plan one for a cool milli and now cuz of your post i won't anymore...
On the other hand this is the most ridiculous e-drama. there is a huge difference between match fixing and forfeiting, coca forfeited savior match fixed. Savior's incident was involving esports gambling and he was intentionally throwing matches for huge sums of cash. Coca forfeited a game because he didnt really care if he won or lost. Now he isn't in Code S and he's kicked out of slayers? this a huge overreaction and a prime example (seewhatididthere of how mobs can get carried away. This wasn't justice it was a witch hunt. Coca wants to go to game 3? i doesnt make a lot of sense but who gives a damn. Where was this anger when nestea obviously threw his game at blizzcon? What if he worker rushed byun would we be standing here having this conversation now.
I understand ESV's point of view that you don't want players participatinng who aren't going to play and suspending coca and byun from ESV is very fair if only for the message "hey we are a real tournament and we expect all particpants to take our event seriously and proffesionally" I also understand concerns of profane language on chat, Its public and televised you shouldn't be using foul language in such a manner. But comparing this to savior who participated in real match fixing is pure defamation. Now if some bit of information were to come out that coca accepted a bribe to lose the match that changes it, however there is as of right now no evidence to suggest that.
'Match fixing' by a player denotes one thing: deciding the result of the match by means other than properly playing it [including pre-determining the result before the match, and deciding to do it during the match, like this incident].
'Match-fixing' however also connotes and suggests evil and corrupt motives.
Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to separate the two ideas in the minds of people.
Many people are also taking the whole thing too literally; "They fixed result; fixing result = match-fixing; match-fixing = they should DIE" (without taking differing situation of match-fixing into account]
BTW, the option in the poll to make them burn was too tempting to not choose.
On November 17 2011 10:24 Flamingo777 wrote: I used to be part of the Super Smash Brothers fighting game community, and used to participate, and do well in tournaments where money would be on the line. Sometimes thousands of dollars would be on the line in major tournaments. There has always been debate on match splitting (Where the top two placing competitors can agree to split the combined 1st and 2nd prize, and simply play an exhibition match to settle the official placements if the players are tired, or the venue needs to shut down, etc.
I remember when splitting the pot was super common in SSBM
Can you imagine if something similar had happened in Football? Either kind, or Hockey for the Canadians? There would have been riots at the very least. And likely lifetime bans from the sport for all involved. The validity of the competition can't be cast into doubt, or the whole thing falls apart. I hope Coca is able to recover from what appears to be basically a bonehead honest mistake. But a professional should understand their position better.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
What, is this guy trolling? If you were seriously someone looking to associate your company with the community, you wouldn't get involved with these types of threads. It's very unprofessional.
However, if your serious. This is actually a loss since nothing big ever happens on the SEA server..... like ever....
While I do think the punishment was a lot for such a small thing, I almost think the punishment was more just to show to others that this is not something to be taken lightly. Just as in any sport, even something small has to been dealt with harshly just to get the point across that this is not a place where you can fuck around and feel that nothing will happen.
Openly forfeiting a match is not the same as match fixing. There wasn't any personal gain received in exchanged for losing. There wasn't any attempt to deceive the audience or tournament organizers. Coca wasn't even under any obligation to play the match; he could have simply said he was too busy to play and Byun would have received a walkover, as is very common in tournaments like this one. Nobody would have been facing any punishment in that case, and rightfully so.
What Coca did wrong was a matter of form, not substance. It's okay to forfeit a match in a tournament (provided that you haven't made a commitment to the tournament organizers to play regardless of your convenience), but the way to do it is not to play the match and decide, after having won, to leave the game. Nor should ESV TV have apparently found out about Coca's decision to forfeit by seeing him leave a game he was winning during their broadcast. For his poor handling of the situation, he should at the very least face some kind of formal reprimand, and I don't blame ESV TV at all if they want to ban him from their tournament for a while. However, the penalties Coca is facing beyond that strike me as disproportionate to his wrongdoing. I don't think they're outrageous, but I don't think they're appropriate, either.
while it was probably not planned match fixing, its too similar to treat it like nothing. if tournament games arent 100% about the best person winning it makes it less of a sport and less interesting overall.
while the punishment seems slightly harsh, i dont wanna see any players in code s who dont try their hardest to win.
Definitely not handled correctly. Too harsh. Too bad for him slayers cares far more about protecting their image/reputation than his silly life/career.
Are you kidding me? This is trivial? So what about the Code S spot that is on the line? Of course its match fixing when there is Code S spot on the line.
Its stupid and immature and should be punished, otherwise what stops things like Savior match fixing in proleague?
i think its up to slayers to decide what is best... i personally feel its a little harsh but i dont know anything about how good a team member he was. also slayers is trying to make the best players and im sure there are tons of players that would just love to be on team slayers that play by the rules... feel bad though
He's losing several thousands of dollars in income. We don't even know if he'll be able to get entirely back into Code S, and from this season alone is losing out on $1850+ dollars (top 16 Code S get this) guaranteed.
That's pretty fucking stupid for something that really did not affect him nor the matches much at all. Hell, Byun got knocked out by Creator the following round, and CoCa had nothing to gain by playing more anyways.
On November 17 2011 13:58 TheBomb wrote: Are you kidding me? This is trivial? So what about the Code S spot that is on the line? Of course its match fixing when there is Code S spot on the line.
Its stupid and immature and should be punished, otherwise what stops things like Savior match fixing in proleague?
It was a Code A spot, and it was only a QUALIFIER, and Byun still got knocked out by CreatorPrime.
On November 17 2011 13:58 TheBomb wrote: Are you kidding me? This is trivial? So what about the Code S spot that is on the line? Of course its match fixing when there is Code S spot on the line.
Its stupid and immature and should be punished, otherwise what stops things like Savior match fixing in proleague?
LOL.
Dont post stupid shit when you have no fucking clue whats going on.
I think SlayerS, ESVW and GOMTV all did the appropirate thing. They don't need to be harsher because they are putting the hurt on Coca and Byun's pocket book aswell.
Without a true regulatory body there is no proper correct punishment possible. Thus a combination of GSL, SlayerS and ESV punishment makes the most sense.
I still view this as a minor mistake on the grand scale of potential wrongs a player can commit.
At the end of the day i feel it was harsh, but any less and you're asking multiple bodies to punish differently. It doesn't work, so what we got is the best we're going get under this regime so i'm fine with it. SC2 is still in the stone age on things like this.
On November 17 2011 13:58 TheBomb wrote: Are you kidding me? This is trivial? So what about the Code S spot that is on the line? Of course its match fixing when there is Code S spot on the line.
Its stupid and immature and should be punished, otherwise what stops things like Savior match fixing in proleague?
LOL.
Dont post stupid shit when you have no fucking clue whats going on.
either he doesnt know what the savior scandal was or he is too stupid to make the obvious distinction between this and savior either way he has no business posting on this topic
the incident hurts slayers, coca and byun. now the direct punishment on coca was arguably too hard for what it did to him. however you're fucking over your teams reputation hard by doing that. they raised you, made you a good player. slayers dished out punishment that they saw fit. honestly if coca was teamless and he did that he might have been suspended for a while, that's it. slayers in essesnce forced him to relinquish his code s spot for the sake of their team. some argue that reputation isn't as important as coca's career, that's up to you. but just know that this incident hurts slayers credibility and they can't let that happen.
On November 17 2011 14:04 shawster wrote: you guys are looking at it from the wrong angle
the incident hurts slayers, coca and byun. now the direct punishment on coca was arguably too hard for what it did to him. however you're fucking over your teams reputation hard by doing that. they raised you, made you a good player. slayers dished out punishment that they saw fit. honestly if coca was teamless and he did that he might have been suspended for a while, that's it. slayers in essesnce forced him to relinquish his code s spot for the sake of their team. some argue that reputation isn't as important as coca's career, that's up to you. but just know that this incident hurts slayers credibility and they can't let that happen.
CoCa was already a good player before joining SlayerS.
Good that there punished for doing this in a real tournament (regardless of size/prestige) but I think that they laid the hammer down a bit too strong, since there just kids. What happened with WhiteRa was a bit different though and it wasn't something everyone was watching, if it had been on the main stage or on screen people would have possibly been a bit peeved by it. Who knows...
This is trash, Coca has worked his ass off and is the best zerg player in the world(yea he's better than Nestea). he should get a $5 fine and be done with it so he can win gsl.
punishment too harsh(but really depends on how they handle it, demotion to team b and out of the house only tell half the story) but it is absolutely ridiculous to defend him as so many of you guys are doing with: "more practice. its done all the time. he was only trying to help a friend. it was only a mistake. tournament didnt matter much, etc." its nothing but pitiful excuses.
my korean family does not take excuses. what is done is done, take responsibility for it and do what needs to be done.
maybe the punishment is too harsh but man up, go through it and come back stronger. this is what boxer wants i'm sure and that is why such harsh punishment was put down. (if he does breakdown, it only shows his weakness. if coca is indeed a character that would take this negatively and think of leaving the team, he definitely does not belong with slayers)
Overkill is overkill. Whatever SlayerS does to him it's their buisness true, but I still think not letting him continuing in Code S is a little too much. Not like it's so easy to get into code S, might as well let Coca finish the season at least? Why throw away a chance that a SlayerS might get another GSL trophy? Geez...
TBH i don't see the point in threads like this, If you were the manager of a team, and something like this happened there would have to be consequences. Obviously in korea they take the game very seriously and have imposed this punishment. Westerners probably would of done like a slap on the wrist kinda thing. Where as SlayerS_Jessica and BoxeR being a newer team, want people to take them serriously. Does this mean CoCa will never come back? Probably not... CoCa will probably be back in the team house by January and will be allowed to participate in tourneys.
I don't see a problem with how this was dealed with. If I managed a team I would of suspended the player from tourneys as well. People learn from their mistakes and I think CoCa learned a big lesson during ESV.
On November 17 2011 14:04 shawster wrote: you guys are looking at it from the wrong angle
the incident hurts slayers, coca and byun. now the direct punishment on coca was arguably too hard for what it did to him. however you're fucking over your teams reputation hard by doing that. they raised you, made you a good player. slayers dished out punishment that they saw fit. honestly if coca was teamless and he did that he might have been suspended for a while, that's it. slayers in essesnce forced him to relinquish his code s spot for the sake of their team. some argue that reputation isn't as important as coca's career, that's up to you. but just know that this incident hurts slayers credibility and they can't let that happen.
CoCa was already a good player before joining SlayerS.
And relatively new to SlayerS, actually. Which became part of the problem. If he was a seasoned member, and they knew him very well, they would have been able to handle this better.
On November 17 2011 14:40 Xenorawks wrote: Overkill is overkill. Whatever SlayerS does to him it's their buisness true, but I still think not letting him continuing in Code S is a little too much. Not like it's so easy to get into code S, might as well let Coca finish the season at least? Why throw away a chance that a SlayerS might get another GSL trophy? Geez...
On November 17 2011 14:40 Xenorawks wrote: Overkill is overkill. Whatever SlayerS does to him it's their buisness true, but I still think not letting him continuing in Code S is a little too much. Not like it's so easy to get into code S, might as well let Coca finish the season at least? Why throw away a chance that a SlayerS might get another GSL trophy? Geez...
because sometimes, honor matters more than glory.
completely agree!
Westerners don't take the game as seriously, sure some of them do, but most teams I don't think have the mentality to run teams like koreans do.
Yes, hurting your teams image is pretty much like spitting in the face of your manager, its a disgrace. People shouldn't be worried considering its also a different society.
Definately. Match fixing cannot be proven easily but if it is proven you cannot ignore it. Think about it. Many korean players that are in the same team could help each other so that code a or code b player get the code a or code s seeds. This kind of behavior cannot be tolerated as it destroys the very spirit of competition. Tolerating this kind of behavior would open players that are more sly the opportunity to use matchfixing for money making (like savior). I believe Coca and Byun should be prohibited to participate in any event for at least a year.
On November 17 2011 14:55 farnham wrote: Definately. Match fixing cannot be proven easily but if it is proven you cannot ignore it. Think about it. Many korean players that are in the same team could help each other so that code a or code b player get the code a or code s seeds. This kind of behavior cannot be tolerated as it destroys the very spirit of competition. Tolerating this kind of behavior would open players that are more sly the opportunity to use matchfixing for money making (like savior). I believe Coca and Byun should be prohibited to participate in any event for at least a year.
You realize that would completely ruin their lives. They don't make enough money, they'd pretty much have to quit sc2 and and go to school or get a job. One in game non the fly random mistake because they weren't really thinking of it as a real event and ruin their lives? They train like 12 hours a day and dedicate their lives to sc2, you ban them for a year, they can't guarantee to still be competitive then and be able to sustain themselves, they'd have to quit. Honestly a year from now, Nestea will probably be out of the competitive scene and jaedong will be crushing everybody.
On November 17 2011 14:55 farnham wrote: Definately. Match fixing cannot be proven easily but if it is proven you cannot ignore it. Think about it. Many korean players that are in the same team could help each other so that code a or code b player get the code a or code s seeds. This kind of behavior cannot be tolerated as it destroys the very spirit of competition. Tolerating this kind of behavior would open players that are more sly the opportunity to use matchfixing for money making (like savior). I believe Coca and Byun should be prohibited to participate in any event for at least a year.
You realize that would completely ruin their lives. They don't make enough money, they'd pretty much have to quit sc2 and and go to school or get a job. One in game non the fly random mistake because they weren't really thinking of it as a real event and ruin their lives? They train like 12 hours a day and dedicate their lives to sc2, you ban them for a year, they can't guarantee to still be competitive then and be able to sustain themselves, they'd have to quit.
they have plenty of other ways to live their lives. however competing in a tournament after matchfixing is just not acceptable for anyone in the scene that earned their spot through honest means.
On November 17 2011 15:00 Zerguru wrote: Honestly a year from now, Nestea will probably be out of the competitive scene and jaedong will be crushing everybody.
1. i doubt it. jaedong will probably still play scbw 2. what does this have to do with anything about slayers coca
On November 17 2011 14:55 farnham wrote: Definately. Match fixing cannot be proven easily but if it is proven you cannot ignore it. Think about it. Many korean players that are in the same team could help each other so that code a or code b player get the code a or code s seeds. This kind of behavior cannot be tolerated as it destroys the very spirit of competition. Tolerating this kind of behavior would open players that are more sly the opportunity to use matchfixing for money making (like savior). I believe Coca and Byun should be prohibited to participate in any event for at least a year.
You realize that would completely ruin their lives. They don't make enough money, they'd pretty much have to quit sc2 and and go to school or get a job. One in game non the fly random mistake because they weren't really thinking of it as a real event and ruin their lives? They train like 12 hours a day and dedicate their lives to sc2, you ban them for a year, they can't guarantee to still be competitive then and be able to sustain themselves, they'd have to quit. Honestly a year from now, Nestea will probably be out of the competitive scene and jaedong will be crushing everybody.
They aren't banned for a year. They are banned from playing until deemed fit to resume, whenever that is.
Guess being a progamer isn't cut out for just about anyone. Surprise!
I definitely agree this is not match fixing, but it was byun that asked for the 3rd game. From your POV Coca wanted a third game for practice!? Um.. What!?! He's advancing to the next round, boom more "practice". After he wins the series him and Byun can go practice all they want.
Also, The White-Ra incident was nothing like this. IIRC, in that case White-Ra was late to his first game (there may have been a good reason, but i forget) so his opponent was given the walkover for game 1. Up 1 game in the series but wanting a straight up series against White-Ra his opponent lost/gave up game 2, and they played straight up in game 3. The guy wanted White-Ra to have the same chance at winning the series for the sake of sportsmanship. White-Ra didn't ask him to, he did it for the sake of a fair series.
So where exactly is the correlation to this case where Byun, who lost game 1 straight up, and is about to lose game 2 straight up, asks his friend to quit so they can play a third match? Everything was fair and even from the get go, nothing warranted Coca taking this action.
As long as i understood the punishment correctly and it only lasts till the end of the year and he is then given a fair chance to start over again then i see no problems.
On November 17 2011 14:40 Xenorawks wrote: Overkill is overkill. Whatever SlayerS does to him it's their buisness true, but I still think not letting him continuing in Code S is a little too much. Not like it's so easy to get into code S, might as well let Coca finish the season at least? Why throw away a chance that a SlayerS might get another GSL trophy? Geez...
because sometimes, honor matters more than glory.
May be it should, but I don't think it does. If Coca would have won this GSL, no one would talk about the game against Byun anymore. He had to be punished, because they talked about it in the replay imho. If they just talked over Skype and not SC2, so none can see it, it would have been no problem.
On November 17 2011 15:13 Spacekyod wrote: Coca wanted a third game for practice!? Um.. What!?! He's advancing to the next round, boom more "practice".
Next round is Protoss. Coca plays all-Terran group in the GSL. Byun is Terran. Coca said in chat he only plays this to practice vs Terran, because all his Terran teammates were busy at another event.
On November 17 2011 15:13 Spacekyod wrote: I definitely agree this is not match fixing, but it was byun that asked for the 3rd game. From your POV Coca wanted a third game for practice!? Um.. What!?! He's advancing to the next round, boom more "practice". After he wins the series him and Byun can go practice all they want.
Also, The White-Ra incident was nothing like this. IIRC, in that case White-Ra was late to his first game (there may have been a good reason, but i forget) so his opponent was given the walkover for game 1. Up 1 game in the series but wanting a straight up series against White-Ra his opponent lost/gave up game 2, and they played straight up in game 3. The guy wanted White-Ra to have the same chance at winning the series for the sake of sportsmanship. White-Ra didn't ask him to, he did it for the sake of a fair series.
So where exactly is the correlation to this case where Byun, who lost game 1 straight up, and is about to lose game 2 straight up, asks his friend to quit so they can play a third match? Everything was fair and even from the get go, nothing warranted Coca taking this action.
As long as i understood the punishment correctly and it only lasts till the end of the year and he is then given a fair chance to start over again then i see no problems.
Not quite on the white-ra case. Whitera was dq'd 2-0, then ran into the same player in the loser's bracket. Due to MLG's extended series rule, he started a bo7 down 0-2 against his opponent. A lot of players argue against the validity of the extended series rule, and in this case, the two players had never actually played in the first place. Throwing the games was a form of resetting a bo3 and defying the extended series advantage that was given as a technicality.
Similar cases, but there are some distinctions to be drawn, specifically with the nature of the extended series rule advantaging one player after a dq.
GOM didn't kick him out. If he wanted to remain a part of the SlayerS team he had to forfeit his Code S spot and he did.
If SlayerS would have done nothing against Coca that would have reflected on them poorly. Even though this might seem harsh it could have been a lot worse.
So, if I think the completely reasonable punishment he received was completely fair, I'm not supposed to answer the poll "What punishment should he receive?" right? It's just that I don't see the option "He got what he deserved."
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
Because the teams are not their parents, and because we are discussing how wrong it is.
thats right, the teams are their 'employer' which they sign a contract with
if Coca doesnt like the punishment than he can easily left SlayerS but the fact that he didnt meant that he knows that he cocked up and deserve the punishment given
On November 17 2011 14:47 GreEny K wrote: You mentioned something similar happening with White-Ra, what was that all about? I didn't hear anything about that.
I believe he was referring to the Gimix incident where ePgimix dropped 2 sets to WhiteRa in an MLG in order to make it a best of 3 instead of him having a 2-0 lead due to the extended series rule.
This is really stupid. Why couldn't coca have just not sent in the replays and forfeited. Then we wouldn't have deal with this silly herp derp match-fixing for a code A spot that doesn't exist.
Yeah....you have to take into account the different culture of Korea. They're all about honor, yo. And in a game like Starcraft, which as been a big thing for years, the honor of it all is in playing the game as straight up and intensely as you can. Give it your all, because anything else isn't good enough. Throwing a game isn't doing that. In fact, it's offering up a false result to unfairly help out a friend. That's completely dishonest. And dishonest = dishonorable.
Also, I think part of this reaction from GOM and Slayers has to do with the matchfixing scandal from a while ago. There was a huge blowup with that, with many players being fined and (if I remember correctly) some even receiving jail time. If there's one way to kill SC2 in Korea before it even gets started, and the reputation of Slayers as a team, it's to start another one of those scandals before the game is even two years old.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
What, is this guy trolling? If you were seriously someone looking to associate your company with the community, you wouldn't get involved with these types of threads. It's very unprofessional.
However, if your serious. This is actually a loss since nothing big ever happens on the SEA server..... like ever....
lol.
My sole reason for involving myself in these threads is to steer the community in a direction that is palatable to the general public. My posts reflect that. When a member of VP Gamers goes on a thread such as this one to tell a potential organiser he is not welcome in addition to the responses in the poll results of both this and the "SlayerSCoca forfeits Code S" thread, it is not possible in this climate to organise an event of the caliber I was planning.
To seek corporate sponsorship for an event that may be thrown by the participants colluding among themselves to split the prize money when stakeholders expect otherwise is wrong. The perception of "How can playing computer games be a sport?" is changed because of the argument, "Because they practice long and hard to give their best every game regardless of the prize or opponent."
How am I to answer my sponsors when they see SlayerSCoca's chat: "I'll let you win."? Say he's just a kid? That's he's just practicing? That it is good he's doing it openly? It is only match fixing if he planned it before the start of the event/no money was involved? The prize is too small to play seriously? (Some of the arguments posted)
Let us not forget also, the recent PPSL fiasco.
But as long as the community puts the needs of the player above the sport (eSports), I cannot see myself producing an event at this present time given the current conditions.
I don't think Coca deserved what he got, however I do think that he should be banned from ESV for a certain time and take any disciplinary measures coming from his team. And as far as I understood, the whole Code S think was mainly because of his team.
I really wish they would have subbed someone to play in CocA's place, or at least let him play his games but have them count as losses even if he wins. As a paying GSL subscriber I'm really disappointed by the course of action taken by GOM. The player cheats, and it's the customer that pays the price for it.
On November 17 2011 16:19 Amlitzer wrote: I really wish they would have subbed someone to play in CocA's place, or at least let him play his games but have them count as losses even if he wins. As a paying GSL subscriber I'm really disappointed by the course of action taken by GOM. The player cheats, and it's the customer that pays the price for it.
Meh, give them a break. This happened two days before his scheduled match. They probably don't have a fair solution for replacements this quick.
On November 17 2011 16:19 Amlitzer wrote: I really wish they would have subbed someone to play in CocA's place, or at least let him play his games but have them count as losses even if he wins. As a paying GSL subscriber I'm really disappointed by the course of action taken by GOM. The player cheats, and it's the customer that pays the price for it.
Meh, give them a break. This happened two days before his scheduled match. They probably don't have a fair solution for replacements this quick.
Well it's not like I'm paying them to sit on their asses all day. The fact that they did not already have a plan in place for a situation like this just speaks of incompetence and laziness.
On November 17 2011 14:40 Xenorawks wrote: Overkill is overkill. Whatever SlayerS does to him it's their buisness true, but I still think not letting him continuing in Code S is a little too much. Not like it's so easy to get into code S, might as well let Coca finish the season at least? Why throw away a chance that a SlayerS might get another GSL trophy? Geez...
because sometimes, honor matters more than glory.
May be it should, but I don't think it does. If Coca would have won this GSL, no one would talk about the game against Byun anymore. He had to be punished, because they talked about it in the replay imho. If they just talked over Skype and not SC2, so none can see it, it would have been no problem.
isn't that like, "its only bad if caught"?
i assume you're talking about the attention this news is getting, not whether or not it is acceptable.
"I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain."
This is not correct.. The winner of the tournament was rewarded with a code a spot in the GSL. it so happens that CoCa is in Code S while his teammate and opponent was only in code b. So if you look at like that CoCa would not need to win a Code A spot, but with Byun being in Code B he would!
so when CoCa throws the game it looks like he is trying to help a teammate get into code a.
On November 17 2011 16:19 Amlitzer wrote: I really wish they would have subbed someone to play in CocA's place, or at least let him play his games but have them count as losses even if he wins. As a paying GSL subscriber I'm really disappointed by the course of action taken by GOM. The player cheats, and it's the customer that pays the price for it.
Meh, give them a break. This happened two days before his scheduled match. They probably don't have a fair solution for replacements this quick.
Well it's not like I'm paying them to sit on their asses all day. The fact that they did not already have a plan in place for a situation like this just speaks of incompetence and laziness.
I am guessing you already had a plan, then? Can you come up with a plan? How can you fairly give somebody a code s slot? Who should get it?
I have no idea what should be done with this. Banning Coca from that minor tournament is as far as it should go though, as usual there's been epic overreaction here. I can't even work out what the exact situation is in the tournament that the incident happened in due to lack of information, and what I have heard is conflicting.
i have a feeling that slayers punished coca so that the community would be happy. in korea, this type of thing is seen as something soo much worse then we see it. if slayers didnt punish him, the league would have. the fact that he is still on their team means that they want him to play. there wasnt a specified amount of time that he would not be competing. i bet that they are just waiting for this to blow over, not waiting until they think he is ready or whatever they said. how can you even judge when he is ready anyways.
Coca didn't deserve what he gotl. This isn't a big deal at all, Coca had nothing to win, Byun had everything to win and they are friends. I would have done the same thing as Coca. Don't think pro players are saints please, almost all progamers have split pricepools or predetermined outcomes of matches if there was a lot on stake for 1 guy and almost nothing for the other. Even guys like Grubby and ToD shared pricepools in WC3. It's normal.
On November 17 2011 16:19 Amlitzer wrote: I really wish they would have subbed someone to play in CocA's place, or at least let him play his games but have them count as losses even if he wins. As a paying GSL subscriber I'm really disappointed by the course of action taken by GOM. The player cheats, and it's the customer that pays the price for it.
Meh, give them a break. This happened two days before his scheduled match. They probably don't have a fair solution for replacements this quick.
Well it's not like I'm paying them to sit on their asses all day. The fact that they did not already have a plan in place for a situation like this just speaks of incompetence and laziness.
I would love to see what you would do in their shoes. GOM doesn't exactly have a lot of choices. Handing out Ro16 seats is not something that can be done lightly
I think the punishment that was handed out is enough. They are both young, they are bound to make mistakes. Putting them off a little while until they see why what they did is bad is sufficient.
Haha oh wow, as a result of what I posted above, I've been misreading what event this happened in, I thought it was in weekly number 14, not 15, LOLOL, so this happened in THE LAST 32 of an event which only acts as a qualifier to a tournament where someone may win a code A spot? Jesus, when this first broke people were making out that this was a straight up game for a code A spot. Holy mother of god.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
What, is this guy trolling? If you were seriously someone looking to associate your company with the community, you wouldn't get involved with these types of threads. It's very unprofessional.
However, if your serious. This is actually a loss since nothing big ever happens on the SEA server..... like ever....
lol.
My sole reason for involving myself in these threads is to steer the community in a direction that is palatable to the general public. My posts reflect that. When a member of VP Gamers goes on a thread such as this one to tell a potential organiser he is not welcome in addition to the responses in the poll results of both this and the "SlayerSCoca forfeits Code S" thread, it is not possible in this climate to organise an event of the caliber I was planning.
To seek corporate sponsorship for an event that may be thrown by the participants colluding among themselves to split the prize money when stakeholders expect otherwise is wrong. The perception of "How can playing computer games be a sport?" is changed because of the argument, "Because they practice long and hard to give their best every game regardless of the prize or opponent."
How am I to answer my sponsors when they see SlayerSCoca's chat: "I'll let you win."? Say he's just a kid? That's he's just practicing? That it is good he's doing it openly? It is only match fixing if he planned it before the start of the event/no money was involved? The prize is too small to play seriously? (Some of the arguments posted)
Let us not forget also, the recent PPSL fiasco.
But as long as the community puts the needs of the player above the sport (eSports), I cannot see myself producing an event at this present time given the current conditions.
Edit: Missing stuff.
I'm sorry buddy, you could be telling the truth. But for some reason I just do not believe you.
Also, I always thought what goes on within the competition shouldn't even bother sponsors. After all, it's just business. As long as there is exposure, that is all what counts. It's all about making money, if you are looking into sponsoring e-sports, SC2 is your best bet. No other game even comes close to what Starcraft has achieved. Please don't say it's not just about making money, because if it wasn't..... we would see bronze players sponsored. Why don't we see bronze players sponsored? Because no one cares about them and cbf watching their streams (no exposure for sponsors).
Now, for a business man like you to let a little hiccup like this deter you away from providing an investment. You obviously can not see the bigger picture. For 1 comment from a pro gamer and a small hiccup like this dilemma to deter you away..... it's kinda weak. I thought someone of your caliber would be smart enough to realise that this is only the minority, you need to open up your eyes to see how big the SC2 community really is.
I'm quiet disappointed that something so small can deter you away, really.
They handled it really well. Hopefully he learns from this mistake and comes back to have a great careeer. The kid has a lot of talent, let's get some discipline to go with that.
I think NesTea summed it up perfectly when he tweeted "those guys have no brains" or something of the like. It's ridiculous how either one of them thought they'd end up unscathed. Imagine if Jaedong were like, "hey Flash lose this set so we can get more TvZ practice." It's laughable...no real professional does things like that.
On November 17 2011 17:27 mierin wrote: I think NesTea summed it up perfectly when he tweeted "those guys have no brains" or something of the like. It's ridiculous how either one of them thought they'd end up unscathed. Imagine if Jaedong were like, "hey Flash lose this set so we can get more TvZ practice." It's laughable...no real professional does things like that.
I'd be delighted that there's more than one BW competition going on tbqh
Threads like these make me rage at the amount of morons that think match fixing is OK and make excuses for it. Apparently, since he got punished, it's NOT OK for a professional to throw games. Get the message through your head already.
Though it might seem harsh to us, you have to realise that the koreans have zero tolerance for this kind of behaviour. The SlayerS team especially seems keen on maintaning very professional standards and they've treated it as a serious breach of conduct. Are they justified in what they did? Yes. Why? Because technically CoCa and Byun did fix the outcome of the match. Sure they were just messing around and it was stupidity not maliciousness that drove them to act this way, but the end result was the same. Was it a tad harsh? Yes. Being sent home, forfeting code s, and not being allowed to participate in any tournaments until further notice is very severe. However, I do think an example needed to be made here that any kind of screwing around for whatever the reason is not acceptable.
One thing I don't like is how CoCa's getting most of the flak when it was Byun who repeatedly asked him to leave the game. Yes, CoCa was wrong for granting Byun's favour, but a player shouldn't be asking their opposition to leave even if it's your close friend. He's just as guilty, if not more of this brainless act. He's very lucky that he had much less to lose.
I think slayers did the right thing. If slayer didn't take quick measure, then gsl might of done even crazier stuff since the korean community seems to be going crazy over it. Boxer is just giving coca tough love and saved him from mr.chae full anger.
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
You're out of your mind if you believe that pros go into matches without the intention of winning. They might try a build that is a "long shot" but they don't go into a game and WIN and then leave. Then they don't go on to LOSE the series. This isn't normal behavior and I think your judgement is highly suspect if you believe it is.
As a fan of s-sports and some traditional sports, the highlights that resonate in my mind are the matches that are full of tense moments where you don't know who is going to prevail and having someone take a dive is the exact opposite. It takes the value of it and lowers it.
I think SlayerS did the right thing. You can't have someone repping your team go out and do something like that and allow them to go unpunished. It sends the wrong message and SlayerS is a team of integrity.
(@Frankon: I hope this poll is about the ACTIONS of CoCa+Byun... in _doing_ the match fixing, because it might be not clear.... if so.... o_o at the yes)
I don't think it is ok to let the poor kid forfeit his Code S spot. He earned the spot himself through hard work and skill so he should keep it. I totally understand that SlayerS need to punish him, I think to let him not participate in any tourneys for a specific time frame and maybe also to promote him to their A team is justified and he will get it but come on. He is a 17 year old kid who made a stupid mistake. Looking on the mistake itself you see how silly it was to do this even in public on a chat of a tourney. I think we all agree on this that they we're both just not thinking about this and what they would really do with this BUt come on, give the kid his hard earned Code S spot back. :'(
1 Korean culture. Koreans have more discipline and are more used to harsher punishment, anyone with korean parents will tell you. 2 Match fixing: for the sc2 players, BW recently got hurt a lot by a match fixing scandal. They are trying everything they can to not make e-sports have an image of 'a bunch of matchfixers'.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
What, is this guy trolling? If you were seriously someone looking to associate your company with the community, you wouldn't get involved with these types of threads. It's very unprofessional.
However, if your serious. This is actually a loss since nothing big ever happens on the SEA server..... like ever....
lol.
My sole reason for involving myself in these threads is to steer the community in a direction that is palatable to the general public. My posts reflect that. When a member of VP Gamers goes on a thread such as this one to tell a potential organiser he is not welcome in addition to the responses in the poll results of both this and the "SlayerSCoca forfeits Code S" thread, it is not possible in this climate to organise an event of the caliber I was planning.
To seek corporate sponsorship for an event that may be thrown by the participants colluding among themselves to split the prize money when stakeholders expect otherwise is wrong. The perception of "How can playing computer games be a sport?" is changed because of the argument, "Because they practice long and hard to give their best every game regardless of the prize or opponent."
How am I to answer my sponsors when they see SlayerSCoca's chat: "I'll let you win."? Say he's just a kid? That's he's just practicing? That it is good he's doing it openly? It is only match fixing if he planned it before the start of the event/no money was involved? The prize is too small to play seriously? (Some of the arguments posted)
Let us not forget also, the recent PPSL fiasco.
But as long as the community puts the needs of the player above the sport (eSports), I cannot see myself producing an event at this present time given the current conditions.
Edit: Missing stuff.
I'm sorry buddy, you could be telling the truth. But for some reason I just do not believe you.
Also, I always thought what goes on within the competition shouldn't even bother sponsors. After all, it's just business. As long as there is exposure, that is all what counts. It's all about making money, if you are looking into sponsoring e-sports, SC2 is your best bet. No other game even comes close to what Starcraft has achieved. Please don't say it's not just about making money, because if it wasn't..... we would see bronze players sponsored. Why don't we see bronze players sponsored? Because no one cares about them and cbf watching their streams (no exposure for sponsors).
Now, for a business man like you to let a little hiccup like this deter you away from providing an investment. You obviously can not see the bigger picture. For 1 comment from a pro gamer and a small hiccup like this dilemma to deter you away..... it's kinda weak. I thought someone of your caliber would be smart enough to realise that this is only the minority, you need to open up your eyes to see how big the SC2 community really is.
I'm quiet disappointed that something so small can deter you away, really.
I wish to address your points as they are good questions: a) regarding what goes on in a competition does not bother sponsors, it is a wrong assumption, sponsors spend good money to associate themselves with prestigious events and to be viewed favourably by the fans of said sponsored events. Any event that I bring to my clients must be above suspicion and satisfy my standards of conduct.
b) I agree SC2 has achieved a lot in one year than any other sporting good has produced in the last decade. Hence my interest and resulting research in the viability of creating an event large enough to generate both public and corporate interest,
c) Given what I have seen and heard, I would need some kind of guarantee that a similar fiasco does not occur in my event,
d) I do agree one is not indicative of the whole. This "hiccup" has me doubting the maturity of the pro-gamer base. If the cream of the crop that is SlayerS can act this way, what of the rest?
e) You have successfully argued your point, I will watch for now.
I think u guys missed the point. The point is that this kind of behavior should never happen if sc2 were to become a recognized sport. Whether coca earned his code S spot through hard work or not doesn't matter. If u screw up like this, it's punishment altogether. He can still get it back, like a restart though. Count him lucky as he didn't get kicked out of slayers.
They simply saw that they had to make an example of this behavior. For the wellfare of Esports. Kind of sad for CoCa though.. He had a good chance in GSL this season.
I think it comes down to something simple, Boxer expects more of his players. The SlayerS team is supposed to work their asses off and show the same class Boxer does.
I think the punishments fine, playing for Slayers is an honor and the team does an exceptional job of training it's players and getting them promoted, in return the players are expected to act like pros. He didn't and he's getting punished like he didn't.
(@Frankon: I hope this poll is about the ACTIONS of CoCa+Byun... in _doing_ the match fixing, because it might be not clear.... if so.... o_o at the yes)
this thread is silly
matchfixing is bad End of story.
Yes it was about that match. Sadly the input limit in the Poll made me clear that part.
I think punishment is fine. Its completely retarded what they did ( though nothing was on the line). This sets an example.and hoefully reminds others to not make mistake.
Ps. Wonder how.often things like this happens and Noone finds out ( easy to sort through pm's)
why not just giving him a warning? He knows what he did was stupid even without getting a. kicked out of the teamhouse b. getting robbed from his code S spot c. getting banned from the competition he threw the game in.
Especially the banning from the teamhouse, wtf is wrong with those people. He's a great player with a great attitude, he just wanted to do something nice for his friend. It's not like he tried to cheat people out of money or something -.-' .
(@Frankon: I hope this poll is about the ACTIONS of CoCa+Byun... in _doing_ the match fixing, because it might be not clear.... if so.... o_o at the yes)
this thread is silly
matchfixing is bad End of story.
Yes it was about that match. Sadly the input limit in the Poll made me clear that part.
The behavior is suitable for a professional player, if they play a practice session. The mistake was treating this particular situation as a practice session. That's why the only punishment should be from the tournament itself, for the disrespect. (and even it's not too excessive - ban until January)
You realise stuff like this will go on all the time in tournaments which don't matter.
I dont even see what the problem is, its not like ppl were making bets upon the game so whether he wants to win or lose a game is completely up to him. If whoever ran this tourney is pissed that some players dont take it seriously they should just not invite them or whatever.
Seems retarded such a big deal is made out of something so trivial. Some people need to get things into perspective.
Why yes this is a stupid mistake made by a couple of young guys, it is absolutely unforgivable in this industry. Its exactly what Artosis said during the GSL when they got to Coca's group.
He called it unprofessional and rude, while that particular tournament may not be watched as much as the GSL by the Foreign community, it is by the Koreans and also that tournaments reward is a Code A spot. I agree that it isn't match fixing of any serious kind but it does seem quite suspicious considering that Byun needs a code A spot, Coca doesn't. Regardless of what tournament it is these players should be completely professional in every single appearance they make. Remember that they are wearing their Teams name and all of their sponsors names in every single appearance and that it is their job to fight, to play the sport.
I wish none of this happened because tbh I actually loved Coca and was going to be cheering for him along with MVP in their Code S group. Yes its life changing, its meant to be.
tldr; He didn't do his job, on purpose. Punishment deserved. For the Pros this is not a game, this is a professional sport and business and he represents one of the best in SlayerS. He needs to be 100% professional.
Edit: Even if a Code A spot is not a reward it doesn't make any difference. Footballers are not sponsored/employed to allow the opposite team to score. F1 Drivers are not sponsored/employed to allow the opposition to overtake them. This may not be fully accepted as a sport in the West yet, but in Korea it absolutely is and I would like it to be here as well. Part of it being accepted as a sport is maintaining certain standards.
Obviously Coca needed to be shown his place and the reaction is somehow justified because people will not resort to cheating in games or giving others wins. Sort of like if the police catches an underage smoking and has him suspended from school, taken away from home and his is life ruined. It's toying with another persons career but others will see that it's not worth doing. I think I would give Coca a less severe punishment but I can see why GOM and ESV decided otherwise.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
What, is this guy trolling? If you were seriously someone looking to associate your company with the community, you wouldn't get involved with these types of threads. It's very unprofessional.
However, if your serious. This is actually a loss since nothing big ever happens on the SEA server..... like ever....
lol.
My sole reason for involving myself in these threads is to steer the community in a direction that is palatable to the general public. My posts reflect that. When a member of VP Gamers goes on a thread such as this one to tell a potential organiser he is not welcome in addition to the responses in the poll results of both this and the "SlayerSCoca forfeits Code S" thread, it is not possible in this climate to organise an event of the caliber I was planning.
To seek corporate sponsorship for an event that may be thrown by the participants colluding among themselves to split the prize money when stakeholders expect otherwise is wrong. The perception of "How can playing computer games be a sport?" is changed because of the argument, "Because they practice long and hard to give their best every game regardless of the prize or opponent."
How am I to answer my sponsors when they see SlayerSCoca's chat: "I'll let you win."? Say he's just a kid? That's he's just practicing? That it is good he's doing it openly? It is only match fixing if he planned it before the start of the event/no money was involved? The prize is too small to play seriously? (Some of the arguments posted)
Let us not forget also, the recent PPSL fiasco.
But as long as the community puts the needs of the player above the sport (eSports), I cannot see myself producing an event at this present time given the current conditions.
Edit: Missing stuff.
You're either an excellent troll or a terrible businessman.
Sure, what Coca did was stupid in hindsight, but it is a far cry from match fixing and hell, it could even be a great gesture of sportsmanship. All I see Coca did was giving his friend a second shot at winning a match that I am betting Coca was pretty confident in winning. After dropping game 2 Coca still tries pretty hard to win game three. Not like he actually purposely drop game three afterward just so his friend can get another shot.
whatever reason there is, throwing a game is wrong. You can't base it on the intent of the person as it can be hidden. With that logic, people can throw games left and right and just say "i just want more practice". It was a right punishment. We can't let these things slip.
It wasn't premeditated, but that part is also bad as someone was so willing to just leave or forfeit a game for whatever reason. It does not create entertainment and would hurt e-sports. Imagine if this wasn't punished. How could you punish the next guy who does that? He'd simply point to this one and say it was unfair if they'd be punished while the previous person didn't.
It was the right choice. Right gravity, as it was not premeditated or for any personal gain.
I see it as differences in culture and cultural viewpoints.
I also feel the whole commotion in Kr, is due to the sheer lack of professionalism and disrespect for the tournament/game. Respect is generally a big deal in Asian societies.
On November 17 2011 18:53 sOda~ wrote: You realise stuff like this will go on all the time in tournaments which don't matter.
I dont even see what the problem is, its not like ppl were making bets upon the game so whether he wants to win or lose a game is completely up to him. If whoever ran this tourney is pissed that some players dont take it seriously they should just not invite them or whatever.
Seems retarded such a big deal is made out of something so trivial. Some people need to get things into perspective.
Good to know that there are tournaments that dont matter. We should get rid of them.
Then we would be left only with GSL, DH, IEMs and some MLG's...
And in a year SC2 would be dead in the west.
Those "tournaments which don't matter" are providing the scene with fresh blood. Without them we would be left only with old sc:bw progamers.
I really do not understand how people think what coca did was ok regardless of his need/desire for practice?
He entered a tournament and he broke the rules of course he deserved to be punished for it! He gave up his code s spot and quite rightly so and I trust the slayers coach and staff will deal with him as they see fit which is their right as he's contracted to them.
The people saying this is all for boxer to save face seem wide of the mark it's more to the point these two are being made an example of so this sort of thing doesn't become more widespread throughout the starcraft community which is undeniably a good thing.
I feel like what we are voting here is how many people have checked all the details of the full story.
Edited my post. It makes no difference if that was the reward or not.
It only makes difference as much as what happened within this tournament shouldn't be involved with the GSL in any way. The rest of your argument just doesn't apply to the situation, which was that Coca needed Terran practice (next opponent was Protoss) in the absence of his Terran teammates, so he would have forfeited the match anyway due to schedule conflicts - which is fine, and in fact only 6 of the 16 matches of this round were really played (counting this one). So, to get one more game of ZvT practice, he conceded at the end of the 2nd game. They could have not sent the silly replays anyway, but probably thought it would be entertaining - and it was, because the games were not staged (the match wasn't rigged or anything).
We must remember that CoCa, being part of a team and a tournament has obligations to several parties: (1) to his team to always show professionalism in and out of the team house; (2) to the sponsors of his team, who gives them food and money to help them focus on practicing the game only; (3) to the sponsors of the tournament, who gave cash, among other things, so that this tournament would be held; (4) to the tournament organizers, who worked hard to set this tournament up for them to play in; and (5) to the fans, who want to witness the highest level of game play and professionalism that is demanded.
You have to understand the culture is much much different then here in US or in Europe.. It's all about honor and respect. What CoCa did IMO was very dishonorable and there is no bigger insult then to dishonor the great SlayerS team, as well as his coach, fans, sponsors, etc. I feel stepping down from Code S and skipping a few tournaments is a rightful punishment. Understandably he probably didn't think it was a big deal but truthfully it's all about playing with honor and having respect for the game,
I think this is all kind of stupid to be honest. Players in group stages always throw games in favor of helping certain players through or denying other players through to help them or their teammates in the next bracket stages of tournies since BW. Just because they actually typed it out now it's all the sudden a big deal.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what is the issue but if that's it its kind of dumb and should be left alone. no punishment.
On November 17 2011 19:55 SpoR wrote: I think this is all kind of stupid to be honest. Players in group stages always throw games in favor of helping certain players through or denying other players through to help them or their teammates in the next bracket stages of tournies since BW. Just because they actually typed it out now it's all the sudden a big deal.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what is the issue but if that's it its kind of dumb and should be left alone. no punishment.
it's impressive how consistently retarded you are, you never miss a beat
(1) You don't trow games in televised matches, at least not like that. (2) You don't use curse words in televised matches, just for fun. (3) for practice you can play custom (4) It isn't even close related to the White-Ra event. Making that statement makes your post biased as hell, and makes you look silly.
1 Season and he can be back in Code S. he made a BIG mistake and he deserves this punishment 100%.
This is a tricky one, but i dont think the punishment was severe tbh, if it was "let go" it would just open the doors to more, probably behind the scenes (as this was stupid.) and bigger "match fixing". Sure it wasnt an important game. But it was still a highly respected tournament with a code A slot up for grabs (eventually).
Basically, i would leave ESV to do what they want about him, it was their tourney that him and the other dude fucked up. Ban for life if they want too.
In regards to the GSL, i think he should have lost his Code S and been forced to withdraw yeah. Banned untill 2012 and then allowed to requalify through code B. ( No fast tracks. ) I feel in this case, that would be a suitable punishment
On November 17 2011 20:29 Capped wrote: But it was still a highly respected tournament with a code A slot up for grabs (eventually).
God, mods should put a sign above the OP with this detail in it:
There was no Code A slot up for grabs eventually. Mr Chae was still in negotiations with the ESV, and no Code A slot had been decided upon. Thus, claiming it was evil and Coca deserves flagellation for giving his team-mate a free Code A spot is ignorant as fuck. Sure, there was a possibility at some point of the ESV Monthly ending up giving out a Code A spot. This was the opening series in the ESV WEEKLY. That's the equivalent of Idra's resignation in several small EU tournaments, and yet there was no knee-jerk reaction from the internet about that, because it didn't fucking matter. That he was doing it for a team-mate should be irrelevant to the rules.
I don't see why this was handled incorrectly. I really dislike the "he is just a kid and made a stupid mistake" argument. Why should he be excused just because he is young? Would this be a fair judgement if NesTea did it, but not CoCa? The same rules should apply to all progamers.
ESV should of course be allowed to ban him for as long as they want. The same goes for Slayers, I assume the players in the team were all aware that the team doesn't want them to do things like this, yet CoCa did anyway, and gets his due punishment.
Wow, i actually didnt gave the matter such a big deal, as it didnt seemed planned at all (what went down on the 2nd game) I think that sure, what they did goes against everything a "pro" is meant to do on his area, but they are getting the sharp side of the edge just to make a point, "any kind of forfeit or matchmaking is not allowed and will NOT be accepted by any means".
I can understand the reasons why they got punished like they where, but still seems a bit excessive to me. I still hold great respect to SlayerS team, but they shold at least let Coca train on the team house... either try to work with him or cut him lose.
On November 17 2011 20:43 EsMors wrote: ESV should of course be allowed to ban him for as long as they want. The same goes for Slayers, I assume the players in the team were all aware that the team doesn't want them to do things like this, yet CoCa did anyway, and gets his due punishment.
It's fairly obvious that SlayerS are doing what they are to save face for sc2 in Korea. References to the sAviOr incident have been made, and SlayerS want to appear to be "tough on crime", so acted in response. I have no doubt that, were the public not bothered at all by this, Coca would have had no severe repercussions at all. And this is why it is a tragedy - uninformed people making uninformed comments and having uninformed opinions lead to a minor mistake being made huge and yet the Korean culture and the history of "match-fixing" (although I hesitate to call it that) make it near impossible for Coca to have the punishment reduced.
The whole situation has been blown way out of proportion, and Coca is the one to suffer for it.
On November 17 2011 20:29 Capped wrote: But it was still a highly respected tournament with a code A slot up for grabs (eventually).
God, mods should put a sign above the OP with this detail in it:
There was no Code A slot up for grabs eventually. Mr Chae was still in negotiations with the ESV, and no Code A slot had been decided upon. Thus, claiming it was evil and Coca deserves flagellation for giving his team-mate a free Code A spot is ignorant as fuck. Sure, there was a possibility at some point of the ESV Monthly ending up giving out a Code A spot. This was the opening series in the ESV WEEKLY. That's the equivalent of Idra's resignation in several small EU tournaments, and yet there was no knee-jerk reaction from the internet about that, because it didn't fucking matter. That he was doing it for a team-mate should be irrelevant to the rules.
Well, my post wasnt really about the fact of it having a code A slot, it was just one of the outcomes of their actions, fine i was wrong. I dont think im "ignorant as fuck" thanks, ive heard from every source i could find (Here, reddit, mentioned on ESV weekly themselves, by artosis.) so i thought it was pretty safe to say that? fuck me -_-.
And giving a team mate a free win while playing him (If you get to the bracket with him then resign, or do it the dumbass way they did and discuss and do it in game.) is completely different to just resigning in a tournament ? I dont see how you could get that conclusion, that leaving a tournament for no reason and giving <random person> a bye is the same as leaving a game then losing on purpose to give your team mate the win. (take out the team mate and put <random person> in and it still isnt right.)
Im not the person who is "Ignorant as fuck" here imo, but i still wont sit here and call you it -_-
I think it was handled properly. It was no savior-like incident, but it had to be punished hard, so other players see it and are discuraged to do it as well.
I think the question is what to do with future players joinning the gsl who have match-fixed before? (not talking about Idra and DeMuslim, since somebody told me that they asked the admin about it beforehand)
On November 17 2011 21:07 Capped wrote: the same as leaving a game then losing on purpose to give your team mate the win.
That's not what happened. All the 3 games were played at their max. But Coca won game 2 and in the end conceded it in favor of his Terran opponent, in order to get a 3rd game for his ZvT practice, for his all-Terran group in the GSL, because all his Terran teammates were busy with another event. He says all that in chat.
I think that they're quite young an naive, the punishment was VERY harsh but there certainly still should have been punishment.
In my opinion, they should have a temporary suspension from the ESV but removing Coca's Code S spot and removing him from the A team is VERY VERY harsh.
Match fixing is not okay, what they did was obviously wrong but the situation has exploded to much larger proportions than it ever should have.
On November 17 2011 21:07 Capped wrote: Well, my post wasnt really about the fact of it having a code A slot, it was just one of the outcomes of their actions, fine i was wrong. I dont think im "ignorant as fuck" thanks, ive heard from every source i could find (Here, reddit, mentioned on ESV weekly themselves, by artosis.) so i thought it was pretty safe to say that? fuck me -_-.
It wasn't aimed specifically at you. It was aimed at all the uninformed people who discussed it. Why discuss it without looking up a first-hand source (preferably Diamond or an interview with Mr Chae) to verify the facts first?
And listing reddit, a forum thread and Artosis of all people as sources isn't a bright idea.
On November 17 2011 21:07 Capped wrote: And giving a team mate a free win while playing him (If you get to the bracket with him then resign, or do it the dumbass way they did and discuss and do it in game.) is completely different to just resigning in a tournament ? I dont see how you could get that conclusion
The short answer is that I didn't get to that conclusion, and in your haste to assert you position as not-ignorant-as-fuck you seemed to missed that. I said it WAS equivalent to resigning in a tournament.
On November 17 2011 21:07 Capped wrote: Im not the person who is "Ignorant as fuck" here imo, but i still wont sit here and call you it -_-
I think you just did, while also looking for a socially acceptable way to go about it. If you think I'm ignorant, call me ignorant, but don't make a vague attempt at civility while also insulting me.
I feel that this kind of tournement behaviour should not go unpunished. If they dont strike down on this harsly, more people will be inclined to do similar acts.
Sucks for Cocoa though, but he will bounce back im sure
On November 17 2011 21:35 Chanted wrote: I feel that this kind of tournement behaviour should not go unpunished. If they dont strike down on this harsly, more people will be inclined to do similar acts.
Sucks for Cocoa though, but he will bounce back im sure
If he doesn't will we just keep saying "Have to make a scapegoat so others won't do but it sucks for Coca".
On November 17 2011 21:07 Capped wrote: the same as leaving a game then losing on purpose to give your team mate the win.
That's not what happened. All the 3 games were played at their max. But Coca won game 2 and in the end conceded it in favor of his Terran opponent, in order to get a 3rd game for his ZvT practice, for his all-Terran group in the GSL, because all his Terran teammates were busy with another event. He says all that in chat.
So he couldn´t have played again, against the same opponent? Makes no difference, though, and will only send the message: "Don´t get caught" instead of: "Don´t do this ever again".
On November 17 2011 21:07 Capped wrote: the same as leaving a game then losing on purpose to give your team mate the win.
That's not what happened. All the 3 games were played at their max. But Coca won game 2 and in the end conceded it in favor of his Terran opponent, in order to get a 3rd game for his ZvT practice, for his all-Terran group in the GSL, because all his Terran teammates were busy with another event. He says all that in chat.
So he couldn´t have played again, against the same opponent? Makes no difference, though, and will only send the message: "Don´t get caught" instead of: "Don´t do this ever again".
If they had any intention to mislead, cover, or cheat - they would not have sent any replays anyway, which would have resulted in exactly the same outcome for Byun. Not sure what you mean.
My opinion is that as the punishments were dealt out by their own teams, it is satisfactory. IF CocA believed it was unfair what slayers did, he could (in theory) leave the team and avoid that punishment. He decided that taking the team demotion and staying with slayers was the better option than keeping code S and being teamless for a bit.
I think the op misinterprets the accident. in fact, coca helped his teammate get a spot in code a by losing that game and maybe the next one, so there is a clear gain for him in dropping that game. but i don't feel qualified to judge the severity of the deed and of the punishment.
On November 17 2011 21:57 Ganseng wrote: I think the op misinterprets the accident. in fact, coca helped his teammate get a spot in code a by losing that game and maybe the next one, so there is a clear gain for him in dropping that game. but i don't feel qualified to judge the severity of the deed and of the punishment.
Firstly Byun isn't his teammate. Secondly there was no code A spot up for grabs. So clearly there is no gain for dropping that game. You are the one that misinterprets the situation.
I don't really understand why there's any grey area one way or another...match fixing is match fixing. It's pretty much the worst thing you can do in eSports. If he's guilty, then he should be prepared to suffer the most severe of consequences. He's lucky that SC2 isn't KESPA governed, or he might be banned for life.
Matchfixing should be met with fire. Fire as in lighting the diamond encrusted sigar as you sit on your jetsky made of dollars and gold.
Sure if it was done here in holland he would get a minor tap on the fingers. But I'm not Korean and I don't know jack about what they really look down upon. So I don't see it as a terrible punishment if they really feel like its a bad thing.
On November 17 2011 21:57 Ganseng wrote: I think the op misinterprets the accident. in fact, coca helped his teammate get a spot in code a by losing that game and maybe the next one, so there is a clear gain for him in dropping that game. but i don't feel qualified to judge the severity of the deed and of the punishment.
edit yeahaaa! i'm marine now! ))
There was actually no Code A spot at stake. (see previous posts) /there should be a bot to post this at every 4-5 posts
On November 17 2011 21:35 Chanted wrote: I feel that this kind of tournement behaviour should not go unpunished. If they dont strike down on this harsly, more people will be inclined to do similar acts.
Sucks for Cocoa though, but he will bounce back im sure
If he doesn't will we just keep saying "Have to make a scapegoat so others won't do but it sucks for Coca".
Unfortunate, yes. But some do blow the punishment out of proportion. He is not the only one "not on Slayers A-team". It's a reminder to everybody what it takes to earn that privilege. He is not suddenly the outcast being spitted upon. In the KR netizen public, maybe. But none of us really can tell how things are handled internally and especially on a personal level. None of us can tell how he is being treated by Boxer, Cella and Jessica, what they told him exactly. There's a certain sentiment inside TL saying "he'll never make it back". On the other hand, from Slayers' point of view "with such a mentality, one might not have been fit for the A-team anyway".
Forfeiting Code S is a huge deal, I get it. But on the other hand, it's a 2-month ban at the end of the year. Not a life-ban. Plus, there is to be more permeability to be expected with GSL's new format. I feel that's not the important part anyway- for Coca that is. I do imagine being thrown out of the house is the biggest disgrace, Yet again, we can't comment on how things will go on from this point. Is he really being left in the rain by his team? Or is it "show us that you're worth it". He will have to go through internal selections again. Being measured against all the others that are eager to climb up the ranks. Either he comes out on top or some other talent steals the show. At that time, it will be left to the team's upper echelon to judge. But that is part of the everyday process within a team
An example had to be made, CoCa and Byun were the ones used to set this example. CoCa is a great Zerg player and will surely climb back up into Code S and continue to own it up, returning to the pro house once he does. They are still young and very skilled, and didn't get booted from the teams so it's fine imo.
On November 17 2011 22:00 turamn wrote: I don't really understand why there's any grey area one way or another...match fixing is match fixing. It's pretty much the worst thing you can do in eSports. If he's guilty, then he should be prepared to suffer the most severe of consequences. He's lucky that SC2 isn't KESPA governed, or he might be banned for life.
You do make it out to be quite appealing on Coca's side of the story, but the fact remains that he did throw the match on purpose. Should we expect to understand why the punishment was so 'harsh'? No, we are not Korean. We are not slayers boxer and we do not play or respect the game nearly as much as they do. Progaming is everything to these people, and match fixing and throwing away matches on purpose even for no gain, shows they do not take their role seriously. I know it may seem harsh to you, but over there this is the easiest way out Coca could have hoped for...
i dont see the big deal. It would be different if it was fixing a whole tournament or multi team fixes. But this was just something stupid done during the spur of the moment done between friends. Every sport always has some kind of hey did x team purposfuly let y team win during the late season even tho team x shoulda won easily. Just so team x didnt have to face team z.
Its just this time they litterally spelt it out lol
On November 17 2011 22:06 firehand101 wrote: throwing away matches on purpose even for no gain, shows they do not take their role seriously.
Not in this case - it was for very serious purpose: self-development and practice (particularly ZvT practice). You can also compare it to people who nuke themselves to demonstrate their advantage (and sometimes lose), but applied to a series in which you would handicap yourself with 1 game to make it more challenging and to extend your practice with 1 more game.
On November 17 2011 21:57 Ganseng wrote: I think the op misinterprets the accident. in fact, coca helped his teammate get a spot in code a by losing that game and maybe the next one, so there is a clear gain for him in dropping that game. but i don't feel qualified to judge the severity of the deed and of the punishment.
Firstly Byun isn't his teammate. Secondly there was no code A spot up for grabs. So clearly there is no gain for dropping that game. You are the one that misinterprets the situation.
On November 17 2011 21:57 Ganseng wrote: I think the op misinterprets the accident. in fact, coca helped his teammate get a spot in code a by losing that game and maybe the next one, so there is a clear gain for him in dropping that game. but i don't feel qualified to judge the severity of the deed and of the punishment.
Firstly Byun isn't his teammate. Secondly there was no code A spot up for grabs. So clearly there is no gain for dropping that game. You are the one that misinterprets the situation.
It wasn't match fixing. It would be match fixing if they went into the game and Coca played bad / made mistakes on purpose in order to lose the game. But he CLEARLY says in the FULL chat log to the game that he didn't care if he win or lost he wanted to forfeit for more practice.
On November 17 2011 21:57 Ganseng wrote: I think the op misinterprets the accident. in fact, coca helped his teammate get a spot in code a by losing that game and maybe the next one, so there is a clear gain for him in dropping that game. but i don't feel qualified to judge the severity of the deed and of the punishment.
Firstly Byun isn't his teammate. Secondly there was no code A spot up for grabs. So clearly there is no gain for dropping that game. You are the one that misinterprets the situation.
It wasn't match fixing. It would be match fixing if they went into the game and Coca played bad / made mistakes on purpose in order to lose the game. But he CLEARLY says in the FULL chat log to the game that he didn't care if he win or lost he wanted to forfeit for more practice.
i don't see principal difference here. press surrender button without any reason to do so or make moves on purpose that will lead you to defeat is the same for me. he didn't make any secret out of his intentions, yes it's true. but even if you don't make a secret of your misdemeanour, it's still misdemeanour. if you want more practice, you can always play customs. if you play in a televised tournament, be so nice and show a gg.
even if this wasn't match-fixing (which some people try to prove) there is still a issue of players acting in a way inappropriate for a progamer... Remember Choya got banned by GOM for playing rock paper scissors on blizzard ladder in pvp.
This sort of behavior is entirely inconsistent with any sense of professional ethics on the part of the players - if you want to call yourself a "progamer," then you need to act like a professional. For a progamer, an important component of professional behavior is living up to the expectations of your fans, your tournament, your team, and your sponsors to play the best games of Starcraft (or any other game) you possibly can. Throwing a match, whether through per-meditation or a spur-of-the-moment desire to goof off, is nothing short of a betrayal of that expectation. There are plenty of venues for less serious play. In a professional tournament environment, that kind of behavior is entirely unacceptable.
It's good to see these players' teams taking an active role in enforcing professional standards in their players' conduct. Continuing to foster an atmosphere of professionalism is important to the future growth of the E-Sports scene.
On November 17 2011 21:57 Ganseng wrote: I think the op misinterprets the accident. in fact, coca helped his teammate get a spot in code a by losing that game and maybe the next one, so there is a clear gain for him in dropping that game. but i don't feel qualified to judge the severity of the deed and of the punishment.
Firstly Byun isn't his teammate. Secondly there was no code A spot up for grabs. So clearly there is no gain for dropping that game. You are the one that misinterprets the situation.
It wasn't match fixing. It would be match fixing if they went into the game and Coca played bad / made mistakes on purpose in order to lose the game. But he CLEARLY says in the FULL chat log to the game that he didn't care if he win or lost he wanted to forfeit for more practice.
i don't see principal difference here. press surrender button without any reason to do so or make moves on purpose that will lead you to defeat is the same for me. he didn't make any secret out of his intentions, yes it's true. but even if you don't make a secret of your misdemeanour, it's still misdemeanour. if you want more practice, you can always play customs. if you play in a televised tournament, be so nice and show a gg.
He did show a gg, thats the point.. He played all the matches and they were submitted to be casted. They were good games too, both players playing to win. At the end of the day why do we accept player A surrendering to player B as player B winning even if player A has won the game?
I think as long as he is allowed to come back again to play in big tournaments after a period of reflection then it should be fine, this is definitely not as bad as the Savior and co. incident, but they should be disciplined in someway without ruining their progaming career completely.
On November 17 2011 23:00 ishboh wrote: i think that is completely reasonable that he be taken from code S and for him to have to re-earn his spot. match fixing is serious business.
If he is willing to throw a match to help a friend get into code S, then he deserves to have his code S status taken away.
Please read the whole thread before posting please. Nothing you said is true and its only adding to the misinformation already floating around these threads.
It's hard to say whether the punishment is too severe without knowing what happens next.
Coca from now on should be allowed to pursue his SC2 career to the best of his ability... he already lost his Code S spot, so if he can't compete in the next GSLs I would think it too harsh.
Why didn't byun get banned for cussing him out for half the match and crying about you said you would let me win. No class, no manners and that has to hurt your marketing efforts coming across like a whining school girl that can't hack it and has to beg to win?
K this was not "matchfixing" in Savior style, but they (Byun+Coca) still fixed one Map of a BO3. This is still wrong and there should be consequences. Which consequences is the decision of Slayers, Prime, ESV and GOM.
On November 17 2011 22:59 whitefluff wrote: And lets be honest. In January, who here believes they won't be seeing coca on the SlayerS A team again? I mean really people.
Oh, I'm definitely not sure. But if they are so kind to do that, I guess I can forget their overreaction. (only because I believe in Coca's full ability to re-gain the position that he was robbed of, very quickly)
By the way, to those who say it's good to have some kind of scapegoat in the name of teaching everyone a lesson - that's a terrible argument. It doesn't prove that the SC2 community is mature, but exactly the opposite - that it's deeply insecure of its own integrity. In a normal sane community, a person who is not guilty would not be thrown for public example. (doesn't even make a proper example)
It's also not about Korean or non-Korean way of thinking - it's about fully understanding the whole case, or not.
You have to understand that Asian culture prides itself very heavily on integrity. Any form of insult to a fair game would result in a very severe consequence.
It is unfortunate that these kids have to be made an example of. They punishments are not career ending. They'll be back
I really don't think we should have any opinion on whether or not it was "handled correctly" or not. We're not on the SlayerS team, we're not in GOMtv.
They have to do what they have to do to preserve the sanctity of competition within their team, and within their tournament.
I think the punishment is to harsh especially for Coca which only wanted to help his friend without thinking of the consequences... the fact that Byun just asked him to leave and Coca said yes is probably because no one has explained them the rules good enough..if they knew the rules. and would have been clever Coca would just have made the games against Byun look hard for him but still letting Byun wins.. then it would have been impossible for anyone to tell that Coca let Byun win...
As for the punishment i think Coca should have gotten a warning which would result in the punishment he got now if he violated this or any other rule again... and Byun should have been banned from Code A for a season or two..
Looks to me that they are using this two young promising players only to set a example.
On November 17 2011 23:24 Daimai wrote: This is such a stupid situation.
If he wants to throw games, who cares? It's his choice.
Respectfully, I disagree. If Coca just wanted to play Starcraft 2 - say, on a stream - then obviously yes, he could do whatever he wanted. As far as I can tell, there is no moral imperative not to lose games; if you're just playing to play, then by all means, do whatever you want.
However, Coca is not just playing to play: he is a professional gamer, on a team with sponsors playing in a tournament with sponsors, with fans watching his games for their entertainment. Being a "professional gamer" requires adhering to some standard of professional ethics - Coca owes it to his fans, his team, and the tournament in which he is playing to play the best he possibly can in a professional manner. Regardless of his motives, Coca clearly behaved in an unprofessional way, and his team is penalizing him for it, as they should.
I think that since Korea already had a history of match fixing within their esports scene this needed to be dealt with harshly. Even if this incident was no where near as bad as the last one I think that if esports, not just in Korea but everywhere, wants to be taken seriously all incidents of cheating must be punished harshly. Even if that means that some individuals may be punished more than the situation would seem to warrant.
On November 17 2011 22:59 whitefluff wrote: And lets be honest. In January, who here believes they won't be seeing coca on the SlayerS A team again? I mean really people.
Oh, I'm definitely not sure. But if they are so kind to do that, I guess I can forget their overreaction. (only because I believe in Coca's full ability to re-gain the position that he was robbed of, very quickly)
By the way, to those who say it's good to have some kind of scapegoat in the name of teaching everyone a lesson - that's a terrible argument. It doesn't prove that the SC2 community is mature, but exactly the opposite - that it's deeply insecure of its own integrity. In a normal sane community, a person who is not guilty would not be thrown for public example. (doesn't even make a proper example)
It's also not about Korean or non-Korean way of thinking - it's about fully understanding the whole case, or not.
In my opinion, it all depends on Coca's reaction. If he handles it like a man and takes responsibility, I see no reason why Lim Yo-Hwan won't let him back.
the reason why anyone is still asking this is because the sc2 scene is still very much individual-focused and unprofessional in that people think (and can, because the lack of control that teams have esp outside of korea) they can do whatever they want.
you think byun and coca, if they were in SKT1 and KT respectively, would have done and said the same things if were a televised match? (there is a reason why kespa doesn't allow chatting ingame) it's unprofessional and undermines these players' credibility as athletes (in the e-sports sense of the word).
furthermore, coca was being stupid in front of many, many people, and having the slayers tag attached to him has his entire team indirectly involved to some extent.
on the korean servers, you NEVER see people with clan tags in their name ever be BM to others or even say anything stupid even when they get baited. i certainly don't do it, it's strongly discouraged, people who do get kicked out and posts are made on playxp explaining the situations.
imagine what it would be like for a pro team and players whose matches are actually being watched by others.
people are also forgetting that byun was swearing in the chat. again, completely unprofessional.
BW teams often sent underperforming players down to their B-teams and sometimes even sent them home so that they could get their shit together. I don't see how this is anything dissimilar.
On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote: Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment.
He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
So when parents say "You're grounded until I said otherwise", and that's fucked up? Wow, that was like the softest punishment you can possibly think of. Or you want him to say "Tee hee, he's just a kid, we're sorry, that won't happen again". How do you think that kind of apology will hold up in the future? As long as they're young and they can do stupid stuff and get away with it? What happens if all other young progamers think because they are good and young, they can get away with anything? You say Boxer is wrong when he thinks of the team when he gave that punishment, then did Coca think of the team when he did that action? Maybe it's just mindset from different culture or something, but as an Asian, I'm truly at shocked when people think this kind of punishment is too harsh
LOL @ You. They didn't ground CoCa. Look at SC2 progress as a set of stairs. 250 being the top where Nestea and MVP are sitting. CoCa was well over half way there, and possibly closer that even that on a good stretch near theh top. He was made to go to the very bottom, and told to wait there untill he could start climbing again.
Also, your 'parent and grounding' thing has absolutely nothing to do with what i said, nor anything to do with the punishment CoCa received. I never said they should just apologize or anything, its like your took 2 words i said, and then created your own example out of thin air.
Speaking of Cultures, maybe its an Asian thing, but possibly ruining a kids future because of one fuckup is generally not something i look kindly to, so yes i disagree. Idk, maybe its an American thing, but when i punish my son, i dont do it in a way that could ruin whatever it is he is doing. If my son does something stupid fishing, i dont punish him so badly that he'll never want to fish again. Nobody is thinking about CoCa here. They are only thinking about Boxer's Image, The Teams Image, Esports Image. SICKENS ME. Think about the fucking child.
I fully agree that we need to think about the CHILD. And that's exactly why the punishment fit the crime.
You seem to be under the impression that it really didn't matter what CoCa did. It was all fun and games, never mind that it was a tournament, with an audience and people watching, sponsors, everything.
So if your son purposefully threw a sports game(with you watching in the audience, with sponsors watching, etc), you'd react "oh, who cares, he can do what he wants" ?
Think about the Vancouver riots. There was a very clear picture of an Asian teenager launching a punch right at a riot cop with his shield up. This kid happened to have university clearance due to excellent grades. But due to his actions during the riot(attacking a freaking COP), his parents yanked him off, and the university also denied him entry.
So would your reaction have been "let him be"? And that denying him university education was too harsh, over one day of stupid decision - participating in a riot, attacking a cop, etc?
Coca is adult, earning money with SC2, it´s his job. Cheating in your job results in losing your job, every job. If you are a driver or policeofficer and you get cought driving while drunk you lose your licence, means your job is gone too. Thats life, think before you handle...
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
Based on the response from other VT members here -
I haven't heard of your name hosting tourneys in the vein of 120k before. Can you link for me your past tourneys?
I'm ok with what happened. Gotta look at the bigger pictures.
First of all, none of these other events mentioned are really completely provable, aside from the WhiteRa incident, and even that was mostly a show of respect. In the coca/byun incident, it was stated clearly in text what was happening.
Secondly, this, if nothing else, makes the team look bad. As part of a business, you need to keep that power implied. Hell look at most pro sports that aren't e-sports. If a player does something dumb like this they're fined by teams and/or league, with more extreme cases being a permanent ban.
Like many other people are saying, these guys are young and will inevitably return to the scene, maybe even as better players. This is a slap on the wrist.
The only thing I don't like about the situation is it's timing. The way the GSL is throwing upset after upset at us lately, I really thought Coca had a chance to win the whole thing »:<
I am curious what Coca and Byun's reactions are to this. Like to hear atleast something from Coca, what was going through his head (decisions or perception). I saw the screen shots and the read after, this is a serious matter and I agree with the decisions made.
On November 17 2011 11:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, "Starcraft 2 players throw games when against friends for fun and practice" is not an association I want.
In fact, thanks to this thread, I'm having serious doubts if I want to continue associating myself and my company with this community and even Blizzard Entertainment given their lack of action despite charging serious sums from organizers.
good riddance imo.
I see that you are a progamer yourself.
Therefore your words carry some weight in this community. I have also taken into account of posters from Singapore and their opinion on this incident.
I have thus decided to cancel business plans for a US$120,000 Winner-take-all tournament operating out of Singapore on Blizzard's SEA server due to the lack of professionalism by both the professional community and their fan base.
Edit: Grammar.
Based on the response from other VT members here -
I haven't heard of your name hosting tourneys in the vein of 120k before. Can you link for me your past tourneys?
This was to be the first event. I have been in business for some time, I do not consider myself exceptional by any means. I see my role as in executive production. I find corporate sponsors who wish to fund and be associated with activities similar to their corporate values, usually involing excellence, responsibility and duty. Funds are then distributed accordingly among the various organizers, agents and contractors.
I don't know, it obviously wasn't nearly as bad (or similar at all) to the more famed BW scandal, I see it more as just somebody helping out a friend, but in a bad way. I think he deserves some time off, but being kicked from the SlayerS house (not permanent, i'm assuming, but still) seems like a lot. I guess that if we want to be legitimate we, as a community, have to shun these people for what they have done.
People who act this blatantly stupid have no place in a GSL.
No comment on the severity of their action, but you don't CHAT TO DISCUSS ABOUT THROWING A GAME TO YOUR PARTNER WHILE IT'S BEING TELEVISED. I think Coca needs to grow up a little before competing in competitive Starcraft again.
Kicked out of his team house, banned from offline and online tournaments for a time period and is no longer in Code S. I believe that is suitable punishment for what he did.
I definitely think he should be punished, however you must take into consideration of how silly and unplanned the whole thing was. In addition to that he is really just an immature person at his age and has spent so much time and energy into this game it's really sad to take it all away just for some stupid thing like this ;(
On November 18 2011 02:37 Glioburd wrote: He didn't cheated, just helped a friend. He doesn't deserve punishment.
He didn't cheat that is true, but he did give a win to his friend which in itself is wrong in competitive game such, no especially as Starcraft. Whether he deserves his punishment depends on your personal morals and views of the situation and I would say that he completely deserved it, I was more surprised that it wasn't more severe in fact. Despite that CoCa is still a great player and this was a huge mistake, but mistakes should never be overlooked and avoiding punishment would mean that they would "potentially" do it again.
Looking at this, Cocas entire life was put into this, everything he has worked for is for gaming. It all gets taken away, his dreams and everything for one mistakes. Being banned from ESV, okay I get that but kicked out of the slayers house, not allowed to participate in tournaments and losing his code S spot? Come on this can't be fair to this kid who made an immature stupid decision, he is still young, mistakes happen.
That being said, I am not from the Korean culture so I don't know their views on things like this so whatever.
I agree that forfeiting his Code S is a pretty severe punishment but I guess they want to set an example on how serious any form of fixing games are. With the history in BW, I guess it's very important to set a strong precedent that fixing matches is the worst offense.
On November 18 2011 02:37 Glioburd wrote: He didn't cheated, just helped a friend. He doesn't deserve punishment.
He didn't cheat that is true, but he did give a win to his friend which in itself is wrong in competitive game such, no especially as Starcraft. Whether he deserves his punishment depends on your personal morals and views of the situation and I would say that he completely deserved it, I was more surprised that it wasn't more severe in fact. Despite that CoCa is still a great player and this was a huge mistake, but mistakes should never be overlooked and avoiding punishment would mean that they would "potentially" do it again.
You do know that most progamers have fixed matches like this but they just weren't caught right? When there's isnt anything to win for you except for a few dollars and the other guy can earn quite a lot it sounds normal to me to just let the other guy win if he's a friend. I would do the same thing as Coca did for sure.
There's a lot of comments in both of the CoCa threads about how he's so young, and how he probably didn't know any better. I think it's well before your teenage years when you learn the difference between right and wrong, and learn what cheating is.
Fact of the matter is, he threw games to let his friend win. It's cheating, it's wrong, and it undermines the entire competitive spirit of the game. The punishment seems to fit to me, and he's lucky his entire career isn't ruined because of this. On the flip side, if he had just soft-played and kept his mouth shut, nothing at all would have happened to him and we wouldn't even be talking about this right now.
I'm going to use a very American example, so apologies in advance to the non-Americans -- in Football, when it gets down to playoff time, there's usually a game between a team that's already in the playoffs with their seed locked no matter what, and a team that desperately needs the win to get into the playoffs. Usually, the team that's already in the playoffs will rest their starters in the 2nd half, or even after the first quarter, to preserve them for the games that matter. You'll have the occasional pundit say something about how the team was just sort of "let into" the playoffs, but most people don't care about it. But if the other team just came right out and said "oh yea, we let them win because we like them better than xxx team", like some dumbass 2nd-stringer on the team does every once in a while, it brings up a huge shitstorm about the competitiveness of the teams, and they start imposing all of the rules and penalties they have in place for it.
Long story short -- yes, it happens, it probably happens a LOT more than we realize because people are smart enough to keep their mouths closed about it. Let the punishment stand, and hopefully it will keep it from happening so much in the future. We have to take the integrity of the game seriously if we truly want Starcraft 2 taken seriously as a sport, e- or otherwise.
On November 18 2011 02:37 Glioburd wrote: He didn't cheated, just helped a friend. He doesn't deserve punishment.
He didn't cheat that is true, but he did give a win to his friend which in itself is wrong in competitive game such, no especially as Starcraft. Whether he deserves his punishment depends on your personal morals and views of the situation and I would say that he completely deserved it, I was more surprised that it wasn't more severe in fact. Despite that CoCa is still a great player and this was a huge mistake, but mistakes should never be overlooked and avoiding punishment would mean that they would "potentially" do it again.
You do know that most progamers have fixed matches like this but they just weren't caught right? When there's isnt anything to win for you except for a few dollars and the other guy can earn quite a lot it sounds normal to me to just let the other guy win if he's a friend. I would do the same thing as Coca did for sure.
To your second point - Coca isn't just a guy playing with his friend. Playing Starcraft 2 is Coca's job. He has a responsibility to his fans, to his team, and to his tournament to act in a professional manner as befits his choice of profession. Part of that responsibility is to play the best he possibly can, and not throw games where he is clearly in the lead. If Coca violates that responsibility - even if he violates that responsibility to help a friend - he needs to take his knocks. In this particular case, the benefit for Byun was sufficiently small that I think Coca's behavior speaks more to a significant lack of professionalism on his (and, to be fair, Byun's) part, rather than some deep-felt desire to help a friend in need.
To your first point - I question the validity of your claim that "most" progamers have fixed matches like this (if you have data to support such a conclusion, I would very much like to see it). That said, any progamer who throws a match during a tournament deserves to be penalized for his or her unprofessional behavior. If E-Sports is going to continue to grow, it can't just be an "Old Boys' Club" - it needs standards of professional behavior for its participants that are enforced.
On November 18 2011 03:36 sunman1g wrote: i absolutely do not agree with the punishment nor the reaction. absolutely ridiculous if you ask me
Do you disagree with the idea that progamers need to be professional in their behavior, especially when engaged in a tournament? If not, do you believe that Coca's decision to leave a game he had won simply because the other player asked him was professional?
All this for wanting to go to a third match in an otherwise not so important tournament? Don't get me wrong, I love the Taeja Weekly, as it is one of the few Korean-based tournaments that airs in a reasonable time frame. And I love Taeja Diamond for putting on such a great tournament.
But as it stands I feel the punishment is too widespread for the crime. The ban from the weeklies is very reasonable and the most sensible.
As for dropping out from Code S (still not sure if this was voluntary or not), I feel conflicted on that: While the ESV KRW is it's own tournament, one of the biggest assets it presents is a Code A spot (connecting ESV<-->GOM). Even though the recent format changes have made the spot less valuable, it still is one of the larger rewards. However, since Coca is Code S and has no use for this spot (much like Taeja), it can be reasoned that the tournament ban is not enough. While I do not feel that it's the most fitting punishment, (even Chae seems to agree that the punishment shouldn't step outside of the tournament in which the offense was made); it's not as bad as it seems considering the new format. Losing Code S is much like not being seeded into a MSL/OSL, you have to play through the prelims, in order to get dumped into the main tournament; to a player of Coca's skill, this wouldn't be considered a horrible setback. *Note: yes I am indeed implying that the drop from Code S may have been pressured (by Slayers, not GOM).
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team.
he got what he deserved, he is a code S player, taking part in the most important tournament currently in sc2, to throw a game to allow a friend to get a easier way into code A and maybe code S is wrong. People are working their asses off in korea to get into code A and code S, so for him to try to help a friend get in is wrong, the honour and integrity of the tournament is important. Not only that but also that of the teams they represent, korean teams are well known to struggle for sponsorship. Can u imagine how a major company would feel to find out a player of coca's level was throwing games and was representing them and their brand badly, im sure they could pull their sponsorship in a heart beat and leave slayers with nothing.
On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote: However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team.
the removal from the house is not permanent. otherwise they would have just released him from the team.
i don't get the sense that the people crying about how kicking him out from the house is extreme have followed BW and their teams, so i shall elaborate.
players who went on large slumps were sometimes sent home from the practice house to get their shit together. it's not unprecedented. hell, even Bisu was sent home to recover physically and mentally during one of his slumps early in his SKT1 career.
if you are willing to send a player home for a while because they're playing badly, what makes you think they won't be doing that when a player has done something as shortsightedly retarded and damaging to the team as a whole, like what coca did?
On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote: All this for wanting to go to a third match in an otherwise not so important tournament? Don't get me wrong, I love the Taeja Weekly, as it is one of the few Korean-based tournaments that airs in a reasonable time frame. And I love Taeja Diamond for putting on such a great tournament.
But as it stands I feel the punishment is too widespread for the crime. The ban from the weeklies is very reasonable and the most sensible.
As for dropping out from Code S (still not sure if this was voluntary or not), I feel conflicted on that: While the ESV KRW is it's own tournament, one of the biggest assets it presents is a Code A spot (connecting ESV<-->GOM). Even though the recent format changes have made the spot less valuable, it still is one of the larger rewards. However, since Coca is Code S and has no use for this spot (much like Taeja), it can be reasoned that the tournament ban is not enough. While I do not feel that it's the most fitting punishment, (even Chae seems to agree that the punishment shouldn't step outside of the tournament in which the offense was made); it's not as bad as it seems considering the new format. Losing Code S is much like not being seeded into a MSL/OSL, you have to play through the prelims, in order to get dumped into the main tournament; to a player of Coca's skill, this wouldn't be considered a horrible setback. *Note: yes I am indeed implying that the drop from Code S may have been pressured (by Slayers, not GOM).
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team.
him being out of code s, out of team house and demoted to team b only tell half the story. everything on this thread is speculation, we dont know the actual reason behind the punishment unless there's some press release by slayers. the team is lead by boxer, one who lead skt1, i'm sure he knows what he is doing when it comes to operating a professional starcraft team.
On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote: However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team.
the removal from the house is not permanent. otherwise they would have just released him from the team.
i don't get the sense that the people crying about how kicking him out from the house is extreme have followed BW and their teams, so i shall elaborate.
players who went on large slumps were sometimes sent home from the practice house to get their shit together. it's not unprecedented. hell, even Bisu was sent home to recover physically and mentally during one of his slumps early in his SKT1 career.
if you are willing to send a player home for a while because they're playing badly, what makes you think they won't be doing that when a player has done something as shortsightedly retarded and damaging to the team as a whole, like what coca did?
Exactly. There are zero people in here understanding the inner workings of Slayers. No one knows how they interact with each other, no one knows what exactly they told him, and no one knows what quality of relationship is between them. All we know is that Boxer is an experienced team leader that has both lead and built strong teams.
Second, if anything, it would be the decision of Cella, since he is the head coach and responsible of roster. If Coca's future developtment was to be utterly destroyed by a formal 2 month pause with possibility to regain his former status, it leaves the doubt wether he was made of the right kind of material Slayers is looking for.
On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote: All this for wanting to go to a third match in an otherwise not so important tournament? Don't get me wrong, I love the Taeja Weekly, as it is one of the few Korean-based tournaments that airs in a reasonable time frame. And I love Taeja Diamond for putting on such a great tournament.
But as it stands I feel the punishment is too widespread for the crime. The ban from the weeklies is very reasonable and the most sensible.
As for dropping out from Code S (still not sure if this was voluntary or not), I feel conflicted on that: While the ESV KRW is it's own tournament, one of the biggest assets it presents is a Code A spot (connecting ESV<-->GOM). Even though the recent format changes have made the spot less valuable, it still is one of the larger rewards. However, since Coca is Code S and has no use for this spot (much like Taeja), it can be reasoned that the tournament ban is not enough. While I do not feel that it's the most fitting punishment, (even Chae seems to agree that the punishment shouldn't step outside of the tournament in which the offense was made); it's not as bad as it seems considering the new format. Losing Code S is much like not being seeded into a MSL/OSL, you have to play through the prelims, in order to get dumped into the main tournament; to a player of Coca's skill, this wouldn't be considered a horrible setback. *Note: yes I am indeed implying that the drop from Code S may have been pressured (by Slayers, not GOM).
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team.
him being out of code s, out of team house and demoted to team b only tell half the story. everything on this thread is speculation, we dont know the actual reason behind the punishment unless there's some press release by slayers. the team is lead by boxer, one who lead skt1, i'm sure he knows what he is doing when it comes to operating a professional starcraft team.
In all fairness, most of this was taken directly from thisisgame article. And mostly all I only wrote this in mind with direct statements form Gayeon, Boxer, and Coca in mind.
Like I said Coca states dropping from Code S was his decision. I do not know if his decision was influenced by an outside party, and I most likely never will. However, I personally feel that it was pressured, taking into account the statements from both GOM press and Diamond; neither of which mention anything about punishment outside of the Weekly.
And I don't doubt Boxer, but as heralded by everyone (including Boxer, three words into his statement), the wounds from the match-fixing scandal are still healing. And in Korea, image is everything pretty important.
Edit: And to address the team ban thing: I never said it was permanent, I merely meant that it is more than likely going to be long enough to interfere with the qualification for the next GSL. It is also different than being sent home for rest while on a slump, in every way (except being at home).
I think the response is certainly disproportionate to the offense committed. But it was unfortunately necessary to set the precedent for future cases; if even such a benign incident like this, which is really just 2 buddies bsing with each other, is penalized this harshly, in theory REAL offenses would follow with a much worse penalty, whatever that might be.
Really, I think the worst thing was the lack of respect they showed for the tournament, treating it more like they just met each other on B.net and wanting to screw around a bit.
On November 17 2011 23:00 ishboh wrote: i think that is completely reasonable that he be taken from code S and for him to have to re-earn his spot. match fixing is serious business.
If he is willing to throw a match to help a friend get into code S, then he deserves to have his code S status taken away.
Please read the whole thread before posting please. Nothing you said is true and its only adding to the misinformation already floating around these threads.
i read the entire OP. as well as the other thread which describes what exactly happened in that game with the translations. (i did not read through all 14 pages of this thread however.
my opinion does not change. It WAS match fixing. Yeah, coca might not have thrown that 3rd game, but that doesn't matter at all, because he should have already won the series. the fact is, Byun was going to lose the match and because of coca's INTENTIONAL loss, Byun won the match. that is matchfixing. I don't care how you try to portray it, as long as a player throws even ONE game intentionally, the entire results of the match are thrown off.
I guess he didn't have his code S spot 'taken' from him, but it does say in the other thread that he has forfeited it. he has also been taken off slayers A team. I still don't know what part of what I said was misinformed...if there is something I missed please let me know exactly what part it was, but unless the other thread has straight up LIES in the OP I'm pretty sure my understanding of the situation is pretty good.
On November 18 2011 02:37 Glioburd wrote: He didn't cheated, just helped a friend. He doesn't deserve punishment.
He didn't cheat that is true, but he did give a win to his friend which in itself is wrong in competitive game such, no especially as Starcraft. Whether he deserves his punishment depends on your personal morals and views of the situation and I would say that he completely deserved it, I was more surprised that it wasn't more severe in fact. Despite that CoCa is still a great player and this was a huge mistake, but mistakes should never be overlooked and avoiding punishment would mean that they would "potentially" do it again.
You do know that most progamers have fixed matches like this but they just weren't caught right? When there's isnt anything to win for you except for a few dollars and the other guy can earn quite a lot it sounds normal to me to just let the other guy win if he's a friend. I would do the same thing as Coca did for sure.
Do you have ANY proof to back up your claim of progamers doing this "all the time?"
On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote: All this for wanting to go to a third match in an otherwise not so important tournament? Don't get me wrong, I love the Taeja Weekly, as it is one of the few Korean-based tournaments that airs in a reasonable time frame. And I love Taeja Diamond for putting on such a great tournament.
But as it stands I feel the punishment is too widespread for the crime. The ban from the weeklies is very reasonable and the most sensible.
As for dropping out from Code S (still not sure if this was voluntary or not), I feel conflicted on that: While the ESV KRW is it's own tournament, one of the biggest assets it presents is a Code A spot (connecting ESV<-->GOM). Even though the recent format changes have made the spot less valuable, it still is one of the larger rewards. However, since Coca is Code S and has no use for this spot (much like Taeja), it can be reasoned that the tournament ban is not enough. While I do not feel that it's the most fitting punishment, (even Chae seems to agree that the punishment shouldn't step outside of the tournament in which the offense was made); it's not as bad as it seems considering the new format. Losing Code S is much like not being seeded into a MSL/OSL, you have to play through the prelims, in order to get dumped into the main tournament; to a player of Coca's skill, this wouldn't be considered a horrible setback. *Note: yes I am indeed implying that the drop from Code S may have been pressured (by Slayers, not GOM).
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team.
him being out of code s, out of team house and demoted to team b only tell half the story. everything on this thread is speculation, we dont know the actual reason behind the punishment unless there's some press release by slayers. the team is lead by boxer, one who lead skt1, i'm sure he knows what he is doing when it comes to operating a professional starcraft team.
Edit: And to address the team ban thing: I never said it was permanent, I merely meant that it is more than likely going to be long enough to interfere with the qualification for the next GSL. It is also different than being sent home for rest while on a slump, in every way (except being at home).
there are 6 GSLs a year. missing code S for the next one won't be the end of his career. he's talented enough.
the removal does not they are not going to cut off communications with him altogether - i imagine they (slayers leadership) want him to show them that he does in fact learn from this mistake and have him work to gain their trust back. this is what the removal from the teamhouse indicates. actually being inside the teamhouse is has more symbolic meaning than many may realize.
i also seriously doubt they've placed any kind of practice embargo on him that doesn't allow him to practice with other teammates. that would be detrimental to their (slayers') own interests.
in short, i highly doubt that this will somehow lead to a deterioration of coca's play. in a world where meeting other progamers on ladder is ridiculously easy, at least.
i also doubt this punishment will last more than a month.
Koreans have a history of blowing things like this way, WAY out of proportion. What coca did, every team has done at some point, only a lot more discrete.
On November 18 2011 04:49 ishboh wrote:I still don't know what part of what I said was misinformed...if there is something I missed please let me know exactly what part it was, but unless the other thread has straight up LIES in the OP I'm pretty sure my understanding of the situation is pretty good.
On November 18 2011 05:00 hifriend wrote: Koreans have a history of blowing things like this way, WAY out of proportion. What coca did, every team has done at some point, only a lot more discreet.
please elaborate on said history, thanks, before you lump koreans into one group.
On November 18 2011 04:33 crawlingchaos wrote: Really, I think the worst thing was the lack of respect they showed for the tournament, treating it more like they just met each other on B.net and wanting to screw around a bit.
This is exactly true. This is their biggest "offense". And they got a very fair penalty for it - ban from the Weekly until January. The rest of the reactions look very absurd to anyone who actually follows and loves the Weekly.
I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS.
Edit: as I learnt by my own mistake very recently what you do or say when you are in a professional team directly reflects on the team itself. Every player carries huge responsibilities towards the team and when they make an offence they have to respond to both the community and the team. That's why this kind of punishment isn't that out of proportion, even if the poor CocA just did a mistake lightheartedly without understanding the consequences.
On November 18 2011 05:21 aTnClouD wrote: I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS.
It's just sad to make Coca an example on "how to not behave", or maybe harsh is the word im looking for. Judging from the chat between Coca and Byun he didn't really seem to have a master scheme other than "i dont need to win you go ahead". Did he gain any money from it? no. Did he gain anything personally from it? no.
Just punish him somehow, let him know you can't do that, ban from ESW or whatever its called, but pulling him out from GSL is to me way too harsh... At least i think that decision alone should be up to GSL and not the players themselves. In my opinion the coaches should do as much as they can to protect their player, and it didn't seem like they did in this case.
On November 18 2011 05:21 aTnClouD wrote: I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS.
It's just sad to make Coca an example on "how to not behave", or maybe harsh is the word im looking for. Judging from the chat between Coca and Byun he didn't really seem to have a master scheme other than "i dont need to win you go ahead". Did he gain any money from it? no. Did he gain anything personally from it? no.
Just punish him somehow, let him know you can't do that, ban from ESW or whatever its called, but pulling him out from GSL is to me way too harsh... At least i think that decision alone should be up to GSL and not the players themselves. In my opinion the coaches should do as much as they can to protect their player, and it didn't seem like they did in this case.
You seem to be suggesting he would not know that visibly arranging the result of a game is inappropriate.
I think SlayerS made the correct decision for Coca's career. After enduring such a severe punishment, Coca is absolved of his wrongdoings in the eyes of just about everyone. Off-stage and out of the spotlight for a few months, there's less exposure for Coca, fewer casters talking about his scandal during banter in a match, etc. In a few months, he can come back and people will be excited to see him play on stage again. For a true professional gamer, one's career should be more valuable than the immediate opportunities for success.
Had he gotten off with a slap on the wrist, some would question the integrity of the team and involved tournament organizers. A punishment that considered Coca's extenuating circumstances (youth, friendship, practice opportunities) without also considering the damage that his actions did on a broader scale would be too light.
On November 18 2011 04:49 ishboh wrote:I still don't know what part of what I said was misinformed...if there is something I missed please let me know exactly what part it was, but unless the other thread has straight up LIES in the OP I'm pretty sure my understanding of the situation is pretty good.
So there was no intention to help a team-mate "help to get to Code S" at all.
ah ok thank you for the clarification
Edit: wait...there maybe a code A spot still on the line, its just for the monthly winner, not the weekly winner. see here
and the way you get to play in the monthly is to do well in the weekly tournaments. so yeah, in a way coca was still helping byun have a better chance at getting that code A spot. assuming they have one a code A spot for this monthly as well (the aforementioned code A spot was for last monthly's winner)?
On November 18 2011 05:21 aTnClouD wrote: I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS.
It's just sad to make Coca an example on "how to not behave", or maybe harsh is the word im looking for. Judging from the chat between Coca and Byun he didn't really seem to have a master scheme other than "i dont need to win you go ahead". Did he gain any money from it? no. Did he gain anything personally from it? no.
Just punish him somehow, let him know you can't do that, ban from ESW or whatever its called, but pulling him out from GSL is to me way too harsh... At least i think that decision alone should be up to GSL and not the players themselves. In my opinion the coaches should do as much as they can to protect their player, and it didn't seem like they did in this case.
You seem to be suggesting he would not know that visibly arranging the result of a game is inappropriate.
It's more than inappropriate, its stupid, really stupid. That's why i think he didn't understand what he is even doing. He doesn't get the conseqences of his actions.
If it wasn't that visible and out in the open it's to me alot worse, but this was so out and open that it just shows that he didn't know it was wrong.
The BW matchfixing was illegal because there was money involved. This type of match "dumping" is not even against the rules of the GSL. There should only be intern consequences.
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
This kind of thinking really bothers me. All people can see is right in front of their eyes.
First of all, match fixing is when someone throws a game, period. It's not required that there be an obvious gain for someone. So this is match fixing.
Second, how do you even know that Coca doesn't have anything to gain? What if Byun and Coca made an agreement that Coca would do this and then the next time they play, Byun would give him the series? (this kind of match fixing agreement does happen in other sports). You don't know, maybe Slayers knows, maybe they don't but they want to cut it off before these small agreements turn into a big web of lies.
And the "other people do it too so it's ok" argument is a pretty bad one.
On November 17 2011 19:55 SpoR wrote: I think this is all kind of stupid to be honest. Players in group stages always throw games in favor of helping certain players through or denying other players through to help them or their teammates in the next bracket stages of tournies since BW. Just because they actually typed it out now it's all the sudden a big deal.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what is the issue but if that's it its kind of dumb and should be left alone. no punishment.
it's impressive how consistently retarded you are, you never miss a beat
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
This kind of thinking really bothers me. All people can see is right in front of their eyes.
No, sometimes things aren't right in front of your eyes, and you have to put them in full context to comprehend them. Next thing you know, you end up throwing in jail someone who was shooting a gun at another man, even if they were just filming a movie, because: "shooting people is bad, okay??!?!".
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
This kind of thinking really bothers me. All people can see is right in front of their eyes.
No, sometimes things aren't right in front of your eyes, and you have to put them in full context to comprehend them. Next thing you know, you end up throwing in jail someone who was shooting a gun at another man, even if they were just filming a movie, because: "shooting people is bad, okay??!?!".
Your analogy is... incomprehensibly bad. It doesn't fit this situation at all, has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and you even went so far as to only quote one line from the guy's post then claim superiority.
Also at what FUCKING POINT is someone going to shoot another person on a movie set then be put to jail? That's some seriously convoluted bullshit you've spouted there. Don't even try to say "It's a rhetorical question" or something of that ilk, it's just bad. Half assing an analogy doesn't all of a sudden legitimize your point.
What context is there for match throwing that is legitimate, especially in the midst of a tournament? Was his family held hostage by byun's cronies and he had to throw the game to save their lives? I'm betting not. There is no justification for this behavior, especially in a tournament whose results have real consequences.
Nothing makes this okay. The response was just and while it may have impacts on Coca, whether or not it has long term impacts on him is for him to decide. He can make the most of this time and practice his ass off and come right back, but if he's going to practice anti-competitive behavior in a spectator sport he doesn't deserve to be a part of it.
On November 18 2011 07:36 latan wrote: CoCa represents slayers and he forfeited a tournament win, that is a win that would've counted for slayers too, not just him.
He didn't forfeit a win, a win was still in his grasp for game 3.
Making a bo3 an actual 3 matches doesn't seem too harmful for a weekly.
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
No they dont. Because it would actually be ridiculously stupid to just forfeit a game that you have a chance to win. No matter how small tht percentage is. Because obviously you still get that map you want even after you lost. If you're arguing that people need to conserve their stamina for a single bo3 then those people need to uninstall the game cause they're not made out to play it competetively.
The argument that he did this for practise is also ridiculous. Coca can get the same or better practise outside of tournaments. He wouldn't actually lose a tournament game on purpose to get a practise game against another player.
I agree that this is not match fixing though. It's stupid and illogical but its not match fixing.
On November 18 2011 08:33 ETisME wrote: hong kong gave 7 goals to china for them to get through the world cup qualifiers, no one (even in hk) spoke out against that.
I think it's wrong to fix a match, sc2 football etc.. I mean, I know this has happened before in football, and has gotten a lot of attention sometimes, but u never see a team get disqualified for having forfeited a game, or say fixed it so that the other team could get in.
I think throwing him out of code S is absolutely wrong, in any way. A clear warning, and maybe some intern punishment/fine imo.
I don't see a poll button saying Removed From E-Sports.. Doesnt matter who he is.. he doesnt deserve to play at all for doing stuff like that.
He shouldn't be allowed to play any MAJOR tourney period.. I thought this thread was made because the punishment wasnt strong enough... What are you guys thinking :S:S
On November 18 2011 08:47 MMello wrote: I don't see a poll button saying Removed From E-Sports.. Doesnt matter who he is.. he doesnt deserve to play at all for doing stuff like that.
He shouldn't be allowed to play any MAJOR tourney period.. I thought this thread was made because the punishment wasnt strong enough... What are you guys thinking :S:S
Extremism at its finest. I think his punishment was quite fair. Some people think it was unfair, and demand a lesser punishment. You demand that he should have no career as a pro-gamer for 1 incident which he may not have considered to be bad when he did it. That's pretty fucked. That's like making 1 mistake in a job and never being able to do anything related to that line of work for the rest of your life. What the fuck, bro?
First off, I do not agree with what they did. What they did was flat out wrong, as I'm sure most of you would agree to that. But, I think that the way they handled this incident wasnt in a professional manner and they acted rather hastily. I think a suitable punishment would have been if they had just suspended the two from the tournament instead of, again, acting hastily. They probably acted hastily because of all the sudden drama that was drawn into the matter and the team felt pressured into doing something like they did. At the same time, they are setting an example because of the harsh punishment. Who would want to match fix now, seeing Cocoa being kicked off the team? So yeah, I don't know. I suppose its bad but it also has a good side to it.
On November 18 2011 08:33 ETisME wrote: hong kong gave 7 goals to china for them to get through the world cup qualifiers, no one (even in hk) spoke out against that.
are you saying match fixing is ok? or are you saying this isn't news worthy? it happens in boxing too, it happens in many, many sports but its all done discreetly. if caught, there are consequences since it is a bad thing to begin with. byun and coca are facing the consequences for their action, nothing more nothing less.
i have no idea why people are saying, "its done all the time" and somehow think its alright.
korean starcraft scene is not like the foreign starcraft scene when it comes to professionalism.
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
This kind of thinking really bothers me. All people can see is right in front of their eyes.
No, sometimes things aren't right in front of your eyes, and you have to put them in full context to comprehend them. Next thing you know, you end up throwing in jail someone who was shooting a gun at another man, even if they were just filming a movie, because: "shooting people is bad, okay??!?!".
Your analogy is... incomprehensibly bad. It doesn't fit this situation at all, has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and you even went so far as to only quote one line from the guy's post then claim superiority.
Also at what FUCKING POINT is someone going to shoot another person on a movie set then be put to jail? That's some seriously convoluted bullshit you've spouted there. Don't even try to say "It's a rhetorical question" or something of that ilk, it's just bad. Half assing an analogy doesn't all of a sudden legitimize your point.
What context is there for match throwing that is legitimate, especially in the midst of a tournament? Was his family held hostage by byun's cronies and he had to throw the game to save their lives? I'm betting not. There is no justification for this behavior, especially in a tournament whose results have real consequences.
Nothing makes this okay. The response was just and while it may have impacts on Coca, whether or not it has long term impacts on him is for him to decide. He can make the most of this time and practice his ass off and come right back, but if he's going to practice anti-competitive behavior in a spectator sport he doesn't deserve to be a part of it.
It's not in the midst of the tournament. It's first round of a replay-cast event, and of 16 matches only 6 were played, the others were walkovers, because the opponent didn't show up. Coca had busy schedule with the GSL and was going to forfeit too anyway, but wanted 3 games of practice vs Terran (next opponent was Protoss), so after winning game 2 he conceded to play one more ZvT. They disrespected the event by sending the replays, because this is more of a training session. But the end result in the bracket was going to be the same if they didn't send replays and just announce that Coca forfeits. They probably thought it was going to be entertaining, because the games were not staged, and fully competitive - and they were, for those of us who actually watched the event.
I hope my post didn't sound condescending, and apologize if it did. I understand it's very hard to put in perspective something without being aware of the details. It wasn't a comment addressed specifically at the author of the quote, but at the bulk of the posters who assume everything is clear, because they've only scratched the surface of the story.
Speaking as captain hindsight, I think ESV should have just given the Code A spot to the highest person that is not already in the GSL, similar to how MLG does it. None of this would have ended up happening.
As for Coca, I think he decided to throw the game because he would feel bad if Byun didn't get the Code A spot and the spot was wasted.
On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote: I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain.
It clearly WAS match fixing though. The outcome of the game was not determined by the actual play. Coca had the game won as far as I know, and left as a favor. It is literally the definition of match fixing. It doesn't matter what gain was or was not involved. He definitely deserves some sort of punishment. Letting this go unpunished opens the door for it to happen more in the future, and we can't be sitting here questioning the integrity of every game we watch because that would simply ruin Starcraft as a spectator sport.
On November 18 2011 10:19 HydroOwl wrote: Coca had the game won as far as I know, and left as a favor.
He won the game clearly with no simulation, and very clearly left, in order to get one more game of ZvT practice for his all-Terran GSL group, in the absence of his Terran teammates.
And if the purpose of this was "match-fixing" - they could have not sent any replays, and the result was going to be the same.
On November 18 2011 09:59 slappy wrote: throwing a game in a TOURNAMENT is stupid. More practice? ROFL, pros do this all day in their PRACTICE HOUSE
His Terran teammates were all busy with another event, he says that in chat too.
What was wrong here was disrespecting the event and treating it like a practice session. That's why the punishment from the event is justified - ban until January from the Weekly. All the other reactions were made in a rush, before proper investigation.
On November 18 2011 10:05 Boozerr wrote: Speaking as captain hindsight, I think ESV should have just given the Code A spot to the highest person that is not already in the GSL, similar to how MLG does it. None of this would have ended up happening.
As for Coca, I think he decided to throw the game because he would feel bad if Byun didn't get the Code A spot and the spot was wasted.
Pretty sure he throw the game because Byun asked him to throw that one game so Byun would have a second shot at beating Coca. Other than it being totally unprofessional and being thoughtless, everything else was done in the spirit of the moment and out of the fun they are having while playing with each other. As many people have said before, the biggest offense that they made during that game was being disrespectful of the tournament. All this talk about match fixing is just totally ridiculous.
EPT
