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On November 17 2011 10:16 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote:
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment. He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break
So when parents say "You're grounded until I said otherwise", and that's fucked up? Wow, that was like the softest punishment you can possibly think of. Or you want him to say "Tee hee, he's just a kid, we're sorry, that won't happen again".
How do you think that kind of apology will hold up in the future? As long as they're young and they can do stupid stuff and get away with it? What happens if all other young progamers think because they are good and young, they can get away with anything? You say Boxer is wrong when he thinks of the team when he gave that punishment, then did Coca think of the team when he did that action?
Maybe it's just mindset from different culture or something, but as an Asian, I'm truly at shocked when people think this kind of punishment is too harsh
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Can I also ask who won the series in the end?
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On November 17 2011 10:33 Dakure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:20 SpiZe wrote:Who cares if the tournament is big or small, "mean something" or not, huge prize pool or not. He let his opponent win in a COMPETITIVE game in the middle of a TOURNAMENT. How would you react if the same happened during the final of the GSL. That would seem and feel wrong. If it's wrong there then it probably is elsewhere too. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning. No they don't. They may think they are going to loose a map but when they happen to win it and are literally inside their opponents base they don't go "well I think you should win that" and leave. It's still a tournament with money on the line, not a CG. They may consider it practice but its still not. It's a tournament. It reminds me of the incident during a GO4SC2 Cup involving Laukyo where his coach was observing the game and helping him DURING THE GAME with COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of what Laukyo's opponent was doing. They were punished and their main defense was that they considered the GO4SC2 cup as training for Dreamhack I think it was... no matter what you consider it, it's still a friggin tournament with money on the line. Now that being said, do I agree with the punishments he was given ? Yes. Does he deserved more ? I don't think so. Is it comparable to the BW matchfixing incident ? Not even close. The same didn't happen to WhiteRa, he started 0-2 in a series because of the result of a previous serie that he didn't play, it's nowhere near the same. But thats a complete different case. What exactly happened in the WhiteRa incident and why is it 'nowhere near the same?'
+ Show Spoiler +On November 17 2011 10:30 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:27 midgettoes wrote:On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread? Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament. I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more? 'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me. During an MLG, WhiteRa was knocked down to the loosers bracket by a guy called Gimix due to him being too late for his match. Gimix was later knocked down in the looser's bracket himself where he eventually met WhiteRa. Due to MLG's rule, Gimix started 0-2 depsite them not even having played a series before (since WhiteRa was DQed). Gimix then proceeded to worker rush WhiteRa two times in a row and evened the score 2-2. Then he played as normal. WhiteRa won the series 4-2
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Team should handle it as they see fit AND tournament organizers should handle it as they see fit.
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In the Super Smash Bros scene they don't match fix, but IF BOTH players agree (final), they will split the pot and they will continue with a competitive match. Whoever wins, both get an even split prize pool.
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On November 17 2011 10:34 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:27 midgettoes wrote:On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread? Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament. I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more? 'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me. OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'. You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
I think you need to learn more about how responsibility is determined. A person is not responsible for a secondary negative effect if that effect was not their immediate aim, and if their primary aim was not a problematic action that does not arise directly from the negative effect.
Example 1: A person forfeits a tournament due to schedule issues. Primary effect is that he is freed up, schedule wise. Secondary effect is that his opponent advances. However, having a freer schedule does not directly follow from his opponent gaining the win, but from not attending in the first place. There is no causal link between the opponent winning and him having a better schedule.
Example 2: Coca forfeits a game because he wants to play another. Primary effect is that he gets another game, secondary that Byun gets a win. However, the only way he gets another game is by allowing Byun to win. There is a direct causal link of letting Byun win -> play another game, and thus Coca is fully responsible.
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On November 17 2011 10:34 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:27 midgettoes wrote:On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread? Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament. I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more? 'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me. OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'. You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca offered to let Byun win the game at the start of 2nd game, saying he's only there to practice. And polls are useless when the community reactions are based on inaccurate information, such as yours.
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On November 17 2011 10:35 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:33 colingrad wrote:On November 17 2011 10:30 ohampatu wrote:On November 17 2011 10:28 Dfgj wrote:On November 17 2011 10:26 Numy wrote:On November 17 2011 10:23 kikimama wrote:
It needed to be severe in order to prevent others from even thinking about it. The punishment has to heavily outweigh the chances of not getting caught. So you sacrifice one or two people just so you don't have other people being completely blatant about forfeiting a game? So potentially all the people that have organised this before and will still organise things afterwards don't get anything but two kids get butchered? I guess we aren't really looking for justice, merely lynching. That would be implying other people found doing the same wouldn't be equally punished. If that's the case, the unfairness is that they aren't being handled appropriately. I have mentioned 2 instances of people throwing games on purpose. Those players were not injured. I also believe Demuslim through a game to Idra, in which case nothing happened. So yes, i will imply other people do this, because its true. to be fair though Coca and Byun were punished by their teams not the league in which they were playing. i believe the GSL worded their investigation more into language then the actual throwing of the game. had EG or the teams involved in the white-ra issue punished their players then you could draw a much better comparison in treatment Exactly. Thats what i mean. Even GSL treated this less than the teams did. They were more concerned with the language that was broadcasted to the viewers. Im not speaking out again GSL, im speaking out against SlayerS making the wrong punishment, and since they made a bad punishment, Prime has to set an example similar to theirs so that SlayerS doesn't look to harsh.
for me personally i feel that Boxer as the one who is essentially the owner and provided a place for coca to stay eat and train and then to have this player do something so dumb on a broadcasted game for whatever reason is justified. i dont think hes going to be banished from the house and he's still on SlayerS for now and still will have access to all the practice partners who are probably way better than byun. and btw do you have a link to the full chat logs? i didnt know if was posted in the other thread or not
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This is stupid, people throw tournament results all the time for other people to be given opportunities if they know their team doesn't care about results in a certain tournament.
He definitely shouldn't have talked about it, but to extract yourself from Code S, the hardest league to qualify for in the world, may be a career ending decision. If the team wanted to reprimand him, or forced him into this decision, I understand, but the only people who should care should be ESV, whose reputation was at stake.
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to be honest. anyone saying that it's no big deal and that it's trivial do not get the "spirit" of the tournament/game. If I remember correctly, winning the tournament give winner a spot in GSL's code A. Now, I would say that this is "trivial" if the prize of the tournament doesnt matter to any of the players (meaning they are both in the GSL and doesn't need the prize). But the other player, in this case, does not have a GSL spot; therefore, the prize matters to him. And because the prize matter to one of the players, this case can not be "trivial". To CocA, this tournament may be trivial. But it is not trivial to the other player; therefore, this case is not trivial. The tournament is a competition that awards the winner the coveted spot in the GSL. Emphasis on competition. If CocA, needed practice, keep winning and play more games in the tournament or just practice in the team house.
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On November 17 2011 10:35 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:16 ohampatu wrote:On November 17 2011 10:13 canikizu wrote:
Why are we judging them? What SlayerS and Prime did is like what our parents do to us when we did something wrong, whether with good intention or just plain stupidity. It doesn't matter if you think the matter is serious, or the teams are just trying to save face, or pressure from the netizens, in the end of the day, it's up to parents to teach kids what is right and wrong, and you can't really tell them what they did are wrong.
As a parent. I have no problem telling other parents when they are royally fucking up. If i owned a team and was a prominent figure. I would tell boxer to his face that he royally fucked up the punishment. He should be acting as a Father Figure in this case. This is a child, and needs to be treated as such. Correct his ways, make him be more like the emporer, fix the situation. Thats not what is happening. Instead CoCa is being made an example of just so Boxer's reputation isn't hurt? Please, gimme a break So when parents say "You're grounded until I said otherwise", and that's fucked up? Wow, that was like the softest punishment you can possibly think of. Or you want him to say "Tee hee, he's just a kid, we're sorry, that won't happen again". How do you think that kind of apology will hold up in the future? As long as they're young and they can do stupid stuff and get away with it? What happens if all other young progamers think because they are good and young, they can get away with anything? You say Boxer is wrong when he thinks of the team when he gave that punishment, then did Coca think of the team when he did that action? Maybe it's just mindset from different culture or something, but as an Asian, I'm truly at shocked when people think this kind of punishment is too harsh
LOL @ You.
They didn't ground CoCa. Look at SC2 progress as a set of stairs. 250 being the top where Nestea and MVP are sitting. CoCa was well over half way there, and possibly closer that even that on a good stretch near theh top. He was made to go to the very bottom, and told to wait there untill he could start climbing again.
Also, your 'parent and grounding' thing has absolutely nothing to do with what i said, nor anything to do with the punishment CoCa received. I never said they should just apologize or anything, its like your took 2 words i said, and then created your own example out of thin air.
Speaking of Cultures, maybe its an Asian thing, but possibly ruining a kids future because of one fuckup is generally not something i look kindly to, so yes i disagree. Idk, maybe its an American thing, but when i punish my son, i dont do it in a way that could ruin whatever it is he is doing. If my son does something stupid fishing, i dont punish him so badly that he'll never want to fish again. Nobody is thinking about CoCa here. They are only thinking about Boxer's Image, The Teams Image, Esports Image. SICKENS ME. Think about the fucking child.
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should just be a temporary ban from the tournament, and being chewed out by cella.
that should honestly be enough... this is getting way overblown
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On November 17 2011 10:42 Neoattitude wrote:
to be honest. anyone saying that it's no big deal and that it's trivial do not get the "spirit" of the tournament/game. If I remember correctly, winning the tournament give winner a spot in GSL's code A. Now, I would say that this is "trivial" if the prize of the tournament doesnt matter to any of the players (meaning they are both in the GSL and doesn't need the prize). But the other player, in this case, does not have a GSL spot; therefore, the prize matters to him. And because the prize matter to one of the players, this case can not be "trivial". To CocA, this tournament may be trivial. But it is not trivial to the other player; therefore, this case is not trivial. The tournament is a competition that awards the winner the coveted spot in the GSL. Emphasis on competition. If CocA, needed practice, keep winning and play more games in the tournament or just practice in the team house.
People like you are what makes these conversations bad.
Please dont 'try to remember' what you think its about.
For your information, this tournament meant jack shit, there was no code a spot on the line.
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You can't force someone to try, but there has to be a repercussion for throwing away the match like CocA. The punishment had to be strict considering the incident in brood war. It's setting precedence if anything like this were to happen in the future.
I also feel that the incident at assembly should have been handled in a more authoritarian manner. It was EU though, so it's understandable why nothing (or much) was done at the time. WhiteRa incident is also completely different and shouldn't be used in the same context as this.
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On November 17 2011 10:41 Holcan wrote:
This is stupid, people throw tournament results all the time for other people to be given opportunities if they know their team doesn't care about results in a certain tournament.
He definitely shouldn't have talked about it, but to extract yourself from Code S, the hardest league to qualify for in the world, may be a career ending decision. If the team wanted to reprimand him, or forced him into this decision, I understand, but the only people who should care should be ESV, whose reputation was at stake.
Why on earth do you assume Slayers, who has a reputation to maintain and sponsor support, would not care about what one of their representatives does?
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On November 17 2011 10:34 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:27 midgettoes wrote:On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread? Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament. I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more? 'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me. OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'. You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
How is the fact he would win the next series easily (and who can garuantee that in a tournament anyway?) justification for wanting a full series? The idea of a tournament is to progress and win. What Coca did was against the whole concept of a tournament (best players wins). As other people have said, you are simply misinformed. If Coca wanted ZvT practice he had the full army of SlayerS' terran to practice against - some of the best TvZers in the world. This excuse is pathetic - he deserved it.
Also, comparing this to the White-Ra incidient is ridiculous. Someone getting DQed and then the opposition effectively saying 'let's make this an even playing field rather than exploit the extended series' vs someone 'wanting more practice' (which I still don't even believe is the reason) is so different. If you can't see that... well... /shrug
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On November 17 2011 10:34 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:27 midgettoes wrote:On November 17 2011 10:05 ohampatu wrote:
I wish people stop calling this match fixing, its not. This is the same thing that happened to WhiteRa, in which his opponent was praised a Hero and even interviewed. Matchfixing would imply that he through the match for some kinda gain. There was no gain. Just wanted a Game 3. Pro's do this all the time, they plan around their maps, and will lose/create stupid builds/not try on maps they dont plan on winning.
Does this really warrant a new thread? Also, this OP is horribly misrepresenting the facts. There was a gain. It was not a gain for Coca, but it was gain for his friend, Byun. It gave him a 2nd chance at staying alive in the tournament. I'm unfamiliar with the White-Ra incident. Maybe explain some more? 'Just wanted a Game 3'. Then you go on to explain he 'didn't try' on the map because he didn't plan on winning? He was up 100 supply and about to a-move into byun's base when he left. There is no doubt at all he had the game won. Why would he want a 3rd game if he was taking the tournament seriously? Your claim in the OP is ridiculous to me. OP of other thread didn't have polls. I didn't want to put polls in the middle of the OP, and the OP didn't seem to be online in the discussion still. So yes, i warranted that it needed a new thread. Polls are the easiest way to show the 'community reaction'. You are misrepresenting the facts. Have you read the full chat log? and not just the couple screenshots? Coca's next opponent was a protoss player (if he won). He knew that he would win that because he is boss at zvp. He was up 1-0, and winning the second game decisively. He agreed to leave the game so that they could play a third match so he could have zvt practice. He did not leave the game because he wanted Byun to win. I think people need to realize that. He didn't leave to let another player win, he left so he could finish the full set before going on to his protoss opponent.
On November 16 2011 20:12 anrimayu wrote:Majority saying they deserve life time ban, with only a handful saying the current punishment is enough. I haven't seen any response saying this was too much. There's so much ugly hatred and threats toward the two involved that it doesn't deserve any translation.
Community polls are quite useless as half the people who vote have little to no idea about what transpired and go with the majority or go along misinformed opinions. Case in point being a ton of people still saying that Coca dropped the game since he wanted Byun to have an easy Code A spot which isn't true since this set of weeklies had not relation with Code A spot.
In addition, the OP of this thread completely ignores the fact that different cultures have different reactions towards such instances. This case just magnifies this cultural difference between Korean and foreign scene where the punishment is too lenient according to Koreans while it is too tough according to foreigners as demonstrated by the post linked above. Considering that the reaction of the local Korean community is more relevant to the teams (due to sponsors, etc.), it doesn't surprise me that they dealt the harsh punishment.
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First, you say they were "children", and at least imo, that's not a excuse, Coca isn't 13, he is 17 he is old enough to know right and wrong.
Second you say "he didn't throw the set, he just wanted more practice in a tournament that doesn't mean anything." , he won the second game so the series was over, by giving that game away and then losing the third game, he did throw the set, and don't say the tournament dosen't mean anything, no one was pointing a gun at Coca to play, if he is playing in a tournament you just don't throw games away, they are professional players, with team that have sponsors.
You also say Coca wanted a third game and that pro's do that all the time on maps they dont plan on winning...they don't throw games away, they will still play and if they can win they will, they will not quit right when game starts.
If he wanted to practice against terran, his team has lots of them or he could have pm byun after the series...
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I do believe the punishment was handled pretty well. Although it would have satisfied me if he just got DQ'ed for the running GSL season and not for an unknown amount of time.
People who try to defend coca by bringing in other examples (e.g. worker rushing, nuke and crazy batshit stuff etc.) should just keep in mind, that at least on the surface they kept to the tournamentrules, they simply "decided" to go with an unorthodox tactic which lost them the game. But CoCa and Byun did not even make an effort to "hide" the fact, that they were "fixing" the game. They discussed it in gamechat (which is stupid beyond any means anyway) and pretty much publicly stated: "We do not give a shit about this tournament and it's credibility, we will just mess around for a while."
If you argue, that a small weekly tournament could matter next to nothing in the wide scheme of events, I must say, that such a double-standard will ruin eSports. From "ESV weekly is unimportant" to "well Code A is unimportant since only code S matters" might not be too far if you follow that trail of thought and then you are in a lot of trouble.
Looking at it from the mentioned perspective the reaction of ESV and GSL are in my opinion plausible. Temporary Bans from playing in the respective tournaments. The reaction from the Teams was pretty straightforward too, they had to react if they wanted to make clear that any kind of "matchfixing" is not approved by them (and after the entire savior matter, one can easily see, why it is important to them to show that "matchfixing" is an outrageous issue)
Sure they are both young and probably did not think about the consequences, but that's the hardships and up&downs of life. They will be back eventually and CoCa will no doubt be back in GSL and the Slayers A-Team in no time after the punishments are lifted.You can say it was a harsh but necessary education measure for young adults (seriously stop calling 17 year olds kids....they know what is "right" or "wrong"), to ensure that their future in eSports will not come to harm through stupidity (or naivety one can say), which result in utter follies.
TL;DR: Punishments ok, don't worry about the players, after they learnt their lesson, they will be back.
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The ban from ESV is correct, because due to a bit of silliness, they indirectly disrespected the tournament. ESV reacted very precisely - the ban is only until January, no overreaction. They will also work on new rules and format, which is great.
(One advice: Like the GSL, you should forbid chat, except for clear conceding like "gg", or administrative issues.)
The other reactions were due to investigation for "match-fixing" (even they put it in quotes, because nobody knew what the exact situation was). After it is fully confirmed that the case doesn't really fall in the category of "match-fixing", and was more of a stupid way to forfeit a match due to scheduling conflicts, they should redeem Coca with some statement, and at least let him back directly in Code A, if not Code S. Though I have no doubt he can get the whole way back regardless.
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EPT
