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On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:
All this for wanting to go to a third match in an otherwise not so important tournament? Don't get me wrong, I love the Taeja Weekly, as it is one of the few Korean-based tournaments that airs in a reasonable time frame. And I love Taeja Diamond for putting on such a great tournament.
But as it stands I feel the punishment is too widespread for the crime. The ban from the weeklies is very reasonable and the most sensible.
As for dropping out from Code S (still not sure if this was voluntary or not), I feel conflicted on that: While the ESV KRW is it's own tournament, one of the biggest assets it presents is a Code A spot (connecting ESV<-->GOM). Even though the recent format changes have made the spot less valuable, it still is one of the larger rewards. However, since Coca is Code S and has no use for this spot (much like Taeja), it can be reasoned that the tournament ban is not enough. While I do not feel that it's the most fitting punishment, (even Chae seems to agree that the punishment shouldn't step outside of the tournament in which the offense was made); it's not as bad as it seems considering the new format. Losing Code S is much like not being seeded into a MSL/OSL, you have to play through the prelims, in order to get dumped into the main tournament; to a player of Coca's skill, this wouldn't be considered a horrible setback.
*Note: yes I am indeed implying that the drop from Code S may have been pressured (by Slayers, not GOM).
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team.
him being out of code s, out of team house and demoted to team b only tell half the story. everything on this thread is speculation, we dont know the actual reason behind the punishment unless there's some press release by slayers. the team is lead by boxer, one who lead skt1, i'm sure he knows what he is doing when it comes to operating a professional starcraft team.
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death sentence
User was warned for this post
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On November 18 2011 03:56 zeehar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team. the removal from the house is not permanent. otherwise they would have just released him from the team. i don't get the sense that the people crying about how kicking him out from the house is extreme have followed BW and their teams, so i shall elaborate. players who went on large slumps were sometimes sent home from the practice house to get their shit together. it's not unprecedented. hell, even  Bisu was sent home to recover physically and mentally during one of his slumps early in his SKT1 career. if you are willing to send a player home for a while because they're playing badly, what makes you think they won't be doing that when a player has done something as shortsightedly retarded and damaging to the team as a whole, like what coca did?
Exactly. There are zero people in here understanding the inner workings of Slayers. No one knows how they interact with each other, no one knows what exactly they told him, and no one knows what quality of relationship is between them. All we know is that Boxer is an experienced team leader that has both lead and built strong teams.
Second, if anything, it would be the decision of Cella, since he is the head coach and responsible of roster. If Coca's future developtment was to be utterly destroyed by a formal 2 month pause with possibility to regain his former status, it leaves the doubt wether he was made of the right kind of material Slayers is looking for.
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On November 18 2011 04:00 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:
All this for wanting to go to a third match in an otherwise not so important tournament? Don't get me wrong, I love the Taeja Weekly, as it is one of the few Korean-based tournaments that airs in a reasonable time frame. And I love Taeja Diamond for putting on such a great tournament.
But as it stands I feel the punishment is too widespread for the crime. The ban from the weeklies is very reasonable and the most sensible.
As for dropping out from Code S (still not sure if this was voluntary or not), I feel conflicted on that: While the ESV KRW is it's own tournament, one of the biggest assets it presents is a Code A spot (connecting ESV<-->GOM). Even though the recent format changes have made the spot less valuable, it still is one of the larger rewards. However, since Coca is Code S and has no use for this spot (much like Taeja), it can be reasoned that the tournament ban is not enough. While I do not feel that it's the most fitting punishment, (even Chae seems to agree that the punishment shouldn't step outside of the tournament in which the offense was made); it's not as bad as it seems considering the new format. Losing Code S is much like not being seeded into a MSL/OSL, you have to play through the prelims, in order to get dumped into the main tournament; to a player of Coca's skill, this wouldn't be considered a horrible setback.
*Note: yes I am indeed implying that the drop from Code S may have been pressured (by Slayers, not GOM).
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team. him being out of code s, out of team house and demoted to team b only tell half the story. everything on this thread is speculation, we dont know the actual reason behind the punishment unless there's some press release by slayers. the team is lead by boxer, one who lead skt1, i'm sure he knows what he is doing when it comes to operating a professional starcraft team.
In all fairness, most of this was taken directly from thisisgame article. And mostly all I only wrote this in mind with direct statements form Gayeon, Boxer, and Coca in mind.
Like I said Coca states dropping from Code S was his decision. I do not know if his decision was influenced by an outside party, and I most likely never will. However, I personally feel that it was pressured, taking into account the statements from both GOM press and Diamond; neither of which mention anything about punishment outside of the Weekly.
And I don't doubt Boxer, but as heralded by everyone (including Boxer, three words into his statement), the wounds from the match-fixing scandal are still healing. And in Korea, image is everything pretty important.
Edit: And to address the team ban thing: I never said it was permanent, I merely meant that it is more than likely going to be long enough to interfere with the qualification for the next GSL. It is also different than being sent home for rest while on a slump, in every way (except being at home).
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This is such a tough call, but losing his Code S spot seems a bit harsh
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I think the response is certainly disproportionate to the offense committed. But it was unfortunately necessary to set the precedent for future cases; if even such a benign incident like this, which is really just 2 buddies bsing with each other, is penalized this harshly, in theory REAL offenses would follow with a much worse penalty, whatever that might be.
Really, I think the worst thing was the lack of respect they showed for the tournament, treating it more like they just met each other on B.net and wanting to screw around a bit.
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It's not our place to decide how he's punished. He's a Slayers player, Slayers makes the decision.
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On November 17 2011 23:03 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 23:00 ishboh wrote:
i think that is completely reasonable that he be taken from code S and for him to have to re-earn his spot. match fixing is serious business.
If he is willing to throw a match to help a friend get into code S, then he deserves to have his code S status taken away. Please read the whole thread before posting please. Nothing you said is true and its only adding to the misinformation already floating around these threads.
i read the entire OP. as well as the other thread which describes what exactly happened in that game with the translations. (i did not read through all 14 pages of this thread however.
my opinion does not change. It WAS match fixing. Yeah, coca might not have thrown that 3rd game, but that doesn't matter at all, because he should have already won the series. the fact is, Byun was going to lose the match and because of coca's INTENTIONAL loss, Byun won the match. that is matchfixing. I don't care how you try to portray it, as long as a player throws even ONE game intentionally, the entire results of the match are thrown off.
I guess he didn't have his code S spot 'taken' from him, but it does say in the other thread that he has forfeited it. he has also been taken off slayers A team. I still don't know what part of what I said was misinformed...if there is something I missed please let me know exactly what part it was, but unless the other thread has straight up LIES in the OP I'm pretty sure my understanding of the situation is pretty good.
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On November 18 2011 02:51 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 02:48 [17]Purple wrote:On November 18 2011 02:37 Glioburd wrote:
He didn't cheated, just helped a friend. He doesn't deserve punishment. He didn't cheat that is true, but he did give a win to his friend which in itself is wrong in competitive game such, no especially as Starcraft. Whether he deserves his punishment depends on your personal morals and views of the situation and I would say that he completely deserved it, I was more surprised that it wasn't more severe in fact. Despite that CoCa is still a great player and this was a huge mistake, but mistakes should never be overlooked and avoiding punishment would mean that they would "potentially" do it again. You do know that most progamers have fixed matches like this but they just weren't caught right? When there's isnt anything to win for you except for a few dollars and the other guy can earn quite a lot it sounds normal to me to just let the other guy win if he's a friend. I would do the same thing as Coca did for sure.
Do you have ANY proof to back up your claim of progamers doing this "all the time?"
That seems made up. Citation?
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On November 18 2011 04:22 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 04:00 jinorazi wrote:On November 18 2011 03:46 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:
All this for wanting to go to a third match in an otherwise not so important tournament? Don't get me wrong, I love the Taeja Weekly, as it is one of the few Korean-based tournaments that airs in a reasonable time frame. And I love Taeja Diamond for putting on such a great tournament.
But as it stands I feel the punishment is too widespread for the crime. The ban from the weeklies is very reasonable and the most sensible.
As for dropping out from Code S (still not sure if this was voluntary or not), I feel conflicted on that: While the ESV KRW is it's own tournament, one of the biggest assets it presents is a Code A spot (connecting ESV<-->GOM). Even though the recent format changes have made the spot less valuable, it still is one of the larger rewards. However, since Coca is Code S and has no use for this spot (much like Taeja), it can be reasoned that the tournament ban is not enough. While I do not feel that it's the most fitting punishment, (even Chae seems to agree that the punishment shouldn't step outside of the tournament in which the offense was made); it's not as bad as it seems considering the new format. Losing Code S is much like not being seeded into a MSL/OSL, you have to play through the prelims, in order to get dumped into the main tournament; to a player of Coca's skill, this wouldn't be considered a horrible setback.
*Note: yes I am indeed implying that the drop from Code S may have been pressured (by Slayers, not GOM).
However, the entire team house deal seems to be far too much. If the choice is made for the player to be removed from Code S, then fine. But, to remove said player from his practice environment? Are you really trying to sabotage his ability to legitimately re-qualify? It is absolutely way too much on the part of any team, especially if Slayers plans on retaining Coca. This entire debacle was spurred by Coca's lack of players to practice with, which is the team's (Slayers) duty to provide for it's players. So their best idea is to put him in the exact same position? Some intelligent person said "Boxer's job right now should be acting as an older brother: guiding Coca, helping him to learn from his mistakes, and also help to fix them." Instead he basically gets Harry Pottered, locked under the stairs, out of sight out of mind. I've lost a little bit of respect for Slayers as a team. him being out of code s, out of team house and demoted to team b only tell half the story. everything on this thread is speculation, we dont know the actual reason behind the punishment unless there's some press release by slayers. the team is lead by boxer, one who lead skt1, i'm sure he knows what he is doing when it comes to operating a professional starcraft team. Edit: And to address the team ban thing: I never said it was permanent, I merely meant that it is more than likely going to be long enough to interfere with the qualification for the next GSL. It is also different than being sent home for rest while on a slump, in every way (except being at home).
there are 6 GSLs a year. missing code S for the next one won't be the end of his career. he's talented enough.
the removal does not they are not going to cut off communications with him altogether - i imagine they (slayers leadership) want him to show them that he does in fact learn from this mistake and have him work to gain their trust back. this is what the removal from the teamhouse indicates. actually being inside the teamhouse is has more symbolic meaning than many may realize.
i also seriously doubt they've placed any kind of practice embargo on him that doesn't allow him to practice with other teammates. that would be detrimental to their (slayers') own interests.
in short, i highly doubt that this will somehow lead to a deterioration of coca's play. in a world where meeting other progamers on ladder is ridiculously easy, at least.
i also doubt this punishment will last more than a month.
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Koreans have a history of blowing things like this way, WAY out of proportion. What coca did, every team has done at some point, only a lot more discrete.
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On November 18 2011 04:49 ishboh wrote:I still don't know what part of what I said was misinformed...if there is something I missed please let me know exactly what part it was, but unless the other thread has straight up LIES in the OP I'm pretty sure my understanding of the situation is pretty good.
There wasn't a Code A spot up for grabs here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15
So there was no intention to help a team-mate "help to get to Code S" at all.
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On November 18 2011 05:00 hifriend wrote:
Koreans have a history of blowing things like this way, WAY out of proportion. What coca did, every team has done at some point, only a lot more discreet.
please elaborate on said history, thanks, before you lump koreans into one group.
also, fixed your usage of discreet for you.
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On November 18 2011 04:33 crawlingchaos wrote:
Really, I think the worst thing was the lack of respect they showed for the tournament, treating it more like they just met each other on B.net and wanting to screw around a bit. This is exactly true. This is their biggest "offense". And they got a very fair penalty for it - ban from the Weekly until January. The rest of the reactions look very absurd to anyone who actually follows and loves the Weekly.
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I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS.
Edit: as I learnt by my own mistake very recently what you do or say when you are in a professional team directly reflects on the team itself. Every player carries huge responsibilities towards the team and when they make an offence they have to respond to both the community and the team. That's why this kind of punishment isn't that out of proportion, even if the poor CocA just did a mistake lightheartedly without understanding the consequences.
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On November 18 2011 05:21 aTnClouD wrote:
I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS.
It's just sad to make Coca an example on "how to not behave", or maybe harsh is the word im looking for. Judging from the chat between Coca and Byun he didn't really seem to have a master scheme other than "i dont need to win you go ahead". Did he gain any money from it? no. Did he gain anything personally from it? no.
Just punish him somehow, let him know you can't do that, ban from ESW or whatever its called, but pulling him out from GSL is to me way too harsh... At least i think that decision alone should be up to GSL and not the players themselves. In my opinion the coaches should do as much as they can to protect their player, and it didn't seem like they did in this case.
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On November 18 2011 05:26 Mellon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 05:21 aTnClouD wrote:
I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS. It's just sad to make Coca an example on "how to not behave", or maybe harsh is the word im looking for. Judging from the chat between Coca and Byun he didn't really seem to have a master scheme other than "i dont need to win you go ahead". Did he gain any money from it? no. Did he gain anything personally from it? no. Just punish him somehow, let him know you can't do that, ban from ESW or whatever its called, but pulling him out from GSL is to me way too harsh... At least i think that decision alone should be up to GSL and not the players themselves. In my opinion the coaches should do as much as they can to protect their player, and it didn't seem like they did in this case.
You seem to be suggesting he would not know that visibly arranging the result of a game is inappropriate.
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I think SlayerS made the correct decision for Coca's career. After enduring such a severe punishment, Coca is absolved of his wrongdoings in the eyes of just about everyone. Off-stage and out of the spotlight for a few months, there's less exposure for Coca, fewer casters talking about his scandal during banter in a match, etc. In a few months, he can come back and people will be excited to see him play on stage again. For a true professional gamer, one's career should be more valuable than the immediate opportunities for success.
Had he gotten off with a slap on the wrist, some would question the integrity of the team and involved tournament organizers. A punishment that considered Coca's extenuating circumstances (youth, friendship, practice opportunities) without also considering the damage that his actions did on a broader scale would be too light.
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On November 18 2011 05:00 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 04:49 ishboh wrote:I still don't know what part of what I said was misinformed...if there is something I missed please let me know exactly what part it was, but unless the other thread has straight up LIES in the OP I'm pretty sure my understanding of the situation is pretty good. There wasn't a Code A spot up for grabs here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15So there was no intention to help a team-mate "help to get to Code S" at all.
ah ok thank you for the clarification
Edit:
wait...there maybe a code A spot still on the line, its just for the monthly winner, not the weekly winner.
see here
and the way you get to play in the monthly is to do well in the weekly tournaments. so yeah, in a way coca was still helping byun have a better chance at getting that code A spot. assuming they have one a code A spot for this monthly as well (the aforementioned code A spot was for last monthly's winner)?
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On November 18 2011 05:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 05:26 Mellon wrote:On November 18 2011 05:21 aTnClouD wrote:
I think he got more than he deserved but this sets a nice precedent for everyone, especially the players, to take eSport more seriously. He will keep playing and he will do even better next year, even if this hurts him it won't be for long. I would say overall the whole situation is positive and there was really no other better way to handle this for team SlayerS. It's just sad to make Coca an example on "how to not behave", or maybe harsh is the word im looking for. Judging from the chat between Coca and Byun he didn't really seem to have a master scheme other than "i dont need to win you go ahead". Did he gain any money from it? no. Did he gain anything personally from it? no. Just punish him somehow, let him know you can't do that, ban from ESW or whatever its called, but pulling him out from GSL is to me way too harsh... At least i think that decision alone should be up to GSL and not the players themselves. In my opinion the coaches should do as much as they can to protect their player, and it didn't seem like they did in this case. You seem to be suggesting he would not know that visibly arranging the result of a game is inappropriate.
It's more than inappropriate, its stupid, really stupid. That's why i think he didn't understand what he is even doing. He doesn't get the conseqences of his actions.
If it wasn't that visible and out in the open it's to me alot worse, but this was so out and open that it just shows that he didn't know it was wrong.
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EPT
