SC2gears latest release can calculate your old or new APM. Use that if you want to see your "old" APM value.
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Information and discussion regarding the APM changes in 1.4.0 keeps getting drowned out by the balance changes in the PTR thread, so for the record, here's how things work before and after so everyone understands what's going on.
"Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes."
Imagine that you have 2 and 4 bound to drones and 5 to your hatch. And let m be moving your selected drone around:
Before the patch: 245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made) 2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued) 52m52m52m = 9 actions (1 for each selection and each move issued)
After the patch: 245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored) 2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued) 52m52m52m = 6 actions (1 for the initial "5" selection, 1 for each move issued)
Practically speaking, this means your average APM will be significantly lower depending on how much you spam throughout the game (and in general, average APM across the player base will be significantly lower). This could be a good thing in that it removes wasteful selection spam from the beginning of the game out of the statistic. But at the same time, it could be a bad thing because now the statistic no longer measures your "tapping" (in the day9 sense) throughout the game.
The one objective statement we can make about this change is that APM in sc2 would now fundamentally mean something different than BW. Whether this is good thing is most likely a matter of opinion.
EDIT (thanks to dani` for correcting my original edit): external programs (e.g., sc2gears's realtime APM meter) that rely on starcraft 2 feeding them APM values directly will very likely reflect these changes. However, all actions are contained in replay files so a program could calculate your "old" APM value given a replay.
EDIT 2: new poll!
Poll: How much has your apm gone down with patch 1.4
>40% (314)
44%
20-30% (121)
17%
<10 % (107)
15%
30-40% (91)
13%
10-20% (83)
12%
716 total votes
Your vote: How much has your apm gone down with patch 1.4
There will be some initial "shock" as players see their lower APM, but it will be good long term, as it's a more realistic measure.
The reason for tapping is to keep yourself in that fast paced mindset, fingers always moving. You'll still want to do that and it will still help you maintain a higher APM. It just won't artificially increase APM.
Don't care, tbh. People's relative speed will still be the same. Just interested to see how big of a difference it'll make with average players vs pros.
to be honest, the only difference this will make is that people can no longer flaunt their e-peen when a replay of theirs is seen and the apm tab is shown
Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
The only thing this will be helpful for is for people like merz who abuse the system, and for Vibe as well, since he does jack all with his 500 APM lol and everyone knows it. The thing is is that 'everyone' already knows to ignore the obvious spammers because they are playing shitty despite having 300+ APM.
Selecting buildings for unit/research progress, screen switching and constantly checking control groups is part of starcraft, don't know why it shouldn't be factored in anyway.
Its a silly change considering Blizzard hasn't fixed the APM counter to be accurate to start with.
I will still be spamming regardless, you need to warm your hands up.
On August 26 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote: How does the game know what to count as 1 action?
I dont really care about APM, but APM = actions per minute, regardless of spam, i dont see the point in this.
Exactly this. If blizzard cared that much, they should create an EAPM counter and leave the APM counter in.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Spamming, no matter how important or not, should be shown. APM is defined as any actions such as a mouse click or keyboard button press. Removing/ changing the apm is just dumb because it wont show people's real apm.
Why doesn't blizzard just work on balance and making good maps instead of making dumb changes like this? Who honestly complains that the apm bars are bad in sc2?
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Its not impossible programmatically, what are you talking about. Just make APM based on real minutes, that's it, nothing more to it.
I don't really care a ton about APM, but in terms of it being a meaningful statistic, I think this is a bad change. As you mentioned with the "tapping", a lot of actions that go on throughout the game would be ignored, even though they aren't necessarily wasteful actions. Many players "spam" their hotkeys frequently to keep an eye on production of units, upgrades, buildings, health of units, etc, however, these actions would be ignored because no real "action" is being taken as far as the game is concerned. By that, I mean there is no move or attack commands issued or anything like that, and the simple action of selecting a unit is ignored.
This will actually provide higher APMs to players that are more inefficient with their actions compared to someone who is very quick and efficient. For example, spamming a move command over and over will yield a higher APM than someone who clicks move once and hits their destination spot on the first time. So overall, it doesn't really matter, but I still think it should be reverted unless they want the APM stat to be truly irrelevant.
On August 26 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote: How does the game know what to count as 1 action?
I dont really care about APM, but APM = actions per minute, regardless of spam, i dont see the point in this.
This imo. Also don't care about this since it does not win you games. What is an action and what is not? Why is a certain action not an action and so on? Pretty incoherent if you ask me. But then again, who cares...
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
Please explain. I assume you're referring to checking the energy/cooldown of various things (queen, CC for mules, warp gate cool downs)...in which case your action is still counted. Knowing that you can group things together (especially with an unused hotkey), it still only requires one action and doesn't need to be counted as anything else.
From someone with really low APM i think it is good. I am low level and don't have the best multi tasking but i don't waste any of my actions either. No mass clicking when i move units no moving between selections faster than i can determine if the gates are ready to cycle gain etc
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Multiple by like what, x1.3 or divide by .7 (not sure which), and you are done.
lol not that hard. I don't care if something takes 103.67 seconds, you can show it as 104 seconds and it will be fine. Or just make the change for APM so that people stop thinking people in BW were unequivocally faster.
On August 26 2011 22:34 Staples1 wrote: From someone with really low APM i think it is good. I am low level and don't have the best multi tasking but i don't waste any of my actions either. No mass clicking when i move units no moving between selections faster than i can determine if the gates are ready to cycle gain etc
If you "spammed", or 'tapped', your eAPM would also increase, you might even become a step above what you consider 'low level'.
For whatever reason, I never realized spamming hotkeys for selections alone counted as APM. Just broke 1000 APM vs a computer - omg, I'm so good. >__>
In all seriousness, I don't really care one way or another. But if anything, it's probably a good thing to have a more useful metric than one that's clouded by selection spam. It makes the number you see for APM correspond more closely to the thing it's supposed to be measuring.
It does suck that there won't be an obvious conversion between BW and SC2 APM, but it's not like "BW vs SC2 APM" player comparisons could ever be taken completely seriously. With fewer "spammy" actions required by SC2's UI, SC2 APM will naturally be lower in many moments of the game anyway.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Multiple by like what, x1.3 or divide by .7 (not sure which), and you are done.
lol not that hard. I don't care if something takes 103.67 seconds, you can show it as 104 seconds and it will be fine. Or just make the change for APM so that people stop thinking people in BW were unequivocally faster.
this includes build time for Everything in the game.. from units to upgrades etc, everything will have a decimal on it, you cant hide numbers from players like that. theres a reason why people say that a 0.2 movement speed on a unit is the most imbalanced thing ever etc.
there is no disadvantage in this calculation for apm as everyone is affected, so just dont compare it to BW and theres no difference.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Multiple by like what, x1.3 or divide by .7 (not sure which), and you are done.
lol not that hard. I don't care if something takes 103.67 seconds, you can show it as 104 seconds and it will be fine. Or just make the change for APM so that people stop thinking people in BW were unequivocally faster.
this includes build time for Everything in the game.. from units to upgrades etc, everything will have a decimal on it, you cant hide numbers from players like that. theres a reason why people say that a 0.2 movement speed on a unit is the most imbalanced thing ever etc.
there is no disadvantage in this calculation for apm as everyone is affected, so just dont compare it to BW and theres no difference.
Don't compare it because BW uses the correct calculation and SC2 does not?
You are thinking about this too hard. SC2 just needs to use real minutes, its literally a 5 minute change. Period.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Multiple by like what, x1.3 or divide by .7 (not sure which), and you are done.
lol not that hard. I don't care if something takes 103.67 seconds, you can show it as 104 seconds and it will be fine. Or just make the change for APM so that people stop thinking people in BW were unequivocally faster.
this includes build time for Everything in the game.. from units to upgrades etc, everything will have a decimal on it, you cant hide numbers from players like that. theres a reason why people say that a 0.2 movement speed on a unit is the most imbalanced thing ever etc.
there is no disadvantage in this calculation for apm as everyone is affected, so just dont compare it to BW and theres no difference.
Don't compare it because BW uses the correct calculation and SC2 does not?
different game, different mechanics.. even for apm calculation.
i dont know how anyone still hasnt gotten used to this...
there is no correct or wrong calculation for it considering it is an entirely new game.
Doesn't really affect me, and I don't see why it should bother others. Yes, Blizzard is kind of changing the definition of the term itself, but does it really matter as long as we can still check out the effective APM? Tapping between groups is good for keeping an eye on your production, but it's not like this change is going to stop you from doing it, is it?
Pointless change tbh. If some ppl love to spam and watch their apm skyrocket why would you take it from them? As said before, apm should be actions per minute whether its spam or not its still an action. Cant see many ppl being happy about this change but i can easily imagine dissapointment of spammers whose apm will go down from 200 to 50 :D
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
The only thing this will be helpful for is for idiots like merz who abuse the system, and for Vibe as well, since he does jack all with his 500 APM lol and everyone knows it. The thing is is that 'everyone' already knows to ignore the obvious spammers because they are playing shitty despite having 300+ APM.
can someone please at least warn this guy, such an unneccessary insult towards vibe and merz
Filtering out the spamming is a good thing in my regard. When the observers check the APM, they want to see how fast a player can execute commandos, not how fast a player can spam.
Now they only need to make one blizzard minute = one normal minute and everything is fine. ^^
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Multiple by like what, x1.3 or divide by .7 (not sure which), and you are done.
lol not that hard. I don't care if something takes 103.67 seconds, you can show it as 104 seconds and it will be fine. Or just make the change for APM so that people stop thinking people in BW were unequivocally faster.
this includes build time for Everything in the game.. from units to upgrades etc, everything will have a decimal on it, you cant hide numbers from players like that. theres a reason why people say that a 0.2 movement speed on a unit is the most imbalanced thing ever etc.
there is no disadvantage in this calculation for apm as everyone is affected, so just dont compare it to BW and theres no difference.
Don't compare it because BW uses the correct calculation and SC2 does not?
different game, different mechanics.. even for apm calculation.
i dont know how anyone still hasnt gotten used to this...
there is no correct or wrong calculation for it considering it is an entirely new game.
BW APM uses minutes. SC2 uses game "minutes" which aren't minutes, Blizzard just calls it that.
I would care less if Blizzard changed APM to APGM (actions per game minute) or what it is now EAPGM (effective actions per game minute), and Blizzard also showed APM alongside. But Blizzard redefining culturally accepted norms just because they can is going too far.
On August 26 2011 22:42 AugustDreams wrote: I'm fine with this change, as long as it can determine the difference between spamming and actual actions then I say go for it.
It doesn't though, that's what a lot of people don't realise. If I select a building in order to see production so I can macro better, or screen switch to look out for harass, thats a useful action.
If I spam right click over and over in the same spot, that is a useless action. Blizzard is redefining what are useful and useless actions, by removing selections as actions, and keeping right click spam.
On August 26 2011 22:43 JustPassingBy wrote: Filtering out the spamming is a good thing in my regard. When the observers check the APM, they want to see how fast a player can execute commandos, not how fast a player can spam.
Now they only need to make one blizzard minute = one normal minute and everything is fine. ^^
Nada switches screens all the time and ctrl groups and spams his workers. If he defends a blue-flame drop because of his reaction speed, that's due to him "spamming" all the time.
Nada, Flash, Jaedong they are all huge "spammers". They are also the best players in the history of BW.
No matter what Blizz says our APM is, it doesn't really matter because SC2gears can tell you what it is for real-time and for Blizz time. So doesn't matter.
I don't get why people are talking as if this change would make them play better. Does having an APM of 300+ make you gather resources at 2x speed? Does having an APM lower than 10 make your units produce at 2x the production time?
On August 26 2011 22:46 Hossinaut wrote: No matter what Blizz says our APM is, it doesn't really matter because SC2gears can tell you what it is for real-time and for Blizz time. So doesn't matter.
SC2gears mines information provided by the game. So (presumably) if the metric for APM changes in-game, then that will be reflected by sc2gears outside of the game. The only thing sc2gears does that's novel is do the calculation to translate from in-game time to real-time via this table:
Tbh, I think it's silly. As others of said, they should of left it alone. Actions per minute is...well, actions per minute. Whether somebody is spamming the shit out of keys or whether they are actually useful is no argument to change it.
Like someone else said, just add "EAPM" underneath the original meter if this is such an issue to blizzard.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Multiple by like what, x1.3 or divide by .7 (not sure which), and you are done.
lol not that hard. I don't care if something takes 103.67 seconds, you can show it as 104 seconds and it will be fine. Or just make the change for APM so that people stop thinking people in BW were unequivocally faster.
this includes build time for Everything in the game.. from units to upgrades etc, everything will have a decimal on it, you cant hide numbers from players like that. theres a reason why people say that a 0.2 movement speed on a unit is the most imbalanced thing ever etc.
there is no disadvantage in this calculation for apm as everyone is affected, so just dont compare it to BW and theres no difference.
Don't compare it because BW uses the correct calculation and SC2 does not?
different game, different mechanics.. even for apm calculation.
i dont know how anyone still hasnt gotten used to this...
there is no correct or wrong calculation for it considering it is an entirely new game.
BW APM uses minutes. SC2 uses game "minutes" which aren't minutes, Blizzard just calls it that.
I would care less if Blizzard changed APM to APGM (actions per game minute) or what it is now EAPGM (effective actions per game minute), and Blizzard also showed APM alongside. But Blizzard redefining culturally accepted norms just because they can is going too far.
On August 26 2011 22:42 AugustDreams wrote: I'm fine with this change, as long as it can determine the difference between spamming and actual actions then I say go for it.
It doesn't though, that's what a lot of people don't realise. If I select a building in order to see production so I can macro better, or screen switch to look out for harass, thats a useful action.
If I spam right click over and over in the same spot, that is a useless action. Blizzard is redefining what are useful and useless actions, by removing selections as actions, and keeping right click spam.
seriously? the reason why you are offended is because blizzard didnt add a 'G' in apm and by doing so insults the english langauge?
well i sure hope immortals get infinite health in the next patch..
I don't really get the change at all, probably one of the most stupid changes ever made.
Basicly, if somebody likes to spam and likes to look at his high APM in replays....why the hell not? It hurts nobodoy? I guess there will still be some ways to boost APM, so I seriously doubt that it will be all "realistic". For instance, does hitting the warpgate-key count? like spamming 3w (3 being nexus) to always check probes and availability of warpgates? If yes, then protoss will generally have a higher apm.
I have to think on some level Blizzard purposely wants APM to be lower across the board for psychological reasons. Someone with 40 SC2 APM probably "feels" closer to the pro with 180 SC2 APM than they would if it was 60 vs 270 even though it's relatively the same. It would also explain why they never change APM to real time.
Let's say I spent one minute typing that out. According to myself, my typing speed is 8 words per minute. According to Blizzard, it's 1 word per minute.
I quite frankly think this change is a mistake, and I have to question Blizzard's motives and thought process behind this change.
On August 26 2011 22:52 RivalryRedux wrote: I have to think on some level Blizzard purposely wants APM to be lower across the board for psychological reasons. Someone with 40 SC2 APM probably "feels" closer to the pro with 180 SC2 APM than they would if it was 60 vs 270 even though it's relatively the same. It would also explain why they never change APM to real time.
Ya I think Blizzard wouldn't change it unless it somehow benefits them. Maybe league activity or something else idk.
It means something since so many people are discussing it. So it should have some purpose for Blizzard (or Blizzard don't know wth they're doing).
Sounds like a good thing to me! The measure will now more closely represent actual "actions" per minute and will shut the spammer's mouths about their gosu apm when they realize that
1) it doesn't mean shit 2) their actual apm is in fact lower than us who don't spam but do try to make a lot of actions rapidly
It effects everyone thus there is just going to be a new definition for APM.
You going to be playing the exact same way you were before this patch, you aren't magically going to start typing with just your index finger, all that has changed is the number.
Finally, you will be able to see how good someone is at macro while microing. That's pretty much the only thing that makes APM useful, measuring if you can handle the macro while microing. It's also easier to aim for a certain APM without having to consider all the nonsense spamming.
I've been mocked for my low early game APM (45 early game, 125+ mid/late game) so I see this as a good change. plus less people will feel like they are awesome for having crazy apm spam early on
The change is dumb because it destroys all previous notions of how apm works. If we see 250 apm now we won't know what it was before. Almost have to forget all previous knowledge of apm and learn the new measure. And the benefit of the change is??? I can't think of anything.
I really like that there is "intelligent filtering", but they should change the name to eAPM then or something similar. There should be more of it too. This would give the viewers a better sense of the players "true" multitasking ability and speed.
My APM is still 120-180 even when I don't spam, this won't make your 'real APM' appear lower when you aren't spamming, so get over it egotistical noobs
It doesn't matter to me. The whole point of the spamming is to keep yourself at a quick pace throughout the game, not to artificially inflate the APM count. I do agree with a name change though, since it's not really counting all actions per minute. Effective APM probably fits better.
I have low APM, and have always ignored those who spam APM at the beginning.. so in theory a smart way to dispaly APM could be nice, even if with little importance.
However.. something which would ignore spamming the SAME control key (like 1111111) would be reasonable, but this just cuts out tabbing through groups, which should considered REAL APM.
In the end, I don't care much.. but it just seems a wrong fix.
I think they should not remove the old APM style, but rather just add the new measuring as another parameter. This would be way more helpful, because you could make comparisions between both.
I wonder if this is a reaction to people complaining about spammers. The ONLY people who I see concerned about APM are the ones who have a vendetta about losing to someone who is "spamming" actons.
This is the best change in sc2 history. The apm spam culture in the sc2 community is unbearable. I have no idea why 60 combat apm players feel the need to spam their apm to 200 at the beginning of the game. They just look like vain jackasses.
Does anyone realise that clicking between hotkeys ('tapping', day9 calls it) is how good players actually look to see the progress on their various activities? This is an integral part of the game and definitely is a measure of skill.
my apm was 180/190 before the that patch (playing on PTR) now had been lowered to 80/90, i spam but for useful reason going 4ss4s4s4s4s4s4s44s4s4s4s4 ( I play zerg) to see when larvae pops off.
I feel like the only people who would care are lower league people who feel their APM can set them a part from other lower league people. If I can beat you with 120 apm and you can spam 300 throughout the entire game who cares? Not like someone would be like "Well Player A won the match BUT Player B did have 300 APM so he's still pretty good!"
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
The only thing this will be helpful for is for idiots like merz who abuse the system, and for Vibe as well, since he does jack all with his 500 APM lol and everyone knows it. The thing is is that 'everyone' already knows to ignore the obvious spammers because they are playing shitty despite having 300+ APM.
APM counter doesnt matter. It can be even miss leading. Higher APM doesnt necessarily mean better . for all we know, the guy is just wasting apm by clicking waaayyy too much. ex. clicking on the ground 10x when only once is really enough.
Overall i don't care ... about APM, i am low as hell . But i think it would be better to have APM keep as it is (why call it APM anyway if you are filtering it) and introduce an additional item something like effective APM where you filter all kinds of things.
well the ingame apm counter is shit anyways. so as long sc2gears still counts the same apm (yes they actually use real minutes) i don't care what blizz does.
On August 26 2011 22:32 PartyBiscuit wrote: I wish APM was calculated the same way as BW, plain and simple. I dislike this change, spam or not, apm now means even less than it did before.
I am going to continue to play the same way.I don't really spam that much, except at the beginning so that I can keep my hands moving as fast as my brain wants them to. (The only reason I still do it, is because I have checked and if I don't my reaction speed goes down.)
Which is why I am a little upset, not because my 4sd223344sd4sd won't be counted as all individual actions as I scout with a Drone/Overlord and make Drones, but because I usually play better with a faster APM because I am able to mulit-task and react better, so I could check my Average APM at the end of a game to gauge if I was ready to hit the 1v1 ladder, or if I still needed more warming up. I know that I am playing average if the APM of a 20-30 minute game is is between 80-90 and know that if I am in the upper 90s I am playinng well for me. So when I watch a replay where I felt I was playing well and had 124 average APM it isn't a surprise.
It just upsets me that Blizzard is changing a feature that players use to guage themselves. Sure some people go overboard and brag about 300+ APM. Whatever, they can do that. But I use APM as a feature to use to check to see how quick I was playing and know if I just lost because I wasn't moving quick enough, not enough multi-tasking, not reacting to harass quick enough.
For the people who think that it doesn't effect anybody, just imagine if Blizzard removed the text on the left side of the screen telling you when a building is complete or changed the speed of the Game Clock. It is just a small game function that, sure, you can adjust to the change and after practice readjust your mental notes to fix something. But when it is already working, and it isn't hindering anyone at all, there is no need to fix it. "If it's not broken, don't fix it." Like many other people said, there are other things I'd rather see Blizzard working on than the coding of APM... like maps. :-/
I don't care about my APM but at least it used to measure what the name says (in-game time ofcourse). Useless and stupid change, there was nothing to fix.
Wont affect the way i spam in the beginning anyway Pointless change and it kinda goes away from the blizzard plan that everyone is a great player, which is kind of what the league cap of 100 is there for, and to have 7 different levels (bronze-GM) aswell. Now some people will look at their apm and be sad that it's too low. Don't get the change really that's it
Wanna hear a story boys? APM, before this patch, is counted by any key you press. It just so happens that holding down a key makes it press 5 times a second, and so, if you hold down ANY key, your APM will go to 450+.
Now, Little Kiddie Boyses, that will not happen and APM will remain true. What is there not to like or not care about? The fact is, nobody will be crying/saluting over some guy with 400 fake APM (cough merz). Trust me on this one, we will see a HUGE shift in APM in pros, a shift so huge it will not follow any rules. Pro APM will get halved quartered, and some Asians APM will magically double and he will be our crowned god. /rant
On August 26 2011 23:20 Neoattitude wrote: APM counter doesnt matter. It can be even miss leading. Higher APM doesnt necessarily mean better . for all we know, the guy is just wasting apm by clicking waaayyy too much. ex. clicking on the ground 10x when only once is really enough.
Except, you know, this new redefined version of "APM" STILL counts "clicking on the ground 10x" as 10 actions. It only affects selections and switches.
So, as a previous user stated, this change won't affect the players who spam click movement commands because of their inaccuracies with the mouse. In other words, it's still not an accurate measure of "EAPM" - in fact, far from it.
Yes, many pros spam movement commands as well for more accurate movements since AI pathing isn't perfect, but this new calculation does nothing to differentiate between spam clicking in one spot, or actually spamming useful movement commands.
Thus, while the control group spammers like merz/vibe will have a significant drop in APM, the silver league nub who has terrible mouse accuracy and spam clicks his movement commands to move units won't be affected at all.
Tapping to check progress bars and units is still part of your APM, if they wanted to focus purely on actions being carried out they should count that under "eAPM".
I will be curious to see if the new system gives one or two races a way higher apm then any of the other races. Terran is going to be making two units at a time out of a reactored building while im going to be warping in zealots one by one which should give double the macro apm right?
I thought from reading the patch notes that it was only the like of force returning minerals with a group of scvs/drones that was affected?For example selecting your mineral line workers and holding down c.
From my reading and understanding 4, 5, 6, 4, 5, 6, 4, 5, 6, will still be 9 actions, but 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, is 3 actions
4, S, select 8 workers, hold c, 4, S before patch is 13 and after patch is 6 ( 4 is my command centre)
Did anyone else read and understand it in this way?
I expected them to fix the timing before they fixed this.
I wish they would do away with the relic of 'faster' time and just make it 'normal' and sync it with real time. An added benefit would be the ability to actually play faster than normal, instead of having 4 degrees of slower.
Spam movement commands are more useful in BW, because of the pathing issues - if you don't continuously reset the pathing, you would see not only dragoons, but any blocked units to take very inefficient routes and not improve them as the position changes. So you need to spam the move commands. In SC2 this is a lot less useful (although there are some similar pathing problems too, sometimes), and is mostly done as a habit inherited from BW (eg: WC3 players in SC2 do it less).
On August 26 2011 23:35 Chill wrote: Should split them to APM and eAPM. We BW players have been doing this for years.
Someone from Blizzard must be a staunch believer in eAPM
I don't get why they don't just fix the game clock so apm actually is actions per minute, instead of taking it upon themselves to not count certain actions and creating a stupid arbitrary system the way eAPM did
I really don't think it's a big deal at all. I know for me personally it will not affect my play even a little bit. I will still continue to do some moderate (100ish APM) spam at the beginning of the game, just to find my rhythm. Whether that is recorded by the replay file to show off is inconsequential to me.
On August 26 2011 22:49 Plexa wrote: I don't really care, but honestly they shouldn't call it APM if they're going to filter it.
yea, the acronym stands for actions per minute. it's pretty silly to arbitrarily define what is useful and what isn't in something as neutral as actions per minute.
the change bothers me, because APM is just extra information. many people decide to use it as a way to measure some of a player's skill (including their own), but there's all this anxiety (see most of this thread) about it being used that way. the game wasn't forcing people to look at APM in a certain way before. it is now. it's a stupid change.
This feels just like another strange and useless change from Blizzard. How they came up with this idea when they have so many other flaws on their table is my question.
On August 26 2011 23:48 Detri wrote: I thought from reading the patch notes that it was only the like of force returning minerals with a group of scvs/drones that was affected?For example selecting your mineral line workers and holding down c.
From my reading and understanding 4, 5, 6, 4, 5, 6, 4, 5, 6, will still be 9 actions, but 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, is 3 actions
4, S, select 8 workers, hold c, 4, S before patch is 13 and after patch is 6 ( 4 is my command centre)
Did anyone else read and understand it in this way?
If I read it correctly going from hotkey to hotkey is only one action unless you give those hotkeys a command like move, stop, patrol ect. If you are just spamming your 4, 5 and 6 hotkeys without actually giving them a command then it counts as just one action until the cycle is broken with a command to one of the groups as far as I understand.
I just did a game and was actually surprised at how much I spammed. I don't care about APM but it was interesting to see a game where I would have ~200 apm on the last patch and on this one I only had 70. Can really show how much you actually do spam. I did laugh though when at the start of the game I had 28 apm instead of my usual 350 from box selecting my workers LOL.
"Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes."
It means repeatedly tapping a single control group and repeatedly selecting (by clicking or boxing) a unit or units (or structures) will be counted as only one action.
honestly most good players spam in game to get their fingers warmed up, used to moving fast entire game, instead of having to all of a sudden get fast when they need it to micro/macro efficiently, can't think of any other pro player that does it simply to keep their APM numbers up
i voted "dont care" because it shouldnt effect anyone...
On August 26 2011 22:49 Plexa wrote: I don't really care, but honestly they shouldn't call it APM if they're going to filter it.
yea, the acronym stands for actions per minute. it's pretty silly to arbitrarily define what is useful and what isn't in something as neutral as actions per minute.
the change bothers me, because APM is just extra information. many people decide to use it as a way to measure some of a player's skill (including their own), but there's all this anxiety (see most of this thread) about it being used that way. the game wasn't forcing people to look at APM in a certain way before. it is now. it's a stupid change.
Yea it bugs, means that something so simple as actions per minute is changed yet they don't change the name and thus confusion will start to spread since filtering actions makes it no longer "actions per minute" but "filtered actions per minute" which are two completely different things. If I just want to know how fast my hands/mouse can go I can no longer do this by looking at the raw data the apm tab supplies.
If they want to filter stuff so much they should change the name and leave unfiltered option there too since it's just adding even more information for you to use. No point in filtering while removing the raw data.
As a person who "spams APM", I think this is a good change. I will continue to cycle through my control groups like a madman, and now nobody can tell me I'm doing it just to increase my APM.
If there is a change to be made regarding APM, it is multiplying it by 1.38 in order to measure actual actions per minute. What they have now is effective actions per 43.48 seconds. Call it whatever, but APM is not the correct term.
Pros look like they are spamming but actually they are doing the exact necessary things to achieve good macro. How does DRG get his injects so good when his hatcheries aren't even in sync? He has each hatchery individually hotkeyed and cycles through each and everyone and looks at the inject bar. You have to be quite naive to think that 'he is just spamming away'. I would be surprised if progamer apm dropped all that much. People that say 'Axslav and Sjow have low apm, but ITS ALL EFFECTIVE APM' don't realise that 'IMMvp has high apm, but its all effective apm.' I would like someone to give me a replay of someone multitasking at the level of MMA or MVP with low apm.
On August 27 2011 00:04 Termit wrote: This feels just like another strange and useless change from Blizzard. How they came up with this idea when they have so many other flaws on their table is my question.
It's not like Blizzard sits down at a table and tackles one challenge at a time.
"Lets spend this week on that APM spamming issue, we need the whole company for this one."
I don't think that's how it goes down, they do a lot of things at once.
This is a psychological game. Making this change could potentially alter the way some people play. It will probably just be a mind fuck that people have to get over though.
Just APM spam enough to warm up your hands, then try to multitask as best you can. Don't know why we're trying to make a big deal out of the whole damn thing.
Redefining a key term that has been used as a statistic for over 10 years is... pointless. It's like the NBA all of a sudden saying that FG's now count only as 2-point shots. If they want to get a more accurate measurement of a different statistic, create a different name all together. Bad change - it just does not make sense.
and yet another change to make the noobs feel better, after not showing them their loses, but this time affecting all the players in showing them a truncated apm. this is getting pathetic.
On August 27 2011 00:11 Scorch wrote: If there is a change to be made regarding APM, it is multiplying it by 1.38 in order to measure actual actions per minute. What they have now is effective actions per 43.48 seconds. Call it whatever, but APM is not the correct term.
StarCraft 2 uses its own seconds, why would they use real life seconds to measure APM? They would be using two different ways of measuring in one game.
On August 27 2011 00:11 Scorch wrote: If there is a change to be made regarding APM, it is multiplying it by 1.38 in order to measure actual actions per minute. What they have now is effective actions per 43.48 seconds. Call it whatever, but APM is not the correct term.
StarCraft 2 uses its own seconds, why would they use real life seconds to measure APM? They would be using two different ways of measuring in one game.
APM is actions per minute. It's a real concept. A starcraft second is merely a multiple of a "real" second and thus is still defined in terms of a second. It's just different by a factor, there is no core difference so it's measuring the exact same thing. Since we define it in terms of a second it makes sense to use APM in terms of the action second/minute instead of the arbitrarily defined "starcraft second" because we can have an actual grasp over that number.
IF this changes the way you play then theres something wrong. However If your apm goes from 200 to 50 and the pros apm only drops by 50 then well you also have issues.
On August 27 2011 00:11 Scorch wrote: If there is a change to be made regarding APM, it is multiplying it by 1.38 in order to measure actual actions per minute. What they have now is effective actions per 43.48 seconds. Call it whatever, but APM is not the correct term.
StarCraft 2 uses its own seconds, why would they use real life seconds to measure APM? They would be using two different ways of measuring in one game.
A minute is a well-defined unit of time. What Blizzard refers to as "actions per minute" has nothing to do with actual minutes. A Blizzard minute is an arbitrary unit of time that even changes with game speed. Seeing as APM is supposed to be a measurement of a player's hand speed, that doesn't make much sense. Plus, it's simply a misnomer.
On August 27 2011 00:11 Scorch wrote: If there is a change to be made regarding APM, it is multiplying it by 1.38 in order to measure actual actions per minute. What they have now is effective actions per 43.48 seconds. Call it whatever, but APM is not the correct term.
StarCraft 2 uses its own seconds, why would they use real life seconds to measure APM? They would be using two different ways of measuring in one game.
Well imo the whole timing system of SC2 should be changed to be 1:1 with real world time on faster speed anyway. What do I care how many Actions per SC2 Minute someone has, we have no good feeling for that time which is ~1.38x our time. APM is a measure of how fast a person executes actions with his fingers, i.e. in the real world. Using real world minutes to measure those actions and calculate the APM seems the most useful to me.
I understand it's perhaps more logical to use the game's timer, so then just goddamn change the timer already to real world time. I'm sure hardly anyone will dislike it, you only have to adjust to the new timings for a while.
As I said in the general PTR patch thread, I don't really care about APM but this change somehow pisses me off. The way that Blizzard wants to "filter" some actions. It's Actions Per Minute... you make an action or you don't. Useful or not, an action is an action. I wouldn't mind if it was UAPM (Useful APM) but since it's called APM, there shouldn't be any reason to ignore actions.
I think it pisses me off also because I used to do network surveillance, so even when I wasn't actively working on an incident, I was still working by checking various tools (what you would do by switching between rax, starport and fact hotkeys to see unit building progress). So even though you aren't actively doing something, you are still doing actions and making sure stuff goes as planned.
Really mad about this useless stat being made even more useless.
What's next, will they ignore successive move commands saying that the last command is the only useful one and the rest is just spam?
People are always going to find wys to cheat the system so tinkering with apm is pointless, unfortunately this will just reward bad players who spam click all over the place, but whatever. I have a question how do you get/use the PTR, I forget how you use it?
On August 27 2011 00:11 Scorch wrote: If there is a change to be made regarding APM, it is multiplying it by 1.38 in order to measure actual actions per minute. What they have now is effective actions per 43.48 seconds. Call it whatever, but APM is not the correct term.
StarCraft 2 uses its own seconds, why would they use real life seconds to measure APM? They would be using two different ways of measuring in one game.
Well imo the whole timing system of SC2 should be changed to be 1:1 with real world time on faster speed anyway. What do I care how many Actions per SC2 Minute someone has, we have no good feeling for that time which is ~1.38x our time. APM is a measure of how fast a person executes actions with his fingers, i.e. in the real world. Using real world minutes to measure those actions and calculate the APM seems the most useful to me.
I understand it's perhaps more logical to use the game's timer, so then just goddamn change the timer already to real world time. I'm sure hardly anyone will dislike it, you only have to adjust to the new timings for a while.
Ye the game time is not very intuitive and that to me is a major flaw. They made strides to make the game more intuitive so it's easier to follow yet refuse to make it so the very time the game runs is intuitive. I just can't understand it. Time is extremely important and having it as this arbitrarily defined factor is just silly.
I thought this was a fix for the minute thing which would have been nice.
I said I don't care but I actually think it's really silly of them to change a metric that's been used for so long. Even if it's not an accurate way of looking at someone's skill, it still has it's uses.
Plus, why would you even call it APM in the new form they're implementing. If I make 10 of the same unit using the same hotkey, that should still be 10 actions not 1.
Really have to quest their line of thinking on this one.
Hmmm this is kind of stupid. I think that after this patch I will go back to using a third party APM meter like broodwar. No, it will not change the way you play, I think most people just spam and cycle in sc2 to look cool, especially the ones who keep all of their buildings on 1 hot key and army on another. These kinds of people are the only ones this patch is really hurting, but accurate APM is good information to have regardless.
ITT: People thinking everything has only one definition.
1 Minute is 60 seconds, regardless of how long those seconds are. It's not a "game minute"; it's a minute. Blame the fact that most games are played on the "Faster" speed and stop thinking Blizzard created their own time system.
Also, perhaps Actions per Minute means Actions per Minute, where Action would be every unique action? Tapping 5, then tapping it again half a second later without doing anything in between is not a unique action. APM counts how many unique actions have occurred (excluding repetitive move commands and such, because those are technically unique due to the changed unit positioning). It makes sense to me. It's an ambiguous term, and no amount of "But BW did it this way!" will change that >.>
On August 27 2011 00:29 sh4w wrote: Hmmm this is kind of stupid. I think that after this patch I will go back to using a third party APM meter like broodwar. No, it will not change the way you play, I think most people just spam and cycle in sc2 to look cool, especially the ones who keep all of their buildings on 1 hot key and army on another. These kinds of people are the only ones this patch is really hurting, but accurate APM is good information to have regardless.
I edited the OP with this information.
External programs (e.g., sc2gears) will very likely reflect the changes to APM measurement listed in the patch notes because they mine information provided by starcraft 2. There does not exist a starcraft 2 APM tool that would not be affected by this change.
I've played ppl who have 200-300 apm in the early game. Once actual things need to be done they drop below 80 and I still rofl stomp them with my measly 40. Watching the replay they cannot even spend their money, build supply depos on time or arrange their army ;-)
Also in regards to tapping. It's just a crutch for people lacking skill. No secret how long buildtimes are. I see your glasses fogging up and your ears getting red. Plz went your emotions =O
That being said, stop messing with irrelevant small things. Give me back my losses dammit!!! How am I supposed to know my win ratio, without using paper and pen. Am I really gonna have to make masters just to know if my win% is going up or down?!?!?!?
Ps. TY blizzard 50/50 for overseers, was previously the most overpriced unit in the game. Remeber when you got detection for free?
On August 27 2011 00:30 Zeke50100 wrote: ITT: People thinking everything has only one definition.
1 Minute is 60 seconds, regardless of how long those seconds are. It's not a "game minute"; it's a minute. Blame the fact that most games are played on the "Faster" speed and stop thinking Blizzard created their own time system.
Also, perhaps Actions per Minute means Actions per Minute, where Action would be every unique action? Tapping 5, then tapping it again half a second later without doing anything in between is not a unique action. APM counts how many unique actions have occurred (excluding repetitive move commands and such, because those are technically unique due to the changed unit positioning). It makes sense to me. It's an ambiguous term, and no amount of "But BW did it this way!" will change that >.>
So you just redefined your own term for action and then stated it's ambiguous because of this. That isn't really how you argue points. You are defining an Action as a unique Action which in itself is a circular reference so it doesn't really make any sense. Also noone said Blizzard created their own metric by which to define time, it's merely a factor of the current standard definition. People want it not to be a factor of that definition.
APM is actions per minute. It's a real concept. A starcraft second is merely a multiple of a "real" second and thus is still defined in terms of a second. It's just different by a factor, there is no core difference so it's measuring the exact same thing. Since we define it in terms of a second it makes sense to use APM in terms of the action second/minute instead of the arbitrarily defined "starcraft second" because we can have an actual grasp over that number.
My point is they already have SC2 seconds. Blizzard isn't going to use a different set of measurement units from what they have or they would logically have to change everything.
It's like doing the high jump, and the bar is set using metres. But to score the game you use inches to see who jumped the highest.
APM is actions per minute. It's a real concept. A starcraft second is merely a multiple of a "real" second and thus is still defined in terms of a second. It's just different by a factor, there is no core difference so it's measuring the exact same thing. Since we define it in terms of a second it makes sense to use APM in terms of the action second/minute instead of the arbitrarily defined "starcraft second" because we can have an actual grasp over that number.
My point is they already have SC2 seconds. Blizzard isn't going to use a different set of measurement units from what they have or they would logically have to change everything.
It's like doing the high jump, and the bar is set using metres. But to score the game you use inches to see who jumped the highest.
The only change would be instead of faster CHANGING the scale to 1.38, faster would be the zero point and thus the speed ladder is at would be the same as how everything is defined. The effect of this is obvious when you look at the patch notes. There's a 5 second change to rax which intuitively feels long yet it's in their different scale thus isn't as long as you would intuitively feel. Why should the game go against what you feel intuitively. 5 seconds should be 5 seconds and not 5/1.38(I believe)
If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote: If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
Why must people always try use APM as a contest and say how it doesn't determine skill. Ofcourse it's neither of these things. It's just a stat, it's just actions per minute. If a guy just wants to know how many actions per minute he can sustain what's the harm in that? Why must people always try use it for something else and make justifications based on these things.
This is a bad change that can cloud a lot of information for a player. This is especially true for up and coming players that try to work on action efficiency and a good tapping routine, APM actually helps you analyze your progress and gives you an easier time to filter out inefficiency.
If anything APM also lets you see how top players divide their actions, in combination with first person view and/or follow player camera, even if it includes a bit of spam (which is totally necessary to be efficient on production unless you have a clock inside your head)
And why fix something that ain't broke?
I sure hope this does not make it to the live servers.
On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote: If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
Why must people always try use APM as a contest and say how it doesn't determine skill. Ofcourse it's neither of these things. It's just a stat, it's just actions per minute. If a guy just wants to know how many actions per minute he can sustain what's the harm in that? Why must people always try use it for something else and make justifications based on these things.
I would assume (without any evidence admittedly) that most people would think APM should measure actual actions per minute though? Trying to find a counter arguement leads to, they want to see the number higher with spam, whether correct or not.
Edit: My point is, this change just makes this unit of measurement more accurate but in no way changes how people can play, it just provides a more accurate number I think.
On August 27 2011 00:29 sh4w wrote: Hmmm this is kind of stupid. I think that after this patch I will go back to using a third party APM meter like broodwar. No, it will not change the way you play, I think most people just spam and cycle in sc2 to look cool, especially the ones who keep all of their buildings on 1 hot key and army on another. These kinds of people are the only ones this patch is really hurting, but accurate APM is good information to have regardless.
I edited the OP with this information.
External programs (e.g., sc2gears) will very likely reflect the changes to APM measurement listed in the patch notes because they mine information provided by starcraft 2. There does not exist a starcraft 2 APM tool that would not be affected by this change.
I think it's only the programs that can apparently read APM realtime from the registry somewhere (developer of SC2Gears talked about that, also used in those Razer headphones).
However, I think the replay file still includes all actions (including spam), so I am not sure if you are right when you say external programs will be affected necessarily if they simply count the actions in the replay file and divide it by the time (which I would imagine is what they do now, how else to do it). Only way to be affected is if the replay file will no longer include the 'spam'-actions, which I doubt.
On August 27 2011 00:48 kYem wrote: actually, could it be that it will only to change the apm only when u do something like this, 5 5 5 5 5, or just hold 5?
No, the game doesn't differentiate between the two in this context as I tested on the PTR.
On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote: If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
I don't think people care about whether their spam is being recorded or not. I for one hotkey my cc to 4 and 5 early game but spam 245 anyway.
I think the complaints are about butchering the meaning of the term, which will result in more confusion as well as not adhering to the english language. If I want to know my actions per minute, I should be able to look at the apm tab. Now, all I will see is some random numbers that won't tell me much.
It would be similar to the world suddenly decided that percentages were out of 120 and that all existing percentages had to be square rooted before you add on that 20. It just complicates things for no reason and will encourage people to use third party programs to determine their apm, because, as much as people like to make fun of it, it does tell you whether you are fast or not. Yes, its starcraft 2 so it matters less, but Blizzard's idea that this will make the spamming disappear is totally flawed.
On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote: If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
Rhythm is rhythm, people will still do cycle through keys.
However, it should no longer be called APM, since it isn't actually the same statistic anymore (not that it really was before since it wasn't counted with correct time). It's like an effective actions per minute EAPM now.
On August 27 2011 00:30 Zeke50100 wrote: ITT: People thinking everything has only one definition.
1 Minute is 60 seconds, regardless of how long those seconds are. It's not a "game minute"; it's a minute. Blame the fact that most games are played on the "Faster" speed and stop thinking Blizzard created their own time system.
Also, perhaps Actions per Minute means Actions per Minute, where Action would be every unique action? Tapping 5, then tapping it again half a second later without doing anything in between is not a unique action. APM counts how many unique actions have occurred (excluding repetitive move commands and such, because those are technically unique due to the changed unit positioning). It makes sense to me. It's an ambiguous term, and no amount of "But BW did it this way!" will change that >.>
So you just redefined your own term for action and then stated it's ambiguous because of this. That isn't really how you argue points. You are defining an Action as a unique Action which in itself is a circular reference so it doesn't really make any sense. Also noone said Blizzard created their own metric by which to define time, it's merely a factor of the current standard definition. People want it not to be a factor of that definition.
"How many fruits have you eaten"
Choose one of the following:
"I've eaten apple, orange, and banana"
OR
"I've eaten 7 apples, 3 oranges, and 16 bananas, so 26 fruits in total"
That's what I'm saying. As for the time issue, instead of saying Blizzard should change APM and multiply it by 1.38, they should instead make Faster the default option. It's a much neater change, because it doesn't involve applying the calculations to standardize the value for every game speed.
On August 27 2011 00:29 sh4w wrote: Hmmm this is kind of stupid. I think that after this patch I will go back to using a third party APM meter like broodwar. No, it will not change the way you play, I think most people just spam and cycle in sc2 to look cool, especially the ones who keep all of their buildings on 1 hot key and army on another. These kinds of people are the only ones this patch is really hurting, but accurate APM is good information to have regardless.
I edited the OP with this information.
External programs (e.g., sc2gears) will very likely reflect the changes to APM measurement listed in the patch notes because they mine information provided by starcraft 2. There does not exist a starcraft 2 APM tool that would not be affected by this change.
I think it's only the programs that can apparently read APM realtime from the registry somewhere (developer of SC2Gears talked about that, also used in those Razer headphones).
However, I think the replay file still includes all actions (including spam), so I am not sure if you are right when you say external programs will be affected necessarily if they simply count the actions in the replay file and divide it by the time (which I would imagine is what they do now, how else to do it). Only way to be affected is if the replay file will no longer include the 'spam'-actions, which I doubt.
Yea you're right. I believe replays have a pre-calculated average APM statistic which is mined by replay sites. But the entire stream of actions should be in the replay, so it is possible for someone to create a program to calculate APM taking into accounts actions that would be thrown out when the game calculates the average APM statistic. Amending my edit to reflect that.
On August 27 2011 00:45 Iyerbeth wrote: If the people spamming APM really are doing it to warm themselves up, what difference does it make if that meaningless spam doesn't count towards APM? Are people really fighting over how much fake APM they can get over other players? Does APM even matter, surely the skill in the play is what matters?
Rhythm is rhythm, people will still do cycle through keys.
However, it should no longer be called APM, since it isn't actually the same statistic anymore (not that it really was before since it wasn't counted with correct time). It's like an effective actions per minute EAPM now.
EAPM, that's a fair point. Would be cool if both were in then if people want A(ctual)APM and EAPM. Personally I've always figured APM should reflect EAPM.
most people don't care, that is why the changes have been drowned out by the new balance changes.
I think the only important change to apm measurements that Blizzard could make would be to measure apm in real time, rather than in the accelerated SC2 time, so that casters don't have to distinguish between real/BW apm and SC2 apm.
I would love to see 2 types of APM (effective and total). That way everyone would be happy, and we could have a look at both stats, as interesting as they are.
Maybe blizzard should implement things that we all want like LAN and replay viewing instead of editing things already in the game that don't actually effect anything
On August 27 2011 00:50 Masayume wrote: This is a bad change that can cloud a lot of information for a player. This is especially true for up and coming players that try to work on action efficiency and a good tapping routine, APM actually helps you analyze your progress and gives you an easier time to filter out inefficiency.
If anything APM also lets you see how top players divide their actions, in combination with first person view and/or follow player camera, even if it includes a bit of spam (which is totally necessary to be efficient on production unless you have a clock inside your head)
And why fix something that ain't broke?
I sure hope this does not make it to the live servers.
Can you please explain how an APM count that consists mainly of spam helps one to determine efficiency? It seems to me that a count that includes only valid APM would be more helpful, because you can actually observe your increase in actions that make a difference. With the current system, all you're seeing is how fast your tapping is increasing (if you're someone who tries to tap throughout the game).
Remember when Blizzard got rid of loss off the record for low league players?
They are doing the same thing with the APM. They are trying to generalize a lot of SC2 elements that would make low league players more motivated to play the game.
Think about it:
From Blizzard perspective , there are more lower league players than master/GM players. and they get more $$ from lower league players- So they are trying to hide any skill presentation that would intimidate low level players from playing SC2.
On August 26 2011 22:26 muzzy wrote: There will be some initial "shock" as players see their lower APM, but it will be good long term, as it's a more realistic measure.
The reason for tapping is to keep yourself in that fast paced mindset, fingers always moving. You'll still want to do that and it will still help you maintain a higher APM. It just won't artificially increase APM.
That's the stupid part though. Now essentially someone like Huk or Bomber who "taps" to keep producing units will have the same APM as some gold league noob who doesn't tap because he doesn't know how.
This is such a stupid change. Why they worry about "fixing" the APM counter instead of /actually/ fixing their game is beyond me.
On August 27 2011 01:01 fritos wrote: People,
Remember when Blizzard got rid of loss off the record for low league players?
They are doing the same thing with the APM. They are trying to generalize a lot of SC2 elements that would make low league players more motivated to play the game.
Think about it:
From Blizzard perspective , there are more lower league players than master/GM players. and they get more $$ from lower league players- So they are trying to hide any skill presentation that would intimidate low level players from playing SC2.
This just doesn't make any sense. The win-loss record removal was to help people overcome the "ladder fear" that affects a lot of people in the lower leagues. APM has nothing to do with that. You don't see Little Jimmy not hitting "find match" because his APM isn't as high as IdrA's.
I'm thinking it's probably time for bw chart replay analyzer seems as Blizzard is more interested in dropping spam clicks and less interested in making actions per minute an actual minute. Realistically, changes to the apm formula doesn't effect too much and apm was sometimes valued too much. But it still seems silly to make it mean apm mean something other than actions per minute.
Remember when Blizzard got rid of loss off the record for low league players?
They are doing the same thing with the APM. They are trying to generalize a lot of SC2 elements that would make low league players more motivated to play the game.
Think about it:
From Blizzard perspective , there are more lower league players than master/GM players. and they get more $$ from lower league players- So they are trying to hide any skill presentation that would intimidate low level players from playing SC2.
This just doesn't make any sense. The win-loss record removal was to help people overcome the "ladder fear" that affects a lot of people in the lower leagues. APM has nothing to do with that. You don't see Little Jimmy not hitting "find match" because his APM isn't as high as IdrA's.
You just said that it was to " help people overcome the ladder fear". This APM change is the similar concept, with the new APM system, no one is going to have super high APM, so it generalize one aspect of skill presentation in SC2.
Who do you think is going to feel better about it when no one has super high APM? Answer is: Low league players.
I honestly don't care about what the apm counter shows, but I don't understand the point in "nerfing" APM. What thought process did the people at blizzard go through, to think that alot of APM was a bad idea?
Before the patch: 245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made) 2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued) 52m52m52m = 9 actions (1 for each selection and each move issued)
After the patch: 245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored) 2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued) 52m52m52m = 6 actions (1 for the initial "5" selection, 1 for each move issued)
[/i]
Are you sure that this is true? I understand it that way:
121212 = 6 actions post-patch -> 6 actions
111111 = 6 actions post-patch -> 1 action
So that "repeated" refers to the same group. Otherwise everyones APM would be like 40 or sth.
APM lost its meaning with this patch. Just to express it a bit dramatically but I think it's quite true.. How can you ignore tapping? How you can you ignore APM spam in the beginning, which can characterize players quite well. It's just so random now.
How is queen macro (55vClick 66vClick 77vClick) not 4 actions each? You make 4 hits on buttons total, don't you?
Please don't mess this up Blizzard, if you want to change APM then show the normal speed apm in the APM tab in game so we have the Actions per ACTUAL Minute. I sincerely hope that this is just a test and won't carry over from the PTR. T__T
Before the patch: 245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made) 2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued) 52m52m52m = 9 actions (1 for each selection and each move issued)
After the patch: 245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored) 2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued) 52m52m52m = 6 actions (1 for the initial "5" selection, 1 for each move issued)
Are you sure that this is true? I understand it that way:
121212 = 6 actions post-patch -> 6 actions
111111 = 6 actions post-patch -> 1 action
So that "repeated" refers to the same group. Otherwise everyones APM would be like 40 or sth.
[/i]
Nah. I'm pretty sure that's how things work on the ptr. My above examples are from my own testing from yesterday.
this change is bullshit, less actions counted = worse, how ill be able to count my hand speed objectively ? I dont understand this change at all. If i move my hand/finger why wouldn't it count, and other movement would count?. Its troublesome for me, because i like to prepare myself before matches vs computer and gain steady average apm, very much of it are groups selecting.
There are progamers who account to APM meter, for example Bisu. Its always your part of training conciously or not.
all it does is make APM go from slightly inaccurate to completely arbitrary and useless. people inflate it but high APM is what happens when people are incredibly on point with managing everything. no, i don't like it, because checking people's APM was a minor but noticable thing to me. APM was something that could be read a lot of ways because it counted all your clicks and you can tell when people were just slow or when people were overclicking things. not sure what use it has now other than just to show off lol
I can't tell you how many times I've heard people reference their apm instead of their macro or micro in regards to their skill.
Then when I see a replay of them playing I notice how much lower the other player's apm is and yet he is macroing more and winning engagement after engagement.
This is a pretty silly change. Players will still spam a ton, now they just won't know how quickly they are spamming. I see a 3rd party program coming out to calculate the 'old' APM.
Blizzard should start by switching into real APM (normal minutes). Don't you dare to say its impossible. I bet you can make that change in less than 5mins.
This change is probably to give viewers better covariation between APM and multitasking.
Blizzard should stop wasting time on tweaking thinks like this and rather add more oh-so-needed features into battle.net. If they don't know what are we talking about they should just look what LOL has
On August 27 2011 01:59 fds wrote: Blizzard should start by switching into real APM (normal minutes). Don't you dare to say its impossible. I bet you can make that change in less than 5mins.
This change is probably to give viewers better covariation between APM and multitasking.
Blizzard should stop wasting time on tweaking thinks like this and rather add more oh-so-needed features into battle.net. If they don't know what are we talking about they should just look what LOL has
doing so will complicate things imo... if they switch to apm for real minutes.. people will start wondering why in-game timer isnt real time as well.. and blizzard will have to convert the timings of pretty much every thing in game.. so zealots will be 30.5387 seconds to build etc
On August 27 2011 01:53 cydial wrote: Definetly a good change.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard people reference their apm instead of their macro or micro in regards to their skill.
Then when I see a replay of them playing I notice how much lower the other player's apm is and yet he is macroing more and winning engagement after engagement.
So? APM is still worthless on its own, now it's whoever issues the most move commands which has no reflection on in game success or failure.
It will never be a number that reflects skill. Anyone who gets caught up into thinking it does is an idiot, before or after this patch.
That's what people who try to tinker with APM need to get into their heads. It is literally just a number. By changing what counts as actions you aren't making this number more or less accurate, because it doesn't actually reflect anything but how many actions you are performing. Well, I guess it makes it less accurate because now it won't even do that reliably.
In fact, more people will now think it matters than before. So really all these sorts of things do (and trying to change the way APM is derived is nothing new in the SC world) is put more emphasis on this number that never really meant anything to begin with
The important question here should be: " What is Blizzard trying to achieve with that change?" I don't see any useful or important reason to change what is globally accepted by the community. Furthermore, APM was never an indication of skill (at least for normal people). The only reason why I take a look at my APM sometimes is to check if I was busy enough in my games. When I see 120 APM i can imply that i was doing enough. This doesnt mean I wasn't spamming. I just know that 120 APM is my cap and I did my potentially most actions per minute in a game(tabbing, injects, etc.). Also when somebody is spamming to have a high APM and bragging about it, just take a look at his replays and you can see his skill level. All this change does is confuse people.
this is a stupid change. they remove real apm, and add fake apm. apm = actions. they just ruined apm for sc2 lmao. Oh well i play bw so im still good enjoying accurate reads of my apm. :D 200+
I could agree to this change if they would differentiate between selecting a control group and centering your screen on it. If you do: 44, 55, 66 to check on your queens I would call that three different actions, but I fear the new way of measuring will count it as one.
For those who say that Blizzard has fake APM now: spamming controlgroup hotkeys was the biggest contributor to mindless spamming, so if you would take that away from the real APM count then yes, maybe you get some real actions, but those might just be a small portion of your effective APM so it should still be a fairly accurate way to measure speed.
On August 27 2011 01:53 cydial wrote: Definetly a good change.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard people reference their apm instead of their macro or micro in regards to their skill.
Then when I see a replay of them playing I notice how much lower the other player's apm is and yet he is macroing more and winning engagement after engagement.
So? APM is still worthless on its own, now it's whoever issues the most move commands which has no reflection on in game success or failure.
It will never be a number that reflects skill. Anyone who gets caught up into thinking it does is an idiot, before or after this patch.
That's what people who try to tinker with APM need to get into their heads. It is literally just a number. By changing what counts as actions you aren't making this number more or less accurate, because it doesn't actually reflect anything but how many actions you are performing. Well, I guess it makes it less accurate because now it won't even do that reliably.
In fact, more people will now think it matters than before. So really all these sorts of things do (and trying to change the way APM is derived is nothing new in the SC world) is put more emphasis on this number that never really meant anything to begin with
If it's just a meaningless number then Blizzard should remove it from the game. Then it's just a funny little statistic with no real relation to the game's outcome and therefore not useful for spectators. Don't you think a sport that habitually goes: "WoW! Look at that speed, you folks at home couldn't do it." is a bit silly when the speed doesn't translate to useful ability? Fortunately it somewhat does, but then why shouldn't you try and filter the raw values for a more useful eAPM number?
Someone implied maybe Goody's and Merz's apm won't be so far apart now anymore, but isn't that a good thing since it makes APM more reflective of their actual skill?
I mean, I'm gonna have less APM in the beginning with my 14box14box14box14box14box but... I really don't care at all. I think it's kind of a pointless change, but I'm not opposed to it.
On August 27 2011 02:17 Grumbels wrote: I could agree to this change if they would differentiate between selecting a control group and centering your screen on it. If you do: 44, 55, 66 to check on your queens I would call that three different actions, but I fear the new way of measuring will count it as one.
For those who say that Blizzard has fake APM now: spamming controlgroup hotkeys was the biggest contributor to mindless spamming, so if you would take that away from the real APM count then yes, maybe you get some real actions, but those might just be a small portion of your effective APM so it should still be a fairly accurate way to measure speed.
On August 27 2011 01:53 cydial wrote: Definetly a good change.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard people reference their apm instead of their macro or micro in regards to their skill.
Then when I see a replay of them playing I notice how much lower the other player's apm is and yet he is macroing more and winning engagement after engagement.
So? APM is still worthless on its own, now it's whoever issues the most move commands which has no reflection on in game success or failure.
It will never be a number that reflects skill. Anyone who gets caught up into thinking it does is an idiot, before or after this patch.
That's what people who try to tinker with APM need to get into their heads. It is literally just a number. By changing what counts as actions you aren't making this number more or less accurate, because it doesn't actually reflect anything but how many actions you are performing. Well, I guess it makes it less accurate because now it won't even do that reliably.
In fact, more people will now think it matters than before. So really all these sorts of things do (and trying to change the way APM is derived is nothing new in the SC world) is put more emphasis on this number that never really meant anything to begin with
If it's just a meaningless number then Blizzard should remove it from the game. Then it's just a funny little statistic with no real relation to the game's outcome and therefore not useful for spectators. Don't you think a sport that habitually goes: "WoW! Look at that speed, you folks at home couldn't do it." is a bit silly when the speed doesn't translate to useful ability? Fortunately it somewhat does, but then why shouldn't you try and filter the raw values for a more useful eAPM number?
Someone implied maybe Goody's and Merz's apm won't be so far apart now anymore, but isn't that a good thing since it makes APM more reflective of their actual skill?
You're missing the point where you're not making it more useful. You're just arbitrarily cutting things out because you decide they aren't useful.
Before apm was ever even calculated from bw replays Koreans played at 300 apm. The underlining principle you should take away from APM is that playing an RTS where every second counts as fast as you can is generally a good idea.
That's all APM reflects as a number. When you take things out of it you aren't making it a better number as a result. Why is selecting things multiple times more or less significant than giving redundant move commands? Or right clicking an scv to a mineral multiple times before it gets there.
There's no one alive who can accurately judge what action is absolutely necessary and what action is unnecessary, so why bother trying to draw a line anywhere?
Removing the APM tab is fine I guess, the only function it serves to give us a glimpse of how fast a player is playing without seeing their perspective as opposed to "how effectively they are playing" which is just a stupid thing to try to quantify
It's not a big deal. I just think they waste way too much time on stupid changes such as this and the cancel building thing. Knowing that a Terran player got 75 minerals back from cancelling a bunker isn't going to win anyone games. They might as well just take APM out of the game entirely.
On August 27 2011 02:40 KCrazy wrote: Do this many people really think pros spam just to look cool? It'd be really sad if that's true..
Also does this effect apm building units or is it only control groups?
It affects any changes to what you are currently selecting. The third example in the OP illustrates this. There is no difference between selecting a unit and a building. The only thing that has changed is that a string of selection changes only count as a single action.
Perhaps the worst thing about this change will be listening to commentators spend twice as long explaining why/how blizzard APM is not real APM every time the tab gets shown.
On August 27 2011 00:30 Zeke50100 wrote: ITT: People thinking everything has only one definition.
1 Minute is 60 seconds, regardless of how long those seconds are. It's not a "game minute"; it's a minute. Blame the fact that most games are played on the "Faster" speed and stop thinking Blizzard created their own time system.
Also, perhaps Actions per Minute means Actions per Minute, where Action would be every unique action? Tapping 5, then tapping it again half a second later without doing anything in between is not a unique action. APM counts how many unique actions have occurred (excluding repetitive move commands and such, because those are technically unique due to the changed unit positioning). It makes sense to me. It's an ambiguous term, and no amount of "But BW did it this way!" will change that >.>
So you just redefined your own term for action and then stated it's ambiguous because of this. That isn't really how you argue points. You are defining an Action as a unique Action which in itself is a circular reference so it doesn't really make any sense. Also noone said Blizzard created their own metric by which to define time, it's merely a factor of the current standard definition. People want it not to be a factor of that definition.
"How many fruits have you eaten"
Choose one of the following:
"I've eaten apple, orange, and banana"
OR
"I've eaten 7 apples, 3 oranges, and 16 bananas, so 26 fruits in total"
That's what I'm saying. As for the time issue, instead of saying Blizzard should change APM and multiply it by 1.38, they should instead make Faster the default option. It's a much neater change, because it doesn't involve applying the calculations to standardize the value for every game speed.
Odd, that's exactly what I and others have said. Don't really get why you arguing same point with the same people oO
Same thing as the difference between apm and effective apm in BWchart back in the brood war days. All in all it doesn't matter and I don't care about this change at all.
Edit: I'm still going to spam, and so are the pros that spam, because that's just how we play the game. Why would you let this change affect the way you play?
I think it is bad because APM is an actual physicality that can be fun to look at. Blizzard didn't even invent the shit and now they are messing with it, they have no right imo.
On August 26 2011 22:43 gillon wrote: Retarded change, blizzard is saying that useful actions aren't actually useful. The spam is not just spam. It gives overview over production.
This, the tapping "spam" is actually a necessity and it factors into one's skill and gameplay and thus should be counted.
On August 26 2011 22:43 gillon wrote: Retarded change, blizzard is saying that useful actions aren't actually useful. The spam is not just spam. It gives overview over production.
This, the tapping "spam" is actually a necessity and it factors into one's skill and gameplay and thus should be counted.
I completely agree as well. Tapping is necessary, without you will never be able to macro efficiently. If in addition to APM they want to introduce an eAPM statistic, I'm all for that. Both are interesting facts to measure your grasp of the game and to analyse your improvement from replay to replay.
On August 27 2011 02:40 KCrazy wrote: Do this many people really think pros spam just to look cool? It'd be really sad if that's true..
Also does this effect apm building units or is it only control groups?
Well, who cares ! They can still spam if they want. The APM tab will show now the TRUE ( almost ) apm of a player
well that depends on what you would consider an action. If you hotkey buildings to check upgrade progress, shouldn't checking those be considered an action? I mean in the end it doesn't matter, people will do that anyways but i just dont see why people assume that pros would purposely spam and tire themselves out without a good reason to!
On August 27 2011 03:16 TheRealPaciFist wrote: How about
224455224455
?
I trust that's either 12 or 6 actions, rather than just 1
See the OP. On live that's 12 actions. On the PTR, that's 1.
At the start of the game on the PTR, your APM will probably be 0 after your initial split because you won't be able to do any meaningful actions (unless you drone stack).
This is like repainting the titanic. as long as SC2 apm isn't calculated by the actual minute trying to accurately represent someones apm isn't going to happen.
On August 26 2011 22:43 gillon wrote: Retarded change, blizzard is saying that useful actions aren't actually useful. The spam is not just spam. It gives overview over production.
They are not patching APMs because tapping is useless. Before the patch any noob could reach 400 apm easily, making it a completely useless skill parameter. Now the noob spammer will get his own 40 apm and the pro his 200 or whatever. Better losing a little accuracy and finally having a valuable parameter imho.
i wonder the logic behind this change. i'm all for every action = action. this just seems more of catering to the mass populous just like removing loss.
bad players spam to show off their apm, good players spam to warm up. why the hell does blizzard care about what it implies?
apm should NEVER be used to rank players for fuck sakes (it seems few people here do)
On August 27 2011 02:17 Grumbels wrote: I could agree to this change if they would differentiate between selecting a control group and centering your screen on it. If you do: 44, 55, 66 to check on your queens I would call that three different actions, but I fear the new way of measuring will count it as one.
For those who say that Blizzard has fake APM now: spamming controlgroup hotkeys was the biggest contributor to mindless spamming, so if you would take that away from the real APM count then yes, maybe you get some real actions, but those might just be a small portion of your effective APM so it should still be a fairly accurate way to measure speed.
On August 27 2011 02:07 floor exercise wrote:
On August 27 2011 01:53 cydial wrote: Definetly a good change.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard people reference their apm instead of their macro or micro in regards to their skill.
Then when I see a replay of them playing I notice how much lower the other player's apm is and yet he is macroing more and winning engagement after engagement.
So? APM is still worthless on its own, now it's whoever issues the most move commands which has no reflection on in game success or failure.
It will never be a number that reflects skill. Anyone who gets caught up into thinking it does is an idiot, before or after this patch.
That's what people who try to tinker with APM need to get into their heads. It is literally just a number. By changing what counts as actions you aren't making this number more or less accurate, because it doesn't actually reflect anything but how many actions you are performing. Well, I guess it makes it less accurate because now it won't even do that reliably.
In fact, more people will now think it matters than before. So really all these sorts of things do (and trying to change the way APM is derived is nothing new in the SC world) is put more emphasis on this number that never really meant anything to begin with
If it's just a meaningless number then Blizzard should remove it from the game. Then it's just a funny little statistic with no real relation to the game's outcome and therefore not useful for spectators. Don't you think a sport that habitually goes: "WoW! Look at that speed, you folks at home couldn't do it." is a bit silly when the speed doesn't translate to useful ability? Fortunately it somewhat does, but then why shouldn't you try and filter the raw values for a more useful eAPM number?
Someone implied maybe Goody's and Merz's apm won't be so far apart now anymore, but isn't that a good thing since it makes APM more reflective of their actual skill?
You're missing the point where you're not making it more useful. You're just arbitrarily cutting things out because you decide they aren't useful.
Before apm was ever even calculated from bw replays Koreans played at 300 apm. The underlining principle you should take away from APM is that playing an RTS where every second counts as fast as you can is generally a good idea.
That's all APM reflects as a number. When you take things out of it you aren't making it a better number as a result. Why is selecting things multiple times more or less significant than giving redundant move commands? Or right clicking an scv to a mineral multiple times before it gets there.
There's no one alive who can accurately judge what action is absolutely necessary and what action is unnecessary, so why bother trying to draw a line anywhere?
Removing the APM tab is fine I guess, the only function it serves to give us a glimpse of how fast a player is playing without seeing their perspective as opposed to "how effectively they are playing" which is just a stupid thing to try to quantify
I think it's silly to act like we could never ever find a good way to measure someone's playing speed, that's just anti-intellectual. APM doesn't do this as it measures clicking speed, not playing speed. They sort of correlate, but spamming distorts the value so much it's not very useful if you would want to rank players. A good way of measuring should produce values where e.g. 2x the amount means 2x more actions and for the current APM calculations that's just not the case as an equally likely explanation could be one person spams, the other doesn't.
I should add I'm not in favor of the change as it still won't be a very good measure for effective APM. It's sort of cool to be able to see which players can click at insane speeds, but I think it'd be neater to have Blizzard produce two values: all actions filtered for redundancy and the current APM, but it would require of them to create some fairly sophisticated ways to filter actions and I'm not sure they're willing to put in the time for such a thing.
On August 27 2011 03:26 jinorazi wrote: i wonder the logic behind this change. i'm all for every action = action. this just seems more of catering to the mass populous just like removing loss.
How could this cater to the mass? Everybody´s APM will be reduced. I t will actually make the spammers feel bad lol.
On August 27 2011 03:26 jinorazi wrote: i wonder the logic behind this change. i'm all for every action = action. this just seems more of catering to the mass populous just like removing loss.
How could this cater to the mass? Everybody´s APM will be reduced. I t will actually make the spammers feel bad lol.
because some people think low apm = bad. therefore, some players spam their way to increase apm.
its to make those people with low apm feel better. and i'm sure the mass majority of players have low apm.
On August 27 2011 03:26 jinorazi wrote: i wonder the logic behind this change. i'm all for every action = action. this just seems more of catering to the mass populous just like removing loss.
How could this cater to the mass? Everybody´s APM will be reduced. I t will actually make the spammers feel bad lol.
because some people think low apm = bad. therefore, some players spam their way to increase apm.
its to make those people with low apm feel better. and i'm sure the mass majority of players have low apm.
White ra is way better than merz but has 2-2.5 times less apm. and no merzs multitasking isnt better neither is his micro or speed
On August 27 2011 03:26 jinorazi wrote: i wonder the logic behind this change. i'm all for every action = action. this just seems more of catering to the mass populous just like removing loss.
How could this cater to the mass? Everybody´s APM will be reduced. I t will actually make the spammers feel bad lol.
Like I mentioned earlier in the thread:
Remember when Blizzard got rid of loss off the record for low league players?
They are doing the same thing with the APM. They are trying to generalize a lot of SC2 elements that would make low league players more motivated to play the game.
Think about it:
From Blizzard perspective , there are more lower league players than master/GM players. and they get more $$ from lower league players due to higher # of players- So they are trying to hide any skill presentation that would intimidate low level players from playing SC2. Who do you think is going to feel better about it when no one has super high APM? Answer is: Low league players.
On August 27 2011 03:16 TheRealPaciFist wrote: How about
224455224455
?
I trust that's either 12 or 6 actions, rather than just 1
See the OP. On live that's 12 actions. On the PTR, that's 1.
At the start of the game on the PTR, your APM will probably be 0 after your initial split because you won't be able to do any meaningful actions (unless you drone stack).
22 actually changes your screen, which means you're actually doing something, not just spamming. The OP isn't clear on this case
On August 27 2011 03:31 isleyofthenorth wrote: why are people so butthurt about their apm. its not a sign of skill or progress, good micro macro and multitasking are
On August 27 2011 03:26 jinorazi wrote: i wonder the logic behind this change. i'm all for every action = action. this just seems more of catering to the mass populous just like removing loss.
How could this cater to the mass? Everybody´s APM will be reduced. I t will actually make the spammers feel bad lol.
because some people think low apm = bad. therefore, some players spam their way to increase apm.
its to make those people with low apm feel better. and i'm sure the mass majority of players have low apm.
White ra is way better than merz but has 2-2.5 times less apm. and no merzs multitasking isnt better neither is his micro or speed
indeed. as i've said, apm does not equal skill or limitation to one's ability to carry their task.
Redefining a key term that has been used as a statistic for over 10 years is... pointless. It's like the NBA all of a sudden saying that FG's now count only as 2-point shots. If they want to get a more accurate measurement of a different statistic, create a different name all together. Bad change - it just does not make sense.
No, it's more like the baseball committee or whatever it's called deciding homeruns hit by starplayers while playing in high school games don't count towards their total score anymore. Sure, technically they're homeruns, but come on.
Its a redundant change, all it will do is bring down the pro's apm to a level closer to casual players. Making players in bronze through diamond feel like their 70apm isn't too bad compared to the now 150apm of a grandmaster player.
Redefining a key term that has been used as a statistic for over 10 years is... pointless. It's like the NBA all of a sudden saying that FG's now count only as 2-point shots. If they want to get a more accurate measurement of a different statistic, create a different name all together. Bad change - it just does not make sense.
No, it's more like the baseball committee or whatever it's called deciding homeruns hit by starplayers while playing in high school games don't count towards their total score anymore.
I don't understand this analogy. Why only star players? Why high school games?
I say it's good. Finally people will know what their real APM is, and stop acting like they're the best zerg because they spam their way to 200 APM in the first 8 minutes of a game. 34345345345345345345345345345345345345 really shows skill.
And we'll finally see protoss only takes 60 apm, down from 100!!!! lol
But in all seriousness, I enjoy it. People will be humbled at first, but that's good.
I'm more interested in knowing the effective APM of the player versus the raw APM.
Therefore I think their goal of trying to display the effective APM is a good one. I understand that they may not have it down 100% (cycling is still useful and thus effective, even if it's redundant) and yes it will be harder to compare your past APM to the new one (let alone comparing to BW APM). But those issues are for me less important than knowing the effective APM.
I also find it funny at how many people seem to be so butthurt about this change.
On August 26 2011 22:43 gillon wrote: Retarded change, blizzard is saying that useful actions aren't actually useful. The spam is not just spam. It gives overview over production.
This, the tapping "spam" is actually a necessity and it factors into one's skill and gameplay and thus should be counted.
I completely agree as well. Tapping is necessary, without you will never be able to macro efficiently. If in addition to APM they want to introduce an eAPM statistic, I'm all for that. Both are interesting facts to measure your grasp of the game and to analyse your improvement from replay to replay.
disagree utterly. tapping your control groups should not count as an action
On August 27 2011 03:36 headbus wrote: Its a redundant change, all it will do is bring down the pro's apm to a level closer to casual players. Making players in bronze through diamond feel like their 70apm isn't too bad compared to the now 150apm of a grandmaster player.
my 250 apm dont do anything close to those of a gm player because im a diamond scrub. never thought i was any faster than other players just because i spam more
^ i like that rAPM and eAPM, there should be two not just one. the reason people are butthurt is because its new, no one likes change, some change is good some change is bad, since we consider this bad we are butthurt, but in the eventual weeks to come it will be all butt forgotten. so its ok, just gonna have to accept it. for now tho! QQ FOR LIFE! fuck eAPM!
I love how Blizzard made a change to APM that wasn't using actual minutes. I mean, obviously almost nobody in this thread cares that Blizzard made this change, and the change is totally fine, but seriously, if they're worried about having an "accurate" number then it seems like making it use minutes would be the first change they'd make.
ALL they're changing is the APM counter You can still play as fast as you want, the only difference is the number on the counter
I don't get why people are acting like this is such a big deal... yeah you'll lose your big number, but at the end of the day, it's just e-peen, isn't it?
Tapping or "spamming" is useful for better macroing as you can see when units are about to finish so you can que another unit. Just watch how MC always checks his warpgate cooldowns (even during MICRO battles which takes skills) instead of spamming W which doesn't show when exactly they are all off cooldown. Notice how pros have a single Nexus/CC on a hotkey so they can check the unit progress bar which is something you cant do when you're screen is out on the field, or by checking multiple Nexus/cc on 1 hotkey. I know some zergs check their hatchery for more than 3 larvae through tapping cycling to know when to inject when they are away from their base to see the inject progress bar. This should show and count for apm as it is a skill for better macro.
Moving your whole army with 1a, 2a, and sometimes 3 total control groups so you don't get EMP'd or Psi stormed, or to prevent your spellcasters from dying is a skill and should show and count as a players apm.
The real problem is holding multiple hotkeys to induce multiple taps to easily inflate your apm which should not be measured imo. That should be the change, not current change.
I'm not sure what I think about the change. Ostensibly I don't really care, but I'm not sure of the motive behind the change. When I see super high APM I am not thinking "Holy shit he is doing useful things really fast," I am thinking "Holy shit that dude has some quick fingers." But maybe I'm in the minority in that.
i cant believe the first example you used is going to become 1 action. to lower level players maybe this is just as good as one action, but it at least should could every time you select a building. higher level players absolutely should have tapping taken into account when calculating APM.
tapping is essential to macro and keeping your attention in multiple places at once..as useless as APM is, its nice to see that i'm zipping around the game quickly. it should be up to the player to determine whether or not their APM is a useful stat to keep track of and how their apm is spent (useful VS not useful APM). if its not useful, it should be up to the player to recognize/decide/change how its spent.
i hope at the very least, sc2 gears continues to keep track of your APM in its current state and not the new blizzard way.
I don't really like it. At what point does Blizzard decide that a new control group selection is a new action? The simple matter is that selecting a control group to check upgrade/build/health progress in the bottom bar IS a meaningful action that players need to make at the highest levels of play. This just seems like needless complexity to the APM counter that doesn't really offer us anything and potentially removes meaningful actions from counting.
If they must do it they should just keep a rawAPM and their modifiedAPM as separate data in their game charts.
On August 27 2011 04:21 PredY wrote: the change is pretty bad there's no reason to call it APM anymore. you know, the counter that showed how many ACTIONS you made per an actually minute
haha so true. now it's like unique command issued per blizzard minute
To say my opinion on the matter without diving too much into the alleready mentioned arguements, I'd like to point out something I didn't find on the 12 pages of posts ( I did skim a bit quickly posts 8-12 or so...) is the following:
Since realisticly just the 1st week for a new player he will overhear or read somewhere the message that is APM = Skill
To name some examples "Nada got 400 apm! he is so gosu" "Losira must have like 1000 apm!" (said or written in a way that indicates it being good) "LOL look at that scrub with 40 APM"
and it goes on.
Despite the majority of posters here on TL at least agree that high APM =/= skill it is still a complete reality that everyday somewhere on a forum or channel or stream or whatever a guy or girl says something with the essence of it being apm = skill
And I think it is safe to say this is just more right the lower the league (in a general sence)
And what this does is make those, especially new, players believe to achieve high apm is necessary and spamming is a "must". Which in turn results in playing below ones potensial simply to, a bit brutally said, have a bigger e-peen in reality.
I bet everyone here at some point have been in best case a bit delayed with their first drones/ovie/probe/scv etc because they were focused on spamming in the early game.
At least I have plenty of times in the past spammed my 356s356s356s356s and made my x/10 drone on 75 minerals instead of 50 etc solely because I focused on spamming instead of what is relevant.
For this reason I welcome this change, it encourages focus on doing what is important and not just increase that e-peen, also sets up for people learning to make less actions, more precise. To order a unit to the same spot 10 times compared to 1 really doesn't make a difference, apart from that guy doing it once can then do 9 other actions, while the guy doing it 10 times, well he wasted that time.
Now with that decently argued I feel I'd like to go onto my 2nd arguement (kinda) supporting this change.
And that is that the previous(or rather current) system seemed to be a cross between two things, now it becomes focused, to clarify what I mean:
In the current system (that many argue should stay because it keeps actions) if you (assuming default hotkeys) have a hatch selected and press SD without any larva then SD will translate to only 1 action. Since the S will be 1 action for trying to select larva, while D won't be anything since a hatch got no D command.
Such an action as SD is just as purposeful as "tapping" 3456 to check production. So why should the system punish one kind of "spammy" use of action, but not the other?
3456 is done to see that your buildings produce things, SD is done to make sure the moment larva is ready you build a drone with it.
There is no good simple reason that checking buildings are producing and trying to make drone asap is any less good than the other, to the degree that one deserves full APM payout while the other don't.
For this reason the measurement for APM is taking a good way to focus it now I feel, a different approach would be to have ANY button pressed, regardless if it does something or not, be counted as an action. Since in the example given with building a drone asap, it proves to times an action in essence not doing something still to the same degree "tapping" does it, tries accomplish a purposeful action.
To put down my points in a more simple straightforward way I'll have some short lines following: -New system is good because people will focus more on doing their openers optimally -Old(current) system is bad since it does everything only halfway -A different system could be changing APM to be any button pressed
And an unargued point in my post (meaning I havn't made it, but still something I feel should be mentioned)
-The number that the APM tab gives you at the end of a match or during a match helps you exactly this much for the next match:
On August 27 2011 04:21 PredY wrote: the change is pretty bad there's no reason to call it APM anymore. you know, the counter that showed how many ACTIONS you made per an actually minute
This is the best point in the thread, it no longer counts APM there is no way to get around it.
Truthfully though I disagree with the change. I'm going to APM spam regardless because it gets me used to playing quickly and helps with muscle memory, and I liked seeing the reflection in the replay because it made me feel happy.
this change is absolutely fine with me as long as for games played by diamond and lower players the APM bar doesnt show their APM...i wouldn't want them to feel bad about seeing their true APM
On August 27 2011 04:21 PredY wrote: the change is pretty bad there's no reason to call it APM anymore. you know, the counter that showed how many ACTIONS you made per an actually minute
haha so true. now it's like unique command issued per blizzard minute
I have a strong suspicion that some are against this change because it will reveal the "true" actions (of course people have a different definition of "true" in this case, rofl) that will be counted. The inflated APM will disappear and we'll get to see who's actually spending time on "more meaningful" actions.
I suppose there is a racial bias somewhere in there as well. I expect some will be shocked to learn the true nature of "actions" per different race (and players).
The change itself doesn't bother me, the sheer stupidity of the idea does though. It's like they're trying to give APM some sort of significance it was never supposed to have (at least not directly).
They brought it to the point where it neither tells you what your actual APM is, nor what your "useful" APM is (because an algorithm for that would be much more complex). It's just... some random derived number.
Somebody should make an overlay program that displays actual APM like in Brood War, that'd be quite cool.
I think this is a fine change. It seems to me like the newer "APM" will be a better measure of actual multitasking ability.
APM is already used as a de facto measurement for how much someone is able to do, i.e. we know that SjoW (with ~100 APM, more or less) has issues dealing with many things at a time quite simply because he isn't able to do enough in the same amount of time as someone that has higher APM.
This is just a more refined version of APM. It throws out a bit of what is usually garbage, i.e. someone spamming 1 - 2 - 1 - 2 in the beginning of the game to warm up their hands. That contributes nothing to the overall game. I think it might even make the beginning stages of the game more interesting because you would ostensibly be able to tell which players micro their beginning workers more (pairing up on minerals, etc.) and who just blasts out a ton of selections.
I consider this to be better information than the old APM calculation.
If you ask me this is kind of a relief to me because I often encounter people who rage at me for being "OP Terran" and i win with 30 less apm then them. But for the first 3 minutes while im talking to friends or checking TL they have 400 apm spam. I think this could truly show who has the most APM when it matters
Everyone who dislikes it simply does so because they want their e-peen to be stroked with high number counts.
If anyone can tell me how this affects the skill of the players, I'm willing to read into it, but so far the only crying I hear is how it's a blizzard minute, or about the fact that it's unique actions, not actions in general.
On August 27 2011 05:44 Dalavita wrote: The annoying part is that it doesn't register hotkey tapping, which is not spamming, it's an actual useful macro mechanic.
I foresee needing an advanced university degree to wade through all this unecessary blizzard weirdness in the not so distant future. This is just such a straight forward fix, multiply the ingame counter by whatever you need to get it to show actual apm; get a seperate eapm tab perhaps.
If tapping is relegated as clutter while move or a-move spamming isn't then this new system will be sooooooo broken.
On August 27 2011 07:05 Khenra wrote: I actually used my APM measurement to check if I was remembering to do my 'tapping'. This is a bad change, in my opinion.
yeah i do this to its also gratifying to see someone with 300 apm just spamming their 1 control group around while my 150 apm allows me to control 1-2 dropships plus my main army and economy
It's absolutely hilarious that people get so upset about others "spamming" and "boosting their APM" that Blizzard has to make a change to it. Guess why the pros actually do it? To warm up their hands and keep a steady pace throughout the game for when they actually have that amount of APM in the late game. Tracking early game APM means literally nothing because it's just players warming up their fingers and setting a pace for themselves, and it seriously makes me laugh that Blizzard cares so much to change it, and NOT EVEN MAKE IT ACTUAL APM STILL. Great works guys, you've definitely fixed the game with this one.
On August 27 2011 07:39 Angra wrote: It's absolutely hilarious that people get so upset about others "spamming" and "boosting their APM" that Blizzard has to make a change to it. Guess why the pros actually do it? To warm up their hands and keep a steady pace throughout the game for when they actually have that amount of APM in the late game. Tracking early game APM means literally nothing because it's just players warming up their fingers and setting a pace for themselves, and it seriously makes me laugh that Blizzard cares so much to change it, and NOT EVEN MAKE IT ACTUAL APM STILL. Great works guys, you've definitely fixed the game with this one.
Are you counting those "upset people"? I find it hilarious when someone asserts "everyone is complaining about ..." "geez so many of you are ... ", "Most people are ... ", when those "everyone" "most people" are a minority.
Those seem upset about the change (at least in this thread) are the ones who are "spamming" and those spams will not be counted due to this change. The others are simply either 1) indifferent or 2) somewhat gloat-y for those who boasted high "APM" can no longer do so after this change.
I am for this change. It is absolutely meaningless to see 500 APM spamming and casters go "wow, look how fast this guy is". It's much better who actually does tabs and clicks more that make differences in game than simply seeing unrealistic APM numbers while units are dying left and right. I mean, if someone has 500 APM you would think s/he wouldn't have trouble handling individual units/workers when maxed? You can only have 200 max units in this game.
Simply tapping around same units like a maniac doesn't mean much to viewers like me. Maybe that helps the player to keep the rythm. But that's the way s/he play the game (and her/his problem). If someone else does the same thing without spamming, then as a viewer, I'd value that just as much if not more.
Ok so spamming rally points still counts, but tabbing between production facilities doesn't?
I don't really get APM, for one I don't understand why changing camera position on the minimap or with camera hotkeys doesn't count.
This is ridiculous, it's not that I overly care, but it seems a complete non-issue. The theory that some people have thrown around regarding not scaring off the newbies rings sadly true to me. This isn't a massive issue by any means, but the whole dumbing down in areas like this to keep idiots playing the game because they can't handle having low APMs is ridiculous.
If that is the level to which Blizz want to dumb things down for the newbies, my hoped for overhauls of the game mechanics in HoTS are probably quite unlikely to happen
If somebody quits playing because they think that their APM is too low, it's no loss to the game community. Do people like this even exist?
Spamming rally points actually do consume screen time. You can't do anything else while spamming rally points. Besides, spamming rally points to raise your APM isn't a great way to win. XD
I am sure changing camera position counts toward APM but I would like someone to confirm. For instance, 234234234 won't count as 9 actions, but double-clicking 22 which takes you to that location would register as an action? Can someone test that? So if you double-clicking to change camera location, for instance 22-33-44-22-33-44 would count as 6 actions (6 different camera locations) in my assumption.
While I think it is kind of annoying that cycling through all my hatcheries to check larva spawning times no longer counts as an "action" I honestly don't think this really changes anything.
Hell, you could hotpatch this in without telling me and chances are I wouldn't notice in the slightest.
I'm not 100% sure on what you refer to, needs tested obviously. I am pretty certain however that using the F keys for camera hotkeying doesn't seem to count, I sometimes spam between my nexus and my first camera hotkey at the start of a game vs zerg (as it's at my ramp for walling in) and it doesn't seem to do anything. I do it more to make 100% sure I can time my probe pull and wall off perfectly though than to warmup my hands
Ok, the new algorithms for EAPM detection in the PTR are sort of ridiculous. Having played several games now testing them out of interest, I can confirm that repeated unique actions count towards apm (such as making a unit, but tapping and and other such camera movements do not count for squat.
I personally can't say I agree with this. I am quite good with hand speed and am able to jump around the place and multitask quite quickly, and I use the current APM reading as a simple way to make sure that I am jumping around as fast as my current ceiling allows.
One situation that doesn't make sense to me is regarding morphing banelings. The game does not register how fast you tap or switch camera screens, but it does register each time you morph a baneling? I tested a game vs. the computer and at around 15 minutes I morphed 100 banelings. Watching the replay, in that instant, my apm spiked to 300. Personally, that does not make sense.
I am against the change, as beyond spamming there are those who do move quite fast with the camera and managing control groups, and that speed should be accurately read and displayed.
But this won't stop me from playing the game by any means .
On August 27 2011 13:36 usethis2 wrote: Spamming rally points actually do consume screen time. You can't do anything else while spamming rally points. Besides, spamming rally points to raise your APM isn't a great way to win. XD
I am sure changing camera position counts toward APM but I would like someone to confirm. For instance, 234234234 won't count as 9 actions, but double-clicking 22 which takes you to that location would register as an action? Can someone test that? So if you double-clicking to change camera location, for instance 22-33-44-22-33-44 would count as 6 actions (6 different camera locations) in my assumption.
Camera movement does not count as an action, e.g., by scrolling, group selection, or camera hotkeys.
APM doesnt mean anything, and never will. do i care that they changed all that and stuff? nah but this is still fun to look at when ur watching a replay (APM taB)
It's the little useless changes like this that make me -_-.
First and most noticeable was the one patch where they force-enabled "smooth camera scrolling" in all first person views of replays.
Now they do this. What? Really? Not only is that detrimental to any lower-league players trying to learn how to be efficient at the game (To see how pros "tap" and cycle and such via replays) but it also encourages tunnelvision if you have apmwhores like me XD
Couldn't they simply implement an option under gameplay to only measure unique actions? I don't see the need to enforce this on everyone, for basically no reason.
There was a program in sc1 (sorry, I don't remember it's name offhand) that calculated what is considered to be "Eapm", e standing for effective. It removed redundant actions/spam/etc. What blizzard has done with by manipulating apm is neither true apm or Eapm but something that not really explainable and consequently worthless. Either leave apm as real apm, or go all the way and turn it into Eapm. This grey area that blizzard is currently in doesn't help anybody.
PS, I'm not up in arms about this, in fact I hardly care, I just don't see why blizzard would go out of their way to do this.
It would be nice if SC2 APM was the same as BW APM, and there was another tab called "DPM" for Decisions-Per-Minute, which doesn't include things such as repeated selections.
i dont see why they would do this but it influences nothing
i personally think that everyone plays differently, and spam helps me stay on my game much like not letting myself get flat footed helps me in football.
i guess its cool for spectators though, so they can truly appreciate how much faster someone like losira plays than the thousands of foreigners who have higher calculated apm.
On August 27 2011 13:36 usethis2 wrote: Spamming rally points actually do consume screen time. You can't do anything else while spamming rally points. Besides, spamming rally points to raise your APM isn't a great way to win. XD
I am sure changing camera position counts toward APM but I would like someone to confirm. For instance, 234234234 won't count as 9 actions, but double-clicking 22 which takes you to that location would register as an action? Can someone test that? So if you double-clicking to change camera location, for instance 22-33-44-22-33-44 would count as 6 actions (6 different camera locations) in my assumption.
Camera movement does not count as an action, e.g., by scrolling, group selection, or camera hotkeys.
How about double-clicking? That was the specific instance I wanted to confirm. Say you have rax in your main hotkey'ed to 1, and proxy starport hotkey'ed to 2. Double-clicking 1 (11) will take you to the rax, then double-clicking 2 (22) will take you to the starport. Repeat 10 times back and forth. Still considered one action?
Edit: tested myself and confirmed that it doesn't register as multiple actions. That's kind of dumb I have to admit.
Why cant they just change the apm to be realtime >.> They know its a problem but they choose to do some silly adjustments to the counting system instead of just adding 30pc.
As long as 3rd party APM calculators like sc2gears aren't affected, I don't really care. Their ingame APM calculation is illegitimate anyways seeing as it doesn't measure in real seconds and can't be compared to other rts games or bw.
On August 27 2011 07:39 Angra wrote: It's absolutely hilarious that people get so upset about others "spamming" and "boosting their APM" that Blizzard has to make a change to it. Guess why the pros actually do it? To warm up their hands and keep a steady pace throughout the game for when they actually have that amount of APM in the late game. Tracking early game APM means literally nothing because it's just players warming up their fingers and setting a pace for themselves, and it seriously makes me laugh that Blizzard cares so much to change it, and NOT EVEN MAKE IT ACTUAL APM STILL. Great works guys, you've definitely fixed the game with this one.
Are you counting those "upset people"? I find it hilarious when someone asserts "everyone is complaining about ..." "geez so many of you are ... ", "Most people are ... ", when those "everyone" "most people" are a minority.
I guess I misspoke. I don't really mean that so many people are upset, more than so many people seem to make a big deal about early game APM, regardless of if it's in a positive light or not, essentially drawing attention to it when it means literally nothing.
If this makes APM a slightly more useful statistic to look at then it can only be a good thing.
At the moment it can't be considered anything more than a vanity stat since spamming completely overwhelms the actual actions that players are making. Given how much attention is given to the statistic (and will always be given to it) this is pretty detrimental. First because any sort of analysis done around it is fundamentally flawed. And second because it gives a false impression to players trying to learn the game and leads them to focus on improving the wrong things (I've lost count of the number of times I've heard Bronze-Gold players saying that they're concentrating on increasing their APM, which ultimately means spamming instead of having it increase naturally as their macro/micro improves).
A lot of people are saying that it still won't show EAPM, but I'd much rather see a step forward made than no step at all. And on a personal note I'll be mildly curious to see how many of the people who are warming up their hands now switch their spamming to new ways that will be included in the APM tab.
On August 27 2011 15:32 Dzerzhinsky wrote: If this makes APM a slightly more useful statistic to look at then it can only be a good thing.
No, it makes looking at apm statistic worthless. All this does is reward those who spam in ways approved by blizzard whether by accident or intentionally and punish those who don't. John doe could have 150 apm because 100 of that is spamming right click (approved by blizzard) while John Dane could have 50 apm because he is spamming 456 (not approved by blizzard). The only way to measure/compare apm is to let no spam count or let all spam count.
On August 27 2011 15:09 3clipse wrote: As long as 3rd party APM calculators like sc2gears aren't affected, I don't really care. Their ingame APM calculation is illegitimate anyways seeing as it doesn't measure in real seconds and can't be compared to other rts games or bw.
They will be...or at least it doesn't register the "extra APM" from what I get (at least if you turn on the apm counter thing/overlay that sc2gears has, if it's still kept in replay, idk, I haven't tried that....)
what about clicking ? Still the same or change? My APM is around 80-110 depend on MU. Lol this would mean I will have around 50-60 though( I'm not spamming around in mid game)
Couldn't really care less about APM, I'll still spam at the start to warm up, and tap to check research timings etc. The measurement makes no difference to how fast I can actually play...
Seriously. What are they smokin at Blizzard Office? Remember when they randomly came up with removing the losses out of the profile for everyone below masters?! And now they are changing the way APM are displayed?! Why making it so unnecessary complicated Blizzard? Lacking ideas to improve the game reasonably? People are asking for replaysharing for example. No, they are wasting their time, thinking about useless things like this.
I don't really get it, all it is now is micro apm. Clicking to move a unit 9 times in basically the same spot is still spam, just as tapping your groups to see whats going on is important.
Why can't they just leave it as is? especially because older patch replays will have the old system etc.
come on, APM was never any way to compare players. Maybe there is a *minimum* APM to play at a high level (including multitasking etc.) but it's no way to measure your success. The whole APM thing is just a waste of time
Why does anyone complain about spam in the first place, it doesn't have any benefit so those who choose to spam have every right to do so if it makes them feel better. I think those who think APM is soo important need to realize this is starcraft 2 not Brood War
i dont really care, but i mean, if they are going to have an APM tab, they shouldn't draw an arbitrary line on what is an action or not. so in the end, i think it's kind of dumb.
Funny move to make something that is already extremely broken even more broken. I have been annoyed at the "blizzard apm" since I started playing sc2 and now they are going to make it even more insignificant. Doubt that it will affect my apm by much but I had aready stopped caring about "blizzard apm" as a measure of apm a year ago. I've been hoping that they would fix their broken game time and they use their office hours at making something even more wrong than the original blunder. Really confused why they put game time on normal if they didnt plan to use that for default speed anyway.
EDIT:If you spend your game selecting a critter over and over it is still an action and should be counted. APM is not a measurement of skill or intelligence for that matter.
On August 27 2011 17:09 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I want to see apm as an accurate figure, to get some idea of how many useful actions the pros are doing, and this is a step in the right direction
what you want already exist its called Eapm (effective actions per minutes) however the thing that is discussed is blizzard changing the normal APM to Eapm while still calling it APM which tottaly butchers its meaning.
This in turn will make it so its no way comparable to Broodwar APM with the weird minutes and with it only counting certain things as actions.
On August 27 2011 15:32 Dzerzhinsky wrote: If this makes APM a slightly more useful statistic to look at then it can only be a good thing.
No, it makes looking at apm statistic worthless. All this does is reward those who spam in ways approved by blizzard whether by accident or intentionally and punish those who don't. John doe could have 150 apm because 100 of that is spamming right click (approved by blizzard) while John Dane could have 50 apm because he is spamming 456 (not approved by blizzard). The only way to measure/compare apm is to let no spam count or let all spam count.
And spamming 456 checking on your production facilities isn't even wasted APM...
To all those saying that this will show the true effective actions: Are you dense?
Tapping is not ineffective but essential. Keeping a routine going is not spam, it makes it easier to nail your production rounds perfectly every single time.
APM as it stands now, shows exactly what people are doing, and it is pretty easy to determine which actions are useless and which ones have meaning. If you aren't smart enough to understand that and just see APM as a useless number then sorry, but please educate yourself.
This will be a ridiculous change that only makes it harder to determine what a player is doing in terms of actions and why. Of course there will be spammers that have 200 apm by just switching control groups for fun, but they are easy to spot and only kid themselves.
And EAPM is not the correct word for what it will be in 1.4 if this would be released with it. What may be spam for person A, might be effective actions for player B.
And for the people that get angry or annoyed by the "people spamming hitting 200 apm", are you kidding me? Does that actually piss you off? An ignorable stat for you if you know the person is just being silly and spamming for naught pisses you off? Perhaps you should channel your attention and focus into more important stuff. (perhaps Blizzard can implement a toggle for you guys so the APM display will only show your own APM if you cannot handle "spammers")
its funny how so many say its a good thing, and its even more funny that you think that swtiching control groups is spamming... but using 500 clicks for what could be one isnt.. wow!
(i know bw sc2 comparisons are stupid and lame, but i simply have to here)
in bw, controlgroup switching actually meant good multitasking. you prolly had 1-4 control groups for units 5-8 for buildings and 9-0 for nexuses (if u were protoss) and then for map positions u had the F-keys. you had to switch through all buildings to reproduce units. thats why mechanics actually mattered. in bw chart, could check what you used ur actions for, good players had large part of their actions on control groups and buildings.. not so good players did only click around like angry chickens.
so what has changed? control groups are not as important as you have 1-2, building selection is not as important as you can have all of them on one hotkey. thats one reason why apm was not as important in sc2 than it was in bw, thats also the reason why sc2 apm were naturally lower (also wen translated into bw apm) than bw apm, you just had less actions.
but because apm is like the size of your dick, and people were embarrassed with their low apm (although sc2 apm are also different from bw apm) they started clicking like monkeys on crack.
okay the point that I am trying to make is this:
i get that hotkey selection does not have to be counted as unique actions, because it is not as important as it was in bw where you constantly needed to go through all your control groups and buildings. but at the same time, why is useless clicking still counted as unique actions? i mean having the same unit (group) selected and clicking in the same 10pixel frame within 5 seconds for 10000k times should really not count 10000k actions.
It SHOULD really help out with sorting real apm from spam apm. On the most positive outlook possible, I'd say that compared to a pro or some other player (maybe a practice partner) it would help a player maybe realize that they're not playing as fast as they think, and that they're actually missing out on a lot of things. For example moving your army around and pre splitting is more important than tapping, and it'd be good to know which is which.
APM should just be APM. Actions per (Real) Minute. Just change it so it measures in real minutes versus Starcraft minutes, that's the biggest flaw with it right now. There's no point in having a new system, APM should be the same across every game. SC2 shouldn't have its own fancy concept of APM, stick with the standard.
Of course if they add EAPM in addition to normal APM and fix the minutes issue, then that would be an amazing addition. Otherwise, it'll just be back to Brood War, using other programs to measure APM.
Finally APM will have some utility. I welcome this change just like i welcomed the introduction of the clock. Another change from Blizzard that BW people are too stubborn to accept just because it's something different from what they're used to. Gj Blizzard.
If it ain't broke dont fix it. How often do you honestly hear the community crying out for changes to the apm calculations...? This change has no fundamental affect on the way the game will be played or the balance of it and as such serves no purpose. All it does is waterdown the epeen spammers boners when they watch their own replays, if that was the intended course of action why not just remove the APM tab altogether?
I think its bad because if u press 234 its 3 actions, so if some of them dosent count then then the apm will be wrong, I think an "action" is when u click and just use ur keyboard. So why change it it will just be bad and confusing. I will addmit that i spam, but if i see my apm at like 50 u feel so bad imo. I hope they wont change the apm.
The changes are both a good and a bad thing. While it keeps players from endlessly spamming 123 without even looking at what they're selecting, sometimes these massive selections are sometimes used to multitask multiple armies. It also makes some players' APM look artifiicially lower than it really is in the same way 123 spam made APM look artificially larger. Blizzard wants players to focus less on APM and more on good mechanics.
I do wish they had an APM counter exactly like Broodwar's, but this new more selective counter is good as well. If anything, they should have both a BW style counter and a selective one so people don't think BW players are like 3x faster than SC2 players. I mean, NaDa's ~400 BW APM will be reported as 120 in SC2. If you watch him play first person view, you'll realize how heavily he relies on hotkeys and how often he uses them. Of course, he won't care if his APM is reported to be lower. He's still playing at a really high level and he still has pretty much the same APM as when he played Broodwar... It's just that SC2 will report it as a third of what he used to play at.
It's not like we should really care what our APM is anyway, since we should just focus on improving our mechanics and builds. Of course it would be nice to have our mechanics work at a target APM we can aim for, but this new system will be mainly mechanics based APM, so we can still set and aim for that target. However, we're less likely to know when our "tapping" is off or slacking because it won't show up in the APM meter anymore. I guess we have to try to tap as much as we can remember to all game while also doing everything else to improve our mechanics. Work to maintain that 280 APM level tapping speed all game now while you can still measure it! ^^
On August 27 2011 17:47 phiinix wrote: I think it's good/ don't care too much.
It SHOULD really help out with sorting real apm from spam apm. On the most positive outlook possible, I'd say that compared to a pro or some other player (maybe a practice partner) it would help a player maybe realize that they're not playing as fast as they think, and that they're actually missing out on a lot of things. For example moving your army around and pre splitting is more important than tapping, and it'd be good to know which is which.
rofl, you really don't know what the F your talking about!
reading a bit of discussion instead of replying straight to the op might have helped, but often times thats too much to expect..
u really dont know how important hotkeys are do you? maybe analyze a replay and check out what makes up more "useless" apm, hotkeys, or useless clicking.
this is another good point (one that i tried to make earlier):
On August 27 2011 19:19 RyLai wrote:
I do wish they had an APM counter exactly like Broodwar's, but this new more selective counter is good as well. If anything, they should have both a BW style counter and a selective one so people don't think BW players are like 3x faster than SC2 players. I mean, NaDa's ~400 BW APM will be reported as 120 in SC2. If you watch him play first person view, you'll realize how heavily he relies on hotkeys and how often he uses them. Of course, he won't care if his APM is reported to be lower. He's still playing at a really high level and he still has pretty much the same APM as when he played Broodwar... It's just that SC2 will report it as a third of what he used to play at.
Doesn't matter, spamming in technical terms is just throwing away energy hitting keys when you could be playing as efficiently as possible by not spamming and saving your "energy" on hitting the keys only you need to. Also for people who spam they always say "I do it to be warmed up not for APM" so it shouldn't matter to them what so ever if that is true.
I think sc2analysis.com had the same system when it came to analyzing APM. So spam in the very beginning did not count.
I think it's awesome because I feel pretty freaking awesome when I realistically spike up to like 320 APM during the late game actually doing relevant things when people keep on spouting about how APM is all spam and useless. Shows you suckers whos boss now kekeke... now if only I could scout better =_=
Just give us a button that lets us decide what system we would like to use. It shouldn't be too much extra work to give a toggle option or anything really.
This is really good, now you can actually tell if a person is fast or just a retard that spams away. But someone actually.
So funny i had a protoss down talking me for having 25apm in the first 2mins of the game while his apm was an "amazing" 200 while my apm jumped to 75 averege end game and his averege dropped to 70 it's just proof that he was a lot slower than i was. but no, according to him he was the skilled one and i was playing the OP race.
I'd like to take this time to comment on how Ridiculous blizzard has spent all of their efforts into fixing things that are extremely unimportant to our starcraft 2 wings of liberty experience. I think we should focus our attention to the real matter at hand: battle net font colo(u)rs.
With all 1337 blizzard technical employees changing their project schedules from fixing APM issues into creating elaborate and expressive font colour changes, we would be able to efficiently type in battle.net chat with emotions beyond belief. Think of the possibilities. They could make it so that the colo(u)r of your text changes according to your mood. Red-der chat would signal epic rage approaching, while the increase of blue and purple shades would signal stupidity and time-wasted-facepalming epic comments so that you could start ignoring people the minute you saw the colo(u)r change.
Maybe TL could do it too. This forum post would prob be at only page 2 though.
On August 27 2011 23:49 Granter wrote: This is really good, now you can actually tell if a person is fast or just a retard that spams away. But someone actually.
So funny i had a protoss down talking me for having 25apm in the first 2mins of the game while his apm was an "amazing" 200 while my apm jumped to 75 averege end game and his averege dropped to 70 it's just proof that he was a lot slower than i was. but no, according to him he was the skilled one and i was playing the OP race.
Facepalmed myself so hard.
I keep seeing comments like this in this thread all the time. If this is seriously why people want the APM system to be changed, I am at a loss for words. That's the most ridiculous reason period. Perhaps it is time to grow past this behaviour. You yourself know if someone is spamming mindlessly, or tapping with reason. Why should it matter then if you know the truth anyway?
This is an invalid reason to change the system and if a change goes through with this being the core thought it is time for all the proper players to facepalm.
I think the APM change is bad.. what ever blizzard is throwing in there after the patch shouldn't be called APM. It just doesn't record all your actions.
I don't think people understand players with high apm. Most of them honestly don't give a shit about the big numbers, but it keeps them focused. I play much better at 250+ apm, it keeps my head in the game.
Also why the hell doesn't the new patch have a bunker change? I'm pissed. Obviously blizzard doesn't care about the game if they won't change the bunker build time!
the reason people think it is bad is because people always want a reason to think that they're better than they are...... now apm is gone for them so they're angry
It is a bad change because it does not count certain actions while it does count others.
Going 4-5-6-7 every X seconds to check production/chrono activity/injects or whatever is not ineffective spamming, it's trying to be as spot on as can be with macro.
The new change abolishes all of that, but still leaves in spam clicking as counted actions.
And those that use APM to measure their skill, well let them have their silly bubble, you know wether or not the APM of a player is valid or not, as it can be observed.
Just give an option to switch between measurement systems if it's really going to be implemented because the new system as far as PTR testing goes is majorly flawed.
Edit: Odal, you, me and many more are constantly trying to explain the proper value of APM and how it should be read. But people just seem to be ignorant when it comes to educating themselves and musing over an aspect like APM from every angle before posting.
I just cannot believe that a large amount of posts in this thread try to justify a so far flawed new measurement system so people cannot boast about their start of the game APM anymore.
Hint: people using APM as the end all, be all measure of skill, while not understanding why professional players reach said APM by using effective tapping actions, and then start spamming their own little keys just for APM boosts instead of actual use to boast about it, are just silly.
It is SO easy to seperate a real high APM player that actually uses the APM from a silly person just spamming to get a higher count. The APM system should not be changed in a way that removes the display of tapping routines and selection actions just because of a few silly geese that do not understand how current APM meters should be read.
Seems to me that the average level of posting is declining as of late on TL.
1: Think before you post 2: Try to come up with solutions or added value for discussion
On August 28 2011 01:29 Grapefruit wrote: It blows my mind that some people actually think that this change is "bad".
Seriously, what the fuck?!
It can be bad because it ruins the original, non-blizzard-related definition of APM. If blizzard is trying to make APM into EAPM, they should just call it an EAPM and leave APM the way it is. They didn't create APM so they shouldn't have the right to change what it stands for.
why has this thread gotten soo much attention. who the fuck even cares. it doesn't make a difference .....at all...for anything...
APM means one thing literally. Actions Per Minute. not how well you can micro. not how fast your reflexes are. not what league you're in. not if you're better than someone else or not. it means actions per minute. that's it. that's all it means, literally.
APM can only be measurable on a personal basis. you can't compare yours to someone elses.
if you do keep track of your own consistently however. you will be able to tell if you're game is speeding up or slowing down if it's gradually trending upwards or downward over ap eriod of time. it's impossible to relate it to someone elses though. because no two people are the same..
Brood war didn't actually count your APM right, you had to run an outside program in the replay to count it, if people were so concerned, why not just start doing this?
On August 27 2011 19:19 RyLai wrote: While it keeps players from endlessly spamming 123 without even looking at what they're selecting
wtf....!??!!? do you honestly think "spamming" is done as a conscious effort by people in some misplaced retarded hope that someone will open up one of their replays one day and gasp at their "L33T APM" ?!?!!?
i guarantee you the VAST majority of spamming is done out of sheer habit from learning and developing your muscle memory for the game. what the hell difference does it make either way? it's not even a good thing. just like it's not a bad thing. it's just a random ass, arbitrary change to one of the mechanics in the in game meters work.
The reason why I don't like this change is because I can use the APM meter to measure my mechanical improvement. I built up my tapping speed first, then I went to add one task at a time to improve the efficiency in chunks while still having a near constant tapping loop going on.
The meter actually helps me to find the small gaps where my efficiency falters, where it might not be too apparent on the naked eye. It is a handy tool for improvement even at master and higher. You can pinpoint issues faster. Changing the measurement system into something weird and flawed is not really a good change.
Just leave it be, make the new system an optional system that can be toggled, and be done with it.
On August 28 2011 02:31 Masayume wrote: The reason why I don't like this change is because I can use the APM meter to measure my mechanical improvement. I built up my tapping speed first, then I went to add one task at a time to improve the efficiency in chunks while still having a near constant tapping loop going on.
The meter actually helps me to find the small gaps where my efficiency falters, where it might not be too apparent on the naked eye. It is a handy tool for improvement even at master and higher. You can pinpoint issues faster. Changing the measurement system into something weird and flawed is not really a good change.
Just leave it be, make the new system an optional system that can be toggled, and be done with it.
Pretty much this, I don't spam so I can use apm as a yardstick to measure how much I improve (ie how much faster I get at playing over time while doing the same things). However I do tap, and without that counting there isn't a good way to measure progress in this aspect of my play. Also, people will still find a way to spam regardless of this change (spam clicking ect.) so its pointless. The people who are going hurrr durr e-peen need to think this through a bit more.
mmm a change to not care about really. I actually like it. If you use the apm thing to improve, you should use an external apm meter anyway. So its quiet nice, though it still counts spamming move and stuff, so not really what i would hope for.
edit: this is one of those changes, that could go in a misc menu under options, but maybe it would produce to much unnecessary resource usage
It amazes me that Blizz is going through a process of re-defining apm (cause they can) and yet they don't bother fixing the game clock so that the apm count is calculated with real time.
Classic modern blizzard. Trying to be flashy and cool yet ignoring the fundamental problems.
On August 28 2011 01:37 Odal wrote: I literally just explained why people apm spam yet there are like 5 posts of people like DURR APM SPAM JUST FOR E PEEN DURR. Does anyone even read?
Cycling is useful, but there's plenty of other useless ways to spam. Box selecting your workers over and over again is not useful.
Why people are talking stuff like " well this will affect me/ this wont affect me " lol affect in what? apm measure? i think people that stated that should focus on more important starcraft 2 mechanics stuff than rather numbers...
I used to have 230 220 apm, i dont give a fuck if it will go down to 90, so what lol xD
this will make bad players feel better because their apm is so low. flipping through binds is a fucking must for managing macro/micro, and if its not counted then people who dont do it wont be differentiated. That being said APM is a necessary but not sufficient condition for skill, meaning you cant be good with 20 apm but you can be complete shit just spamming 1k apm not doing anything. all in all meh on this change, scv count/production/engagements are a better indicator of skill anyways.
i think this change is just as stupid as the EAPM thing that happened in BW. It only effects certain spam methods, and when the UI thing is shown in streams and tournaments, you will see some high level players apm drop to noob levels while others still have pretty high rate. and it may even remove certain moments where it looks like spam but its actually not. Say I need to keep running 2 groups around and I keep selecting them back and forth to make sure i can center the location on them and check the wireframe colors.
Besides that, I don't give a fuck if the apm is falsely inflated by spam, the player is still doing XXX actions WHILE THEY ARE COMPETING AT PROFESSIONAL LEVELS. that is skill no matter how you choose to look at it. Just like in speed runs of games they often do cute little wasteful moves or spam motions that look odd/cool even though it adds nothing to the run (or even slows it down). Its just showmanship.
Is there honestly a problem with apm? cant blizzard use their time in a more efficient way than fucking with how the game records apm? if it aint broke dont fix it.
After the patch: 245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored) 2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued) 52m52m52m = 6 actions (1 for the initial "5" selection, 1 for each move issued)
I don't understand. Making barracks, factory, and starport units at the same time actually requires APM.and with the 52m52m52m example, is your first hotkey selection the ONLY one counted in your apm? All the other selections would be ignored if this example is the case...
The people who have argued that this change is bad, still haven't touched on how it affects players skill in game, and if it doesn't, then this change has no impact on the game at any level. You can still cycle until your hearts content, and if you want to see the speed at which you're doing that in the form of a really big number, then yes you are simply stroking your epeen.
sorry to be ignorant, but is this effective already?? because i tend to be more spammy towards the beginning, and yet my avg. apm throughout a game has shot up a good deal when i've barely changed anything in how i've played at all
edit: ah sorry, upcoming patch
this will be interesting because i'm sure it will affect the mentality of some players. someone who has not yet reached the top of some sort of their skill ceiling, or someone who is constantly looking for different ways on improving their style is going to come across habits that can be reflected through APM. this statistic will change completely, and if they use that stat. as a gauge, so will their play even if it's ever so slightly.
it might not matter to you, but it matters to some people.
on another note,through teaching/bringing some of my friends over to starcraft and starcraft 2 as newbies, i felt that someone with 60apm was not going to be able to deal with multiple forms of harass while on multiple bases, while still being able to somewhat do whatever it is that they were wanting to do.
This is a pretty dumb change, APM is APM regardless of how much of it is spam. If they care so much about APM values they should've just added in an effective APM tab like what the Broodwar programs all had. Anyways, when I read the title I was hoping Blizzard was finally changing APM to reflect on real time rather than in-game time, disappointed.
The point is that APM becomes a useless statistic now. Since it no longer actually measures APM, it doesn't really measure anything.
Give it a different name, like effective APM, and add it on. Taking a statistic and butchering it and then claiming that it is still the same statistic just makes it worthless.
On August 28 2011 01:37 Odal wrote: I literally just explained why people apm spam yet there are like 5 posts of people like DURR APM SPAM JUST FOR E PEEN DURR. Does anyone even read?
did the same, ppl never read.. as proves the following:
On August 28 2011 01:29 Grapefruit wrote: It blows my mind that some people actually think that this change is "bad".
Seriously, what the fuck?!
= dumb
or this:
On August 28 2011 01:32 Xenocryst wrote: the reason people think it is bad is because people always want a reason to think that they're better than they are...... now apm is gone for them so they're angry
= rofl
tried to explain that as well:
On August 28 2011 01:37 Masayume wrote: It is a bad change because it does not count certain actions while it does count others.
Going 4-5-6-7 every X seconds to check production/chrono activity/injects or whatever is not ineffective spamming, it's trying to be as spot on as can be with macro.
The new change abolishes all of that, but still leaves in spam clicking as counted actions.
And those that use APM to measure their skill, well let them have their silly bubble, you know wether or not the APM of a player is valid or not, as it can be observed.
Just give an option to switch between measurement systems if it's really going to be implemented because the new system as far as PTR testing goes is majorly flawed.
Edit: Odal, you, me and many more are constantly trying to explain the proper value of APM and how it should be read. But people just seem to be ignorant when it comes to educating themselves and musing over an aspect like APM from every angle before posting.
I just cannot believe that a large amount of posts in this thread try to justify a so far flawed new measurement system so people cannot boast about their start of the game APM anymore.
Hint: people using APM as the end all, be all measure of skill, while not understanding why professional players reach said APM by using effective tapping actions, and then start spamming their own little keys just for APM boosts instead of actual use to boast about it, are just silly.
It is SO easy to seperate a real high APM player that actually uses the APM from a silly person just spamming to get a higher count. The APM system should not be changed in a way that removes the display of tapping routines and selection actions just because of a few silly geese that do not understand how current APM meters should be read.
Seems to me that the average level of posting is declining as of late on TL.
1: Think before you post 2: Try to come up with solutions or added value for discussion
On August 28 2011 06:26 Zdrastochye wrote: The people who have argued that this change is bad, still haven't touched on how it affects players skill in game, and if it doesn't, then this change has no impact on the game at any level. You can still cycle until your hearts content, and if you want to see the speed at which you're doing that in the form of a really big number, then yes you are simply stroking your epeen.
Sad but true.
Completely agree with this point of view and it's very to the point. People, this new APM measurement does NOT stop you from cycling around your hotkeys. You can do whatever you want with your hotkeys like you have been doing. It won't affect your skill nor win/loss. If you're upset because you can't see how fast you're doing that.. then yeah, it's more of a e-peen thing than anything else.
There *might* be some folks who actually measure their skill improvement with how fast they have been cycling, but I have to assume those are minority and they will not stop improving their skills because of this.
Besides which, it is irritating for casters to compare APM between the players in the middle of a game and attempt to leave impression to viewers who's better player, who's higher-level, who's with BW-background and whatnot. And this game is not BW. It's always puzzling to see people try to draw parallel between SC2 and BW.
On August 28 2011 06:26 Zdrastochye wrote: The people who have argued that this change is bad, still haven't touched on how it affects players skill in game, and if it doesn't, then this change has no impact on the game at any level. You can still cycle until your hearts content, and if you want to see the speed at which you're doing that in the form of a really big number, then yes you are simply stroking your epeen.
Sad but true.
Completely agree with this point of view and it's very to the point. People, this new APM measurement does NOT stop you from cycling around your hotkeys. You can do whatever you want with your hotkeys like you have been doing. It won't affect your skill nor win/loss. If you're upset because you can't see how fast you're doing that.. then yeah, it's more of a e-peen thing than anything else.
There *might* be some folks who actually measure their skill improvement with how fast they have been cycling, but I have to assume those are minority and they will not stop improving their skills because of this.
Besides which, it is irritating for casters to compare APM between the players in the middle of a game and attempt to leave impression to viewers who's better player, who's higher-level, who's with BW-background and whatnot. And this game is not BW. It's always puzzling to see people try to draw parallel between SC2 and BW.
Too bad no one GAINS anything from this change so it makes it completely useless. As for casters making too big a deal about APM, that's their problem being bad casters and not a problem with the APM system.
On August 28 2011 06:26 Zdrastochye wrote: The people who have argued that this change is bad, still haven't touched on how it affects players skill in game, and if it doesn't, then this change has no impact on the game at any level. You can still cycle until your hearts content, and if you want to see the speed at which you're doing that in the form of a really big number, then yes you are simply stroking your epeen.
Sad but true.
Completely agree with this point of view and it's very to the point. People, this new APM measurement does NOT stop you from cycling around your hotkeys. You can do whatever you want with your hotkeys like you have been doing. It won't affect your skill nor win/loss. If you're upset because you can't see how fast you're doing that.. then yeah, it's more of a e-peen thing than anything else.
There *might* be some folks who actually measure their skill improvement with how fast they have been cycling, but I have to assume those are minority and they will not stop improving their skills because of this.
Besides which, it is irritating for casters to compare APM between the players in the middle of a game and attempt to leave impression to viewers who's better player, who's higher-level, who's with BW-background and whatnot. And this game is not BW. It's always puzzling to see people try to draw parallel between SC2 and BW.
Too bad no one GAINS anything from this change so it makes it completely useless. As for casters making too big a deal about APM, that's their problem being bad casters and not a problem with the APM system.
I dunno it's pretty cool watching top players who if you check their FPPOV during a battle, theyll be doing various shit with their units but also go 456 to check on their macro - it's HOW they stay on top of macro during big fights!
The only APM change I'm interested is making it measured in real minutes instead of game minutes. All this change does is make the statistic measure nothing. It still doesn't measure EAPM, because there's still spam clicking move actions to the same location and shit like that.
If every valid action needs to be synchronized with the server, and players spam 300-400 APM at the beginning of the game by selecting workers, it makes perfect sense to find a workaround. I think the intention was not to redefine the term APM by filtering actions, but rather to reduce the bandwidth usage.
"Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes."
Maybe it's just me, but the way I read this, "245245245" still will count as 9 actions, given that they aren't being repeatedly selected. I think this would be ideal, as it allows a player diligently tapping to see an increased apm, whereas someone simply spamming 444444444 doesn't.
All this changes is a number shown only in the replay. The only time you would need to look at your apm in a replay is to try to get an idea of how fast you are playing and how well you are multitasking and this will help you do that. Completely for the change.
"Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes."
Maybe it's just me, but the way I read this, "245245245" still will count as 9 actions, given that they aren't being repeatedly selected. I think this would be ideal, as it allows a player diligently tapping to see an increased apm, whereas someone simply spamming 444444444 doesn't.
I really don't see why this was necessary. Some people just like to measure their APM, whether its effective or useful APM or not. It didn't hurt anyone.
If they wanted a stat that showed Effective APM, they should have just made a new stat that showed it. Now this stat is called "Actions Per Minute" but it doesn't actually show your Actions Per Minute anymore.
On August 28 2011 14:09 dest1ny wrote: If every valid action needs to be synchronized with the server, and players spam 300-400 APM at the beginning of the game by selecting workers, it makes perfect sense to find a workaround. I think the intention was not to redefine the term APM by filtering actions, but rather to reduce the bandwidth usage.
I would suspect it's still going to send the action?? How can the game predict if you intend to do another action when you choose a group? It has to send all info in case you do move the group.
All actions should be counted, to fit the term "Actions Per Minute". what they could do is not count multiple identical selections in a row, such as "9mmmmmmmm" (would not apply to control groups, as double clicking has a use, centering the screen on whatever it is).
I just did a couple test games between PTR and the live patch as of now. I average around 150-175 now and around 70-80 on the PTR. Just funny to actually see the cycling through and looking at your gate/robo/tech structures doesn't actually give you any APM in the new patch. I could care less either way, splitting and micro apm is actually going to show through more.
In general, I'm a fan of giving the end users the option to decide for themselves. Instead of Blizz saying "You don't want LAN", I want there to be both LAN and Battle.net and then I can decide for myself. I don't want Blizz saying "You don't want chat rooms", I want there to be chat rooms and then I can decide for myself whether to use them or not. And I don't want Blizz saying "You don't want to see your rate of tapping". I want there to be an option to see both "APM" and "Effective APM" and then I can decide for myself which one to use. Exactly what actions should be considered "Effective APM" is less important to me, because I simply expect Blizz to do it right, and the important part is the idea of giving the end user as much functionality as possible. Especially when the code for tapping APM is already written.
The above post is correct to me, they are just redefining terms by changing this basically. Yes you can spam to make your APM higher. Why was that ever an issue. I find it to be a useful measurement in it's normal form.. we wouldn't have made tools to measure it if it wasn't. We also have eAPM for what Blizzard is trying to do. What looks like a pointless action could be me simply checking my groups because i want to see what's going on? Selecting a group is a valid action that doesn't need a follow up, if you don't count it then it's not even APM anymore. When i see my BW APM as 170 i know that i did some decent (for my standards) multitask when muta harassing. If it's lower i try harder.
You could still find a way to spam your APM up if there was any reason to...
Actually interested to see my "real" APM, but its not going to stop me from spamming. In the early game, I think most players agree it keeps them warmed up and focused. I don't mind the change at all really, but it seems like a change my casual SC2 friends would make who actually get annoyed when they see people spam, like its some injustice they're artificially inflating their e-peen.
I guess for newer players it'll help you realize that actions are better spent on something useful and APM != skill, but most people who really can sustain 200apm+ already know that. Maybe I'm just being a grumpy BW hipster.
On August 28 2011 19:13 shindigs wrote: Actually interested to see my "real" APM, but its not going to stop me from spamming. In the early game, I think most players agree it keeps them warmed up and focused. I don't mind the change at all really, but it seems like a change my casual SC2 friends would make who actually get annoyed when they see people spam, like its some injustice they're artificially inflating their e-peen.
I guess for newer players it'll help you realize that actions are better spent on something useful and APM != skill, but most people who really can sustain 200apm+ already know that. Maybe I'm just being a grumpy BW hipster.
No you're right. It's easier to go from a state of motion (spam) to something needed. Spamming increases your reaction times and when you're not a great player as you get better you learn to fill that empty APM (spam) with needed actions. It's useful.
If anyone remembers, before release there was a lot of chatter from Browder about creating useful statistics so that a player could track his progress and so on. The APM tab and the floating minerals statistic at the end of the game are essentially what remains of that. There are some other stats too, but those aren't really useful for tracking your own improvement.
What I would like to see is a wider array of stats available that battle.net saves for you and can display in a progress-over-time graph, so you can see how much better you have become purely mechanically. Some people are fixated on APM, but it's not the most useful statistic out there - at least, I can think of several more interesting ones: actions broken up in selections, commands, screen switching. Effective actions per minute. How much you use your production facilities, how low your energy for macro mechanics stays, and so on.
I don't really like the change at all. I don't think it's gonna be a big deal, I just like viewing my APM because if I can keep it up over the game I find myself playing better. If I 2-rax without APM spamming I end up making stupid mistakes. APM doesn't mean much, but for me I like being able to look at replays and see if I'm getting faster or something.
I think this actually makes unrealistic measurement on true apm... sometimes u spam 122343321 to check the status of units (hp, location, upgrade time left, unit build time left) and it's actually a valuable action for players. Counting that as non-action sounds odd to me.
I think the people claiming APM is a useful stat are either a) criticizing Blizzard for the sake of criticizing Blizzard or b) focusing on a superficial stat when actual gameplay results would be more useful. You claim you need spam apm to keep track of your progress, when in fact it's much easier and clearer to keep track of progress by looking at what actually happens in your games. Are you keeping up on upgrades, keeping your money low, doing what you need to do with your army on the map, etc? You don't need a number to answer those questions for you. If I had to guess I'd say you just want a big APM number because you think it's cool/makes you look good.
I personally only spam apm at the beginning of the game, and I don't even spam APM at the beginning of the game anymore because I check TL, change music, and force mining from the close patches instead I think this will encourage (some) people to force their workers to mine from close patches instead of spamming 123123123123123123123123123123123123123123123123, which is a good thing
Before the patch: 245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made)"
Maybe there is a little mistake here. You don't actually have APM if you spam 2 and 4 (without any action between each) and if these groups have the SAME units in it. It equals to do nothing, and i made the test to check. At the moment it's 6 actions that are counted, and it will be only 1.
And yet again someone posts an uneducated one liner that adds absolutely nothing to this discussion. I guess it's destined for the thread to get drowned out. Gg gl to anyone trying to bring reason to this discussion, I'm done.
On August 29 2011 03:00 StefooL wrote: "you have 2 and 4 bound to drones
[...]
Before the patch: 245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made)"
Maybe there is a little mistake here. You don't actually have APM if you spam 2 and 4 (without any action between each) and if these groups have the SAME units in it. It equals to do nothing, and i made the test to check. At the moment it's 6 actions that are counted, and it will be only 1.
Would I be wrong ?
If 2 and 4 are bound to the same drone, then you're right. If they're bound to separate drones, then they count as separate actions. When I wrote that, I assumed they were separate drones (naturally, since that is my opening hotkey setup and left-hand spam).
Other than that I'm glad to hear Blizzard is at work on important things like clan supportnope, finally protecting map makershaha as advertised before release and stopping apm spammers dead in their spammy tracks
On August 29 2011 01:41 Doodsmack wrote: I think the people claiming APM is a useful stat are either a) criticizing Blizzard for the sake of criticizing Blizzard or b) focusing on a superficial stat when actual gameplay results would be more useful. You claim you need spam apm to keep track of your progress, when in fact it's much easier and clearer to keep track of progress by looking at what actually happens in your games. Are you keeping up on upgrades, keeping your money low, doing what you need to do with your army on the map, etc? You don't need a number to answer those questions for you. If I had to guess I'd say you just want a big APM number because you think it's cool/makes you look good.
Who even shares it with anyone or thinks it's cool? This is like the biggest misconception from all the new people enterting the site. The people who make a big deal out of APM are the ones complaining 'It doesn't matter!!!' all the time. We obviously want the stat, that's why the concept MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Now Blizzard isn't content with not even making it match a minute (not a big deal but why not just fucking fix it? it literally is not per minute.) now they want to change what counts as an action. Anything is an action spam or not. If you want eAPM feature make it. But this is not an eAPM feature because it's actually removing real actions.
I just check out my APM after every game to see if i'm keeping up to a reasonable speed. If it's low then i try and work on it, gameplay results are directly connected to my ability to multitask. Why does this have to be changed? It's fucking stupid. For example if i have CC and scout SCV hotkeyed at the start of the game, why would it not be a valid 'action' to view the scout then go back to view CC? Blizzard are just redefining the term completely to the point where the statistic is no longer reliable. If it doesn't show my hotkey switching then it's not representative of my true APM and now i would never be able to tell if i'm improving on that.
How about Blizzard just leaves shit that nobody complained about alone. NOBODY had an issue with this. Everyone is still going to rotate through groups anyway. It's like blizzard wants us all to play like the left side:
I just don't buy the argument that apm count alone is a reliable way of measuring skill progress. When viewing eng-game average apm there's no way for you to distinguish spam from the valid actions of actually checking production with your tapping etc. You could see an increase in APM merely as a result of spam that was for the purpose of keeping your hands warm, but that number isn't necessarily representative of substantive multitasking achieved during the game. Again, observing actual gameplay results is more fruitful and you can still spam all you want to keep your hands warm.
Personally I'm happy with the change as I will be able to measure progress in valid apm, especially in the late game.
For all the people arguing that APM should show all actions per minute because that's what it's called, that ship has already sailed due to the fact that 1 blizz minute =/= 1 real time minute. The APM counter never gave an accurate representation of "actions per minute" in the first place.
On August 29 2011 03:00 StefooL wrote: "you have 2 and 4 bound to drones
[...]
Before the patch: 245245245 = 9 actions (1 for each selection made)"
Maybe there is a little mistake here. You don't actually have APM if you spam 2 and 4 (without any action between each) and if these groups have the SAME units in it. It equals to do nothing, and i made the test to check. At the moment it's 6 actions that are counted, and it will be only 1.
Would I be wrong ?
If 2 and 4 are bound to the same drone, then you're right. If they're bound to separate drones, then they count as separate actions. When I wrote that, I assumed they were separate drones (naturally, since that is my opening hotkey setup and left-hand spam).
Thanks a lot for the response. I've been trolled all the day by people arguing that it gives APM too (with the same unit(s) in the groups), so it is much much much appreciated. Although, I think it would be useful to add this precision in the original post.
PS : you mean that you make 2 separate drone groups at the beginning to have high APM ?
This really means nothing. Blizzard is counting APM wrong anyways, so who cares if they change a system which is flawed to begin with? If you wish to see your true APM, download sc2gears.
On August 29 2011 01:41 Doodsmack wrote: I think the people claiming APM is a useful stat are either a) criticizing Blizzard for the sake of criticizing Blizzard or b) focusing on a superficial stat when actual gameplay results would be more useful. You claim you need spam apm to keep track of your progress, when in fact it's much easier and clearer to keep track of progress by looking at what actually happens in your games. Are you keeping up on upgrades, keeping your money low, doing what you need to do with your army on the map, etc? You don't need a number to answer those questions for you. If I had to guess I'd say you just want a big APM number because you think it's cool/makes you look good.
Who even shares it with anyone or thinks it's cool? This is like the biggest misconception from all the new people enterting the site. The people who make a big deal out of APM are the ones complaining 'It doesn't matter!!!' all the time. We obviously want the stat, that's why the concept MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Now Blizzard isn't content with not even making it match a minute (not a big deal but why not just fucking fix it? it literally is not per minute.) now they want to change what counts as an action. Anything is an action spam or not. If you want eAPM feature make it. But this is not an eAPM feature because it's actually removing real actions.
I just check out my APM after every game to see if i'm keeping up to a reasonable speed. If it's low then i try and work on it, gameplay results are directly connected to my ability to multitask. Why does this have to be changed? It's fucking stupid. For example if i have CC and scout SCV hotkeyed at the start of the game, why would it not be a valid 'action' to view the scout then go back to view CC? Blizzard are just redefining the term completely to the point where the statistic is no longer reliable. If it doesn't show my hotkey switching then it's not representative of my true APM and now i would never be able to tell if i'm improving on that.
How about Blizzard just leaves shit that nobody complained about alone. NOBODY had an issue with this. Everyone is still going to rotate through groups anyway. It's like blizzard wants us all to play like the left side:
Okay, so your scouting SCV and your command centre are separate actions: what relevance does that have for your analysis of the game? "Oh look, I checked my scouting scv at 150apm this game, and only at 80 this game, I need to check it more!" - your point for reverting the apm changes is pointless, because you wouldn't need to "improve on that". "Keeping up at a reasonable speed" will be measurable with the new apm counter, better in fact that it would be in the previous patch. Instead of your 400apm spamming at the start giving you a good average apm, the fact that you had 20apm of watching a fight while watching your demise and doing nothing about it will not be evident, and your post replay analysis of "my apm was high, so I played really well" will be false.
On August 29 2011 01:41 Doodsmack wrote: I think the people claiming APM is a useful stat are either a) criticizing Blizzard for the sake of criticizing Blizzard or b) focusing on a superficial stat when actual gameplay results would be more useful. You claim you need spam apm to keep track of your progress, when in fact it's much easier and clearer to keep track of progress by looking at what actually happens in your games. Are you keeping up on upgrades, keeping your money low, doing what you need to do with your army on the map, etc? You don't need a number to answer those questions for you. If I had to guess I'd say you just want a big APM number because you think it's cool/makes you look good.
Who even shares it with anyone or thinks it's cool? This is like the biggest misconception from all the new people enterting the site. The people who make a big deal out of APM are the ones complaining 'It doesn't matter!!!' all the time. We obviously want the stat, that's why the concept MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Now Blizzard isn't content with not even making it match a minute (not a big deal but why not just fucking fix it? it literally is not per minute.) now they want to change what counts as an action. Anything is an action spam or not. If you want eAPM feature make it. But this is not an eAPM feature because it's actually removing real actions.
I just check out my APM after every game to see if i'm keeping up to a reasonable speed. If it's low then i try and work on it, gameplay results are directly connected to my ability to multitask. Why does this have to be changed? It's fucking stupid. For example if i have CC and scout SCV hotkeyed at the start of the game, why would it not be a valid 'action' to view the scout then go back to view CC? Blizzard are just redefining the term completely to the point where the statistic is no longer reliable. If it doesn't show my hotkey switching then it's not representative of my true APM and now i would never be able to tell if i'm improving on that.
How about Blizzard just leaves shit that nobody complained about alone. NOBODY had an issue with this. Everyone is still going to rotate through groups anyway. It's like blizzard wants us all to play like the left side:
Okay, so your scouting SCV and your command centre are separate actions: what relevance does that have for your analysis of the game? "Oh look, I checked my scouting scv at 150apm this game, and only at 80 this game, I need to check it more!" - your point for reverting the apm changes is pointless, because you wouldn't need to "improve on that". "Keeping up at a reasonable speed" will be measurable with the new apm counter, better in fact that it would be in the previous patch. Instead of your 400apm spamming at the start giving you a good average apm, the fact that you had 20apm of watching a fight while watching your demise and doing nothing about it will not be evident, and your post replay analysis of "my apm was high, so I played really well" will be false.
Who cares if someone wants to lie to themselves about APM? You can check your APM at any point in the game and you're taking what he said a out of context. I'm preeeetty sure he wasn't saying that his scouting APM is the most important stat he's looking at. He was just giving an example of actions that are being removed that many of us would like to have access to.
i never really understood what the fuss is about. all i care is winning and a fair competitive environment.
apm is weakly correlated to skill. same way iq is weakly related towards ability to do tasks. whatever. at the end of the day winning is the true measure of skill.
Don't really care. I'll sometimes check a replay to see my APM by the end of it if I felt like I was playing fast or slow by comparison to normal, but I don't spam my control groups anyway so this doesn't even affect me.
On August 29 2011 03:11 Probe1 wrote: Klyberess that was brilliant.
Other than that I'm glad to hear Blizzard is at work on important things like clan supportnope, finally protecting map makershaha as advertised before release and stopping apm spammers dead in their spammy tracks
Posts like this are the worst. Do you really think it's the same team doing all of those things? with a company the size of blizzard it's really rare for them to do something like changing apm calculation instead of something else
I really don't care about APM, and I have never heard one non-troll say APM is important. Don't have the slightest clue what prompted them to change the system.
Shouldn't people be able to feel when they are really sluggish or on top of everything?
This is a terrible change. No longer will non-Starcraft players be impressed by your high apm. Instead you will have to grudgingly tell them of your "massive" 50 SAPBM (some actions per blizzard minute, some guy above posted it). Every button press, every mouse click, every tap should be counted for APM. Selecting units and structures multiple times IS considered separate actions, since you have the ABILITY to do something with the unit each time you select it (even if you do nothing and select another unit instead).
I think a part of the reason they have been trying to "fix" the apm (second time now I believe) is because their estimate of your skill is based on in game info (similar to the info that sc2gears provides) apm included so by "fixing" the apm bug's they will be able to more accurately place certain players.
Just to be clear this is based on 0 information at all and is just speculation but it would make some amount of sense, it would also help to explain why 1 guy goes 5-0 in placement and gets diamond while others do the same and get gold/platinum (I 5-0'd on my second account as zerg by 6 pooling and got gold) just a thought..
On September 12 2011 08:31 Grijzeham wrote: I think a part of the reason they have been trying to "fix" the apm (second time now I believe) is because their estimate of your skill is based on in game info (similar to the info that sc2gears provides) apm included so by "fixing" the apm bug's they will be able to more accurately place certain players.
Just to be clear this is based on 0 information at all and is just speculation but it would make some amount of sense, it would also help to explain why 1 guy goes 5-0 in placement and gets diamond while others do the same and get gold/platinum (I 5-0'd on my second account as zerg by 6 pooling and got gold) just a thought..
as someone who never spammed or cared about spamming im loving these changes. so often was my apm made fun of but now with every patch everyone's apm is getting ironically closer to mine. so i guess i wasn't so slow afterall
On September 12 2011 07:43 gillon wrote: As long as sc2gears keeps an accurate value, I couldn't care less. Blizzard APM has been messed up from the start, now it's not even APM anymore, lol.
exactly my thoughts. The APM tab has been messed up from the start. I cant actually believe Blizzard hasnt done anything about the ingame timer, its so strange for an "esport game" to have such an apparent and easy to fix flaw. It makes this change look like they are trolling us. From the start my theory was that there is this one guy at blizzard who no one wants to work with and who has to do all the non balance, bnet 2.0 related changes. And this guy is projecting all his hatred of the world on us.
On August 29 2011 03:11 Probe1 wrote: Klyberess that was brilliant.
Other than that I'm glad to hear Blizzard is at work on important things like clan supportnope, finally protecting map makershaha as advertised before release and stopping apm spammers dead in their spammy tracks
QFT
Why do they work on things that noone really cares about?
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
that's impossible due to how the game was made. if that was the case, every timing in the game would have a decimal as it just wasnt calculated to be 60secs per min in faster mode.
Multiple by like what, x1.3 or divide by .7 (not sure which), and you are done.
lol not that hard. I don't care if something takes 103.67 seconds, you can show it as 104 seconds and it will be fine. Or just make the change for APM so that people stop thinking people in BW were unequivocally faster.
this includes build time for Everything in the game.. from units to upgrades etc, everything will have a decimal on it, you cant hide numbers from players like that. theres a reason why people say that a 0.2 movement speed on a unit is the most imbalanced thing ever etc.
there is no disadvantage in this calculation for apm as everyone is affected, so just dont compare it to BW and theres no difference.
You realize it would be as easy as taking the number that they display and multiplying by 1.4 right? They wouldn't have to rewrite all the code, they compute blizzard apm, multiply by 1.4, and display that instead.
In the long run it's not a big deal, but the thing of it is that when it's that easy you might as well fix it.
dumbest thing is that it regards the middle example(2mmmmmmmm = 9 actions (1 for the selection, 1 for each move issued)) holds the same apm value and it's the worst type of useless spam, tabbing and such has a purpose, clicking move 20x for the same unit does nothing except keep you from doing other more useful things :S
This change just sounds dumb tbh since it just removes certain types of "spam" from the apm count and then in a way empowers other types (with less apm means the remaining spam will be a larger portion of overall apm).
On September 12 2011 09:00 Nayl wrote: I don't even understand why they would change this. It would make APM a completely worthless stat.
not really, APM itself is a worthless stat. Effective APM is what is really important.
People seem to get confused about what AMP tries to measure - Key presses are a means to an end (showing how fast you can play the game) and not the end itself (how fast you can roll you face over the keyboard).
I don't care how fast pros can hit keys only how fast they can do useful actions.
On September 12 2011 08:44 tuho12345 wrote: This change help ppl to believe that Sjow > Merz. Higher APM doesn't mean shit.
Why do so many people say APM doesn't matter? Name me one elite korean player that has a sub 200 APM. APM isn't the end all be all of SC2 but you will NEVER see a player winning GSL with a 100-150 APM.
On September 12 2011 09:00 Nayl wrote: I don't even understand why they would change this. It would make APM a completely worthless stat.
not really, APM itself is a worthless stat. Effective APM is what is really important.
People seem to get confused about what AMP tries to measure - Key presses are a means to an end (showing how fast you can play the game) and not the end itself (how fast you can roll you face over the keyboard).
I don't care how fast pros can hit keys only how fast they can do useful actions.
how is this effective apm? it's just limiting some form of spam, in addition to limiting useful actions at the same time, while making other forms of spam even more pronounced, such as right click spamming. it in no way shows an effective apm. it's all arbitrary. since it's so hard to actually define "effective apm", they might as well keep every action an action and have the community decide on how to view apm.
On September 12 2011 08:44 tuho12345 wrote: This change help ppl to believe that Sjow > Merz. Higher APM doesn't mean shit.
Why do so many people say APM doesn't matter? Name me one elite korean player that has a sub 200 APM. APM isn't the end all be all of SC2 but you will NEVER see a player winning GSL with a 100-150 APM.
I believe FD has ~150 APMs when he versus BoxeR at Blizzcon last year. It does matter a lot, but not spamming and proud of it, 400 APMs like Merz doesn't mean anything. I could spam 500 APMs all game long without building anything right?
In my opinion, this change makes more sense for displaying stats in ESPORTS. Before, showing raw APM actually meant nothing when casters displayed the stats, as all the spam made it impossible to actually gather an accurate conclusion. Now that it's been altered to show effective APM, it becomes possible for casters to switch to the APM tab and say with greater confidence, "Hey, this guy's multitasking is better".
The only downside I see is for kids who like to flex their e-peen by artificially increasing their APM through mass hotkey/click spam and showing off to their friends how "gosu" they are with their 200+ APM.
What people seem to be ignoring is that cycling your hotkeys to monitor production is important, effective APM.
Sure, you could macro perfectly by only selecting a building when you're going to a build a unit out of it. It is technically possible. It is, however, not realistic, and not nearly as effective as constantly cycling your hotkeys.
This is why someone with high APM will oftentimes have better macro than someone with low apm, even though the recorded APM seems much too high to be useful actions.
Checking on a building to see if you should build a unit there IS A USEFUL ACTION even if you don't build a unit.
On September 12 2011 09:00 Nayl wrote: I don't even understand why they would change this. It would make APM a completely worthless stat.
not really, APM itself is a worthless stat. Effective APM is what is really important.
People seem to get confused about what AMP tries to measure - Key presses are a means to an end (showing how fast you can play the game) and not the end itself (how fast you can roll you face over the keyboard).
I don't care how fast pros can hit keys only how fast they can do useful actions.
Tabbing is effective APM. It's what's seperating pros from a normal master/gm players. They make their next upgrade/production cycle right after one another because they have higher apm.
I do care how fast a pro plays. If someone has an inflated apm, you can easily tell this through their game play; where as players like Losira/MMA you can clearly see that most of their apm are being put to good use.
Whoever "invented" the APM measurement: I hate you.
People shouldn't be obsessed with it, it's completely worthless. Some need higher apm, spamming more through cycles to remember / keep track on it and be always in their zone, others don't.
But Sjow / goody are bad examples, because their mechanics are bad. Their apm aren't sufficient to play the game at an efficient rate mechanics wise. And you see that very clearly when you watch their games. But they can currently make up for that because the game isn't as fast paced, and they can compensate with intelligent play / decision making / build orders / game understanding.
pros do whatever they feel is comfortable that allows them to play at their best. if spamming allows them to play at their best, then those actions can actually be seen as effective. i'd like to see you guys play better or at your usual level while spamming 400 apm for 25 minutes.
the blizzard apm stat was already out of real time anyways, like other people said, as long as i still have sc2 gears to show me my actual apm it'll be fine. Still it's a very strange change to make.
i think it is totally unnecessary and not a top priority issue but i'm ok with this change.
useful APM is important. top pros are still going to have 100+ apm anyway and this will hopefully put an end to ridiculous arguments like the one I had to listen the other date in "state of the game" where tyler was saying that SjoW is really slow. He has 100/120 APM which are 100% useful and not spam-related, I would like to see tyler's APM with the next patch lol. In a game where SjoW averaged 120 APM he won off bomber. I doubt tyler can beat bomber atm.
basically, this change is gonna upset only who's obsessed with numbers that mean nothing
On September 12 2011 09:12 jeparie wrote: What people seem to be ignoring is that cycling your hotkeys to monitor production is important, effective APM.
Sure, you could macro perfectly by only selecting a building when you're going to a build a unit out of it. It is technically possible. It is, however, not realistic, and not nearly as effective as constantly cycling your hotkeys.
This is why someone with high APM will oftentimes have better macro than someone with low apm, even though the recorded APM seems much too high to be useful actions.
Checking on a building to see if you should build a unit there IS A USEFUL ACTION even if you don't build a unit.
From my experience in the PTR, I believe you actually do generate APM for cycling through different control groups at a reasonable pace. I noticed in a replay that my APM increased when switching between a nexus and scouting probe, for example. However, the system doesn't add additional APM for spamming a sequence in quick succession (e.g. 123123123123, you'll only get APM for the first 123).
Because, ideally, you should be capable of cycling through production at regular intervals (and not in super-quick succession) in order to keep up your macro, I don't think there's much of an issue here. Granted, this isn't in any way confirmed, rather just my observation when looking at my PTR games.
I think this change is great. Also, I think they should add a feature that remove, let us say, the first 3 minutes of the game, and then display the average APM after that. This will further show the "true" APM and it will be interesting to see which of the pro's that drop from 400 APM to 70. Probably SjoW will turn out to actually be among the highest (non KR) APM'ers after a fix like that.
On September 12 2011 09:12 jeparie wrote: What people seem to be ignoring is that cycling your hotkeys to monitor production is important, effective APM.
Sure, you could macro perfectly by only selecting a building when you're going to a build a unit out of it. It is technically possible. It is, however, not realistic, and not nearly as effective as constantly cycling your hotkeys.
This is why someone with high APM will oftentimes have better macro than someone with low apm, even though the recorded APM seems much too high to be useful actions.
Checking on a building to see if you should build a unit there IS A USEFUL ACTION even if you don't build a unit.
From my experience in the PTR, I believe you actually do generate APM for cycling through different control groups at a reasonable pace. I noticed in a replay that my APM increased when switching between a nexus and scouting probe, for example. However, the system doesn't add additional APM for spamming a sequence in quick succession (e.g. 123123123123, you'll only get APM for the first 123).
Because, ideally, you should be capable of cycling through production at regular intervals (and not in super-quick succession) in order to keep up your macro, I don't think there's much of an issue here. Granted, this isn't in any way confirmed, rather just my observation when looking at my PTR games.
This is incorrect. Unless the delta between selections needs to be greater than 15s (which is what I just tested on the PTR), then there is no timeout that makes later selections "actionful" again.
Considering knowing your APM does nothing for your skill this is such a useless change. It was just a cool little addition. This does not deserve any attention. APM is needed, yes, but it's not important to know it. You want to have as many effective actions as possible.
I don't understand. APM is all of your actions. Actions is any keyboard click or mouse click to interact with the game. Why are they even messing around with this?I feel this is a bad decision on the part of blizzard.
Most worthless change ever that makes no sense. So if I constantly issue move command for my unit, it registers as one command? When in reality, these move commands are actually pretty damn important? Although APM is not an essential skill to have, it just makes ppl with lower APM think it's ok to where they at speedwise because they're only have "a little less" APM compared to pro players.
yea whatever i dont really care like i'll look at my APM in game 85 ok im sure i'll be sad whe n ifirst see it at like 40 lol. But eventually just get over it.
Good change in my opinion. If I'm not mistaken, this will be a more accurate model for EAPM. I think if it is good enough to make a decent estimate at EAPM, we may actually have a reason to check the APM in spectator mode.
It seems that now it will be more like a measurement for effective multitasking.
On September 12 2011 09:47 cHaNg-sTa wrote: Most worthless change ever that makes no sense. So if I constantly issue move command for my unit, it registers as one command? When in reality, these move commands are actually pretty damn important? Although APM is not an essential skill to have, it just makes ppl with lower APM think it's ok to where they at speedwise because they're only have "a little less" APM compared to pro players.
It does not matter as many others have said but they should still leave well enough alone, apm should be actions per minute not all this stuff they are changing it too. Now its like not all you actions in less than a minute.
On September 12 2011 09:12 jeparie wrote: What people seem to be ignoring is that cycling your hotkeys to monitor production is important, effective APM.
Sure, you could macro perfectly by only selecting a building when you're going to a build a unit out of it. It is technically possible. It is, however, not realistic, and not nearly as effective as constantly cycling your hotkeys.
This is why someone with high APM will oftentimes have better macro than someone with low apm, even though the recorded APM seems much too high to be useful actions.
Checking on a building to see if you should build a unit there IS A USEFUL ACTION even if you don't build a unit.
From my experience in the PTR, I believe you actually do generate APM for cycling through different control groups at a reasonable pace. I noticed in a replay that my APM increased when switching between a nexus and scouting probe, for example. However, the system doesn't add additional APM for spamming a sequence in quick succession (e.g. 123123123123, you'll only get APM for the first 123).
Because, ideally, you should be capable of cycling through production at regular intervals (and not in super-quick succession) in order to keep up your macro, I don't think there's much of an issue here. Granted, this isn't in any way confirmed, rather just my observation when looking at my PTR games.
This is incorrect. Unless the delta between selections needs to be greater than 15s (which is what I just tested on the PTR), then there is no timeout that makes later selections "actionful" again.
I have to ask what unit production cycle is 15 seconds or less. Also, were any other actions performed between hotkey cycles? If not, then your testing is unrealistic.
On September 12 2011 09:47 cHaNg-sTa wrote: Most worthless change ever that makes no sense. So if I constantly issue move command for my unit, it registers as one command? When in reality, these move commands are actually pretty damn important? Although APM is not an essential skill to have, it just makes ppl with lower APM think it's ok to where they at speedwise because they're only have "a little less" APM compared to pro players.
On September 12 2011 08:31 Grijzeham wrote: I think a part of the reason they have been trying to "fix" the apm (second time now I believe) is because their estimate of your skill is based on in game info (similar to the info that sc2gears provides) apm included so by "fixing" the apm bug's they will be able to more accurately place certain players.
Just to be clear this is based on 0 information at all and is just speculation but it would make some amount of sense, it would also help to explain why 1 guy goes 5-0 in placement and gets diamond while others do the same and get gold/platinum (I 5-0'd on my second account as zerg by 6 pooling and got gold) just a thought..
I've read that post before I'm aware you're placed into leagues based on mmr, the problem is that mmr is supposed to be a representation of skill, except "skill" pretty damn hard to judge without watching every single game. So theoretically without watching every single game they need a way to automatically work out your "skill" such as by in game information... like maybe... apm?
A. "I have eaten 16 apples, 4 oranges, and 3 bananas, so I have eaten 23 fruits" B. "I have eaten apples, oranges, and bananas, so I have eaten 3 fruits"
Are people still freaking out because Blizzard is choosing B? Who actually cares? People are flaming Blizzard for the sake of flaming Blizzard. Be quiet and discuss something important. The world isn't going to end because Blizzard is undermining the definition of APM that you like the best.
In any case, I think this change is bad because it draws attention to something completely worthless. Whoo.
On September 12 2011 08:31 Grijzeham wrote: I think a part of the reason they have been trying to "fix" the apm (second time now I believe) is because their estimate of your skill is based on in game info (similar to the info that sc2gears provides) apm included so by "fixing" the apm bug's they will be able to more accurately place certain players.
Just to be clear this is based on 0 information at all and is just speculation but it would make some amount of sense, it would also help to explain why 1 guy goes 5-0 in placement and gets diamond while others do the same and get gold/platinum (I 5-0'd on my second account as zerg by 6 pooling and got gold) just a thought..
I've read that post before I'm aware you're placed into leagues based on mmr, the problem is that mmr is supposed to be a representation of skill, except "skill" pretty damn hard to judge without watching every single game. So theoretically without watching every single game they need a way to automatically work out your "skill" such as by in game information... like maybe... apm?
apm has never been considered an accurate measurement of "skill." I hope it would never be considered in the equation for any competitive ladder. In the end it comes down to whether or not you win the game, not who can click faster.
good change. now people will worry less about how high their apm is. I mean I've tried to improve mine over time and it has continually grown but it really doesn't mean I'm better at the game. It's kind of a silly change but I guess they want people to focus less on their APM and more on building skills.
This is a plain stupid change, I mean regardless of what you do u wont reach much more than 100 SAPBM in PTR, I mean while playing like I did before, I had around 220-250APM on a good day. So thank you Blizzard, for making the measurement even more useless.
APM is a thing to ignore if youre Diamond or lower. Im aged 37 and my APM never cracks 50 and yet im a #1 ranked diamond (650 pts) and I may well pop up into Masters soon.
On September 12 2011 09:12 jeparie wrote: What people seem to be ignoring is that cycling your hotkeys to monitor production is important, effective APM.
Sure, you could macro perfectly by only selecting a building when you're going to a build a unit out of it. It is technically possible. It is, however, not realistic, and not nearly as effective as constantly cycling your hotkeys.
This is why someone with high APM will oftentimes have better macro than someone with low apm, even though the recorded APM seems much too high to be useful actions.
Checking on a building to see if you should build a unit there IS A USEFUL ACTION even if you don't build a unit.
From my experience in the PTR, I believe you actually do generate APM for cycling through different control groups at a reasonable pace. I noticed in a replay that my APM increased when switching between a nexus and scouting probe, for example. However, the system doesn't add additional APM for spamming a sequence in quick succession (e.g. 123123123123, you'll only get APM for the first 123).
Because, ideally, you should be capable of cycling through production at regular intervals (and not in super-quick succession) in order to keep up your macro, I don't think there's much of an issue here. Granted, this isn't in any way confirmed, rather just my observation when looking at my PTR games.
This is incorrect. Unless the delta between selections needs to be greater than 15s (which is what I just tested on the PTR), then there is no timeout that makes later selections "actionful" again.
I have to ask what unit production cycle is 15 seconds or less. Also, were any other actions performed between hotkey cycles? If not, then your testing is unrealistic.
Oh, I thought you were claiming that the system tried to detect spam (repeated selections) vs. not spam (selections spaced out). Sorry about that. The only thing you got wrong with your post, then, is that '123' generates 3 actions. That string will only generate 1 action for the initial selection.
Also, such tapping does not dominate your APM in the first place, which is part of your argument, but worthwhile to point out explicitly. This specific change makes it so korean-style tapping spam doesn't influence the APM meter. Because virtually everyone does it, average APM across the board will be significantly lower.
I think you guys are all interpreting this wrong... By repeated selections they mean pressing 3 multiple times in a row counts as 1 action or pressing and holding 3 counts as only 1 action as opposed to duplicating it... Cycling through unique control groups should still count as unique actions.
On September 12 2011 13:23 Incanus wrote: I think you guys are all interpreting this wrong... By repeated selections they mean pressing 3 multiple times in a row counts as 1 action or pressing and holding 3 counts as only 1 action as opposed to duplicating it... Cycling through unique control groups should still count as unique actions.
Nope. Cycling through unique control groups = 1 action.
On September 12 2011 08:31 Grijzeham wrote: I think a part of the reason they have been trying to "fix" the apm (second time now I believe) is because their estimate of your skill is based on in game info (similar to the info that sc2gears provides) apm included so by "fixing" the apm bug's they will be able to more accurately place certain players.
Just to be clear this is based on 0 information at all and is just speculation but it would make some amount of sense, it would also help to explain why 1 guy goes 5-0 in placement and gets diamond while others do the same and get gold/platinum (I 5-0'd on my second account as zerg by 6 pooling and got gold) just a thought..
I've read that post before I'm aware you're placed into leagues based on mmr, the problem is that mmr is supposed to be a representation of skill, except "skill" pretty damn hard to judge without watching every single game. So theoretically without watching every single game they need a way to automatically work out your "skill" such as by in game information... like maybe... apm?
apm has never been considered an accurate measurement of "skill." I hope it would never be considered in the equation for any competitive ladder. In the end it comes down to whether or not you win the game, not who can click faster.
Definitely apm is not a good representation of skill, but then again it's blizzard I wouldn't put it past them.
On September 12 2011 08:31 Grijzeham wrote: I think a part of the reason they have been trying to "fix" the apm (second time now I believe) is because their estimate of your skill is based on in game info (similar to the info that sc2gears provides) apm included so by "fixing" the apm bug's they will be able to more accurately place certain players.
Just to be clear this is based on 0 information at all and is just speculation but it would make some amount of sense, it would also help to explain why 1 guy goes 5-0 in placement and gets diamond while others do the same and get gold/platinum (I 5-0'd on my second account as zerg by 6 pooling and got gold) just a thought..
I've read that post before I'm aware you're placed into leagues based on mmr, the problem is that mmr is supposed to be a representation of skill, except "skill" pretty damn hard to judge without watching every single game. So theoretically without watching every single game they need a way to automatically work out your "skill" such as by in game information... like maybe... apm?
apm has never been considered an accurate measurement of "skill." I hope it would never be considered in the equation for any competitive ladder. In the end it comes down to whether or not you win the game, not who can click faster.
Definitely apm is not a good representation of skill, but then again it's blizzard I wouldn't put it past them.
It's not however changing from apm to some retarded crap that doesn't make sense isn't any good either. Measure proper apm in real time seconds and with all actions pls. Eapm/ useful apm is even worse than spam, it makes people think you need more of that to be good, when in the end the only thing that matters is if and how you win a game, not how fast you played it.
this isnt going to show eAPM like everyone is saying, it directly ignores cycling which is a significant percentage of ones actions, whether they are spamming or not. no, this change isnt going to change gameplay in any way, but its making a useful statistic worthless. apm isnt an end all be all stat, but it can show a player when his mechanics and such are improving. the blizzard minute thing was annoying, but everyone was on the same page and simple math could give you an idea of your true apm. this essentially makes the stat worthless and players will have to go to 3rd party software to get an idea.
most importantly, the tastosis jokes about headset colors at the start of gsl games will die a swift death as no player will really be able to hit a high apm at the start of games
On September 12 2011 20:19 j0ker wrote: this isnt going to show eAPM like everyone is saying, it directly ignores cycling which is a significant percentage of ones actions, whether they are spamming or not. no, this change isnt going to change gameplay in any way, but its making a useful statistic worthless. apm isnt an end all be all stat, but it can show a player when his mechanics and such are improving. the blizzard minute thing was annoying, but everyone was on the same page and simple math could give you an idea of your true apm. this essentially makes the stat worthless and players will have to go to 3rd party software to get an idea.
most importantly, the tastosis jokes about headset colors at the start of gsl games will die a swift death as no player will really be able to hit a high apm at the start of games
So WHAT ? Seriously, i don't understand how it's "usefull" in any way. And no i don't have low apm. Actually i'm averaging 180 according to sc2 gears which means it's 3 actions per second. Jesus do you really need more in order to perform well ? What blizz did about this was the RIGHT move by far. I just don't get why you'd want to count your early apm since it's most of the time spamming and warmup ? Hell even some players do this retarded 123 spam throughout the entire game. Don't tell me you need that to "check" ur building or upgrades or whatever. You can perfectly do that without spamming. You're just used to it because of this apm myth that started since sc/bw.
A lot of ppl got this apm thoughts extremely wrong. Blizz is just giving you a service by showing your true apm (there i said it. that's your true apm really).
Anyway who cares seriously ? It's not like it will stop you to do your warmup. Cauz if it does then i'm sorry but you got this apm completely wrong.
Argh. I'm so fed up of this neverending apm debate.
On September 12 2011 20:19 j0ker wrote: this isnt going to show eAPM like everyone is saying, it directly ignores cycling which is a significant percentage of ones actions, whether they are spamming or not. no, this change isnt going to change gameplay in any way, but its making a useful statistic worthless. apm isnt an end all be all stat, but it can show a player when his mechanics and such are improving. the blizzard minute thing was annoying, but everyone was on the same page and simple math could give you an idea of your true apm. this essentially makes the stat worthless and players will have to go to 3rd party software to get an idea.
most importantly, the tastosis jokes about headset colors at the start of gsl games will die a swift death as no player will really be able to hit a high apm at the start of games
So WHAT ? Seriously, i don't understand how it's "usefull" in any way. And no i don't have low apm. Actually i'm averaging 180 according to sc2 gears which means it's 3 actions per second. Jesus do you really need more in order to perform well ? What blizz did about this was the RIGHT move by far. I just don't get why you'd want to count your early apm since it's most of the time spamming and warmup ? Hell even some players do this retarded 123 spam throughout the entire game. Don't tell me you need that to "check" ur building or upgrades or whatever. You can perfectly do that without spamming. You're just used to it because of this apm myth that started since sc/bw.
A lot of ppl got this apm thoughts extremely wrong. Blizz is just giving you a service by showing your true apm (there i said it. that's your true apm really).
Anyway who cares seriously ? It's not like it will stop you to do your warmup. Cauz if it does then i'm sorry but you got this apm completely wrong.
Argh. I'm so fed up of this neverending apm debate.
Cheers
APM stands for "Action per Minute".
With this change, SC2APM will measure "Some actions per 44 seconds"
This change is stupid, if you wanna measure eAPM or this weird shit of SC2 then name it something else, but this isn't APM. Period.
On September 12 2011 20:19 j0ker wrote: this isnt going to show eAPM like everyone is saying, it directly ignores cycling which is a significant percentage of ones actions, whether they are spamming or not. no, this change isnt going to change gameplay in any way, but its making a useful statistic worthless. apm isnt an end all be all stat, but it can show a player when his mechanics and such are improving. the blizzard minute thing was annoying, but everyone was on the same page and simple math could give you an idea of your true apm. this essentially makes the stat worthless and players will have to go to 3rd party software to get an idea.
most importantly, the tastosis jokes about headset colors at the start of gsl games will die a swift death as no player will really be able to hit a high apm at the start of games
So WHAT ? Seriously, i don't understand how it's "usefull" in any way. And no i don't have low apm. Actually i'm averaging 180 according to sc2 gears which means it's 3 actions per second. Jesus do you really need more in order to perform well ? What blizz did about this was the RIGHT move by far. I just don't get why you'd want to count your early apm since it's most of the time spamming and warmup ? Hell even some players do this retarded 123 spam throughout the entire game. Don't tell me you need that to "check" ur building or upgrades or whatever. You can perfectly do that without spamming. You're just used to it because of this apm myth that started since sc/bw.
A lot of ppl got this apm thoughts extremely wrong. Blizz is just giving you a service by showing your true apm (there i said it. that's your true apm really).
Anyway who cares seriously ? It's not like it will stop you to do your warmup. Cauz if it does then i'm sorry but you got this apm completely wrong.
Argh. I'm so fed up of this neverending apm debate.
Cheers
APM stands for "Action per Minute".
With this change, SC2APM will measure "Some actions per 44 seconds"
This change is stupid, if you wanna measure eAPM or this weird shit of SC2 then name it something else, but this isn't APM. Period.
By your definition APM should really be named APsc2M since it's not actually measuring actions per real minute.
I think this change is great. When they are ignoring the repetetive actions we will see a larger difference between the casual gamers and the pros.
it was never apm anyway. It was apim, actions per ingame minute. But people don't wanna use external apm meters since the igname apm are so much higher. (thats why people complain that their numbers will be reduced now , since people that want to know their apm don't use the ingame apm)
APM has had the same meaning for over eight years and now blizzard wants to change that for some unknown reason. Hope someone makes a program so I can keep track of my apm even after this stupidity gets implemented.
On September 12 2011 13:26 IntotheNorth wrote: Just blizzard dont want people with slow hands feel too Ashamed of themselves...
I'd rather say they want people with slow brains not to feel too good about themselves. Spamming keys without using your brain is nothing to brag about imho.
I don't really care about APM because it is not a measurement of skill but shouldn't cycling through control groups count as unique actions per minute? I normally cycle through control groups to check on upgrades and go back to my army then to my production buildings, so it's not like I'm APM spamming.
On September 12 2011 21:04 FeyFey wrote: it was never apm anyway. It was apim, actions per ingame minute. But people don't wanna use external apm meters since the igname apm are so much higher. (thats why people complain that their numbers will be reduced now , since people that want to know their apm don't use the ingame apm)
It's exactly the other way around, the ingame apm are lower than the real apm....
For the people that think merz and vibe will now have lower apm than sjow and goody: That wont happen, a lot of their apm comes from constantly spamming move commands. If they want to move their army they often dont click once, but spam the position which will still count as different actions. Actually a lot of high apm players do that, it sometimes gives you just a bit more accurate control of your army, just like zerg players' apm peaks when they are controlling mutas.
Btw, you can still spam your rally points at the beginning like people did in wc3 to get apm. This is of course much more useful than cycling through control groups.
On September 12 2011 08:44 tuho12345 wrote: This change help ppl to believe that Sjow > Merz. Higher APM doesn't mean shit.
Why do so many people say APM doesn't matter? Name me one elite korean player that has a sub 200 APM. APM isn't the end all be all of SC2 but you will NEVER see a player winning GSL with a 100-150 APM.
I believe FD has ~150 APMs when he versus BoxeR at Blizzcon last year. It does matter a lot, but not spamming and proud of it, 400 APMs like Merz doesn't mean anything. I could spam 500 APMs all game long without building anything right?
-_- I've never claimed im proud of it. There's more to speed/multitasking than raw APM. It's just how I play. Whoever claims me > sjow is stupid anyways and I've honestly never seen anyone make that claim as of yet. So tired of getting bullshit for my APM when I've never once bragged/claimed it's good. I welcome this patch with open arms, hopefully it'll reduce the amounts of posts like these.
EDIT: Also because you are faster than your opponent doesn't necessarily mean you're better than him. You can be faster than your opponent and still lose, as long as his decision making and game sense is better, speed is not that important (as long as you don't sit around at like 10 apm) When speed really matters is when both players are of equal skill when it comes to decisionmaking/gamesense. Because then you need other variables to seperate them.
On September 12 2011 08:44 tuho12345 wrote: This change help ppl to believe that Sjow > Merz. Higher APM doesn't mean shit.
Why do so many people say APM doesn't matter? Name me one elite korean player that has a sub 200 APM. APM isn't the end all be all of SC2 but you will NEVER see a player winning GSL with a 100-150 APM.
I believe FD has ~150 APMs when he versus BoxeR at Blizzcon last year. It does matter a lot, but not spamming and proud of it, 400 APMs like Merz doesn't mean anything. I could spam 500 APMs all game long without building anything right?
-_- I've never claimed im proud of it. There's more to speed/multitasking than raw APM. It's just how I play. Whoever claims me > sjow is stupid anyways and I've honestly never seen anyone make that claim as of yet. So tired of getting bullshit for my APM when I've never once bragged/claimed it's good. I welcome this patch with open arms, hopefully it'll reduce the amounts of posts like these.
Haha, well you got close to merz > sjow yesterday ^^
pre1.4 i had 200-250 in game apm post1.4 i have 130-170 apm
after watching the replay, i've noticed that the biggest cause of the drop is that in the first 5-8 minutes, you're not really doing anything besides tapping so your apm is pathetic after that initial 'doing nothing' period, your apm reflects pre1.4 apm again (except a tiny bit lower obviously) if they got rid of apm for the first 5 minutes and calculated the average based on everything after, you'd have apm similar to your pre1.4 apm
so basically, this change is fucking stupid and blizzard has no idea on what they're doing for many things
I don't really like it. As I see it, tapping between your production is pretty huge part of being good, and while APM is ofcourse not a be it end all measurement of skill, it does give indications of that high apm player is probably good. Now it's kind of... I can play at like 30% of a superb player and still show like 60-70% of his APM.
Even if spam is like 80% worthless(for most players, some obviously just spam to spam), the 20% mean a damn lot, hence the pros actually do spam.
Actually in the Alicia vs Select game in the GSL, alicia's apm was hovering around 150ish average apm (does spike up to 200+) and Select's apm was constantly above 300 (sometimes up to 500+).
It just shows that you don't need an insanely high apm to play a competent game as many ppl consider Alicia a top tier protoss.
I spam at the beginning to get warmed up and later I spam the unit control groups to be faster at the location (army, base, harrass, etc.) and to check the overall HP of my units. Who the f*** even cares what this number is. As long as it doesnt change my playstyle lol.
Only those kiddies who spam to later watch the replay and party themselves for OVER 9000 APM will be saddend and about them I dont care all that much to be perfectly honest.
On September 21 2011 07:51 crbox wrote: how does this matter anyway? If you care about your apm your probably terrible
It's a benchmark. If you don't abuse it and just cycle hotkeys in down time, it is an actual good measure of playing speed/mutlitasking. If you know your own limits. I was low masters at like 110 apm. I'm now high masters at like... 170 apm prepatch. It's a definite measure, but to be taken with a grain of salt...so to speak.
On September 21 2011 07:55 sechkie wrote: Actually in the Alicia vs Select game in the GSL, alicia's apm was hovering around 150ish average apm (does spike up to 200+) and Select's apm was constantly above 300 (sometimes up to 500+).
It just shows that you don't need an insanely high apm to play a competent game as many ppl consider Alicia a top tier protoss.
I don't think that's the point, it's not like you will play slower if it 'says' your apm is lower.I just think its ridiculous they want to implant this bullshit instead of more important features. I guess it's to please the casuals, when will they please the people who play this game more then twice a week
On September 21 2011 07:55 sechkie wrote: Actually in the Alicia vs Select game in the GSL, alicia's apm was hovering around 150ish average apm (does spike up to 200+) and Select's apm was constantly above 300 (sometimes up to 500+).
It just shows that you don't need an insanely high apm to play a competent game as many ppl consider Alicia a top tier protoss.
I don't think that's the point, it's not like you will play slower if it 'says' your apm is lower.I just think its ridiculous they want to implant this bullshit instead of more important features. I guess it's to please the casuals, when will they please the people who play this game more then twice a week
What I was trying to say is to respond to someone above who was talking about no one below 200 apm or so being a gsl pro. Basically just saying that Alicia who is considered a top tier protoss player can do everything that he needs to effectively, (albeit with trouble defending gosu harrass, but that was mistakes, not lack of apm)
On August 26 2011 22:31 Biggun69 wrote: Spamming, no matter how important or not, should be shown. APM is defined as any actions such as a mouse click or keyboard button press. Removing/ changing the apm is just dumb because it wont show people's real apm.
Why doesn't blizzard just work on balance and making good maps instead of making dumb changes like this? Who honestly complains that the apm bars are bad in sc2?
On September 21 2011 07:55 sechkie wrote: Actually in the Alicia vs Select game in the GSL, alicia's apm was hovering around 150ish average apm (does spike up to 200+) and Select's apm was constantly above 300 (sometimes up to 500+).
It just shows that you don't need an insanely high apm to play a competent game as many ppl consider Alicia a top tier protoss.
I don't think that's the point, it's not like you will play slower if it 'says' your apm is lower.I just think its ridiculous they want to implant this bullshit instead of more important features. I guess it's to please the casuals, when will they please the people who play this game more then twice a week
What I was trying to say is to respond to someone above who was talking about no one below 200 apm or so being a gsl pro. Basically just saying that Alicia who is considered a top tier protoss player can do everything that he needs to effectively, (albeit with trouble defending gosu harrass, but that was mistakes, not lack of apm)
alicia was massively overhyped and i think it's pretty clear from his results (losing to a foreigner 0-2 in code a? get owned by tod in open bracket mlg?) that he is not a "top tier" protoss.
lol i just played a custom and now i have 74 "apm," whereas i had about 200 actions per blizzardminute before. that is really amusing.
On September 21 2011 07:55 sechkie wrote: Actually in the Alicia vs Select game in the GSL, alicia's apm was hovering around 150ish average apm (does spike up to 200+) and Select's apm was constantly above 300 (sometimes up to 500+).
It just shows that you don't need an insanely high apm to play a competent game as many ppl consider Alicia a top tier protoss.
I don't think that's the point, it's not like you will play slower if it 'says' your apm is lower.I just think its ridiculous they want to implant this bullshit instead of more important features. I guess it's to please the casuals, when will they please the people who play this game more then twice a week
What I was trying to say is to respond to someone above who was talking about no one below 200 apm or so being a gsl pro. Basically just saying that Alicia who is considered a top tier protoss player can do everything that he needs to effectively, (albeit with trouble defending gosu harrass, but that was mistakes, not lack of apm)
Erm, while I'm not really bothered by it, I kinda liked seeing my APM gradually increase. Usually in games that I lose I have low APM, which lets me know I'm missing injects, creep spread, not being active enough around the map... without having to actually see each individual mistake.
It will have more objective meaning. Clicking actually takes screen time during which you can't really do anything else. That's why you don't see anyone clicking 50 times to move an SCV. IMO, If someone does the same quality macro/micro with less control group spamming, then it's not illogical to value that more.
For example:
- player A does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 10 cycling through the CCs - player B does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 5 cycling through the CCs - player C does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and she/he doesn't need to cycle around because s/he is simply so well trained to the point that s/he never forgets it without even looking at CCs.
What you get is 3 SCV production every 20 secs, and those are the "Actions" that are measured. How you get there will differ per individual, and I think it's not too absurd to assume, at pro level, if you can do the same/more with less, you're probably a better player. And if you're player C, you may be able to produce marines, marauders, tanks, etc. and better engage in the battle (i.e. more "actions") while player A is busy cycling through CCs to produce SCVs. So if player C does more things while player A cycles around her/his CC, they are counted as "actions" toward the APM.
Basically this new APM measurement doesn't care how you get things done, but it counts the number of things you get done in the same time period. It's definitely more objective way of measuring APM, and it will be much more useful/meaningful than current way of measuring.
On September 21 2011 07:50 iAmJeffReY wrote: Hahaha can't wait to see all these zergs apm drop from 220 to 110. Loving it.
Honestly I don't think Zerg's APM will be affected that much. I'm more curious about Terran v Protoss when it comes to "real" actions because Terran unit production is queuing and Protoss is warping.
On September 21 2011 09:14 DreamChaser wrote: so if i was 80 before im going to guess like 40? WOOT what a total baller im going to test this out im super hyped
Yup. Unlike the previous APM which was nearly meaningless, you can actually suspect your skill is improving as your APM goes up with this new (and more objective) APM. Since it measures how many actions you're achieving in the game. (not how many times you tab your keyboard)
If you click a lot the game will think that you are doing a lot of useful actions when in fact spam clicking is probably one of the most useless spam strategies. I don't know why people are so happy about this, being able to move a scout to going to back to your base to produce units is one of the most important skills to have but it is just considered to be worthless compared to clicking a zergling to move to the same place 80 times
On September 21 2011 09:22 Supert0fu wrote: If you click a lot the game will think that you are doing a lot of useful actions when in fact spam clicking is probably one of the most useless spam strategies. I don't know why people are so happy about this, being able to move a scout to going to back to your base to produce units is one of the most important skills to have but it is just considered to be worthless compared to clicking a zergling to move to the same place 80 times
What you said is exactly why you do not see spam clicking in the games (since it's useless). If there are click spams, they will have meanings. (like when you're trying to deny a zerg expansion with a probe, etc.)
To me it's a horribly stupid change, blizzard did not create the universal term APM so therefore they should not have the ability to change it. But either way it will affect only the smallest proportion of people and will generally be ignored, especially if programs such as sc2gears can calculate it based on the actual definition.
On September 21 2011 08:53 Flonomenalz wrote: Erm, while I'm not really bothered by it, I kinda liked seeing my APM gradually increase. Usually in games that I lose I have low APM, which lets me know I'm missing injects, creep spread, not being active enough around the map... without having to actually see each individual mistake.
But meh, w/e.
What you've mentioned are all counted in the new APM, I believe.
On September 21 2011 09:22 Supert0fu wrote: If you click a lot the game will think that you are doing a lot of useful actions when in fact spam clicking is probably one of the most useless spam strategies. I don't know why people are so happy about this, being able to move a scout to going to back to your base to produce units is one of the most important skills to have but it is just considered to be worthless compared to clicking a zergling to move to the same place 80 times
This is my problem with it. So now a major part of macro, the "tapping" aspect isn't useful APM? Since when is Blizzard the one to judge something like that?
I feel like when someone in Master or GM league has the same APM as someone in silver something is wrong.
Spam clicking is stupid/pointless/useless, whereas hotkey spam actually has some meaning.
Edit: went from 150-160 APM to about 70 now -_- how dare I tap so much I guess.
lol @ the people who whine about the significant drop in their apm.
first off, the change doesn't stop you from what you're best at, tapping.
second,if most of your apm is from tapping, that does tell you that you're not as fast as you think you are.
spam clicking might be useless too, but honestly who cares. just treat apm counter as a tool to help you become better. and stop spamming so much and actually do something useful to keep your apm high.
On September 21 2011 09:22 Supert0fu wrote: If you click a lot the game will think that you are doing a lot of useful actions when in fact spam clicking is probably one of the most useless spam strategies. I don't know why people are so happy about this, being able to move a scout to going to back to your base to produce units is one of the most important skills to have but it is just considered to be worthless compared to clicking a zergling to move to the same place 80 times
This is my problem with it. So now a major part of macro, the "tapping" aspect isn't useful APM? Since when is Blizzard the one to judge something like that?
I feel like when someone in Master or GM league has the same APM as someone in silver something is wrong.
Spam clicking is stupid/pointless/useless, whereas hotkey spam actually has some meaning.
Edit: went from 150-160 APM to about 70 now -_- how dare I tap so much I guess.
Um, you still gain the benefits of tapping, why does it matter so much whether it counts as APM or not? The new way of recording APM may be more useful to determine who does more in the same amount of time on average.
On September 21 2011 10:28 sechkie wrote: someone was interested, so i'll post my own. midmaster protoss prepatch: 120 postpatch: 100ish (smaller sample, so give or take)
I think this is good that I have a small drop? I think?
That's pretty good. Mine went from 150-ish to 100-ish. Protoss here as well. At the beginning of the game it's 70~80 more or less.
Honestly, I would rather have subsequent move commands taken out, or at least taken out as well. I think that is one of the major APM "buffs" for low level players. Certainly there is some micro that it measures, but rarely is multiple MOVE COMMANDS in a row to the same unit a real measure of skill. Now if you throw some stops/holds/attacks in between I'm all for that, but someone selecting a unit and moving it by clicking the destination 5 times or just spamming destinations still gets a pretty inaccurate reading of their APM. While tapping, on the other hand is fairly useful, despite the early game meaningless spamming.
On September 21 2011 07:30 youngminii wrote: pre1.4 i had 200-250 in game apm post1.4 i have 130-170 apm
after watching the replay, i've noticed that the biggest cause of the drop is that in the first 5-8 minutes, you're not really doing anything besides tapping so your apm is pathetic after that initial 'doing nothing' period, your apm reflects pre1.4 apm again (except a tiny bit lower obviously) if they got rid of apm for the first 5 minutes and calculated the average based on everything after, you'd have apm similar to your pre1.4 apm
so basically, this change is fucking stupid and blizzard has no idea on what they're doing for many things
Man speaks truth! The whole point behind spamming pre-midgame is that it helps keep your rhythm up entering the midgame.
Blizzard APM is now a completely worthless number. Before you could look at how fast someone was playing or see if your own hand speed has increased or not. Now it doesn't give me any real information.
On September 21 2011 07:30 youngminii wrote: pre1.4 i had 200-250 in game apm post1.4 i have 130-170 apm
after watching the replay, i've noticed that the biggest cause of the drop is that in the first 5-8 minutes, you're not really doing anything besides tapping so your apm is pathetic after that initial 'doing nothing' period, your apm reflects pre1.4 apm again (except a tiny bit lower obviously) if they got rid of apm for the first 5 minutes and calculated the average based on everything after, you'd have apm similar to your pre1.4 apm
so basically, this change is fucking stupid and blizzard has no idea on what they're doing for many things
Man speaks truth! The whole point behind spamming pre-midgame is that it helps keep your rhythm up entering the midgame.
And is there some magical mechanic that is preventing you from spamming pre-midgame now?
Effective apm is a much better tool to compare players with, as it shows actual useful commands, not spam.
On September 21 2011 07:30 youngminii wrote: pre1.4 i had 200-250 in game apm post1.4 i have 130-170 apm
after watching the replay, i've noticed that the biggest cause of the drop is that in the first 5-8 minutes, you're not really doing anything besides tapping so your apm is pathetic after that initial 'doing nothing' period, your apm reflects pre1.4 apm again (except a tiny bit lower obviously) if they got rid of apm for the first 5 minutes and calculated the average based on everything after, you'd have apm similar to your pre1.4 apm
so basically, this change is fucking stupid and blizzard has no idea on what they're doing for many things
Man speaks truth! The whole point behind spamming pre-midgame is that it helps keep your rhythm up entering the midgame.
And is there some magical mechanic that is preventing you from not spamming pre-midgame now?
Effective apm is a much better tool to compare players with, as it shows actual useful commands, not spam.
Checking buildings to see the time on upgrades/if units need to be built is pretty useful.
I'm not that bothered about the change really. I do think its pointless trying to eliminate "spammy" useless APM from the measurement, because as people have said here you can just replace it with excessive move commands. As always, higher APM could mean that you're better, or that you're better at spamming.
On September 21 2011 18:06 Alpino wrote: Wtf change. Waste your time on something useful blizz.
Don't be a idiot.
This is a positive change... they don't "waste" their time on any changes.
No it's not, it's one of the worst changes made by Blizz. Like it wasn't enough that they haven't given us the real APM in the first place; now they implement that stupid change whose only goal is to tap noobs in the back.
What was the problem with pre 1.4 APM anyway? Have you seen anyone ever complain about apm spammers fe? Merz has 500 APM, did anyone care? Did anyone consider him better than MVP or Bomber who were in the same tournament? Of course not, no one cared. But this change is god awful imo and highly unnecessary. APM should be displayed the way it is, raw clean and untouched.
ONe thing I am wondering: is camera hotkeys use included in APM ? Cause for instance, when i spam with camera hotkeys in the beginning, Sc2 gears often tells me "low apm" which seems to imply that it is not (which i find a bit weird).
I've dropped from 140-160 ingame to 85-105 ingame. What have I learned as a result. Nothing.
If the endeavor is to minimise the recording of 'ineffective' actions then they've failed. New eAPM is still susceptible to spamming, Taking 2 random control groups of units and constantly move commanding them in between 'effective' actions. would raise APM substantially, especially if done quickly. Further conditions need to be added to avoid situations such as this, but now we're essentially scrapping the barrel for actions which are incapable of manipulation.
An measure of all actions would allow the observer to be able to analyse and determine their worth. The arbitrary discrimination does little to help in my opinion.
P.s. Most of this probably stems from an inexplicable loss of nerd-ego as a result of this change.
On September 21 2011 18:06 Alpino wrote: Wtf change. Waste your time on something useful blizz.
Don't be a idiot.
This is a positive change... they don't "waste" their time on any changes.
not really this was along with the change where you can't see any losses anymore the most stupid change. When I want to check my apm I actually want to see my _action_per_minute_ not the "useful" actions per minute.
everybody knows that the logic "more apm == better player" is not really true, so I don't see a point in changing something that worked prepatch
Just remove the APM then, how do you still know if your APM are useful or not? One can still be terrible with this system, just by spamming move commands around, the best players will still spam a lot not just because they like to be cool having ton of APM (now not counted anymore) but because this spamming helps them checking things out faster, having better multitasking and warming their hands. The low league players do not spam and have less APM generally, lowering the APM of all the players by removing "spam" actions doesn't help these players in any way, on the contrary, focusing on a better management and faster play will improve their gameplay, stepping out of lower leagues implies acquiring better mechanics and micro, then strategy kicks in, APM is a direct measurement of having a better macro, multitask and micro, despite you not having to spam all the game long. And also, considering that the 2 parameters for APM are essentially broken: Actions: not true, Blizz removed many actions that should have been counted, spam or not, these are actions. Minute: SC2 time is different than real time So APM ingame are actually totally broken and not reliable, so i'm not ever going to look at them anymore ingame, i will use sc2gears for it, it's so much helpful in that regard and analyzing your playstyle and what to improve.
What was the problem with pre 1.4 APM anyway? Have you seen anyone ever complain about apm spammers fe? Merz has 500 APM, did anyone care? Did anyone consider him better than MVP or Bomber who were in the same tournament? Of course not, no one cared. But this change is god awful imo and highly unnecessary. APM should be displayed the way it is, raw clean and untouched.
If no one cares about high APM why is there a 27 page thread with many people complaining about their now lower APM?
What was the problem with pre 1.4 APM anyway? Have you seen anyone ever complain about apm spammers fe? Merz has 500 APM, did anyone care? Did anyone consider him better than MVP or Bomber who were in the same tournament? Of course not, no one cared. But this change is god awful imo and highly unnecessary. APM should be displayed the way it is, raw clean and untouched.
If no one cares about high APM why is there a 27 page thread with many people complaining about their now lower APM?
Because it's a non issue that does nothing but make calculating APM more annoying. There is literally no reason for it to be changed.
What was the problem with pre 1.4 APM anyway? Have you seen anyone ever complain about apm spammers fe? Merz has 500 APM, did anyone care? Did anyone consider him better than MVP or Bomber who were in the same tournament? Of course not, no one cared. But this change is god awful imo and highly unnecessary. APM should be displayed the way it is, raw clean and untouched.
If no one cares about high APM why is there a 27 page thread with many people complaining about their now lower APM?
Because it's a non issue that does nothing but make calculating APM more annoying. There is literally no reason for it to be changed.
Oh there are plenty of reasons. Perhaps now you get a more consistent idea while watching a replay. I never have the higher APM in the beginning of the game but usually have a higher average by the end. The numbers are not useful for comparison this way.
that make no sense at all but who cares how apm is counted i guess the spammers that think they are so gosu will get down to reality but other then that ? i dont think it changes anything tbh
Why is APM so important anyway? viewing it seriously, i think it is only a hinderance to the sport. It puts pressure on noobies to play faster and harder, and people start measuring skill by how fast your fingers move?
Starcraft 2 is not a game of mechanics (as much as BW was), it is a game of outsmarting your opponent and making good plays, so stop worrying about AMP and enjoy the game!
On September 21 2011 20:35 firehand101 wrote: Why is APM so important anyway? viewing it seriously, i think it is only a hinderance to the sport. It puts pressure on noobies to play faster and harder, and people start measuring skill by how fast your fingers move?
Starcraft 2 is not a game of mechanics (as much as BW was), it is a game of outsmarting your opponent and making good plays, so stop worrying about AMP and enjoy the game!
No matter how much you want it not to be, Starcraft is a game of mechanics more than outsmarting your opponent
If spam move commands on very close locations to each other are still going to count, this is an amazingly stupid change. At least hotkey checking (121234561221131 kinda thing) can actually be for real actions, checking for anything fishy and checking for information such as how close an upgrade is to completion. If this new APM was made to filter out close move commands but not more distant ones, it would be a more reliable indicator of a player's multitasking ability. As an example, I see zergs with 145+ APM (SCII, prior to 1,4) who have a lot of spare larva, don't always keep the minerals as low as they could and clearly make about 6-8 move commands for most of the times when they could simply click once. Clearly, their multitasking ability is not so good, their task prioritising is poor and yet the move spam artificially jacks up their APM. Blizzard, please fix this so that there is actually a good point to your change.
I really, really don't understand why this change was needed. An utter complete waste of time. I really do wish Blizzard would spend more time balancing and less time changing something that ultimately doesn't matter whatsoever.
^ If spam actions are removed (INCLUDING the mass move commands), the SCII APM will effectively become EAPM, which gives a close numeric representation of how many valid, real (actually executed, rather than repeated commands) actions were performed. It doesn't show the quality of the decisions, but it does more accurately display comparisons in people's mechanics.
This is the worth update in 1.4 patch. The APM only interest poeple who are looking at it. I personaly enjoy looking at my replay and looking at my high apm well diserve cause i spamed like hell. What's the problem?
i dont think its worth getting super excited about, most people will probably just adjust to the slightly lower figures and then wont notice it anymore. ill probably still have the odd moment when watching a replay when im confused why my apm is lower than usual though :/
Why didnt they change the name? Why is it still called APM when it isnt?
I dont really mind the change too much, but it was always fun to see the APM of different players. Just played a 10min game where i had APM of 70. Then played a 20min game where it was 120 : / It's really weird now. (before it was just 150 all game).
I think they might've changed it so that lower level players arent gonna be so obsessed with it and/or scared off by many pros having insane APM. Idk, why else would they change it? Anyone got a good reason?
I know many of my lower level friends are obsessed with APM, and many have like 200 APM but are still in gold league.
For me APM pre patch was a fun stat to see how fast you played, kinda cool to see how fast the different pros played.
APM post patch is just confusing and doesnt really mean anything. APM still wont mean anything in terms of skill but it's just confusing now and just not as interesting. Also now we have to rework all the APM numbers, ugh. (what's considered fast/slow etc)
Good lord. Is the hate going on in this thread for real?
People are pooh-poohing APM as an important measure of anything, yet in the same post are vehemently attacking Blizzard for implementing the change. For those actually upset by this change, you are revealing that high APM is important to you and that your ego actually did get crushed because spamming no longer makes you feel cool.
I understand the notion of spamming early to keep a rhythm going through mid- and late-game or as a way to let off some nerves, but these are personal techniques. They're not meaningful actions in the game and so should not be counted as such. If I issue an attack move, that is meaningful. Is there meaning in, say, tapping my foot nervously during the game? To me, sure. Within the game, no.
As a side note, people are talking about spamming move commands as inflating APM. When you see someone "spamming" move commands, it's not always pointless, i.e. they could be trying to move in a circular motion (more clicks = more accurate circular path).
On September 22 2011 02:12 showbiz wrote: Good lord. Is the hate going on in this thread for real?
People are pooh-poohing APM as an important measure of anything, yet in the same post are vehemently attacking Blizzard for implementing the change. For those actually upset by this change, you are revealing that high APM is important to you and that your ego actually did get crushed because spamming no longer makes you feel cool.
I understand the notion of spamming early to keep a rhythm going through mid- and late-game or as a way to let off some nerves, but these are personal techniques. They're not meaningful actions in the game and so should not be counted as such. If I issue an attack move, that is meaningful. Is there meaning in, say, tapping my foot nervously during the game? To me, sure. Within the game, no.
As a side note, people are talking about spamming move commands as inflating APM. When you see someone "spamming" move commands, it's not always pointless, i.e. they could be trying to move in a circular motion (more clicks = more accurate circular path).
Excellent post.
I spam in all of my games, however I don't spam so i can stroke my ego when I watch the replay and see how high the numbers go, i spam because it warms up my finger for the mid/late game. However I think this change is good because now APM will actually mean something, not just how many times you cycle between your production facilities or drag click your workers.
Those changes are pointless and everyone should care less about them.
Blizzard instead should rename faster game mode into normal, and slower ones just name slow slower slowest etc. And count time as real time. Because everyone plays on faster game mode anyways, and that "faster" mode is actually normal, and why not name it normal if it's normal.
On September 22 2011 02:12 showbiz wrote: Good lord. Is the hate going on in this thread for real?
People are pooh-poohing APM as an important measure of anything, yet in the same post are vehemently attacking Blizzard for implementing the change. For those actually upset by this change, you are revealing that high APM is important to you and that your ego actually did get crushed because spamming no longer makes you feel cool.
I understand the notion of spamming early to keep a rhythm going through mid- and late-game or as a way to let off some nerves, but these are personal techniques. They're not meaningful actions in the game and so should not be counted as such. If I issue an attack move, that is meaningful. Is there meaning in, say, tapping my foot nervously during the game? To me, sure. Within the game, no.
As a side note, people are talking about spamming move commands as inflating APM. When you see someone "spamming" move commands, it's not always pointless, i.e. they could be trying to move in a circular motion (more clicks = more accurate circular path).
Excellent post.
I spam in all of my games, however I don't spam so i can stroke my ego when I watch the replay and see how high the numbers go, i spam because it warms up my finger for the mid/late game. However I think this change is good because now APM will actually mean something, not just how many times you cycle between your production facilities or drag click your workers.
It still wont mean anything. It's just how many things you do. You could be bronze and have the highest (E)APM in the world and it wouldnt mean anything. A good player will not necessarily have more APM than a bad one. So this patch has not affected the significance of APM at all. Therefore it's a silly change that doesnt make sense.
Nobody is "vehemently" attacking blizzard, or at least i wasnt. I was just saying that the change is quite silly because it doesnt make any sense at all. That's it
Changing between control groups is as much an action as anything.. when you watch MKP play and he splits his gruop of 25 marines into 6 groups and moves one to absorb banelings he is changing control groups and magic boxing like crazy there, and his APM would reflect it.
I find it funny how little Blizzard actually understands the intricate play of their own game, but this is one of those stupid changes that they should have just left alone. What is the point? It seems like something my bronze level rl friends would do, they always get really frustrated when I am tapping early game and tell me how pointless it is and how there is nothing I can do with 160 APM compared to their 40. Late game tapping and moving control groups is an integral part of macro and it should be reflected in someway when watching a player.
Don't even get me started on the ''blizzard'' minute vs real minute argument, it's all so frustrating.
imo if you wanna know how fast someone is playing, its best to watch their view as they play. this displays how fast someone is really playing, and how good there mechanics are.
I always thought looking at my apm would be a good way to determine my skill improvement. This reset of the measuring system is just annoying as I have to figure out where my average level is again, and what I can do to play faster.
On September 22 2011 03:21 zul wrote: "245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored)" this doesn`t make any sense, because you clearly make 9 clicks.
And why should a click be an action? Nothing changed in the game, no meaningful command was given to any structure or unit. By your logic everytime you scroll the mouse and the screen has to move would count as an action too.
It's a great patch and will only affect spammers. Finally we can see the real apm of the people we play.
On September 22 2011 03:21 zul wrote: "245245245 = 1 action (1 for the initial selection made, the rest ignored)" this doesn`t make any sense, because you clearly make 9 clicks.
And why should a click be an action? Nothing changed in the game, no meaningful command was given to any structure or unit. By your logic everytime you scroll the mouse and the screen has to move would count as an action too.
It's a great patch and will only affect spammers. Finally we can see the real apm of the people we play.
Hahaha "spammers" and "real apm". Real apm is not what you will get now if anything.
On September 21 2011 07:51 crbox wrote: how does this matter anyway? If you care about your apm your probably terrible
It's a benchmark. If you don't abuse it and just cycle hotkeys in down time, it is an actual good measure of playing speed/mutlitasking. If you know your own limits. I was low masters at like 110 apm. I'm now high masters at like... 170 apm prepatch. It's a definite measure, but to be taken with a grain of salt...so to speak.
That's the most value I see in it. For BW, a completely new player to the game (in my experience from teaching people) was between 10-15 apm. A non-hotkey using semi-competent newb 40apm, a person consistently using hotkeys- 60apm, but is getting behind in macro and has troubles moving armies. 70-120 macro is getting under control and maneuvers and drops are starting to come together and after that I don't know because my max average apm is only 90, but usually 80. I'm no spammer so I'm not particularly upset, but it is interesting as a very loose benchmark. People make a greater deal of it and it was probably more relevant in BW (no multibase selection) as speed issues almost always translated into macro problems under 100apm (loosely).
What doesn't make sense to me is the only thing accurately represented in APM is the P as in per. Actions is actually not all actions and Minute is not actually a minute. It's more a BCAPBM (Blizzard Counted Actions Per Blizzard Minute)
It's not even effective APM (eAPM), which would be more valuable.
in my opinion there should be the option to display the old and the new apm measurement...apm spam is something that is connected w/ sc...in my opinion the discussion is a part of sc and its community...
I was always wondering why my SC2 apm was as high as my BW apm (and because of sc2 minutes it would have been higher apm) although I felt my gamespeed was faster in BW. Now the 1.4 patch brings the truth ^^ 50 apm lol
Poll: How much has your apm gone down with patch 1.4
>40% (314)
44%
20-30% (121)
17%
<10 % (107)
15%
30-40% (91)
13%
10-20% (83)
12%
716 total votes
Your vote: How much has your apm gone down with patch 1.4
This is a really bad solution, it's like they totally forget that sometimes you just want to check something in the control group without issuing it commands(For instance seeing your SCV building progress) and those are useful actions that now aren't counted.
On September 22 2011 06:13 Shikyo wrote: This is a really bad solution, it's like they totally forget that sometimes you just want to check something in the control group without issuing it commands(For instance seeing your SCV building progress) and those are useful actions that now aren't counted.
I think that depends on how much value you think APM has. I know having high APM is good, but beyond that I am not sure how much it matters. You might lose a game because you have low APM, but not because of the exact #. It won't be like darn if I had just averaged 68 APM instead of 67 I would totally have won that game.
My two cents anyway. I could also be missing something.
On September 22 2011 06:11 grigorin wrote: I was always wondering why my SC2 apm was as high as my BW apm (and because of sc2 minutes it would have been higher apm) although I felt my gamespeed was faster in BW. Now the 1.4 patch brings the truth ^^ 50 apm lol
Poll: How much has your apm gone down with patch 1.4
>40% (314)
44%
20-30% (121)
17%
<10 % (107)
15%
30-40% (91)
13%
10-20% (83)
12%
716 total votes
Your vote: How much has your apm gone down with patch 1.4
Not sure what is so confusing about this issue its quite obvious blizz is trying to turn APM into EAPM.... However, as mentioned before there should be clarification in providing apm and eapm values.
people who really like the change more then likely had slower apm, while the people who are not happy like myself came from a bw back ground and had faster apm and i don't like it edit by the way BW Apm 230 eapm 120 Sc2 before change Apm 170 Sc2 post 1.4 90-100
On September 22 2011 06:55 HatchetWound wrote: people who really like the change more then likely had slower apm, while the people who are not happy like myself came from a bw back ground and had faster apm and i don't like it edit by the way BW Apm 230 eapm 120 Sc2 before change Apm 170 Sc2 post 1.4 90-100
So your post 1.4 APM is very close to your BW eapm.
Consistency is the most important thing using metrics like APM. 90 and 100 APM mean nothing to someone, it's all relative. It's going to be a pain to compare APM from the past to current APM. Even BW APM. When APM is on a different scale than it used to be it becomes a worthless metric.
For some reason, my APM did not change, it is still around the 100-110 region. Maybe because I use mouse a lot also and not as much hotkeys in the mid-late game.
On September 22 2011 06:55 HatchetWound wrote: people who really like the change more then likely had slower apm, while the people who are not happy like myself came from a bw back ground and had faster apm and i don't like it edit by the way BW Apm 230 eapm 120 Sc2 before change Apm 170 Sc2 post 1.4 90-100
So your post 1.4 APM is very close to your BW eapm.
That shows the patch is working as intended.
Yea, if you factor in how sc2 calculates APM (based on a blizzard minute as opposed to an actual minute), the numbers are basically exactly the same. Soooo....you shouldn't be upset that it's no longer counting spam?
Or that sc2 is finally close to measuring eAPM?
Edit:
On September 22 2011 07:37 BWILLdur wrote: Consistency is the most important thing using metrics like APM. 90 and 100 APM mean nothing to someone, it's all relative. It's going to be a pain to compare APM from the past to current APM. Even BW APM. When APM is on a different scale than it used to be it becomes a worthless metric.
But isn't that what everyone's already saying in this thread? It's already a worthless metric that people like to look at to feel good about how they play. "I won, but i had 350 apm, the guy i beat only had 100, i'm so gosu"
"i can't believe i lost, i was playing twice as fast as him"
APM doesn't matter as long as you aren't clicking things effectively. (Obviously you need some basic level of apm to be able to do anything, but spamming doesn't make someone better or worse)
I like how they count tabbing thru your production buildings as spam but actually spamming mouse clicks with your scv on the same spot over and over counts as real actions. o.o
Since lots of the changes they do to the UI or stats and stuff like that is to help the players to learn something about their gameplay (like the clock, hotkeys on the buttons, don't remember more now hehe)
Maybe they were thinking that now people can realize if they are spamming (Macroing??) too much so if they do then it means that you should focus more on other buttons beside the numbers. (producing, using your mouse, that kind of stuff)
I'm sure someday we will have a blue post about this on battle.net :D.
Most of the time, it's just checking production cycles or switching through different parts of the map, both pretty important parts of the game (macro and scouting/micro).
I don't really understand this change. If anything . . . change apm to real minutes instead of blizzard "faster" minutes.
What a stupid change. People say "well you were just spamming"... and that's not even true, lol, Cycling through buildings is not "Spam" in mid-game if you're cycling checking build times, etc, and even so, repeated button sequences aren't counted either, so it's not just repeated spam presses. Essentially their APM stat means something completely subjective now, and now longer has any use whatsoever, lol.
Does blizzard seriously not realize that pros cycle control groups with a purpose? who cares if a bunch of noobs gets a higher APM....it just gives the newbs a sense of happiness from a high APM even though it means nothing. pointless to me.
On September 22 2011 14:21 SpiritAshura wrote: Does blizzard seriously not realize that pros cycle control groups with a purpose? who cares if a bunch of noobs gets a higher APM....it just gives the newbs a sense of happiness from a high APM even though it means nothing. pointless to me.
Thing is, cycling through helps you macro, and thus do effective actions, meaning that cycling still raises your "APM", just not as much as it did before. But relativity to other players is what matters.
This is really only the blizzard way of measuring APM.. I Use a program called SC2 Gears that measures real time apm.( I think so anyways.. I normally find that my Average APM in-game and on SC2 Gears are different). I really don't see this being a big problem , i think i will help in the long run to determine the APM in sc2 ( compared to Real time and BW).
I went from 250+ to about 100 I guess. I didn't keep track of it too much, but I will have a look into it. When needed current 'apm' is still >280 but I really don't care anyways. I care a lot more about how smooth the game itself works for me.
Do I get out of my game, thrown off easily or do I keep my game, macro and multitasking up.
a weird thing is that now move command clicks count alot compared to all the other actions.
i had a game were i was sitting at 80apm early-mid game and as soon as my mutas came out my apm rushed up to 110-120 because of all the move commands. and i dont like it since micro apm will count alot more than the macro apm.
On September 22 2011 02:27 Uncultured wrote: This didn't change my apm at all. Apparently I don't spam.
Edit: Unless SC2Gears isn't taking this new change into account.
I'm also curious if SC2Gears reflects the "blizzard apm" - esp. post patch. or if it's calculated differently?
Maybe I'll start reading the sc2gears thread.
It calculates it based on real time, and ignores blizzard amendments. So like, pre-patch, my APM was like, 110 according to blizzard, but according to scgears, it was in the range of 140-150
So scgears gives a higher number (and also breaks it down into macro APM & Micro APM &c)
this doesn't make any sense. with that change, it's still called apm but it ISNT'T! (yeah it never was). every klick with the mouse or hit on the keyboard is a fucking action. if u spam, u now your actions are spam, if u don't or only at the start u know it's ur real apm. so why the fuck to they implement shit like this?
for me, the apm-value helped me to see if i improved my mechanics. now i have to us sc2gears or other tools. this is really fucking annoying
On September 22 2011 16:02 budvayne wrote: this doesn't make any sense. with that change, it's still called apm but it ISNT'T! (yeah it never was). every klick with the mouse or hit on the keyboard is a fucking action. if u spam, u now your actions are spam, if u don't or only at the start u know it's ur real apm. so why the fuck to they implement shit like this?
for me, the apm-value helped me to see if i improved my mechanics. now i have to us sc2gears or other tools. this is really fucking annoying
The silly thing about this is a LOT of people will switch between ctrl grps to check their production, now any time you do that it's no longer considered an action, which is completely dumb. I'm down with having a way to not show spam, however this isn't the way because it hurts non-spam apm as well.
I completely agree that 1 click with a mouse/keyboard should = 1 action, whether or not it's spam the player already knows
All these people saying it's nice to see "effective apm" now are completely wrong, while it certainly cuts down on spam, it cuts down on a lot of other actions as well that aren't spam, so this is basically less then effective apm.
I like it. The change isn't perfect, from what it sounds like micro spam still may present an issue. But hopefully it's a step towards showing "Effective" APM vs people who just spam fest to artificially inflate their APM's.
Why would people think this change is bad? Your performance shouldn't be gleaned by a value that can easily be juked by spam clicking a spot a shit ton or incessantly tapping keys in the first 5 minutes of a game.
On September 22 2011 16:16 synkronized wrote: Why would people think this change is bad? Your performance shouldn't be gleaned by a value that can easily be juked by spam clicking a spot a shit ton or incessantly tapping keys in the first 5 minutes of a game.
That goes both ways. If "APM" matters so little to people who look at it and say LOL, UR APM MEENS NOTHING, then why bother changing it? And this change isn't even close to creating and eAPM stat, because this change doesnt actually measure effective APM, because a lot of the actions it is filtering, are in fact effective actions; production cycling, for example.
My mind boggles at the amount of people saying their APM has now dropped and are disgusted. You'd think they had actually been physically handicapped in some way. Does anyone strive for a well rounded APM for an impressive number, or for how it helps their personal game? Because everyone is playing as fast as they were before. Why people get so upset over a number I don't know.
On September 22 2011 16:35 IntotheNorth wrote: ok just played a 4v4 30 mins game,
before 1.40 i used to have 180-200 in game apm
aftet 1.40 i only have 130 in game apm - -
yes nerf me more blizzard, LOL
edited: in sc2 gear it show i have 241 apm in that game
so, more than 100 apm was what blizzard considered hotkey spam? rofl
Yes, it looks like you cycle through your buildings a lot.
No one has ever said this is a bad thing to do, blizzard just isn't counting it as separate actions, because you have not done anything with those clicks. Nothing in the state of the game has changed because you selected those buildings / units.
And it's hardly a "nerf to you," since you'll still win just as many games as you did before, it's not like you're suddenly going to stop using the keyboard and make all your clicks only with your mouse.
It's had zero affect on how people play the game, and only an affect on how many people can go, "i'm super gosu, i have 400apm"
Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't it more useful to have a measure of APM that ignores tapping? For the purpose of comparison, I mean.
Say you watch a replay and compare the APM of the players, both of whom are tapping. One or the other is certainly going to be tapping faster - but so what? Does cycling your hotkeys once a second provide a meaningful advantage over cycling them once every second-and-a-half? Because that's all the pre 1.4 APM tab is going to tell you. Now, two separate facts are discernible: first, how much activity is going on around the map, controlling the army, building stuff etc (which I can directly compare to my own number without it being drowned out by how much faster/slower I tap). And second, I can see that a player is tapping. I can see him cycling his hotkeys, and infer that this is a good and useful thing to do.
And let's say say I didn't tap, and started to. Surely what I want to measure is the increase in the rate of meaningful actions I execute as a result of the tapping. I can now do that, safe in the knowledge that if I'm distracting myself with spam, that will show up as a dip in APM.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
The only thing this will be helpful for is for people like merz who abuse the system, and for Vibe as well, since he does jack all with his 500 APM lol and everyone knows it. The thing is is that 'everyone' already knows to ignore the obvious spammers because they are playing shitty despite having 300+ APM.
This. I have been habitually tapping out ~160APM in about a ~30 min game, and now it makes me feel like I'm doing a lot less than I actually am. just cycling between my hotkeys lets me check on the status of upgrades\units being created\energy\unit health\abilities, and blizzard not being able to identify spam from this kind of thing is a bit of a downer. I'm still indifferent and don't care about whether or not it gets re-implemented, but I liked it.
I mean be serious Why is APM an important measure? The answer is simple: How well am i able to control my units, my macro etc.. Actually doing important things while the game progresses. Not boxing drones or circling control-groups at the speed of light 2 mins into the game. Thing is probably the following: Zomg, my epen*s (i know, i know a very importen emeasure) just shrunk by like 10% (20%,40% ;D)
The thing that annoys me the most is that blizzard is trying to force RTS competition down to a more noob casual friendly scale despite what community thinks or wants. APM still doesnt mean jackshit, but the only reason they implemented this change was to make bronze-platinum players feel better about themselves while shitting on professional play and its spectator value. cant they just stick to balance changes and leave APM and sound alerts the way it were? not everything requires 'fixing', you know.
On September 22 2011 23:32 iblink wrote: The thing that annoys me the most is that blizzard is trying to force RTS competition down to a more noob casual friendly scale despite what community thinks or wants. APM still doesnt mean jackshit, but the only reason they implemented this change was to make bronze-platinum players feel better about themselves while shitting on professional play and its spectator value. cant they just stick to balance changes and leave APM and sound alerts the way it were? not everything requires 'fixing', you know.
or maybe they're making the apm tab more useful to pro players while bringing bronze-plat players who senselessly spam 200apm back down to earth.
On September 22 2011 18:03 HardMacro wrote: Came back to the game after a 1-month break and somehow my APM has increased to ~250 in the 20 or so games that I've played, up from ~230 before.
Pretty puzzled, don't feel as if I'm doing anything differently.
Wow that's high, I don't know how you do that without tapping lol :D Mine has dropped significantly from the tapping, from 180-200 to 120-130 as someone above said.
I figured people would not be able to get over 200 with this change, but apparently I'm wrong. So basically you click a lot?
On September 22 2011 23:32 iblink wrote: The thing that annoys me the most is that blizzard is trying to force RTS competition down to a more noob casual friendly scale despite what community thinks or wants. APM still doesnt mean jackshit, but the only reason they implemented this change was to make bronze-platinum players feel better about themselves while shitting on professional play and its spectator value. cant they just stick to balance changes and leave APM and sound alerts the way it were? not everything requires 'fixing', you know.
or maybe they're making the apm tab more useful to pro players while bringing bronze-plat players who senselessly spam 200apm back down to earth.
On September 22 2011 23:32 iblink wrote: The thing that annoys me the most is that blizzard is trying to force RTS competition down to a more noob casual friendly scale despite what community thinks or wants. APM still doesnt mean jackshit, but the only reason they implemented this change was to make bronze-platinum players feel better about themselves while shitting on professional play and its spectator value. cant they just stick to balance changes and leave APM and sound alerts the way it were? not everything requires 'fixing', you know.
Wait , you guys are seriously giving a shit about this change?
What Erandorr said... this doesn't actually matter. what does a number change? I'm not going to suck any less because my APM is now only 200 behind the pros...
On September 22 2011 23:32 iblink wrote: The thing that annoys me the most is that blizzard is trying to force RTS competition down to a more noob casual friendly scale despite what community thinks or wants. APM still doesnt mean jackshit, but the only reason they implemented this change was to make bronze-platinum players feel better about themselves while shitting on professional play and its spectator value. cant they just stick to balance changes and leave APM and sound alerts the way it were? not everything requires 'fixing', you know.
Wait , you guys are seriously giving a shit about this change?
I dont give a shit about how this change affects my games. I do give a shit about the road blizzard has chosen to follow.
I think this was a bad change. APM Spam was something I would always have in the back of my mind to keep my fingers busy and I think it would sometimes even help remind me to do stuff..but now I have less motivation to spam since my apm dropped down to 110-130 range.
I don't really care about the change but is it really possible to call it APM anymore? It's not truly recording actions per minutes now, it's more like "actions per minutes with a modification". (APMWAM)?!
On September 23 2011 00:06 Magulina wrote: I don't really care about the change but is it really possible to call it APM anymore? It's not truly recording actions per minutes now, it's more like "actions per minutes with a modification". (APMWAM)?!
Anyhing you do in the game is an action. Moving the mouse from point A to point B is an action. APM has always been arbitrary. Pre-patch, post-patch, in BW. Even camera movements weren't recorded before the patch afaik, and that is a much more important part of actual player speed than tapping.
On September 23 2011 00:06 Magulina wrote: I don't really care about the change but is it really possible to call it APM anymore? It's not truly recording actions per minutes now, it's more like "actions per minutes with a modification". (APMWAM)?!
How about ATMPM? Actions-that-matter-per-minute. Clicking the mouse, spamming 1-5 at 450 APM is not challenging. I can do that. What IS hard, are actions that make a difference. Your never going to react/come up with things to do that your fingers couldnt handle once your drilled where the keys for those actions are.
Now we know who truly has a high APM. And Id imagine people that were earlier deemed "slow" or low APM players dont look so bad anymore since the inflated APM figures of spammers go down.
to me tapping IS meaningful actions, because I'm cycling between my units/production/scouter/whatever else and checking on things. I'm not hitting my hotkeys cause I want to, or I feel like it makes me cool, I tap through hot keys cause I don't want to miss anything.
I still spam at the start of the game cause I want to keep as steady and high an APM I can, pretty much the exact same way Iplayed BW.
Also, the biggest beef I have with this change is this......The only reason APM even mattered in the first place was to be amazed by how fucking fast Koreans can move dem fingers, and now I can't be amazed by that number anymore. Makes me sad T.T
Affected my overall apm just because my early game apm have gone to an all-time low of 20 lol. My macro apm stays around the same at around 80 since i use camera hotkeys for injects anyway. Majority of my apm is micro component which hits up to 250. Not that i really care about apm, but it actually inflates my ego abit when since i often beat players that have more than double my apm. It gives me an indication that i'm playing the smart way through game understanding etc, and i'm pretty confident of my micro since my mouse accuracy comes from my fps background while the ability to make split-second micro decisions come from years of dota.
On September 22 2011 23:32 iblink wrote: The thing that annoys me the most is that blizzard is trying to force RTS competition down to a more noob casual friendly scale despite what community thinks or wants. APM still doesnt mean jackshit, but the only reason they implemented this change was to make bronze-platinum players feel better about themselves while shitting on professional play and its spectator value. cant they just stick to balance changes and leave APM and sound alerts the way it were? not everything requires 'fixing', you know.
Wait , you guys are seriously giving a shit about this change?
Of course we give a shit. That means Blizzard wants the game to be as casual-friendly as possible. Sure it brings more money, but meh -;-
I think the APM change is causing major lag when using Razer products. I suspect the APM detector in them is now off sync with the new APM. I'm getting crazy robo noises everytime I make an action.
It wouldn't hurt if Blizz actually created 2 APM categories.
1 - Raw APM which measures every action regardless of what it is.
2 - Effective APM which, much like this change tries to do, tries to remove redundant actions from the counter to see what sort of actual pace players are working at.
On September 22 2011 16:16 synkronized wrote: Why would people think this change is bad? Your performance shouldn't be gleaned by a value that can easily be juked by spam clicking a spot a shit ton or incessantly tapping keys in the first 5 minutes of a game.
That goes both ways. If "APM" matters so little to people who look at it and say LOL, UR APM MEENS NOTHING, then why bother changing it? And this change isn't even close to creating and eAPM stat, because this change doesnt actually measure effective APM, because a lot of the actions it is filtering, are in fact effective actions; production cycling, for example.
You must be projecting pretty hard since I never said "APM doesn't matter." I asked why is the change bad. And from what I've seen it's mainly the APM spammers lamenting over the popping of one of their epeen inflation techniques.
In any case it becomes tiresome when APM spammers claim more skill because they inflate their APM during the first 5 minutes. That and regardless of who you are, you do make redundant actions like frantic spam clicking in the middle of a scrum, actions that would benefit from filtration to see what your real APM is to get an idea of how many meaningful actions you make on average.
On September 23 2011 04:08 synkronized wrote: It wouldn't hurt if Blizz actually created 2 APM categories.
1 - Raw APM which measures every action regardless of what it is.
2 - Effective APM which, much like this change tries to do, tries to remove redundant actions from the counter to see what sort of actual pace players are working at.
On September 23 2011 04:08 synkronized wrote: It wouldn't hurt if Blizz actually created 2 APM categories.
1 - Raw APM which measures every action regardless of what it is.
2 - Effective APM which, much like this change tries to do, tries to remove redundant actions from the counter to see what sort of actual pace players are working at.
You forgot that they created "Blizzard" or SC2 APM which is 1.33333 or so times faster than "real time". so essentially there is like total 4 APM categories (sc2APM, sc2EAPM, APM, EAPM)
EDIT: removed random talk, readded part of it, zzz
Seeing the APM numbers does nothing to improve you as a player. No one watching the game cares about it. For you retards out there, I am not saying APM doesnt matter. It obviously matters to some extent. But seeing it on a replay or from a casted game means absolutely nothing. Anyone that is outraged about this change needs to uninstall the game and figure out their purpose in life.
On September 23 2011 04:24 ishyishy wrote: Seeing the APM numbers does nothing to improve you as a player. No one watching the game cares about it. For you retards out there, I am not saying APM doesnt matter. It obviously matters to some extent. But seeing it on a replay or from a casted game means absolutely nothing. Anyone that is outraged about this change needs to uninstall the game and figure out their purpose in life.
Nice post man. It is really awesome...
I always liked seeing my apm because the more I play and practice the more apm I see. I guess apm does not matter as you say, but to see that I am actually improving and playing faster is an awesome stat for me to see. It keeps me motivated to see the effect of practice.
I think it should have been left the way it was... Why change it what was the reasoning? Its really hard for me to tell if im playing faster or not because every game now my apm is the same...
Before, APM told you how fast you were playing, irrespective of how good or bad you were. Now, APM literally tells you NOTHING. I now have the same APM as DDE but I have 10 times worse macro, micro, multitask. I can't even use this statistic, it's a complete joke. Perhaps someone's spam was helping them be better at the game?! Even though people thought apm was useless, on average, the person with higher apm was still winning and no one in the world can convince me that if DRG didn't press 345345345345345345345345345 every single second of the game, he would have injects as good as he does.
I am going to laugh when people say stuff like 'lol Vibe only has 150 apm he just spammmmms he actually sucks i have same apm lol.' Then I'm going to ask, 'why is his macro soooo much better then. You must suckkkkkk even harder if have useless apm in the useless apm meter.'
Now that I've actually played 1.4 I think this change is pretty dumb. Checking your hotkeys does matter for checking build progress or larva injects. Sure it's possible to spam with those, but it's possible to spam almost any command... that doesn't mean that every use of it is spam. Sc2gears is the only place I'll bother checking APM from now on.
I'd laugh if Sjow's apm dropped to like 30 haha. I don't see the problem though.. but maybe they should leave an option for normal APM to be able to be shown.
I didn't realize the players spamming 8 move commands on a single spot was effective APM. + Show Spoiler +
Yes I'm being facetious. You know the types of players, the ones that take a scouting worker and click on a xel'naga tower 5 times even though the 1st action was all that was necessary.
On September 23 2011 05:25 garlicface wrote: I didn't realize the players spamming 8 move commands on a single spot was effective APM. + Show Spoiler +
Yes I'm being facetious. You know the types of players, the ones that take a scouting worker and click on a xel'naga tower 5 times even though the 1st action was all that was necessary.
yep, they didn't really think this through when the worst type of spam still counts...
I agree that the change is dumb, but only because it was something that didn't need to be changed and they spent some resources on it. But that being said, as long as everyone is compared with the same APM counter, doesn't it not really matter? You can still directly compare yourself to another player, as well as compare your APM from match to match.
APM is not a game-deciding factor - I mean the number it shows. You can key-tap all day and have excellent APM and run all your marines into banelings, or just forget to build units and pile up resources -> c'mon, don't tell me it didn't happen to you ! At the end all that matters is who won and who lost
On September 23 2011 04:38 Micket wrote: I am going to laugh when people say stuff like 'lol Vibe only has 150 apm he just spammmmms he actually sucks i have same apm lol.' Then I'm going to ask, 'why is his macro soooo much better then. You must suckkkkkk even harder if have useless apm in the useless apm meter.'
Vibe doesn't suck. But I could tell from the get go that his APM was grossly inflated and he wasn't really that fast. Vibe's not bad, but he definitely spams enough to make his APM appear high even amongst pros when he's not really playing that much faster than others.
How can this be anything but bad/useless. Just because you are spamming does not mean you are not making action clicks. What is the point in even measuring your "actions" per minute if all of the actions are not included. Who cares if someone is wasting actions or not. At the end of the day they are still making action moves. The fact of the matter is this new way of measuring apm is not telling you exactly how many actions your are making. So I don't really see the point in SCII even measuring apm if it is going to be inaccurate.
On September 23 2011 06:26 MindRush wrote: APM is not a game-deciding factor - I mean the number it shows. You can key-tap all day and have excellent APM and run all your marines into banelings, or just forget to build units and pile up resources -> c'mon, don't tell me it didn't happen to you ! At the end all that matters is who won and who lost
that don't make sense, if you have excellent apm, you can split your marines, build all units and have excellent macro. If you have low apm you can't.
On September 23 2011 06:26 MindRush wrote: APM is not a game-deciding factor - I mean the number it shows. You can key-tap all day and have excellent APM and run all your marines into banelings, or just forget to build units and pile up resources -> c'mon, don't tell me it didn't happen to you ! At the end all that matters is who won and who lost
People need to stop lying to themselves. It obviously is. Look at grubby's new vlog. oGs coach said that his problem was that he played too slow. You can only be at the highest level of play with great APM.
SjoW is great but he is not Code S material because he is slow. You can only play a perfect macro game with sick apm. You can only harass and multitask with sick apm. You can see that when multitasking is taking place people's apm will spike.
It is simple, as you play faster and faster you'll get the most from your BOs, your decisions and the engagements.
Have you never knew something you had to do in a game to win or be in a better position, but you just KNEW you couldn't pull the play atm? It happens to me all the time, if I were faster I would let less minerals float while I harass with my hellions.
On September 23 2011 06:06 ThirdDegree wrote: I agree that the change is dumb, but only because it was something that didn't need to be changed and they spent some resources on it. But that being said, as long as everyone is compared with the same APM counter, doesn't it not really matter? You can still directly compare yourself to another player, as well as compare your APM from match to match.
I thought so too, then I remembered Day9's emphasis on "tapping" one's hot-keys in order to monitor unit production, cooldowns and upgrades while performing other actions, such as scouting. Now those players won't have their "tapping" actions counted when being compared to players who don't tap at all.
Not that I really give a crap. I think high and efficient APM is important for high-level play but I only ever bring up the APM tab for shits and giggles anyway.
On September 23 2011 06:06 ThirdDegree wrote: I agree that the change is dumb, but only because it was something that didn't need to be changed and they spent some resources on it. But that being said, as long as everyone is compared with the same APM counter, doesn't it not really matter? You can still directly compare yourself to another player, as well as compare your APM from match to match.
I thought so too, then I remembered Day9's emphasis on "tapping" one's hot-keys in order to monitor unit production, cooldowns and upgrades while performing other actions, such as scouting. Now those players won't have their "tapping" actions counted when being compared to players who don't tap at all.
Not that I really give a crap. I think high and efficient APM is important for high-level play but I only ever bring up the APM tab for shits and giggles anyway.
And so what if they're compared? The only thing that'll happen, is maybe someone who's watching the replay (you, or the other guy who played, because let's be honest, most of the time no one wants to watch YOUR replays) and they'll glance at the APM tab a time or two, and go, "interesting, blizzard said we both played with 80apm"
And then the only thing you'll care about is who won. You're not going to go to bed that night thinking, "damn! If only i'd had more of my APM recorded, i'd've been able to beat him!"
Because you're going to be doing the exact same amount of actions. Whether or not blizzard writes it down is completely irrelevant.
On September 23 2011 06:26 MindRush wrote: APM is not a game-deciding factor - I mean the number it shows. You can key-tap all day and have excellent APM and run all your marines into banelings, or just forget to build units and pile up resources -> c'mon, don't tell me it didn't happen to you ! At the end all that matters is who won and who lost
People need to stop lying to themselves. It obviously is. Look at grubby's new vlog. oGs coach said that his problem was that he played too slow. You can only be at the highest level of play with great APM.
SjoW is great but he is not Code S material because he is slow. You can only play a perfect macro game with sick apm. You can only harass and multitask with sick apm. You can see that when multitasking is taking place people's apm will spike.
It is simple, as you play faster and faster you'll get the most from your BOs, your decisions and the engagements.
Have you never knew something you had to do in a game to win or be in a better position, but you just KNEW you couldn't pull the play atm? It happens to me all the time, if I were faster I would let less minerals float while I harass with my hellions.
That's exactly what he's saying. Who cares if tapping or not is counted. If you have the APM to split your marines, and macro and micro at the same time, then you'll still have a really high apm listed, and you'll be able to crush pepole in games.
If literally all you did is sit there and tap between buildings, and you're bad at macro, and micro. you'll lose. End of story, because you'll have super high gosu apm according to sc2gears, but you'll suck ass when you actually play someone.
No ones saying that fast players should slow down. This patch isn't going to slow fast players down. It's just not going to count some of the cycling that they do.
Switching to view another group should always be counted as an action.. i mean it definitely is an action. It's not necessarily useless, plenty of times you simply need to cycle and check on things without issuing a command after. Who cycles past the first 5 minutes for no purpose?? Like it would actually be detrimental to your play unless you are able to keep up with the speed. Changing APM to an entirely different meaning is just weird, it's not minutes and it's not all actions... if you start removing things which just MIGHT be useless it's totally different.
Why even change this? don't get it at all. Have APM/eAPM instead of obscuring data people might want to know. It's not a huge deal of course but is pointless to change.
Doesn't really affect me personally but it's one of those things that I just don't get, why change it? Were people calling out for this? At the very least keep the old APM measure and have an EAPM on top, in fact THAT way you can differentiate the spam a lot more easily
Agree with the people who think it was just to appease the lower-level players who perhaps find those high APMs disconcerting and whatnot.
Umm, if tapping 12345 is spam then what the hell is spam clicking your army to a certain position on the map?
At least tapping 12345 on your production facilities actually serves a valuable purpose such as checking on your macro at all times while as only one click is really necessary for an army to move somewhere.
Seriously, APM makes NO sense after this patch because spam clicking your army overrides so many other actions. The previous way of measuring APM wasn't always indicative of how fast someone plays, but it made a hell of a lot more sense.
The reason for tapping is not to keep you in the mindset or keep your fingers warm or anything like that, you cycle through your production facilities to see the progress of the units and maintain solid macro.
My apm was around 180 pre-patch, now it's around 130-150
APM doesn't matter. It doesn't affect the outcome of the game and it does not directly translate into skill, so why do you care? - Are any of the opponents of the new eAPM change really claiming that the APM changes the outcome of the game? Are people taking up this argument so confused that they think that this is what their opponents are claiming? No one believes that the number displayed as your APM is a factor in you winning the game. - If APM is so inconsequential to you, then why do YOU care how people wish to see their APM displayed? If you play Protoss and don't care about the TvZ matchup at all, even in a spectator sense, then why would you be opposed to anyone taking a stance on a balance issue in the TvZ matchup, if it is obviously does not matter?
The new APM will reduce inflated spam, and now spammers will finally not be able to claim that their high APM translates to skill. - You can still spam. In fact, the new system actually encourages movement spam, as mindless unit move commands, reminiscent of how people play diablo, still register as valid actions. In fact, there will be an even larger gap between mindless spammers and skill, since movement spamming is usually more useless than tap-checking.
The new APM is a better measurement of how quickly you are playing, since it only tracks useful actions. - Read above, spam actions are still possible. -
On September 23 2011 18:06 CatNzHat wrote: The reason for tapping is not to keep you in the mindset or keep your fingers warm or anything like that, you cycle through your production facilities to see the progress of the units and maintain solid macro.
My apm was around 180 pre-patch, now it's around 130-150
. It actually boggles my mind how many people in this thread do not understand this very simple concept. Tap checking is something all high level players do, and is not useless spam. Watch any pro stream, and look at the bottom center at the current unit / building selections. It will occasionally show various control groups and production facilities being rapidly selected, with no action in between.
The argument being made here against the system is not that lower APM numbers for players will result in a difference in gameplay, rather, it is that the new way of calculating APM actually renders the statistic useless, as it displays neither effective APM nor real APM. This would be analogous to a scenario in which blizzard changed the workers produced tab to only show workers that mined minerals. The statistic is misleading and does not yield useful information.
Why is having the correct APM displayed useful at all? Well, to many, it can help them improve their hand speed, or increase the pace they play the game at. Trying to improve at something, like getting faster (not spamming faster), it is always helpful to have a reliable measurement to mark progress. When runners prepare for a race, they do not want their measurement be flawed in some way, i.e. only showing paces taken rather than overall time. The new system of calculating APM hinders the ability to see progress, since some actions that would legitimately help a player be a faster player are ignored and not displayed.
From Blizzard's point of view, anything that keeps newer players motivated is good. The change to how "APM" is measured, along with keeping everyone below masters from seeing their losses some months ago lines up with such a policy.
For those who have a daily goal of increasing his APM (Diamonds and a majority of Masters perhaps?), it is quite annoying. BW-style APM, whether most of us will admit it or not, is usually indicative of a player's multitasking capacity. If we consider the widely accepted opinion that people below high masters have inefficient macro, the new change to APM represents a tool for improvement that has been lost.
Now, Blizz has 2 more expansions lined up. If blizz retains players who would have otherwise been discouraged by losses being shown, apm, etc., then it justifies those actions from an ROI point of view. I just hope they use the revenue well to improve this game to compensate the players who keep grinding away - players who never cared about losses in the first place so long as they perceive improvement in their game, players who actually care about their classic APM because they have been put in situations where their multitasking just couldn't hold.
Very shrewd of Blizzard, knowing that semi-serious players won't put this game down just because losses are hidden, and definitely not because APM measurement has turned into an utter sham. Those who constantly whine about losses and APM however, represent copies of HotS that might not get picked up.
On September 23 2011 17:17 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm, if tapping 12345 is spam then what the hell is spam clicking your army to a certain position on the map?
Precisely. That kinda stuff is half the reason my APM is, well, half.
But I'd say tapping isn't really a valid action when the player doesn't even look or looks every 3 seconds from the start to the end of constructing something.
They could try and intelligently detect move-spam and repeat tapping of the same button, except for army selections where tapping twice centres the screen on the unit, which is IMO a very valid action.
And spam is just spam. Still APM, though rubbish APM.
I'm a bit confused really. If you were doing "useful" tapping to check your production structures, then you should also be producing out of them more regularly, and therefore your real APM will be higher compared to someone who doesn't tap, or only taps to spam and fake higher APM.
I don't understand this change really. i mean I understand that spamming isn't actual actions helping your play besides tapping. But those who are happy because there low non-spam apm looks better. stop it. Spamming is completely fine, and in a lot of cases helps your mental game at the start of the match. As well as the obvious warming up of your hands for those micro intensive moments during a match. Just because it doesn't count it in the apm tab, doesn't mean anyone is going to stop spamming early in the game. It keeps your mind moving fast, as well as your hands. Nada, who has 300 apm thoughout almost any length game, SPAMS like a madman early. Unbelieveable spam. I saw him at mlg raleigh playing, unreal spam. now his apm will be half that if not more than half that. But in the end, it REALLY doesn't matter. All that matters is the "tracking" of your apm in the tab. Tracking your apm with the tab is useless as most players can feel after a game if they were "fast" or not. It's just making those who don't spam feel better I guess. Which is fine, because spamming is the last thing on the list when trying to get good at sc.
But if anyone who does spam is upset about this, then it's deserved. I know LOADS of those people who watch a game and only look at the apm tab.
I'm one of those players that likes to spam 300 apm when all you did was build 3 buildings and queue workers. This results in burst APM early which averages out to 130-140 apm after about 8-10 minutes gametime. After the patch I noticed the new APM counter seems to be highly skewed toward more bases. first base adds 56 apm, second base adds 60-80 apm third base adds 40-50 apm making. Obviously these values should be taken in relation to the old 140 apm tap average.
Before the apm was kinda an entertaining tab look at me i can spam harder than you. Currently the apm change is kind of boring because i like to play 1 handed for the first 6 minutes or so when i'm bored and now people won't notice my apm being unusually low. Maybe in future when top level players are like 5 base vs 5 base those 300+ apms will be seen again but currently blizzard just removed a for fun feature that was useless and replaced it with a not fun feature thats useless.
On September 23 2011 23:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I'm a bit confused really. If you were doing "useful" tapping to check your production structures, then you should also be producing out of them more regularly, and therefore your real APM will be higher compared to someone who doesn't tap, or only taps to spam and fake higher APM.
Its also a mental thing, as you cycle through your hotkeys (1515151515154433443366) you're going "Macro, positioning, macro, positioning, scout, harass, scout, harass". Even if you aren't doing anything that click, you're considering if that's what you need to do at this time. I regularly spam the hotkey for my obs for no reason except to make my camera bounce to their base for a split second. I'll spam by army hotkey after that to check for crazy shit. 90% of the time its just "spam." 10% of the time its game changing.
On September 23 2011 23:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I'm a bit confused really. If you were doing "useful" tapping to check your production structures, then you should also be producing out of them more regularly, and therefore your real APM will be higher compared to someone who doesn't tap, or only taps to spam and fake higher APM.
Its also a mental thing, as you cycle through your hotkeys (1515151515154433443366) you're going "Macro, positioning, macro, positioning, scout, harass, scout, harass". Even if you aren't doing anything that click, you're considering if that's what you need to do at this time. I regularly spam the hotkey for my obs for no reason except to make my camera bounce to their base for a split second. I'll spam by army hotkey after that to check for crazy shit. 90% of the time its just "spam." 10% of the time its game changing.
Yep, I totally get that its a mental thing. That's why I don't think its super important to measure it. If your early game "warmup" tapping/cycling is to get you ready for midgame, then it'll show up when you're doing more things in the midgame then someone who doesn't warm up. And when you do the cycling midgame it should show up in more scouting, more repositioning, more units produced. The APM counter probably should count doubletaps to change camera position though. Does it count minimap leftclicking to do the same thing?
I don't know if this has been discussed since this page is 36 pages long, but I think rather than argue whether or not spamming is useful or whatever most of the discussion has been about, it's better to look at it on a wider scale.
The coverage of Starcraft 2 has undoubtedly brought the game to a much wider audience than most (if not all) other RTS's ever have. I think the detrimental part of having the APM change is the "skill" appeal to people who aren't very familiar with the game. One of the major things that everyone I have ever shown a Starcraft (Brood War or SC2) game to is how fast the players' hands are moving. Especially with the addition of the Razer headsets that measure your APM and change color accordingly, I think Blizzard should really be trying to showcase the APM rather than altering it by not recognizing "wasteful" keystrokes.
The appeal of telling someone that has relatively little interest in computer games that Nada regularly plays with close to 400 APM and then showing him or her things like his keyboard view, his headset color compared to other players', and FPVODs of his make this game far more attractive. It's like telling someone that Zdeno Chara had a 106 MPH slap shot at the NHL skills competition as compared to saying "he has a hard shot."
From a marketing point of view, showcasing the skill of the players has to be a stronger alternative than emphasizing EAPM. The debate on APM will always be a prominent one within the community, but I think that's something that should overlooked when it comes to introducing new people to the game.
In my opinion it is a good change. However, it would have been even better if they at the same time fixed it so APM was actually actions per minute and not actions per blizzard-minute. It makes no sense to have it this way. If anything, they should have changed it at the same time so peoples APM didn't go down like mad, as it would have resulted in less complaints.
On September 24 2011 02:00 FuRRyChoBo wrote: The appeal of telling someone that has relatively little interest in computer games that Nada regularly plays with close to 400 APM and then showing him or her things like his keyboard view, his headset color compared to other players', and FPVODs of his make this game far more attractive. It's like telling someone that Zdeno Chara had a 106 MPH slap shot at the NHL skills competition as compared to saying "he has a hard shot."
Ok, so why can't you still do that? I mean I've watched quite a bit of starcraft pro games, especially the first few GSLs. APM was just a number vaguely associated with player skills. Pros had APM in the hundreds, less skilled players in the 50-60ish range and newbies in the 10-20s. If someone told me Nada had a 400 APM I wouldn't sit down and think "wow he does...*pulls out calculator* 6 things a second!?". It'd just be "huh, his number is bigger then most people's number, good for him". Not to mention at the time I would have thought "actions" in APM included actually giving units orders, not just cycling control groups. Sure anyone can do that quickly. What impressed me as a spectator was the onscreen action, the camera flipping back and forth from midfield repositions, to drops to home base activity, crazy unit micro, lightning fast spellcasting. Stuff that the new APM still measures just fine afaik, except possibly for the viewpoint movement.
Now everyone's APM is lower, some more than others. But will anything really change at the competitive level? Unless someone's APM was disproportionately based on tapping the relative numbers should stay the same. I guess I'll have to watch some games and see.
I don't like the change, and don't understand the need to tinker with it. As a spectator, it's fun to notice the difference in speed between casual and professional players. Sure, it doesn't mean much at face value, but it's an easily quantifiable statistic, and the mental impression of speed that the numbers provide makes things seem a bit more exciting.
The silliest thing is that they placed the change under "bug fixes". The only bug was the blizzard minutes and they didnt change that. APM worked perfektly fina as a measurement for over 8years since JCA invented BW-Chart and now they just have to mess it up for no apparent reason at all.
Its funny how I can right click my minerals 1000 times a second and each action counts so I can get high apm for real useless spam.. but cycling production buildings means nothing.
After games I lost I would sometimes watch replays on x8 speed and look at my apm to see how my macro was before since I would never do useless spam so it was an easy way to tell how my macro is.. now I cant do that anymore since even if I have terrible macro it will look similar.
On September 24 2011 00:50 Monkeyballs25 wrote: The APM counter probably should count doubletaps to change camera position though. Does it count minimap leftclicking to do the same thing?
Nope. Camera shifts via unit hotkeys, camera hotkeys, or snapping with the minimap do not count actions. (And to be clear, these did not count as actions pre 1.4 as well).
I don't really care about this but what annoys me is, if they took the time to do this, why the fuck didn't they just take the time to also make it show actual apm and not x1,34 or w/e it is.
Don't really care much about the change but i just don't see the point of it. Let the spammers have high APM and fix some of the other problems in the game.
APM spamming is an old ritual carried out by oldschoolers. It's proven that faster movement allows a player to be able to react on-the-fly at a faster speed when he needs to, since his hands are more used to fast speed.
Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that the APM change will make us slower; no. You will still spam if you know it is useful to you, regardless of what the APM charts state in the beginning of the game. However, the ability to see your APM in replays is more of a psychological boost in my opinion.
I don't agree that this should have been changed. If anything, I think the ingame timer should be changed to real time for "Fastest", or any other game mode. I just don't like the timers and APM measurements whatsoever, but I even admit that they won't change anything aside from psychological effects which mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.
On September 24 2011 08:12 gulati wrote: APM spamming is an old ritual carried out by oldschoolers. It's proven that faster movement allows a player to be able to react on-the-fly at a faster speed when he needs to, since his hands are more used to fast speed.
Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that the APM change will make us slower; no. You will still spam if you know it is useful to you, regardless of what the APM charts state in the beginning of the game. However, the ability to see your APM in replays is more of a psychological boost in my opinion.
I don't agree that this should have been changed. If anything, I think the ingame timer should be changed to real time for "Fastest", or any other game mode. I just don't like the timers and APM measurements whatsoever, but I even admit that they won't change anything aside from psychological effects which mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.
please note that sc2gears' apm (from the replays/etc/whatever) is still how it was... so I don't really care (when I look at replays I don't really open the apm tab... there are better tabs to be looking at ...
The new APM works exactly I expected. I watched Check v. Sage, and DRG v. Happy. The obs showed APMs occasionally, and guess who had higher APMs*. Now we are seeing who can perform more "actions" (not tapping) every minute and how it relates to skills (and hopefully to win/loss).
*In case you're that dull, it's Sage's APM > Check's, DRG's > Happy's, by significant amount when shown.
Sorry to quote myself again, but I haven't heard a single rebuttal to my argument so I'll re-present it.
---- It will have more objective meaning. Clicking actually takes screen time during which you can't really do anything else. That's why you don't see anyone clicking 50 times to move an SCV. IMO, If someone does the same quality macro/micro with less control group spamming, then it's not illogical to value that more.
For example:
- player A does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 10 cycling through the CCs - player B does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 5 cycling through the CCs - player C does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and she/he doesn't need to cycle around because s/he is simply so well trained to the point that s/he never forgets it without even looking at CCs.
What you get is 3 SCV production every 20 secs, and those are the "Actions" that are measured. How you get there will differ per individual, and I think it's not too absurd to assume, at pro level, if you can do the same/more with less, you're probably a better player. And if you're player C, you may be able to produce marines, marauders, tanks, etc. and better engage in the battle (i.e. more "actions") while player A is busy cycling through CCs to produce SCVs. So if player C does more things while player A cycles around her/his CC, they are counted as "actions" toward the APM.
Basically this new APM measurement doesn't care how you get things done, but it counts the number of things you get done in the same time period. It's definitely more objective way of measuring APM, and it will be much more useful/meaningful than current way of measuring. ----
Some people keep bringing nonsense like "spam-tapping isn't counted but spam-clicking is counted, fail", etc. Think before making yourself silly: Why don't we see pros spam-clicking, unless it's necessary? Because clicking takes screen time during which you really can't do anything else. Mindless spam-clicking move command is a sure way to lose.
Only circumstantial criticism I would consider reasonable is that this new APM makes it more difficult to compare it with that of BW. But that's not a straight/logical answer, but rather an emotional one.
I would only spam 125125125125125 when i wanted to show off how fast i coudl get my APM to go.... other than that it was mostly spamming to keep my fingers active.
On September 23 2011 06:26 MindRush wrote: APM is not a game-deciding factor - I mean the number it shows. You can key-tap all day and have excellent APM and run all your marines into banelings, or just forget to build units and pile up resources -> c'mon, don't tell me it didn't happen to you ! At the end all that matters is who won and who lost
People need to stop lying to themselves. It obviously is. Look at grubby's new vlog. oGs coach said that his problem was that he played too slow. You can only be at the highest level of play with great APM.
SjoW is great but he is not Code S material because he is slow. You can only play a perfect macro game with sick apm. You can only harass and multitask with sick apm. You can see that when multitasking is taking place people's apm will spike.
It is simple, as you play faster and faster you'll get the most from your BOs, your decisions and the engagements.
Have you never knew something you had to do in a game to win or be in a better position, but you just KNEW you couldn't pull the play atm? It happens to me all the time, if I were faster I would let less minerals float while I harass with my hellions.
i have to agree. you really need to be fast to excel in sc2. it puts you at a huge disadvantage if you can't keep up with your opponents. if you solely depends on your game knowledge to play this game, you won't be able to beat someone who is just as knowledgeable as you're but faster. speed is just so important, but i don't think speed is exactly the same as apm. i do think this change is a better measurement for the speed of a player, but this isn't the definition of apm anymore.
Good discussion here, but I think I have something novel to say, if I could be so bold.
I tell all the people I'm playing with, new players and older ones to spam. It increases your hand speed, and also it burns into your brain, so it's reflexive, what the hotkeys are.
My brain is SOOO trained that 1 is scout/harass, 2 is army, 3 is caster (infestor or maybe flank), 4 and up are hatcheries. Spam makes this reflexive. Double tapping early game is burning this into your brain. You don't think of your natrual as a place to mouse look too, you think of it as the key 5.
This is one of the major benifits, and I also think there is one more.
Spamming begins to disconnect your actions from your thinking. You can move your hands to create workers, check building progress, check the safety of your units, scout your enemy, all reflexively. Your hands are just doing the work on auto pilot and your brain can be doing something else. Planning your tech path or trying to predict your opponent.
It happens slowly at first, but builds up over time. Eventually you start to completely disconnect what you are doing on the screen from your brain. Your hands just sort of take care of the automatic things like larva injecting and moving your army or scout away from danger. And your actual thinking is in a completely different place.
What concerns me about this change, is that players I play with are going to see less of an immediate reward from me encouraging them to spam. And hence, may be less likely to really try to keep it up. Which is, as I've said, disconnecting their hands from their brain and making the hotkey actions automatic. Grouping your army keys and constantly re-assigning so when you move it, EVERYONE goes with. This kind of stuff is important, and I think Blizzard has removed some of the motivation for newer players to do this.
The positive note is, as mentioned, their APM looks similar to a masters player, but in reality that just a lie.
Not that APM really matters to me, but I disagree with this "new" calculation. Selecting a control group is an action. It would have been better to not count spamming move commands, as that actually doesnt add to effective actions. Selecting control groups are actions and effective actions, for example when tapping.
On September 24 2011 08:59 usethis2 wrote: Sorry to quote myself again, but I haven't heard a single rebuttal to my argument so I'll re-present it.
---- It will have more objective meaning. Clicking actually takes screen time during which you can't really do anything else. That's why you don't see anyone clicking 50 times to move an SCV. IMO, If someone does the same quality macro/micro with less control group spamming, then it's not illogical to value that more.
For example:
- player A does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 10 cycling through the CCs - player B does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 5 cycling through the CCs - player C does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and she/he doesn't need to cycle around because s/he is simply so well trained to the point that s/he never forgets it without even looking at CCs.
What you get is 3 SCV production every 20 secs, and those are the "Actions" that are measured. How you get there will differ per individual, and I think it's not too absurd to assume, at pro level, if you can do the same/more with less, you're probably a better player. And if you're player C, you may be able to produce marines, marauders, tanks, etc. and better engage in the battle (i.e. more "actions") while player A is busy cycling through CCs to produce SCVs. So if player C does more things while player A cycles around her/his CC, they are counted as "actions" toward the APM.
Basically this new APM measurement doesn't care how you get things done, but it counts the number of things you get done in the same time period. It's definitely more objective way of measuring APM, and it will be much more useful/meaningful than current way of measuring. ----
Some people keep bringing nonsense like "spam-tapping isn't counted but spam-clicking is counted, fail", etc. Think before making yourself silly: Why don't we see pros spam-clicking, unless it's necessary? Because clicking takes screen time during which you really can't do anything else. Mindless spam-clicking move command is a sure way to lose.
Only circumstantial criticism I would consider reasonable is that this new APM makes it more difficult to compare it with that of BW. But that's not a straight/logical answer, but rather an emotional one.
Maybe more objective meaning for you, but not for me. Your definition action is different to mine. Some player tabs to check their production queue, health/energy of their units. To complete this task, actions are required.
It might show game state changing action more clearly, but it removes the decision layer that it can be potentially useful.
It might not be the right indicator for most people, as many just spams them pointlessly, but frankly I don't think it matters, will you care that a bronze has higher APM than you? No, I don't think so.
You have to understand that APM are meaningless by itself, you can spam all you want and still lose. However those tabbing data are still very important, especially at higher level games. You don't measure yourself against people with highest APM, you measure it with true winners (pros) with high APM.
On September 24 2011 09:46 Sveet wrote: Not that APM really matters to me, but I disagree with this "new" calculation. Selecting a control group is an action. It would have been better to not count spamming move commands, as that actually doesnt add to effective actions. Selecting control groups are actions and effective actions, for example when tapping.
But that is inherently subjective and comparison becomes meaningless. That's the whole point of this new APM. You play the game whichever way you want, and the game will count the actions that occurs on screen. And I'm inclined to believe that it will show a better correlation with a player's multitasking.
What concerns me about this change, is that players I play with are going to see less of an immediate reward from me encouraging them to spam. And hence, may be less likely to really try to keep it up. Which is, as I've said, disconnecting their hands from their brain and making the hotkey actions automatic. Grouping your army keys and constantly re-assigning so when you move it, EVERYONE goes with. This kind of stuff is important, and I think Blizzard has removed some of the motivation for newer players to do this.
The positive note is, as mentioned, their APM looks similar to a masters player, but in reality that just a lie.
I don't understand this. You're saying that the *only* difference between masters players and <league your friends are in> players is tapping? Masters players don't harass more, produce more, scout more, unit micro more any of that? If tapping is good, and I believe that it is, it should result in them doing more currently measured actions per minute. If they're just reflexingly tapping because you told them to but not actually doing more stuff as a followup, then their new APM won't increase.
What concerns me about this change, is that players I play with are going to see less of an immediate reward from me encouraging them to spam. And hence, may be less likely to really try to keep it up. Which is, as I've said, disconnecting their hands from their brain and making the hotkey actions automatic. Grouping your army keys and constantly re-assigning so when you move it, EVERYONE goes with. This kind of stuff is important, and I think Blizzard has removed some of the motivation for newer players to do this.
The positive note is, as mentioned, their APM looks similar to a masters player, but in reality that just a lie.
I don't understand this. You're saying that the *only* difference between masters players and <league your friends are in> players is tapping? Masters players don't harass more, produce more, scout more, unit micro more any of that? If tapping is good, and I believe that it is, it should result in them doing more currently measured actions per minute. If they're just reflexingly tapping because you told them to but not actually doing more stuff as a followup, then their new APM won't increase.
to defend his point you could make the argument that everything you mentioned is a product of tapping. not queuing units (can) lead to more production, harassment isn't nearly as good if the micro to do it makes you stockpile money (except pre 1.4 bfh lol), scouting again, if you have gaps in you're early game probe production because you are microing your scout, it can ruin your build order.
But I digress, it's clear all 3 of us think apm does matter, which is precisely what bothers me about this patch. It clearly benefits people who think that APM does not matter, when they always had the option of not opening the apm tab. I personally have been going by sc2gears apm for a while now anyway, but being able to have it open for the visual sync with the replay was a tool I used from time to time.
On September 24 2011 08:59 usethis2 wrote: Sorry to quote myself again, but I haven't heard a single rebuttal to my argument so I'll re-present it.
---- It will have more objective meaning. Clicking actually takes screen time during which you can't really do anything else. That's why you don't see anyone clicking 50 times to move an SCV. IMO, If someone does the same quality macro/micro with less control group spamming, then it's not illogical to value that more.
For example:
- player A does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 10 cycling through the CCs - player B does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 5 cycling through the CCs - player C does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and she/he doesn't need to cycle around because s/he is simply so well trained to the point that s/he never forgets it without even looking at CCs.
What you get is 3 SCV production every 20 secs, and those are the "Actions" that are measured. How you get there will differ per individual, and I think it's not too absurd to assume, at pro level, if you can do the same/more with less, you're probably a better player. And if you're player C, you may be able to produce marines, marauders, tanks, etc. and better engage in the battle (i.e. more "actions") while player A is busy cycling through CCs to produce SCVs. So if player C does more things while player A cycles around her/his CC, they are counted as "actions" toward the APM.
Basically this new APM measurement doesn't care how you get things done, but it counts the number of things you get done in the same time period. It's definitely more objective way of measuring APM, and it will be much more useful/meaningful than current way of measuring. ----
Some people keep bringing nonsense like "spam-tapping isn't counted but spam-clicking is counted, fail", etc. Think before making yourself silly: Why don't we see pros spam-clicking, unless it's necessary? Because clicking takes screen time during which you really can't do anything else. Mindless spam-clicking move command is a sure way to lose.
Only circumstantial criticism I would consider reasonable is that this new APM makes it more difficult to compare it with that of BW. But that's not a straight/logical answer, but rather an emotional one.
So who is this supposed 'Player C' then, like who the hell even meets that criteria? And why are you so invested in trying to prove cycling control groups is not actually useful. The lengths people go to apparently try and justify their lower APM is ridiculous. Doesn't the fact that every top level player cycles tip you off to the fact it is blatantly useful...
Note i didn't say everyone who cycles groups even uses it effectively, but if you don't do it you are simply handicapping yourself; unless you going to try keep counters in your head for your production to know when units will come out and it certainly effects your awareness. If not cycling is a handicap then how the hell can it be considered meaningless.
Instead of making inane arguments trying to prove its meaningless why not go and practice doing it and notice your mechanics actually will improve as you get used to it. I say this as someone who is really lazy about control groups anyway, i know i'd improve if i put the effort in this area.
I hotkey my hatcheries individually so I tap a lot to check for when my larvae pops. So for me that taps a lot -- not having it count as an action just feels weird. In my opinion it should definitely count as an action.
I guess Blizzard wants more third party software to be used. I havent really used sc2gears that much, but I guess I will check a couple of replays there each month to see if I have become faster.
This new form of APM is pretty useless as many has pointed out. It doesnt meassure APM at all.. The thing that puzzles me the most is why move commands is still 1 apm per click. If you select a controlgroup or box a set of units and give 10 move commands they should count as 1, until you select a new group of units. People who spam only to get high APM can just spam movecommands now, and this new form of meassurement is just as faulty as the old one obviously was in Blizzards eyes. Pretty dumb to relase a faulty "fix" if you ask me.
On September 24 2011 08:59 usethis2 wrote: Sorry to quote myself again, but I haven't heard a single rebuttal to my argument so I'll re-present it.
---- It will have more objective meaning. Clicking actually takes screen time during which you can't really do anything else. That's why you don't see anyone clicking 50 times to move an SCV. IMO, If someone does the same quality macro/micro with less control group spamming, then it's not illogical to value that more.
For example:
- player A does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 10 cycling through the CCs - player B does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 5 cycling through the CCs - player C does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and she/he doesn't need to cycle around because s/he is simply so well trained to the point that s/he never forgets it without even looking at CCs.
What you get is 3 SCV production every 20 secs, and those are the "Actions" that are measured. How you get there will differ per individual, and I think it's not too absurd to assume, at pro level, if you can do the same/more with less, you're probably a better player. And if you're player C, you may be able to produce marines, marauders, tanks, etc. and better engage in the battle (i.e. more "actions") while player A is busy cycling through CCs to produce SCVs. So if player C does more things while player A cycles around her/his CC, they are counted as "actions" toward the APM.
Basically this new APM measurement doesn't care how you get things done, but it counts the number of things you get done in the same time period. It's definitely more objective way of measuring APM, and it will be much more useful/meaningful than current way of measuring. ----
Some people keep bringing nonsense like "spam-tapping isn't counted but spam-clicking is counted, fail", etc. Think before making yourself silly: Why don't we see pros spam-clicking, unless it's necessary? Because clicking takes screen time during which you really can't do anything else. Mindless spam-clicking move command is a sure way to lose.
Only circumstantial criticism I would consider reasonable is that this new APM makes it more difficult to compare it with that of BW. But that's not a straight/logical answer, but rather an emotional one.
So who is this supposed 'Player C' then, like who the hell even meets that criteria? And why are you so invested in trying to prove cycling control groups is not actually useful. The lengths people go to apparently try and justify their lower APM is ridiculous. Doesn't the fact that every top level player cycles tip you off to the fact it is blatantly useful...
Note i didn't say everyone who cycles groups even uses it effectively, but if you don't do it you are simply handicapping yourself; unless you going to try keep counters in your head for your production to know when units will come out and it certainly effects your awareness. If not cycling is a handicap then how the hell can it be considered meaningless.
Instead of making inane arguments trying to prove its meaningless why not go and practice doing it and notice your mechanics actually will improve as you get used to it. I say this as someone who is really lazy about control groups anyway, i know i'd improve if i put the effort in this area.
How is my argument advocating lower APM?! That's the last thing that I expected anyone to come up with. If anything, higher APM is actually more valuable than before since the new system no longer counts redundant tappings. I don't know who the imaginary player C will be. It was an example to get my point across. My point is that the more things you get done, the higher your APM will be. You are free to be tapping as much as you wish. But we all know how subjective that is, which was precisely the reason why many people considered APM a meaningless (or at least not very reliable) measure in the past. That may change with this new system and higher APM might actually mean something.
BTW, I downloaded the DRG v. Thorzain final replays (patch 1.36) from Dreamhack tournament. DRG basically doesn't miss an inject for the first 15 mins or so. I kept a close eye on his queens and they were like clockwork orange. I don't know how difficult that is for top z players but it looked pretty amazing to me. His APM was around 250.
Then I got to watch a VOD from GSTL (patch 1.40) and when obs showing APMs briefly here and there, DRG's APM was, well, you guessed it - around 250.
P.S. Resorting to personal attack is one of the easiest ways to devalue your own voice. Just a friendly advice.
What concerns me about this change, is that players I play with are going to see less of an immediate reward from me encouraging them to spam. And hence, may be less likely to really try to keep it up. Which is, as I've said, disconnecting their hands from their brain and making the hotkey actions automatic. Grouping your army keys and constantly re-assigning so when you move it, EVERYONE goes with. This kind of stuff is important, and I think Blizzard has removed some of the motivation for newer players to do this.
The positive note is, as mentioned, their APM looks similar to a masters player, but in reality that just a lie.
I don't understand this. You're saying that the *only* difference between masters players and <league your friends are in> players is tapping? Masters players don't harass more, produce more, scout more, unit micro more any of that? If tapping is good, and I believe that it is, it should result in them doing more currently measured actions per minute. If they're just reflexingly tapping because you told them to but not actually doing more stuff as a followup, then their new APM won't increase.
Whoa I think you totally missed it. Have you ever watched someone new play? They Click on everything, look around the screen for things to do. Pan the camera around for no reason... and have to think for long periods of time about what to do next.
My point is simply that spamming gets you to do things automatically, like pressing 4sdd5sdd... drones made without thinking. Same with scouting. People who have played for years can forget that for everyone your hands just don't tap away as you happily think about something else. The sooner you can disconnect the two the better.
Starcraft is just clicking and tapping, that's it. And no one has to tell a new player to Click.
On August 26 2011 22:26 muzzy wrote: There will be some initial "shock" as players see their lower APM, but it will be good long term, as it's a more realistic measure.
The reason for tapping is to keep yourself in that fast paced mindset, fingers always moving. You'll still want to do that and it will still help you maintain a higher APM. It just won't artificially increase APM.
How will this be realistic pro players go through a control group cycle much faster and more frequently than less capable players.
I wouldn't mind seeing both figures to be honest, I can understand that people would be interested in how fast they're cycling. And I'd *really* love to see the kinds of differences in pro player APM numbers before and after 1.4, like the example usethis2 provided of DRG's APM.
This change is pretty stupid. It doesn't really make sense to say the new APM calculation better represents player actions if the initial selection still counts as an action. You should either count selection commands or not count them. If I drag scroll select some drones to go deal with a cannon rush but I realize I've selected too many so I quickly shift-click two of them but those two shift-clicks don't count as actions, how are you actually representing how fast the player is? It just doesn't make sense.
This thread shows the average TL poster going from "All those bad players spam cause they don't understand that they're not good enough to spam like the pros yet" to "WTF now my APM is lower OMG"
Although i do not care at all, IMO this new APM method of measurement is completely flawed. Cycling/tapping through control groups of production facilities is essential to any form of high level play, the fact that all pros are doing it is a proof of that. And no, i dont buy that pros are doing just to look better (APM-wise), cause there in for the money, if that habit kept them from winning more money they would quit doing it. That been said, i don't care if Blizzard comes up with some algorithm that needs 50% of your CPU time to calculate "effective APM"...it's getting silly really and the fact that they made so much noise out of it and dedicated resources to it is stupid.
I was wondering why my apm was low, forgot about the changes they did to calculate it. anyways, I can't say i really care either way, I spammed quite a bit when i play, but this change doesn't really bother me at all since i was never concerned with what my apm range was.
I think it's been explained before, but it is important to reiterate that there is no reason to change what APM is. APM should be exactly what it says it is. Actions Per Minute. I am totally okay with Blizzard adding somethign to the effect of EAPM.
What you have now is something that isn't APM but you call APM. It's nothing useful
People will still spam APM. For me, it look at the building time and unit time while I am spamming APM, instead of clicking on a building to see how things are moving along.
Funny thing is im seeing pros having below 100 apm after the patch, they have basically almost the same apm as bronzie now, gj blizzard ^^ make us noobs feeling proud
It doesn't matter at all. It is just going to take some getting used to. When we saw 300 apm pre patch the player was pretty quick. Now that number will be around 100 or whatever. Overall it wasn't necessary to make the change but it doesn't really matter.
they must have made this change so that pro players low level players look closer together... i think with this new amp you could probabliy have just as high of apm with only mouse
If they fix this kind of thing though, they should also fix repeated move command clicks in the same area. There are people who click 5 times to move their units less efficiently than someone who precisely clicked once.
That being said, I don't really care for this change.
I liked the old apm measurement better because it gave a great tool in selling starcraft 2 to my friends. When i tell some1 about esports and sc2 i usually go throught the basic and the more interesting parts of the game for guys who don't play like what it requires to be a pro or how much they earn, how much they train each day and such and as one of those things i tell them about how fast you need to be in game in order to be the very best and now that blizzard reduced the apm of every1 essentially. I can't speak about apm in the same way i used to :/
and I know that most of the people that follow sc2 apm doesn't mean much but when you tell someone that doesn't follow the scene it always adds some respect.
On September 26 2011 08:54 Wasteweiser wrote: So spamming move commands is incouraged but not spaming hotkeys which is vital for macro? /facepalm
This, and the fact you can't compare your APM to your past APM from patches before. I have no clue whether or not my multitasking or mechanics have improved.
On September 26 2011 08:54 Wasteweiser wrote: So spamming move commands is incouraged but not spaming hotkeys which is vital for macro? /facepalm
This, and the fact you can't compare your APM to your past APM from patches before. I have no clue whether or not my multitasking or mechanics have improved.
APM is not a measure of multitasking or mechanics in any way, shape or form. You're doing it wrong. Macro under pressure, on the other hand, is a solid test of multitasking. Are you keeping up with spending lategame? Or while harassing/attacking? Those are your measures.
On August 26 2011 22:26 muzzy wrote: There will be some initial "shock" as players see their lower APM, but it will be good long term, as it's a more realistic measure.
The reason for tapping is to keep yourself in that fast paced mindset, fingers always moving. You'll still want to do that and it will still help you maintain a higher APM. It just won't artificially increase APM.
How will this be realistic pro players go through a control group cycle much faster and more frequently than less capable players.
Thus pros will produce more, harass more, scout more. -> i.e. more actions.
Pros' APM will be much higher than those of wannabe-pros, or less capable players. Those less capable players' APMs will suffer the most. Simple as that.
I am already seeing good pros' APM hovering around 250~300 (and more) when things heat up. "Less capable players" that had pro-like APMs will no longer see their high APMs. You will need to do more and faster in order to have such high an APM and win. Sure you can spam click just for the heck of it but it won't help you win unfortunately. And you can be certain that pros won't spam click to raise their APMs.
At this point, the more I read these nonsensical replies, the more suspicious I become. I think there are some folks who are afraid of the reality.
On September 26 2011 17:22 PineappleSage wrote: mine was 210 now its 190 but it dose not realy matter it just shows the diferents between pros and the average gold joe
I'm sorry but this was funny to me.
You must be building up a fierce case of RSI with 190 new-APM worth of right click spam.
I was quite unhappy to see this patch go through as I used my apm to see how much I was "tapping" in the game as the OP mentioned. because I play terran tapping is very important to me as I want to be constantly keeping an eye on all by different production facilities. I don't think it's as much of an issue for zerg because they only have 1 production facility and protoss who have an icon on their screen to tell them when they aren't producing.Z
I mean sure I could watch the whole game and just see when I'm tapping but the apm is a quick and easy approximation that saves me re-watching the whole game.
If players just want to keep it up at the start of the game mineral stacking should both keep it higher and be actually useful.
I now am a 60apm master zerg ^^used to be 110 orso. not sure why its better this way, imo its important to tab through upgrades, building buildings etc
On September 26 2011 08:35 IntotheNorth wrote: Funny thing is im seeing pros having below 100 apm after the patch, they have basically almost the same apm as bronzie now, gj blizzard ^^ make us noobs feeling proud
Which ones? I pulled a random match from the first page of SC2rep and its listing an average APM of 175 for LiquidRet, with higher peaks. Meanwhile in my Silver league games I rarely see anyone above 30-60 average. If someone could actually pull a replay of a sub-100 APM pro playing a standard game that'd be great. Until then I have to assume the "omg they're catering to the noooooobs" thing is nonsense.
On September 26 2011 08:35 IntotheNorth wrote: Funny thing is im seeing pros having below 100 apm after the patch, they have basically almost the same apm as bronzie now, gj blizzard ^^ make us noobs feeling proud
Which ones? I pulled a random match from the first page of SC2rep and its listing an average APM of 175 for LiquidRet, with higher peaks. Meanwhile in my Silver league games I rarely see anyone above 30-60 average. If someone could actually pull a replay of a sub-100 APM pro playing a standard game that'd be great. Until then I have to assume the "omg they're catering to the noooooobs" thing is nonsense.
Those Ret replays are from before the patch. I actually haven't seen any pro replays from after patch 1.4 though, kinda curious what their apm is now.
ill admit i havent read any thing besides the first page and hte last page in this thread. has it reached 39 pages because people are trying to figure out calculations and such or are people actually riled up enough about this change to reach this amount of discussion?
I dont see how an APM counter change could piss people off so im a bit confused
On September 26 2011 08:54 Wasteweiser wrote: So spamming move commands is incouraged but not spaming hotkeys which is vital for macro? /facepalm
This, and the fact you can't compare your APM to your past APM from patches before. I have no clue whether or not my multitasking or mechanics have improved.
APM is not a measure of multitasking or mechanics in any way, shape or form. You're doing it wrong. Macro under pressure, on the other hand, is a solid test of multitasking. Are you keeping up with spending lategame? Or while harassing/attacking? Those are your measures.
Macroing under pressure is exactly where you get APM from. How the hell is a measurement that shows how many actions you are doing in game not an accurate measure?
for me honestly my APM has stayed same or in last few games were a bit higher ! at around 150 to 170 APM ! which surprised me as i'm just a platinum ZERG player !
hahahah this is going to make me use the ingame counter a lot less! it's similar to taking your sc2gears value and dividing by 3, and there are many times when a pro hits flat out 0.
stick to sc2gears i guess if you want a non-filtered measurement press 'm' in replays for the sake of curiosity now : D
so u dont get apm by spamming 2323232 but u get apm by spamming move command on the ground with ur scouting worker even if u click him to move to the same location?
to me the only logical way to count apm is by counting everything or excluding all sorts of spam, that includes move commands or attack commands that doesnt make a difference. for example clicking to move ur scouting overlord 50 times behind ur opponents natural in the same spot before he gets there should also count as spamming. but its too hard to make a realistic and 100% fair EAPM
so by that being said i think the apm bar should include all sorts of spamming. even if u just sit and do 232323 because thats not any worse than ordering your unit to move to same location/direction multiple times within 0.1 seconds
On September 27 2011 00:32 MorroW wrote: so u dont get apm by spamming 2323232 but u get apm by spamming move command on the ground with ur scouting worker even if u click him to move to the same location?
to me the only logical way to count apm is by counting everything or excluding all sorts of spam, that includes move commands or attack commands that doesnt make a difference. for example clicking to move ur scouting overlord 50 times behind ur opponents natural in the same spot before he gets there should also count as spamming. but its too hard to make a realistic and 100% fair EAPM
so by that being said i think the apm bar should include all sorts of spamming. even if u just sit and do 232323 because thats not any worse than ordering your unit to move to same location/direction multiple times within 0.1 seconds
Exactly.
And Blizzard's system didn't include camera hotkeys and minimap clicks either pre-patch, and I think they should have. And I could be wrong but double tapping to center the group on the screen is not considered 2 actions but just 1 pre-patch (0 in this one?). Basically all camera movement methods were not considered APM, although they're most likely part of the most meaningful "Actions", and are the best numerical measure we have of "good multitasking".
On September 26 2011 08:35 IntotheNorth wrote: Funny thing is im seeing pros having below 100 apm after the patch, they have basically almost the same apm as bronzie now, gj blizzard ^^ make us noobs feeling proud
Which ones? I pulled a random match from the first page of SC2rep and its listing an average APM of 175 for LiquidRet, with higher peaks. Meanwhile in my Silver league games I rarely see anyone above 30-60 average. If someone could actually pull a replay of a sub-100 APM pro playing a standard game that'd be great. Until then I have to assume the "omg they're catering to the noooooobs" thing is nonsense.
Those Ret replays are from before the patch. I actually haven't seen any pro replays from after patch 1.4 though, kinda curious what their apm is now.
Oh right, sorry. I'm also curious to see the numbers, just not sure where to start looking.
On September 27 2011 02:29 darthcaesar wrote: I'm really curious what ViBE and merZ's APM is now.
Personally I dropped from 140-150 to around 110.
For me it constantly keeps moving up the longer the game goes (which makes sense obviously). 10 minute game I'll barely hit 100, 15 minute game im around 120, 30 min game im at 150+ etc..
On September 27 2011 00:06 jojoleb wrote: for me honestly my APM has stayed same or in last few games were a bit higher ! at around 150 to 170 APM ! which surprised me as i'm just a platinum ZERG player !
jojo.554
I find that hard to believe....
Are you looking at sc2gears or the actual sc2 replay? I get about 240 apm on sc2gears and about 100 in game now.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote: Bad IMO. I will still do the 'tapping' stuff either way, because it is actually necessary and helpful, but it just won't get counted.
In BW clicking on the minimap counted as an action iirc. Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard. Also fix the 'minute' part of APM, make it count for 60 REAL seconds, because that is what a 'minute' IS.
The only thing this will be helpful for is for people like merz who abuse the system, and for Vibe as well, since he does jack all with his 500 APM lol and everyone knows it. The thing is is that 'everyone' already knows to ignore the obvious spammers because they are playing shitty despite having 300+ APM.
On August 26 2011 22:30 Geovu wrote:Blizzard should just stop screwing with crap that wasn't even invented by blizzard.
I agree with your first two paragraphs, especially the rerequoted part.
merz has always stated that it's more comfortable for him to keep his fingers moving at that pace. He's not "abusing the system". He is well aware that his game decision making and overarching strategies are his limiting reagents. I'm not really into bashing players for what you think they're thinking rather than what they are actually thinking.
Did they ever explain the APM change in the situation notes? I really think they need to at least say something. Some people don't care, others are upset, and no one really knows why it had to be changed.
On September 27 2011 00:32 MorroW wrote: so u dont get apm by spamming 2323232 but u get apm by spamming move command on the ground with ur scouting worker even if u click him to move to the same location?
to me the only logical way to count apm is by counting everything or excluding all sorts of spam, that includes move commands or attack commands that doesnt make a difference. for example clicking to move ur scouting overlord 50 times behind ur opponents natural in the same spot before he gets there should also count as spamming. but its too hard to make a realistic and 100% fair EAPM
so by that being said i think the apm bar should include all sorts of spamming. even if u just sit and do 232323 because thats not any worse than ordering your unit to move to same location/direction multiple times within 0.1 seconds
Exactly.
And Blizzard's system didn't include camera hotkeys and minimap clicks either pre-patch, and I think they should have. And I could be wrong but double tapping to center the group on the screen is not considered 2 actions but just 1 pre-patch (0 in this one?). Basically all camera movement methods were not considered APM, although they're most likely part of the most meaningful "Actions", and are the best numerical measure we have of "good multitasking".
Yeah, it's 1 action pre-patch. 1 action to select the group, and then the second tap that sends you camera over does not count for anything. In the current patch, if the selection is not preceded by other selections, then it still counts as an action. Otherwise, it does not.
On September 27 2011 10:10 Sina92 wrote: my apm is still around 90-110, just like before the patch. high master toss na / eu
That probably means you use one control group for your army
Also, I'd like to see what pros think about this. Many of the people that used the poll could possibly be in lower leagues so it's indifferent to them.
who honestly cares if someone spams away? the only thing this patch does is it gets rid of the actually "tapping" between different upgrades as well as queens which i do. which actually is worse than just including everything. i dont understand why blizz is messing with this, it really doesnt change much nor make apm a more effective way of calculating skill =(
the thing that is good about this is that you will be able to see ppl's real apm instead of the spaming apm, the only thing that will be annoying is that you will not be able to see a realistic in battle apm. if that makes since.
On September 27 2011 10:10 Sina92 wrote: my apm is still around 90-110, just like before the patch. high master toss na / eu
That probably means you use one control group for your army
Also, I'd like to see what pros think about this. Many of the people that used the poll could possibly be in lower leagues so it's indifferent to them.
The best players I know, Grand Masters and Top 40 Masters are only rolling about 60-70 average. You must be doing a lot of clicking you don't need to be. 5 or 6 clicks to move a unit to once place maybe? When controlling units and armies ya, APM spikes to 150- but that is far from the average.
tbh, i am a apm spammer but i want to really see how i compare to pros
Edit: I only apm spam because pros apm spam and I want to compare and contrast my skills with pros. Now I don't need to spam to compare and contrast but I will still spam anyways because of habit.
I don't understand the point of this change. There's got to be better things that Blizzard could apply themselves to change (replays with friends, goddammit...) that will actually affect the game rather than something as arbitrary as a number that bears with it no real meaning and I still do not believe that the new APM number means anything. It just fails to make any sense, but then again, that's Blizzard for ya...
On September 27 2011 10:10 Sina92 wrote: my apm is still around 90-110, just like before the patch. high master toss na / eu
That probably means you use one control group for your army
Also, I'd like to see what pros think about this. Many of the people that used the poll could possibly be in lower leagues so it's indifferent to them.
Thats not true. 90-110 is actually high now after the patch.
I'm mid masters NA as well and I average about 100 (i spammed a fuck ton before the patch, usually up at 250 average) and I have 5 army control groups, and use all my other control groups too. I'll idle at about 60 or 70 now but when im in a battle its usually up at 250 still, no change there.
On September 27 2011 10:10 Sina92 wrote: my apm is still around 90-110, just like before the patch. high master toss na / eu
That probably means you use one control group for your army
Also, I'd like to see what pros think about this. Many of the people that used the poll could possibly be in lower leagues so it's indifferent to them.
I feel like the only people who really care about APM are in lower leagues. I know that I used to care about it, but since I've improved I have since completely forgotten about APM and only look at it occasionally when trying to analyze my replays. Obviously I don't speak from experience or actual knowledge, but I doubt that pros actually take the time to look at their APM and then say "Oh man, my APM is totally fifty lower than what I want it to be." Rather, they would probably watch a replay and say "Oh man, my army control is not at the level I want it to be" or "Oh man, my macro was really terrible here," then they improve upon those areas and in turn it may raise their APM.
camera hotkeys and minimap left-clicking weren't considered part of the measurement in bwchart either. i have no clue, but i think it's also hard to measure because it's comparable to left clicking something that can't be selected... like a random piece of terrain
since some players can get into the habit of comparing themselves to others, a lot of players will likely care less about this stat for this season. EAPM in bw was still measured more accurately than what i think they were trying to do with this patch change.
who knows, haha
On September 27 2011 10:10 The Final Boss wrote: ...I feel like the only people who really care about APM are in lower leagues...
i think that depends also. for 1v1 players, maybe. lower league team-match players barely even think about looking at their own replays, that much i can tell you--such that team players blame their teammate's bad build or control, and a 1v1 player will blame luckiness or the race they're playing against. at a certain point, a player comes away from blaming other people to saddle down and improve on their own play instead... yet i know some players who take years to do so.
On September 23 2011 00:56 momonami5 wrote: seems like it just change that beginning type of apm spam hehe dunno why ppl proud of apm high from that then in battle its like 50 apm.
Yes. Pre-1.40, even among pros I noticed weird APM shifts. That is, the lesser/losing players' APMs tend to be ridiculously high at the beginning (let's say 400), then once the supply goes up and battles start occuring, their APMs go down (below 150). (Lots of foreigner pros)
Now with 1.40, I see the better/winning players' APMs sharply increasing under high pressure and very multitask-heavy circumstances. (300+) So far I've seen MKP and DRG's APMs being that way.
Don't tell me those pros are spamming right clicks. (rofl) They are simply performing more actions, which is reflected in their APMs.
Now, assuming the above (we will certainly see more and more evidence), can we agree this system is at least more objective?
Edit: On a second thought, MKP might be spamming right click quite a bit for his marine splitting. XD But those are legit, game-deciding, and visible on-screen spams. (i.e. verifiable by 3rd person)
This patch has made it harder for me to tell whether or not I am actually keeping on top of everything. Before the patch I used to have ~250 APM. I'd usually speed through a replay to see if my APM was around 250, and I'd know that I was on top of everything if that was the case. If I had much lower APM, I'd know that I skimped on macro/unit control/whatever.
In the last game I played (in the new patch), I had 93 APM. I cannot tell whether or not this is really bad, so due to the change I now have to disregard APM and sit through every replay and see for myself if I kept on top of everything.
Basically, changing how APM works "forced" me into sinking my time into watching replays instead of playing games. I do not like this change at all.
Do you guys know of any programs that tell you your actual APM, and not just Blizzard's arbitrarily decided "APM" measurement?
On September 27 2011 18:08 I_PROTOSSED_MY_HW wrote: This patch has made it harder for me to tell whether or not I am actually keeping on top of everything. Before the patch I used to have ~250 APM. I'd usually speed through a replay to see if my APM was around 250, and I'd know that I was on top of everything if that was the case. If I had much lower APM, I'd know that I skimped on macro/unit control/whatever.
In the last game I played (in the new patch), I had 93 APM. I cannot tell whether or not this is really bad, so due to the change I now have to disregard APM and sit through every replay and see for myself if I kept on top of everything.
Basically, changing how APM works "forced" me into sinking my time into watching replays instead of playing games. I do not like this change at all.
Do you guys know of any programs that tell you your actual APM, and not just Blizzard's arbitrarily decided "APM" measurement?
SC2 gears will show you your in game APM and real time APM. You can get it from here:
It's a pain though how blizzard changed the APM. It was always fun to see how much I could spam at the start. But I do agree it was a useful tool to see how well I was playing because I do notice a big difference between when I played badly at 70 APM compared to 100 + APM pre 1.4.
Now its a meaningless number that doesn't make sense and I just use SC2 gears to gauge actual APM because in game APM is unreliable.
On September 23 2011 00:56 momonami5 wrote: seems like it just change that beginning type of apm spam hehe dunno why ppl proud of apm high from that then in battle its like 50 apm.
Yes. Pre-1.40, even among pros I noticed weird APM shifts. That is, the lesser/losing players' APMs tend to be ridiculously high at the beginning (let's say 400), then once the supply goes up and battles start occuring, their APMs go down (below 150). (Lots of foreigner pros)
Now with 1.40, I see the better/winning players' APMs sharply increasing under high pressure and very multitask-heavy circumstances. (300+) So far I've seen MKP and DRG's APMs being that way.
Don't tell me those pros are spamming right clicks. (rofl) They are simply performing more actions, which is reflected in their APMs.
Now, assuming the above (we will certainly see more and more evidence), can we agree this system is at least more objective?
Edit: On a second thought, MKP might be spamming right click quite a bit for his marine splitting. XD But those are legit, game-deciding, and visible on-screen spams. (i.e. verifiable by 3rd person)
I agree with most of this. I see that the main argument against the new APM calculation is that certain actions taken by players is not "spamming," and that these count as actions too because a player will perform them more often when they're playing better.
But I think we should take a step back and analyze what your goals are as a player, and what function tapping performs.
If you were to be the perfect player, you would have perfect macro with your build; that is, you would always produce with the maximum efficiency that the strategy you're implemented has allowed for. If your build was one barracks all game long, and that one barracks produced a marine every 15 seconds over the course of a 10 min game, you would have produced a marine 40 times. You would have selected your barracks 40 times, and 80 overall APM would have gone towards marine production.
A player that has difficulty remembering when to produce marines or if they were producing one in the first place (amidst the chaos, horrible memory, horrible timing, etc) would probably randomly tap his barracks to look at it a few times. This means that a player that's worse at remembering to do stuff will have higher APM. The player that's better at remembering will have lower APM. Why? Because in the end they're accomplishing the same goals. Macrowise they're doing the same thing.
Tapping is a crutch. Some might argue that it's a necessary one, and that might be true for a while. But that doesn't change what tapping accomplishes. Which is absolutely nothing unless you don't have perfect timings.
Perfection in this game is what we're trying to reach. What this current APM calculation does is show us how much is being done in game. Yes, this is not how much YOU are doing. But this is irrelevant to the game. What matters is how much you get done, not how inefficient you are at doing the same thing your opponent is. If a zerg double taps his queens twice in an injection cycle, that's wasted time that zerg could be using to scout, attack, micro, etc. A better zerg will be accomplishing more and double tapping at the exact moment they need to inject.
Remember when the game first came out and everyone had shitty injects? Now it's pretty normal for my lower leagued friends to have perfect injects up until at least the 12 min mark. Pros are obviously way better.
This APM indication is not punishing anyone unless you care about a statistic that actually shows how inefficient you are. The argument that multiple clicking raises this APM is silly, because you know that not only is this difficult to implement but mass clicking has its own punishment. You can only click on your screen. Mass clicking is a waste of time and vision (not factoring in minimap vision here, it's sometimes the only thing needed, other times it's not useful - scouting etc).
So yes, now you see players with decent macro have APM closer to pros, and you have people with subpar macro drop significantly in APM. You have players who have decent macro but did a lot of double, triple, infinite checking to keep that up have APM similar to someone with decent timings and equivalent macro.
On September 23 2011 00:56 momonami5 wrote: seems like it just change that beginning type of apm spam hehe dunno why ppl proud of apm high from that then in battle its like 50 apm.
Yes. Pre-1.40, even among pros I noticed weird APM shifts. That is, the lesser/losing players' APMs tend to be ridiculously high at the beginning (let's say 400), then once the supply goes up and battles start occuring, their APMs go down (below 150). (Lots of foreigner pros)
Now with 1.40, I see the better/winning players' APMs sharply increasing under high pressure and very multitask-heavy circumstances. (300+) So far I've seen MKP and DRG's APMs being that way.
Don't tell me those pros are spamming right clicks. (rofl) They are simply performing more actions, which is reflected in their APMs.
Now, assuming the above (we will certainly see more and more evidence), can we agree this system is at least more objective?
Edit: On a second thought, MKP might be spamming right click quite a bit for his marine splitting. XD But those are legit, game-deciding, and visible on-screen spams. (i.e. verifiable by 3rd person)
I agree with most of this. I see that the main argument against the new APM calculation is that certain actions taken by players is not "spamming," and that these count as actions too because a player will perform them more often when they're playing better.
But I think we should take a step back and analyze what your goals are as a player, and what function tapping performs.
If you were to be the perfect player, you would have perfect macro with your build; that is, you would always produce with the maximum efficiency that the strategy you're implemented has allowed for. If your build was one barracks all game long, and that one barracks produced a marine every 15 seconds over the course of a 10 min game, you would have produced a marine 40 times. You would have selected your barracks 40 times, and 80 overall APM would have gone towards marine production.
A player that has difficulty remembering when to produce marines or if they were producing one in the first place (amidst the chaos, horrible memory, horrible timing, etc) would probably randomly tap his barracks to look at it a few times. This means that a player that's worse at remembering to do stuff will have higher APM. The player that's better at remembering will have lower APM. Why? Because in the end they're accomplishing the same goals. Macrowise they're doing the same thing.
Tapping is a crutch. Some might argue that it's a necessary one, and that might be true for a while. But that doesn't change what tapping accomplishes. Which is absolutely nothing unless you don't have perfect timings.
Perfection in this game is what we're trying to reach. What this current APM calculation does is show us how much is being done in game. Yes, this is not how much YOU are doing. But this is irrelevant to the game. What matters is how much you get done, not how inefficient you are at doing the same thing your opponent is. If a zerg double taps his queens twice in an injection cycle, that's wasted time that zerg could be using to scout, attack, micro, etc. A better zerg will be accomplishing more and double tapping at the exact moment they need to inject.
Remember when the game first came out and everyone had shitty injects? Now it's pretty normal for my lower leagued friends to have perfect injects up until at least the 12 min mark. Pros are obviously way better.
This APM indication is not punishing anyone unless you care about a statistic that actually shows how inefficient you are. The argument that multiple clicking raises this APM is silly, because you know that not only is this difficult to implement but mass clicking has its own punishment. You can only click on your screen. Mass clicking is a waste of time and vision (not factoring in minimap vision here, it's sometimes the only thing needed, other times it's not useful - scouting etc).
So yes, now you see players with decent macro have APM closer to pros, and you have people with subpar macro drop significantly in APM. You have players who have decent macro but did a lot of double, triple, infinite checking to keep that up have APM similar to someone with decent timings and equivalent macro.
I don't see how this is a bad thing.
Finally someone gets it. Thank god I thought I was alone in this and felt like talking to brick walls. My point of view is explained in page 37 of this thread. I exampled the following.
- player A does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 10 cycling through the CCs - player B does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and it takes her/him avg. 5 cycling through the CCs - player C does manage constant SCV production from 3 CCs and she/he doesn't need to cycle around because s/he is simply so well trained to the point that s/he never forgets it without even looking at CCs.
Pre-1.40, Player A did 30 actions. B did 15, and C did 3. The result is the same for all -> 3 SCVs. And I noted that Player C might be able to do other actions (unit production, scouting, micro, etc.) while player A/B spend their time on SCV production. As ZarMulix understands correctly, the 1.40 APM measures how many things you get done, not how you get things done. And over time, it has a potential to be a more objective measure of multitasking because it removes subjectivity (tapping) from APM calculation.
On September 23 2011 00:56 momonami5 wrote: seems like it just change that beginning type of apm spam hehe dunno why ppl proud of apm high from that then in battle its like 50 apm.
Yes. Pre-1.40, even among pros I noticed weird APM shifts. That is, the lesser/losing players' APMs tend to be ridiculously high at the beginning (let's say 400), then once the supply goes up and battles start occuring, their APMs go down (below 150). (Lots of foreigner pros)
Now with 1.40, I see the better/winning players' APMs sharply increasing under high pressure and very multitask-heavy circumstances. (300+) So far I've seen MKP and DRG's APMs being that way.
Don't tell me those pros are spamming right clicks. (rofl) They are simply performing more actions, which is reflected in their APMs.
Now, assuming the above (we will certainly see more and more evidence), can we agree this system is at least more objective?
Edit: On a second thought, MKP might be spamming right click quite a bit for his marine splitting. XD But those are legit, game-deciding, and visible on-screen spams. (i.e. verifiable by 3rd person)
I agree with most of this. I see that the main argument against the new APM calculation is that certain actions taken by players is not "spamming," and that these count as actions too because a player will perform them more often when they're playing better.
But I think we should take a step back and analyze what your goals are as a player, and what function tapping performs.
If you were to be the perfect player, you would have perfect macro with your build; that is, you would always produce with the maximum efficiency that the strategy you're implemented has allowed for. If your build was one barracks all game long, and that one barracks produced a marine every 15 seconds over the course of a 10 min game, you would have produced a marine 40 times. You would have selected your barracks 40 times, and 80 overall APM would have gone towards marine production.
A player that has difficulty remembering when to produce marines or if they were producing one in the first place (amidst the chaos, horrible memory, horrible timing, etc) would probably randomly tap his barracks to look at it a few times. This means that a player that's worse at remembering to do stuff will have higher APM. The player that's better at remembering will have lower APM. Why? Because in the end they're accomplishing the same goals. Macrowise they're doing the same thing.
Tapping is a crutch. Some might argue that it's a necessary one, and that might be true for a while. But that doesn't change what tapping accomplishes. Which is absolutely nothing unless you don't have perfect timings.
Perfection in this game is what we're trying to reach. What this current APM calculation does is show us how much is being done in game. Yes, this is not how much YOU are doing. But this is irrelevant to the game. What matters is how much you get done, not how inefficient you are at doing the same thing your opponent is. If a zerg double taps his queens twice in an injection cycle, that's wasted time that zerg could be using to scout, attack, micro, etc. A better zerg will be accomplishing more and double tapping at the exact moment they need to inject.
Remember when the game first came out and everyone had shitty injects? Now it's pretty normal for my lower leagued friends to have perfect injects up until at least the 12 min mark. Pros are obviously way better.
This APM indication is not punishing anyone unless you care about a statistic that actually shows how inefficient you are. The argument that multiple clicking raises this APM is silly, because you know that not only is this difficult to implement but mass clicking has its own punishment. You can only click on your screen. Mass clicking is a waste of time and vision (not factoring in minimap vision here, it's sometimes the only thing needed, other times it's not useful - scouting etc).
So yes, now you see players with decent macro have APM closer to pros, and you have people with subpar macro drop significantly in APM. You have players who have decent macro but did a lot of double, triple, infinite checking to keep that up have APM similar to someone with decent timings and equivalent macro.
I don't see how this is a bad thing.
In a perfect world, we'd all have 10 different clocks working in our heads to perfectly remember different timing. Unfortunately, most of us do not. It's careless to not be checking and re-checking different production buildings.
For example by 8 minutes, if I've fast expanded with Terran, I'll have at least 2 orbitals, some barracks, a factory, and possibly a star port. Making sure the production cycles of all those buildings works optimally and deciding when is the right time to add on more requires constant tabbing between them. You might que up a couple scvs to make sure worker production continues, then unque to build 2 barracks. At the very least, manually clicking orbitals, instead of managing them on a control group is one mico-management action which helps a lot (that's still counted anyway). Otherwise, you'll go through periods when you're only making 1 scv.
The point of the matter is that there are a lot of useful actions which blizzard has deemed useless. It's just annoying they pull a fast one like this without consulting with the community.
On September 27 2011 10:10 Sina92 wrote: my apm is still around 90-110, just like before the patch. high master toss na / eu
That probably means you use one control group for your army
Also, I'd like to see what pros think about this. Many of the people that used the poll could possibly be in lower leagues so it's indifferent to them.
Last night's SOTG seemed to suggest that most of the pros really hate this change. At least there was an unanimous consensus among Inc, Tyler, Day9, and Artosis.
On September 27 2011 10:10 Sina92 wrote: my apm is still around 90-110, just like before the patch. high master toss na / eu
That probably means you use one control group for your army
Also, I'd like to see what pros think about this. Many of the people that used the poll could possibly be in lower leagues so it's indifferent to them.
Last night's SOTG seemed to suggest that most of the pros really hate this change. At least there was an unanimous consensus among Inc, Tyler, Day9, and Artosis.
Anyone coming from a BW background (myself included) finds this change to APM pretty ridiculous. Anyone that knows what APM stands for should find this change ridiculous (as if it wasn't ridiculous enough in its previous adaptation).
APM stands for Actions per Minute. If you remove actions or filter actions from that calculation, it is no longer an accurate measure of APM. In addition, it is a per Minute calculation, something that is defined by the entire world, yet for some reason APM is based on some silly Blizzard minute due to the way they programmed the clock to work in 'Normal' mode which no one seriously plays at anyways. I really don't understand why Blizzard feels it is necessary to stick their fingers into what is already clearly defined in the acronym itself - "APM = Actions Per Minute".
If they want to do what they are doing, they can create some other measure, 'EAPM' or 'Blizzard APM' or something along those lines where they try to filter stuff out but to go and change an APM standard that's been in place since BW... it's just silly.
On September 29 2011 04:27 arsenic wrote: APM stands for Actions per Minute. If you remove actions or filter actions from that calculation, it is no longer an accurate measure of APM. In addition, it is a per Minute calculation, something that is defined by the entire world, yet for some reason APM is based on some silly Blizzard minute due to the way they programmed the clock to work in 'Normal' mode which no one seriously plays at anyways. I really don't understand why Blizzard feels it is necessary to stick their fingers into what is already clearly defined in the acronym itself - "APM = Actions Per Minute".
If they want to do what they are doing, they can create some other measure, 'EAPM' or 'Blizzard APM' or something along those lines where they try to filter stuff out but to go and change an APM standard that's been in place since BW... it's just silly.
One can say that the BW standard was silly in the first place. Just because something existed before in a certain way doesn't mean that something better doesn't exist. As you may know, EAPM was created for BW precisely because people felt it was a pretty meaningless statistic. A very good argument against an unfiltered APM is that it's not indicative of any actual motor skills or gaming skills. You can hold a hotkey down and get 1000 APM. You can spam a few buttons and get 600 APM. You can be a terrible overall player and still do it effectively. Adding filters to the actions recorded as a statistic puts much more merit to the actual statistic.
I'm not saying that a filtered APM system is overall the best way to go about things, but you certainly shouldn't be so ignorant about stuff. If EAPM is more effective than APM, there isn't much point in including the APM. Blizzard likes to keeps stats/controls/etc. simple (so much so that I find it problematic), so it's no surprise that they would just change one value to have more meaning as opposed to adding a new one.
On September 29 2011 04:27 arsenic wrote: APM stands for Actions per Minute. If you remove actions or filter actions from that calculation, it is no longer an accurate measure of APM. In addition, it is a per Minute calculation, something that is defined by the entire world, yet for some reason APM is based on some silly Blizzard minute due to the way they programmed the clock to work in 'Normal' mode which no one seriously plays at anyways. I really don't understand why Blizzard feels it is necessary to stick their fingers into what is already clearly defined in the acronym itself - "APM = Actions Per Minute".
If they want to do what they are doing, they can create some other measure, 'EAPM' or 'Blizzard APM' or something along those lines where they try to filter stuff out but to go and change an APM standard that's been in place since BW... it's just silly.
One can say that the BW standard was silly in the first place. Just because something existed before in a certain way doesn't mean that something better doesn't exist. As you may know, EAPM was created for BW precisely because people felt it was a pretty meaningless statistic. A very good argument against an unfiltered APM is that it's not indicative of any actual motor skills or gaming skills. You can hold a hotkey down and get 1000 APM. You can spam a few buttons and get 600 APM. You can be a terrible overall player and still do it effectively. Adding filters to the actions recorded as a statistic puts much more merit to the actual statistic.
I'm not saying that a filtered APM system is overall the best way to go about things, but you certainly shouldn't be so ignorant about stuff. If EAPM is more effective than APM, there isn't much point in including the APM. Blizzard likes to keeps stats/controls/etc. simple (so much so that I find it problematic), so it's no surprise that they would just change one value to have more meaning as opposed to adding a new one.
Somehow I knew that someone would latch on to the fact that I mentioned BW and respond by saying that we shouldn't want it one way just because BW was that way.
My real argument is that Actions Per Minute is a well defined term. Blizzard shouldn't tweak it and pretend that it's the same thing. If they want their own metric or some metric they believe to be more "accurate" then they should call it something else.
On September 27 2011 10:10 The Final Boss wrote: ...I feel like the only people who really care about APM are in lower leagues...
i think that depends also. for 1v1 players, maybe. lower league team-match players barely even think about looking at their own replays, that much i can tell you--such that team players blame their teammate's bad build or control, and a 1v1 player will blame luckiness or the race they're playing against. at a certain point, a player comes away from blaming other people to saddle down and improve on their own play instead... yet i know some players who take years to do so.
I understand what you're saying, but it has nothing to do with APM. APM is not a gauge of skill or ability. If your APM is too low, it will limit what you are capable of doing, but just because your APM is high doesn't mean that you will be everything that your APM is capable of doing. The point still stands, higher level players/pros don't really look at their APM as how well they're doing. It may fluctuate as they get better, but they set goals for "I need to macro better" as opposed to "I need to get my APM to 200 for the whole game."
On September 27 2011 10:10 Sina92 wrote: my apm is still around 90-110, just like before the patch. high master toss na / eu
That probably means you use one control group for your army
Also, I'd like to see what pros think about this. Many of the people that used the poll could possibly be in lower leagues so it's indifferent to them.
Last night's SOTG seemed to suggest that most of the pros really hate this change. At least there was an unanimous consensus among Inc, Tyler, Day9, and Artosis.
Do you think MVP, Nestea, MC, and the like will care about this change like those SOTG folks do?
I just noticed again how unbelievable bad this measurement is. :D I was rewatching a replay where I had mass ghosts and was mass sniping all over the place. While that was happening the APM literally showed zero. Gratz Blizzard. =)
I wish they would just change it to BEAPM. Blizzards effective actions per minute.
APM is meaningless now in-game. APM is simply actions per minute, anything else is some made up number that has a different more specific definition. The calculation for actual APM should be in the game and nothing else unless the community decides it wants to create some fun type of programs to filter out redundant spamming, etc.
So wait... they're not reverting the old change, but they're making some way that SC2Gears can get our old APM anyway? That's good I guess, but I wish they'd just put it back to straight APM.
On September 27 2011 23:40 ZarMulix wrote: If you were to be the perfect player, you would have perfect macro with your build; that is, you would always produce with the maximum efficiency that the strategy you're implemented has allowed for. If your build was one barracks all game long, and that one barracks produced a marine every 15 seconds over the course of a 10 min game, you would have produced a marine 40 times. You would have selected your barracks 40 times, and 80 overall APM would have gone towards marine production.
You'd be making 4 marines per minute, at 2 actions per marine and actually, you could some cases it count as 3 actions, if you're controlling an army or moving a specific unit, and you go right back to controlling that unit after making the marine then the count is select barracks - make marine - select unit(s). You'd count the 3rd action because you wouldn't have to re-select your units if you didn't have to make the marine. But for simplicity, we'll agree on 8 APM.
80 actions would be dedicated to marine production, but over a 10 minute game, that's 8 per minute.
I remember watching a replay and noticing my apm was lower than usual. But it makes sense now, since I did not see the change till this thread. I will admit to it, I am an apm spammer. I was this way during broodwar thanks to IcCup (now I get bored if not doing anything).
I know there is the importance of how the apm is being used more so than how much. But when I look at apm, I want to make sure I am actually doing something. I get why Blizzard did the change, but I am not a fan of it. I think they should just allow us to choose how our apm is shown based on a variety of perimeters. Like, one would show all, and at the other spectrum would be this change. Of curse, there would be middle area.
i honestly dont care, but its kind of stupid like said before, becase its no longer APM. APM is all action per minute imo even when spammed. so its totally messed up now. but
I really don't care, APM was never much of a deal, almost everything else you can observe in games like production, units, etc is way more telling. This change made it even more non-saying, as it is really not actions per minute. I don't know why blizzard pays guys wasting their time thinking how to elaborate effective APM and stuff. There are things that customers really don't worry about (or maybe I am wrong as this thread has 40 pages? dunno)
I hated the APM tab before, but atleast you could times 1.4x it. There should be the normal Actions per Actual Minutes. And then this new one aswell, as i think it might add some value to the game later. Ppl like axslav that has a low apm, but very important apm, will be scaled higher, in terms of, if you counted the apm as a skill factor.
On November 16 2011 19:58 Latty wrote: i honestly dont care, but its kind of stupid like said before, becase its no longer APM. APM is all action per minute imo even when spammed. so its totally messed up now. but
The questions is what is an "action"? Blizzard apparently means "something a player does, that has effect in the game" while a lot of people use "something I do with my mouse or keyboard"... The second definition is easier to measure but way more arbitrary. If spam selecting workers counts as actions, why doesn't say "moving the mouse" in general count as action? Or scrolling with the window border? etc.
On November 16 2011 19:58 Latty wrote: i honestly dont care, but its kind of stupid like said before, becase its no longer APM. APM is all action per minute imo even when spammed. so its totally messed up now. but
The questions is what is an "action"? Blizzard apparently means "something a player does, that has effect in the game" while a lot of people use "something I do with my mouse or keyboard"... The second definition is easier to measure but way more arbitrary. If spam selecting workers counts as actions, why doesn't say "moving the mouse" in general count as action? Or scrolling with the window border? etc.
That is measuring two different things. I mean, if I am switching between let us say, my rax, my CC's, and my two or three control groups of units. I would like to think that it would be influencing the apm since it helps illustrate that I am not sitting on my are twirling my thumbs and eating a bagel.
Like I have said before, apm for myself has always been a means of forcing myself and viewing others as just how active they were. it no longer shows the full story now so more difficult to grasp the situation.
Lastly, why nnot have it back the way it use to be? Seems like the general consensus of this thread is that; people either dislike the change or they do not care. I say, why not let the people who look at apm (of course not the most important tool) and let them choose how it is, giving us choices. And those who do not care or see no use of apm can well, bugger off since it does not effect them (saying in a kind voice of course).
EPT
. otherwise i honestly dont give a crap about apm at all
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IDuXG.jpg?tti)
(Lots of foreigner pros)
