On August 13 2011 23:07 tendence wrote: I think the key to some of those units to being used more isn't buffing at all.
Some of the mentioned units are already crazy strong, and I think their time will come.
But high tier units aren't easy to implement to your standard games, and thats fine like this... thats why they are high tier.
I think buffing them would be a huge misstake, ergo I expect Blizzard that they will buff them very soon
well, blizz has the PTR. I asked myself that quite often now: why don't they just throw out something completely different stuff and test it on the PTR? If there is a patch on the PTR everyone sees that patch as the next patch that will be carried over to the usual server but in my opinion the test realm should be for testing stuff. Like for example just give hydras for example a huge buff, wait a month (or even longer) and watch what happens. Zerg win-rate will raise first but probably it will be balanced when the other races figured out what to do against the "new" unit and you gave zerg a new strategy. If it won't be balanced after a few month you can still just revoke the change.
TL;DR: Blizz should to use their PTR as a TEST realm
I think many units are being under-used because people havnt truly figured out how to use them.
The archon is an exelent example of this. Not a long time ago people would laugh at the archon, saying it's a bad unit. Now we see the archon all the time.
If anyone watched EG masters we saw mouz.ThorZaIN do some amazing ghost-play against CoL.CatZ. People might not have thought ghosts could have been used that way.. like mass sniping.
What I'm trying to say that it depends alot on how the metagame evolves. I think units such as the Raven and the Warpprism will be much more common once the metagames evolves. It might take a very long time.
Saying a unit is "too costy for their value" might be true. It might also be a direct result of the metagame, or simply wrong use of the unit. Look at the infestor. Look at how people are using the unit now, compared to some months ago. Infested terrans was not a spell people thought about using, and it was considered a waste of energy to use that spell. Now it's being used just as much as the fungal growth, if not more. Exploring that infested terrans are useful have led to the infestor being a more cost-efficient unit.
On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote: There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
This does not make sense and that's why these threads are pointless. Ultralisks and Hydralisks shitty units? Come on.
Ultralisk worst T3 unit in the game, period. Hydralisks 80 hp, unusable off creep and needs upgrade to have same range as stalker.
Ultra is by far not the worst T3 unit.. have you not seen BCs? Or the mothership? Ultra is one of the best when used in the right comp
On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote: There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
This does not make sense and that's why these threads are pointless. Ultralisks and Hydralisks shitty units? Come on.
Ultralisk worst T3 unit in the game, period. Hydralisks 80 hp, unusable off creep and needs upgrade to have same range as stalker.
Ultra is by far not the worst T3 unit.. have you not seen BCs? Or the mothership? Ultra is one of the best when used in the right comp
Mothership doesn't count into the T3 fighting units. There are two T3 units for each race, Carrier Colossi, BC Thor, Ultra Brood Lord. Mothership has some cool uses but I wouldn't put it in the list because it's not a fighting and just a bonus on the side. BC's are fucking great! Ultras ain't "BAD" but they're bad considering tech, cost and supply when you also compare to other T3 of other races.
On August 13 2011 23:27 CubY wrote: actually i forgot to mention the hydra. That is a unit of that sort aswell. But it was used very oftne in the past and gets more and more unused atm. So it is the other way around.
It was used a lot in the past because it was believed that there was no better alternative, now there are. It also gets hard countered by colossus and storms and is slow off creep.
On August 14 2011 00:59 Volka wrote: Ultras and Hydras are really good units... you just have to know when and how to use them.
I think the Carrier is also a good unit, but it could use a "psycological buff" (like blue flame Hellions with that icon patch change). Specifically, make the interceptors build automatically...
Please enlighten us zerg players when to use them... probably less than 5 situations, thats not a good unit. Thats a bad unit that has its uses in very specific situation where going the other techroute is still more safe a lot of the time...
On August 14 2011 01:15 Ajaco92 wrote: I think many units are being under-used because people havnt truly figured out how to use them.
The archon is an exelent example of this. Not a long time ago people would laugh at the archon, saying it's a bad unit. Now we see the archon all the time.
If anyone watched EG masters we saw mouz.ThorZaIN do some amazing ghost-play against CoL.CatZ. People might not have thought ghosts could have been used that way.. like mass sniping.
What I'm trying to say that it depends alot on how the metagame evolves. I think units such as the Raven and the Warpprism will be much more common once the metagames evolves. It might take a very long time.
Saying a unit is "too costy for their value" might be true. It might also be a direct result of the metagame, or simply wrong use of the unit. Look at the infestor. Look at how people are using the unit now, compared to some months ago. Infested terrans was not a spell people thought about using, and it was considered a waste of energy to use that spell. Now it's being used just as much as the fungal growth, if not more. Exploring that infested terrans are useful have led to the infestor being a more cost-efficient unit.
Um, the archon was a bad unit, that's why it was buffed. It was what you made when you used up your storms and wanted something to tank some shots for a second.
ultras are okay. great with ling/bane/infestor against protoss, just chews through deathball. Much better than staying on hatch/lair tech and losing 200/200 for 40.
Ultras are good, just overshadowed by broodlords in most situations. Hydras are actually really terrible, mostly because they lose a ton of dps due to their projectile attacks. Giving hydras instant hit (like marines) would improve them hugely, as it comes with smart fire. Watch for reference:
(units have same stats, but mariens have instant hit, hydras projectiles)
omg so much "metagame" T-T yeah i totally think they should buff the scout.
what kind of game do you want where every unit is used the same amount? I've seen ravens and ultralisks enough and they do their job well. Everything is fine. Even carriers, the must unused unit of all. It's exactly how its supposed to be.
Carriers are really good in PvT, but you need like 4+ bases to get a decent production of them up. You also need to have quite an advantage to be able to tech switch into them without dying to the terran. That's why you dont see them used often in progames.
On August 13 2011 23:07 tendence wrote: I think the key to some of those units to being used more isn't buffing at all.
Some of the mentioned units are already crazy strong, and I think their time will come.
But high tier units aren't easy to implement to your standard games, and thats fine like this... thats why they are high tier.
I think buffing them would be a huge misstake, ergo I expect Blizzard that they will buff them very soon
well, blizz has the PTR. I asked myself that quite often now: why don't they just throw out something completely different stuff and test it on the PTR? If there is a patch on the PTR everyone sees that patch as the next patch that will be carried over to the usual server but in my opinion the test realm should be for testing stuff. Like for example just give hydras for example a huge buff, wait a month (or even longer) and watch what happens. Zerg win-rate will raise first but probably it will be balanced when the other races figured out what to do against the "new" unit and you gave zerg a new strategy. If it won't be balanced after a few month you can still just revoke the change.
TL;DR: Blizz should to use their PTR as a TEST realm
The problem is that the people who test these balance changes aren't progamers, and will usually win or lose a lot less based on unit balances
On August 14 2011 01:18 BuZZ123 wrote: Lol. So 5 3 ultralisks are bad now? I did not get the memo.
There was a thread a while back that gave a strong argument that ultras were the worse unit you could ever get. They have a lower dps to cost ratio than workers against unarmoured units, one of the worst hp to cost ratios( it beats stuff like colossus and ravens), and other stuff like that.
I think it's funny that people compare catching someone off-guard to situational. Ya you could argue they're the same but they're not. 2 base protoss vs maybe like a 3 base muta. Archon's would be a situational unit. Sending dt's to an expansion to try and take it out because they have no defense is trying to catch him unaware while another fight is happening or simply denying the expo isn't really situational IMO(ya you could say well it's situational because you're trying to deny bases, but that's more twisting words than actually proving a point..). Reaper harass is just rofl. That's no where near a situational unit. It's a poor opening tech choice that can leave you very uncomfortable if the enemy zerg has a queen, and most maps don't accommodate reaper play. The fact that they even have this unit in the game with the current blue flame hellion love on is silly. I think Blizzard is trying balance the game 1 hit point at a time and I think it's the wrong way of doing so.
To the OP, the Carrier is very, very strong, and much like the muta, after you get a few in your circle, it's almost gg. I do think Ultralisks suck and there's almost no point in building them, but whatever
On August 14 2011 01:18 BuZZ123 wrote: Lol. So 5 3 ultralisks are bad now? I did not get the memo.
There was a thread a while back that gave a strong argument that ultras were the worse unit you could ever get. They have a lower dps to cost ratio than workers against unarmoured units, one of the worst hp to cost ratios( it beats stuff like colossus and ravens), and other stuff like that.
It's just a really bad unit.
While it's not very cost effective, it's very supply effective (something that almost all other zerg units lack). 200 supply of roach hydra might beat most things of the same cost, but fail vs about any army of the same supply. 200 Supply of ultralisk infestor on the other hand....
It could just do with meta-game. IMO I see ravens plenty, and I think they're quite good, it just has to be used more, and so far there isn't a real metagame revolving around it. The only real unit I feel needs a change is ultra's and hydra's. Ultras need to be smaller and/or faster. And hydra's need to have a bit more survivability. There's no way in hell a bunch of blink stalkers should be able to take on an equivalent sized hydra army, but that's just how it is. With that being said, I still feel there's a place for hydras and ultras still, even without the buffs I'm suggesting.
EPT
