On August 13 2011 23:07 tendence wrote: I think the key to some of those units to being used more isn't buffing at all.
Some of the mentioned units are already crazy strong, and I think their time will come.
But high tier units aren't easy to implement to your standard games, and thats fine like this... thats why they are high tier.
I think buffing them would be a huge misstake, ergo I expect Blizzard that they will buff them very soon
well, blizz has the PTR. I asked myself that quite often now: why don't they just throw out something completely different stuff and test it on the PTR? If there is a patch on the PTR everyone sees that patch as the next patch that will be carried over to the usual server but in my opinion the test realm should be for testing stuff. Like for example just give hydras for example a huge buff, wait a month (or even longer) and watch what happens. Zerg win-rate will raise first but probably it will be balanced when the other races figured out what to do against the "new" unit and you gave zerg a new strategy. If it won't be balanced after a few month you can still just revoke the change.
TL;DR: Blizz should to use their PTR as a TEST realm
Yeah, protoss will learn to make more colossus, and terrans will learn to make more blueflame hellions. Then winrates will go back to original.
Ultras are crazy against Toss and they look almost imbalance. Zerg can tech switch almost instantly, it is always so hard to churn out immortals before 3 to 4 ultras completely destroy my blink stalkers colossus ball. Use them and you will know.
Reapers: Great for early scouting, although only useful early on, it has its place Raven: Only mobile terran detection, PDDs are great in a lot of situations, although expensive this unit definitely has its place in the terran arsenal Carrier: Although expensive, this unit is nigh unstoppable when massed, and although really only useful in the super late game, they are the most supply effective unit for protoss Mothership: Best way to spend 8 supply in the game unless your opponent decided to go mass vikings/corruptors. Battlecruiser: Has its place in TvT Ultralisk: Anyone who said this unit is useless is clueless. While not a powerhouse, it's extremely good in all matchups (even ZvZ) Hydralisk: Good against air, the only reason this unit is bad is because air is, in general, underused aside from harassment, but it is still the best zerg anti-air unit.
IMO the hydra is one of the most well balanced units in the game. Its a single unit counter to every toss unit except colossus and HT with storm and yet its speed keeps it from being OP. And the best part? IT ISN'T SLOW! The hydra has the same move speed as zealots/sentries/marine/marauder when OFF creep. So basically its a unit with a dynamic very similar to broodlords off creep (moving out is a commitment to action) but maintains zerg mobility on creep. I wish more units had this kind of consideration.
On August 14 2011 01:18 BuZZ123 wrote: Lol. So 5 3 ultralisks are bad now? I did not get the memo.
There was a thread a while back that gave a strong argument that ultras were the worse unit you could ever get. They have a lower dps to cost ratio than workers against unarmoured units, one of the worst hp to cost ratios( it beats stuff like colossus and ravens), and other stuff like that.
It's just a really bad unit.
While it's not very cost effective, it's very supply effective (something that almost all other zerg units lack). 200 supply of roach hydra might beat most things of the same cost, but fail vs about any army of the same supply. 200 Supply of ultralisk infestor on the other hand....
On August 14 2011 01:34 Philosophy wrote: Ultras are good, just overshadowed by broodlords in most situations. Hydras are actually really terrible, mostly because they lose a ton of dps due to their projectile attacks. Giving hydras instant hit (like marines) would improve them hugely, as it comes with smart fire. Watch for reference:
(units have same stats, but mariens have instant hit, hydras projectiles)
Holy crap that is shocking. Hydras were instant hit in BW yes?
On August 14 2011 01:34 Philosophy wrote: Ultras are good, just overshadowed by broodlords in most situations. Hydras are actually really terrible, mostly because they lose a ton of dps due to their projectile attacks. Giving hydras instant hit (like marines) would improve them hugely, as it comes with smart fire. Watch for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5HojPrt0k&feature=player_embedded
(units have same stats, but mariens have instant hit, hydras projectiles)
Holy crap that is shocking. Hydras were instant hit in BW yes?
those aren't hydras, those are marines with the hydra model so they don't have instant shot (in case you didn't realize).
The problem for a lot of the unused units is time. Examples:
- Ultralisks are underused because they are hive tech and to be efficient at that stage of the game they require at least 2/2 melee upgrades and a followup investment for 3/5. - Reapers' speed upgrade requires the factory. Except by the time you have factory they become less efficient and the efficiency transitions into hellions, BF hellions, and medivac drops. - Motherships require a fleet beacon, which also requires a stargate. Unless you already have the stargate the time/resource investment to make 1 mothership is extreme. - Carriers are equivalent to motherships with the same buildings required, but an even higher time and resource investment when interceptor build times and multiple stargates are factored in.
Raven/non-harass Banshee/Battlecruisers would be seen more often if there was an easier mechanic to switch between tech lab / reactor. I'm not advocating the single player version of the Tech Reactor, but having one that can switch back and forth similar to Gateways <-> Warpgates might open up some more options.
- tech is out of the way, fleet beacon alone is rare and exspensive - carrier has like slowest build time besides mothersip - even after built, you have to add more interceptors - no easy transition - upgrades for carriers are super imporant, with 2 attacks of 5. A lack of upgrades can break this unit. Each armor on a opponets unit will drop the carriers damage by 20%. 4 armor stalker takes 1 damage a shot. - easy access to corrouptors and vikings which hard counter carriers - they all ready have anti-air for collosus.
Try tranistioning to 0-0 carriers when 3-3 marines out. You will get destroyed.
Please no buff to ultras. I just got rolled last night by a couple of them in a TvsZ XD Having said that, I do think carriers might need a slight speed or build time decrease to get used again but I think everything else is fine IMO
I think a raven buff could be really interesting, because they are definitely the weakest and least used spellcaster in the game right now. The buff doesn't even have to be anything major, just something that would encourage people to experiment with the unit more.
For example: seeker missile cheaper or cost cut the energy cost, or increase the raven movement speed.
What comes to BCs and carriers, I think they're destined to stay underused. Raven however has potential.
Ultras definitely have some use, even if they're not good on paper. They can absorb splash damage, break force fields, and they're the strongest unit you can quickly get for one larva. I too prefer broodlords in a lot of situation but let's not forget ultras are insanely fast for a T3 unit. One of my favourite properties of ultras is that their cavern takes only 60 seconds to make, so in late game base trade situations they saved my life more than once.
The hydra however, is the worst unit in the game IMO. I think Blizzard will probably give them something in the late game, either a speed ugrade or an evolution into a whole new unit because as it stands it's a huge gas investment that melts in 10 seconds once the opponent has AOE, and can't do anything else than sit there and die because they're too slow.
As for the other ones, I think there can be a use for reapers but I think it's quite honeslty a failed unit that Blizzard could very well just cancel.
As a unit the raven is overall good but the hunter seeker missile could get a buff, as it stands it just never seems worth the cost.
Like many others have said, carriers are already very good but other T3 units are just better. And given how dominant protoss is in the late game it would be a big mistake to buff them.
On August 14 2011 02:02 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Reapers: Great for early scouting, although only useful early on, it has its place Raven: Only mobile terran detection, PDDs are great in a lot of situations, although expensive this unit definitely has its place in the terran arsenal Carrier: Although expensive, this unit is nigh unstoppable when massed, and although really only useful in the super late game, they are the most supply effective unit for protoss Mothership: Best way to spend 8 supply in the game unless your opponent decided to go mass vikings/corruptors. Battlecruiser: Has its place in TvT Ultralisk: Anyone who said this unit is useless is clueless. While not a powerhouse, it's extremely good in all matchups (even ZvZ) Hydralisk: Good against air, the only reason this unit is bad is because air is, in general, underused aside from harassment, but it is still the best zerg anti-air unit.
Blizz themselves have said that they don't like the role that the reaper has been relegated to, and they don't like how protoss players play in the "shadow of the colossus" so to speak, relying so heavily on that unit. That's a lot of why archons were buffed for toss, and I would expect to see a major overhaul on the reaper (or even removal?) in HoTS.
Ravens are certainly a useful unit; mobile detection and PDD's against toss, mobile detection and autoturrets against zerg. The heat seaker missile maybe could do with a buff to its splash radius, but perhaps lower damage total... It's still very effective in the late game positional war of TvT; it will force an overwhelming number of vikings to retreat, or tanks to unseige, or whatever you need.
I think carriers need more maneuverablility - a speed upgrade that allowed you to micro them (like they were micro'd in broodwar, playing along ridges and etc.) would make them a bit map dependant, but certainly much more viable. The biggest problem is that they NEED full upgrades to not be useless, because otherwise the interceptors die too damn fast.
Mothership is cool. If you're that late into the game and have the fleet beacon up, there's no reason not to get it. Mass recall and win.
Battlecruiser is, I would argue the most usable capital ship on its own. Broodlords need significant support, from infestor/corruptor. Carriers have the aforementioned problem. Especially in the late game TvT, or against a Protoss who hasn't invested HEAVILY in voids, BC's will roll an unprepared player.
Ultras are important in ZvZ, because they aren't affected by fungal's hold. They'll stomp through stalker balls in PvZ, and it takes a good investment to get the counter (zealot immortal archon) out for the protoss. They're just a unit that you need to bring out at the correct TIME.
Finally the hydra. The hydra is unfortunately more of a defensive unit right now - but if you look at IdrA's play, it actually stomps gateway compositions, as well as air unit compositions. If you can get that creep spread a decent distance, Hydra/ling/infestor (to NP colossi if they get there) is a BALLING unit comp.
I wouldn't say ravens are underused at all, they have a role. Maybe seeker missile could be buffed but its not that big of a deal either way.
Don't know so much about carriers, maybe the build time is too long, they do well against vikings/corruptors, so probably just undiscovered.
Maybe it's because I play zerg mostly, but I think Ultras are broken. They are good tanks and do sick damage against armoured, but their pathing SUCKS HUGE ASSES. Seeing them get stuck on a single zealot or even a single marine or stuck behind lings makes me cry. Trying to focus them on the armoured units at the back just makes them walk around the whole battle and they still get destroyed. IMO they need a passive buff like maybe they could ignore/walk through/push aside light units. makes sense for a 'massive' unit
Most units have their niche and fulfill their roles as blizzard wants them to. If they aren't, chances are they are already looking at and tweaking them. You can't just throw out random buffs/nerfs to things without a large amount of testing because what seems like a fair buff to players might actually be severely broken and make certain units very overpowered/underpowered in different situations.
I think ultras are great in conjunction with banelings or infestors. That shit's downright unstoppable. Throw in the fact that ultralisks are transportable via nydus, and you've got a much more useful unit than the brood lord as far as I'm concerned. Using ultras is just a decision if you want to be more sauron zerg than brute force Zerg. Only thing they could use is a speed upgrade or a cost reduction. Other than that, I'd say that Ultras are pretty awesome.
As for the Raven, I feel like they need to re-implement PDD denying brood lord shots. That made it a future staple of the matchup. Now it's just a retarded little gas dump that has a mediocre version of irradiate.
As for the carrier, this thing needs work. I think it would be as simple as to make it faster. That way it would be more micro-able. Carrier micro is something that is sadly gone from SC2, and I'd love to see it return. Carriers are pretty good only if the Terran is going nomarine mech, and I'd love to see some kind of way to make it so that a stimmed marine cloud doesn't just annihilate the interceptors.
I think carriers are the only unit which could use a buff/change right now. The main problem is the build time I think, because you're just sooooo vulnerable when getting carriers as the investment is huge and it takes a while to get any out.
Hydralisk: Good against air, the only reason this unit is bad is because air is, in general, underused aside from harassment, but it is still the best zerg anti-air unit.
Yeah because they are the only anti air ground unit..lol
EPT
