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On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote:
There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered:
Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty:
Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
This does not make sense and that's why these threads are pointless. Ultralisks and Hydralisks shitty units? Come on.
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Please don't buff the raven. I get nightmares from PDD's all the time already :S
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Yeah.. No one ever uses Ultras or Ravens..
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On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote:
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
Actually, if the Raven was "armored" armor type it would die much faster. There's much more with +Armored damage in the game than +Light. It would be stronger if it didn't have a size classification at all.
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Underused units, stuff like Helions 3 months ago?
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On August 13 2011 23:09 Cosmos wrote:
The ultralisk is EXTREMELY GOOD with the infestor...
EXTREMELY GOOD. Thats why it gets used so much. I don't think the ultra is bad, broodlords are just better and easier to counter the opponents counter. (For example its easy to have more corruptors than his vikings because you're making corruptors anyway.) It would be nice to see something added to the ultra tho. Speed upgrade please:p
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Ultra's are getting more and more used in TvZ
It's nice to see the ultra getting mixed in vs the tank armies.
It seems too work really well.
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On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote:
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
The raven just dies immediately when under fire, if it was armored you would have to build some counter to it. I pay 200 gas, have a techlab on my starport which is not that standard except i go for some banshee build and therefore i want to have a unit that can take some damage. I know the pdd is great, maybe turrets could get a bit more range or damage but nvm.
On August 13 2011 23:40 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:09 Cosmos wrote:
The ultralisk is EXTREMELY GOOD with the infestor... EXTREMELY GOOD. Thats why it gets used so much. I don't think the ultra is bad, broodlords are just better and easier to counter the opponents counter. (For example its easy to have more corruptors than his vikings because you're making corruptors anyway.) It would be nice to see something added to the ultra tho. Speed upgrade please:p
yeah sure, ultra should get charge upgrades.
maybe you could make the ultra armor upgrade something with cooldown, so that it activates when under fire but doesnt last too long. in very close games with low unit counts the full upgraded ultra seems to strong to me.
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On August 13 2011 23:25 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote:i disagree with the sentiment. It's like queens in BW. Unused for about a decade, and then all of a sudden being used in a flurry of games. Also, ultras fully upgraded are actually REALLY good units. as long as you're getting your ling upgrades as the game goes on, by the time you get ultras, you'll be able to do a LOT with them. Raven's underused because people don't see the utility of it yet. It's an incredibly strong unit. Same with Ghosts. And BCs just take a really long time to get to. I feel like you often hit your "ideal" unit comp before you're in a position to be like, "I want THIS!" Also: On August 13 2011 23:13 graNite wrote:
I think the raven is underused because it has light armor. Why is it this gas heavy unit not armored like a bc?
The ultra needs no buff imo, it can tank so much damage and that is what it is designed for.
I think we could see ultra hydra infestor in the future of zvz. Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback. ANd ultras take the exact amount of damage i think they should be able to. That's why they exist. To tank a ton of damage. Not to deal it out. Which is why you let them lead, take the first three or four tank shots, and then move in your lings, who are the actual DPS of your army This is the symptom of the sickness that is damage types in SC2. They simply carry too much weight and turn the game into a counter-fest. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist(they did in BW) but they shouldn't matter as much as they do now.
That's part of the problem though, i don't feel like it's less pronounced than BW. i mean, think of it in bw terms: Pretend that the highest damage a unit can do is the base damage, and the modifiers are the BW modifiers:
Siege tank: Explosive: 50 to armored. 35 to Light. in BW (if we use the same numbers), it would have been 50 to armored, 25 to light.
Stalker: (Dragoon): Explosive. 11 to armored, 10 to regular. In BW, this would have been 11 to armored and 5.5 to regular. Making the unit almost useless at killing drones etc.
I feel like the total damage spread is a LOT tighter than in BW, where you'd have huge fluctuations of 25% to 100%. Some things like vultures would basically NOT do damage to ultras. So i feel like it's less a "counter-counter matchup", and more of a, all units just tend to do a ton of damage too fast situation, personally. Everything's damage range is narrow, and just high.
But i'm mostly fine with it, i'm just saying that underused units aren't quite as bad as some people think that they are. I think the community is too much in a mindset of, "well, in zvz you go roach infestor. if you do anything else, you're an idiot." We need to stop pretending like everything's figured out, and we're running around with Flash-Double-Armory BOs. Because we're not. Half the BOs go up to 25 food, and then it's like, "Make units and supp depots as required."
Edit:
On August 13 2011 23:40 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote:
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback. The raven just dies immediately when under fire, if it was armored you would have to build some counter to it. I pay 200 gas, have a techlab on my starport which is not that standard except i go for some banshee build and therefore i want to have a unit that can take some damage. I know the pdd is great, maybe turrets could get a bit more range or damage but nvm. Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:40 ZaaaaaM wrote:On August 13 2011 23:09 Cosmos wrote:
The ultralisk is EXTREMELY GOOD with the infestor... EXTREMELY GOOD. Thats why it gets used so much. I don't think the ultra is bad, broodlords are just better and easier to counter the opponents counter. (For example its easy to have more corruptors than his vikings because you're making corruptors anyway.) It would be nice to see something added to the ultra tho. Speed upgrade please:p yeah sure, ultra should get charge upgrades. maybe you could make the ultra armor upgrade something with cooldown, so that it activates when under fire but doesnt last too long. in very close games with low unit counts the full upgraded ultra seems to strong to me.
The raven isn't supposed to be leading the front and tanking a ton of damage, it's supposed to be a more supportive, behind your marines/tank/thor/banshees/whatever else is the core of your army group.
But yea, that's another topic for another time. I personally feel like they're fine.
And to address your 2nd point: Ultras are a Huuuuuge investment. They're supposed to be really strong in games w/ low unit counts, because they're so good. if you have 2 dozen marines vs an ultra and 10 roaches, the ultra will be able to tank a lot for the roaches.
Not to put words in your mouth, but i feel like you're not liking the ultra for its intended purpose of soaking up tons of damage, and being a game-changer?
Edit 2:
On August 13 2011 23:35 Rembot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote:
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
Actually, if the Raven was "armored" armor type it would die much faster. There's much more with +Armored damage in the game than +Light. It would be stronger if it didn't have a size classification at all.
I also suppose this is right, i hadn't thought of it that way. I was thinking more of the +armor that typically comes with it (though isn't required, like the infestor)
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They should totally put in hydra and ultralisk speed upgrade back in... -_-' (I'm being serious, they should, lol)
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I think it's all about the unit being discovered, most obvious example being in SC1, where at first everybody thought vultures were terrible (now they're a staple terran unit).
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It's too soon to buff them. The Ultra and the Raven have been getting more and more use recently at the pro level, this should eventually trickle down through the leagues.
I think the Carrier, Mothership and Warp Prism will eventually find a place at the pro level as well. So far in SC2 protoss have mainly relied on timing attack type strategies to win games. These aren't working as well as they used to as Terrans and Zergs have become better and better at holding them. I feel like a revolution of late game Protoss play is on the way and these units will feature.
The Hydra might need a tweak. A very small speed buff would do wonders for them. Though I think you could make an arguement that Zergs just need to get better at spreading creep.
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The carrier is by far the unit the most in need of an upgrade...
Their build time is far too long which is a huge problem as they are only good if a surprise as they are so easily countered by every race except protoss (but goodluck building them in a pvp over silver league.)
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Thread should change its name to "Buffing carriers". Everyone would agree that reducing build-time by abut 5 sec would encourage its usage
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Carriers surely need a buff. Nobody uses them. Ever. For anything. They're an even bigger auto-loss than Ultralisks, which are only DECENT when backed up by a powerful caster unit and (usually) 3/3 lings with crack upgrade.
Hydralisks are too slow. They're getting squeezed out of the game completely. They're instant loss against terrans, good against protoss in certain situations (after getting rid of collossi as a tech switch, for example, or as part of a drop strat), and its hard to tell if they have much of a place in z v z.
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I'm a high masters T and I use ravens a lot vs every race even when they aren't being used to detect. It's a great all around unit particularly vs protoss for PDD on stalker and zerg for baneling mines.
I started doing this when I lost a game to some baneling mines and I haven't lost one like that sense.
As for carriers, they are too easy to counter for their cost right now and you can't attack move with them like you could in bw. The reason they were so good in bw particularly in PvT was because you could attack and move effectively dancing your wounded carriers back while picking off multiple units (even vs goliath).
HSM does need buffed however, it's pretty useless when compared to pdd and even turrets for harass. It's too easily avoidable and even if it lands it does pathetic damage compared to a fungal which costs less energy and isn't required to be researched.
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More cuz infestor broodlord kills everything. Before ridiculous infestor buff people were using ultras all the time.
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The only unit that qualifies in this thread is....... Carrier. Every other unit has seen use in GSL and televised games within the last 2 months.
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"They should buff the hellion, no one ever uses that useless unit"
That was the general thinking not long ago. Then SlayerS has a little marine/zergling/zealot barbeque and now everyone uses hellions.
The moral of the story is, some units may be in a great spot, but no one uses them correctly.
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EPT
