In the last few days i heard even more then in the past how dumb ultralisks are and how less they are used.
In that case a quote from blizzard came to my mind where they said that they buffed the archon and BC because it was mostly unused. The question i am asinkg myself is: what is with all the other units that arent used at all?! That is not only about the ultralisk but the carrier and raven aswell. (there might be more but they dont came to my mind atm. ) The raven is ok as a unit it is right know and i am not complaining, but i am talking about things like the seeker missile or even the cannon strike from the thor, which are essentially not the units, but the spell which are underused.
i am just wondering and that is no complaining about balance or anything near that. It interests me if there are more people asking themselves the same thing. In my opinion it would be really cool to see more units and speels or lets say to see all units used in some way. The ultralisk isnt used because zerg has broodlords which seem to be better. But in my opinion that is not the way the game should go. When zerg goes hive u already know it will be broods, which is kinda boring. I really liked what blizzard did to the BC and archon because know they are used units , which brings larger variety to the game!
So what do you guys think about that. Does these units need a buff, or will they come with time? Or dont u like the idea off buffing units just to get the used at all??
Just because an unit is unused doesn't mean its bad, more like just undiscovered.
Many a times units just don't get used because there's a better alternative at that moment and theres no need to try something new (remember zerg and protoss back in february?). If you buff carriers unnecessarily, suddenly an unbeatable carrier timing comes out and derps the game.
Not saying buffs shouldn't happen, but strategies need more time to settle before Blizz can attempt to change the game.
the game is fine, honestly the main reason a lot of units arent used is because they are situational, the carrier requires you to be on 5-6 base to tech to safely and be able to get them out in high number in a reasonable amount of time, but it is possible and with this scenario it would do quite well in a few battles assuming the opponent doesnt have a critical mass of vikings/corruptors
the raven is being used just fine, its a support unit not a main army unit and is seeing use at the pro level (mainly TvT it seems)
the problem with the ultralisk is that it dies too easily to enemy compositions, to buff this however would make it an imba unit, there are still situations where the ultra can be used and there are other situations where the BL can be used better, currently BL infestor is the go to composition for zerg against terran and protoss but its not the only one, ultralisk/queen (preferably with some hydra/ling support) does rather well due to transfuse micro and ultras never dying its quite fine
buffing an unused units usually result in a slightly unbalanced or very powerful units, like the infestors, they were fine before the patch, it just that there's not enough people willing to try it out. The archon is a different case though, it was underused because it was rather useless compare to a high templar with KA, so people only morph it after ht used up all the energy
I think the raven is underused because it has light armor. Why is it this gas heavy unit not armored like a bc? The ultra needs no buff imo, it can tank so much damage and that is what it is designed for. I think we could see ultra hydra infestor in the future of zvz.
I dont propose balance changes. i think u dont understand what i am saying. I dont say that they should or must buff theses units i am just asking about other opinions to get a better piont of view myself.
I see a fair number of Ultralisks and too many Ravens in high-level games, but it would be nice if Carriers had some limited role the way that BCs do now.
People have been using the Raven a lot in GSL and even used the Seeker Missile a few times lately. I also saw Ultras multiple times last week in GSL too. I guess Carriers could use a buff but Protoss is already very strong super late-game so I don't think it's necessary.
i disagree with the sentiment. It's like queens in BW. Unused for about a decade, and then all of a sudden being used in a flurry of games.
Also, ultras fully upgraded are actually REALLY good units. as long as you're getting your ling upgrades as the game goes on, by the time you get ultras, you'll be able to do a LOT with them.
Raven's underused because people don't see the utility of it yet. It's an incredibly strong unit. Same with Ghosts.
And BCs just take a really long time to get to. I feel like you often hit your "ideal" unit comp before you're in a position to be like, "I want THIS!"
Also:
On August 13 2011 23:13 graNite wrote: I think the raven is underused because it has light armor. Why is it this gas heavy unit not armored like a bc? The ultra needs no buff imo, it can tank so much damage and that is what it is designed for. I think we could see ultra hydra infestor in the future of zvz.
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
ANd ultras take the exact amount of damage i think they should be able to. That's why they exist. To tank a ton of damage. Not to deal it out. Which is why you let them lead, take the first three or four tank shots, and then move in your lings, who are the actual DPS of your army
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote: i disagree with the sentiment. It's like queens in BW. Unused for about a decade, and then all of a sudden being used in a flurry of games.
Also, ultras fully upgraded are actually REALLY good units. as long as you're getting your ling upgrades as the game goes on, by the time you get ultras, you'll be able to do a LOT with them.
Raven's underused because people don't see the utility of it yet. It's an incredibly strong unit. Same with Ghosts.
And BCs just take a really long time to get to. I feel like you often hit your "ideal" unit comp before you're in a position to be like, "I want THIS!"
On August 13 2011 23:13 graNite wrote: I think the raven is underused because it has light armor. Why is it this gas heavy unit not armored like a bc? The ultra needs no buff imo, it can tank so much damage and that is what it is designed for. I think we could see ultra hydra infestor in the future of zvz.
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
ANd ultras take the exact amount of damage i think they should be able to. That's why they exist. To tank a ton of damage. Not to deal it out. Which is why you let them lead, take the first three or four tank shots, and then move in your lings, who are the actual DPS of your army
This is the symptom of the sickness that is damage types in SC2. They simply carry too much weight and turn the game into a counter-fest. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist(they did in BW) but they shouldn't matter as much as they do now.
Some units aren't used because they: A) Cost too much for their value B) Take up too much supply to use. C) Are out of the tech path of a standard build
The raven costs 200 gas and must be produced from a starport with a techlab (A and C The carrier requires stargate tech and a fleet beacon (C) The mothership also requires stargate tech and a fleet beacon and takes up 8 supply and costs 400 gas (A, B and C)
If these units weren't so difficult or costly to get, I'm sure that they would be used more in professional play
actually i forgot to mention the hydra. That is a unit of that sort aswell. But it was used very oftne in the past and gets more and more unused atm. So it is the other way around.
On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote: There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
This does not make sense and that's why these threads are pointless. Ultralisks and Hydralisks shitty units? Come on.
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
Actually, if the Raven was "armored" armor type it would die much faster. There's much more with +Armored damage in the game than +Light. It would be stronger if it didn't have a size classification at all.
On August 13 2011 23:09 Cosmos wrote: The ultralisk is EXTREMELY GOOD with the infestor...
EXTREMELY GOOD. Thats why it gets used so much. I don't think the ultra is bad, broodlords are just better and easier to counter the opponents counter. (For example its easy to have more corruptors than his vikings because you're making corruptors anyway.) It would be nice to see something added to the ultra tho. Speed upgrade please:p
On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote: Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
The raven just dies immediately when under fire, if it was armored you would have to build some counter to it. I pay 200 gas, have a techlab on my starport which is not that standard except i go for some banshee build and therefore i want to have a unit that can take some damage. I know the pdd is great, maybe turrets could get a bit more range or damage but nvm.
On August 13 2011 23:09 Cosmos wrote: The ultralisk is EXTREMELY GOOD with the infestor...
EXTREMELY GOOD. Thats why it gets used so much. I don't think the ultra is bad, broodlords are just better and easier to counter the opponents counter. (For example its easy to have more corruptors than his vikings because you're making corruptors anyway.) It would be nice to see something added to the ultra tho. Speed upgrade please:p
yeah sure, ultra should get charge upgrades.
maybe you could make the ultra armor upgrade something with cooldown, so that it activates when under fire but doesnt last too long. in very close games with low unit counts the full upgraded ultra seems to strong to me.
On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote: i disagree with the sentiment. It's like queens in BW. Unused for about a decade, and then all of a sudden being used in a flurry of games.
Also, ultras fully upgraded are actually REALLY good units. as long as you're getting your ling upgrades as the game goes on, by the time you get ultras, you'll be able to do a LOT with them.
Raven's underused because people don't see the utility of it yet. It's an incredibly strong unit. Same with Ghosts.
And BCs just take a really long time to get to. I feel like you often hit your "ideal" unit comp before you're in a position to be like, "I want THIS!"
Also:
On August 13 2011 23:13 graNite wrote: I think the raven is underused because it has light armor. Why is it this gas heavy unit not armored like a bc? The ultra needs no buff imo, it can tank so much damage and that is what it is designed for. I think we could see ultra hydra infestor in the future of zvz.
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
ANd ultras take the exact amount of damage i think they should be able to. That's why they exist. To tank a ton of damage. Not to deal it out. Which is why you let them lead, take the first three or four tank shots, and then move in your lings, who are the actual DPS of your army
This is the symptom of the sickness that is damage types in SC2. They simply carry too much weight and turn the game into a counter-fest. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist(they did in BW) but they shouldn't matter as much as they do now.
That's part of the problem though, i don't feel like it's less pronounced than BW. i mean, think of it in bw terms: Pretend that the highest damage a unit can do is the base damage, and the modifiers are the BW modifiers:
Siege tank: Explosive: 50 to armored. 35 to Light. in BW (if we use the same numbers), it would have been 50 to armored, 25 to light.
Stalker: (Dragoon): Explosive. 11 to armored, 10 to regular. In BW, this would have been 11 to armored and 5.5 to regular. Making the unit almost useless at killing drones etc.
I feel like the total damage spread is a LOT tighter than in BW, where you'd have huge fluctuations of 25% to 100%. Some things like vultures would basically NOT do damage to ultras. So i feel like it's less a "counter-counter matchup", and more of a, all units just tend to do a ton of damage too fast situation, personally. Everything's damage range is narrow, and just high.
But i'm mostly fine with it, i'm just saying that underused units aren't quite as bad as some people think that they are. I think the community is too much in a mindset of, "well, in zvz you go roach infestor. if you do anything else, you're an idiot." We need to stop pretending like everything's figured out, and we're running around with Flash-Double-Armory BOs. Because we're not. Half the BOs go up to 25 food, and then it's like, "Make units and supp depots as required."
On August 13 2011 23:20 reneg wrote: Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
The raven just dies immediately when under fire, if it was armored you would have to build some counter to it. I pay 200 gas, have a techlab on my starport which is not that standard except i go for some banshee build and therefore i want to have a unit that can take some damage. I know the pdd is great, maybe turrets could get a bit more range or damage but nvm.
On August 13 2011 23:09 Cosmos wrote: The ultralisk is EXTREMELY GOOD with the infestor...
EXTREMELY GOOD. Thats why it gets used so much. I don't think the ultra is bad, broodlords are just better and easier to counter the opponents counter. (For example its easy to have more corruptors than his vikings because you're making corruptors anyway.) It would be nice to see something added to the ultra tho. Speed upgrade please:p
yeah sure, ultra should get charge upgrades.
maybe you could make the ultra armor upgrade something with cooldown, so that it activates when under fire but doesnt last too long. in very close games with low unit counts the full upgraded ultra seems to strong to me.
The raven isn't supposed to be leading the front and tanking a ton of damage, it's supposed to be a more supportive, behind your marines/tank/thor/banshees/whatever else is the core of your army group.
But yea, that's another topic for another time. I personally feel like they're fine.
And to address your 2nd point: Ultras are a Huuuuuge investment. They're supposed to be really strong in games w/ low unit counts, because they're so good. if you have 2 dozen marines vs an ultra and 10 roaches, the ultra will be able to tank a lot for the roaches.
Not to put words in your mouth, but i feel like you're not liking the ultra for its intended purpose of soaking up tons of damage, and being a game-changer?
Because if you had the raven as an armored unit, it'd be really strong. it has to have SOME drawback.
Actually, if the Raven was "armored" armor type it would die much faster. There's much more with +Armored damage in the game than +Light. It would be stronger if it didn't have a size classification at all.
I also suppose this is right, i hadn't thought of it that way. I was thinking more of the +armor that typically comes with it (though isn't required, like the infestor)
I think it's all about the unit being discovered, most obvious example being in SC1, where at first everybody thought vultures were terrible (now they're a staple terran unit).
It's too soon to buff them. The Ultra and the Raven have been getting more and more use recently at the pro level, this should eventually trickle down through the leagues.
I think the Carrier, Mothership and Warp Prism will eventually find a place at the pro level as well. So far in SC2 protoss have mainly relied on timing attack type strategies to win games. These aren't working as well as they used to as Terrans and Zergs have become better and better at holding them. I feel like a revolution of late game Protoss play is on the way and these units will feature.
The Hydra might need a tweak. A very small speed buff would do wonders for them. Though I think you could make an arguement that Zergs just need to get better at spreading creep.
The carrier is by far the unit the most in need of an upgrade...
Their build time is far too long which is a huge problem as they are only good if a surprise as they are so easily countered by every race except protoss (but goodluck building them in a pvp over silver league.)
Carriers surely need a buff. Nobody uses them. Ever. For anything. They're an even bigger auto-loss than Ultralisks, which are only DECENT when backed up by a powerful caster unit and (usually) 3/3 lings with crack upgrade.
Hydralisks are too slow. They're getting squeezed out of the game completely. They're instant loss against terrans, good against protoss in certain situations (after getting rid of collossi as a tech switch, for example, or as part of a drop strat), and its hard to tell if they have much of a place in z v z.
I'm a high masters T and I use ravens a lot vs every race even when they aren't being used to detect. It's a great all around unit particularly vs protoss for PDD on stalker and zerg for baneling mines.
I started doing this when I lost a game to some baneling mines and I haven't lost one like that sense.
As for carriers, they are too easy to counter for their cost right now and you can't attack move with them like you could in bw. The reason they were so good in bw particularly in PvT was because you could attack and move effectively dancing your wounded carriers back while picking off multiple units (even vs goliath).
HSM does need buffed however, it's pretty useless when compared to pdd and even turrets for harass. It's too easily avoidable and even if it lands it does pathetic damage compared to a fungal which costs less energy and isn't required to be researched.
After a year and after millions of games from all levels, I'd like to think Blizzard should have a good idea about gameplay and balance. I'm expecting something big in HoTS **cough** LURKERS **cough**
I think all they need to do to make the ultralisk more used is to fix it's pathing. It doesn't need a buff of any kind. As it is now it's pretty much a slow moving roadblock. I think they should allow units like lings to pass under ultra. Ultras can be used, but are so situational right now.
I sort of have mixed feelings on buffing unused units. The thing that scares me most is that those units are simply undiscovered, and a buff will put the metagame back a month or so. The next example is a hypothetical (I actually don't think infestor-ling is imba) Look at the infestor buff (which wasn't even used for a decent amount of time), which has arguably set ZvP in Z favor. Now Protoss players have to try to find a way to beat it while Zerg players just have to win until Protoss figures out a way to beat it. After Protoss figures it out, both sides will be creative again, but there will be some time of meh games. Was ZvP imbalanced before the infestor buff? Is ZvP imbalanced now? I don't think so for either, but Z seems to be winning a lot more afterwards.
Ultras are on the weak end of Hive tech, but they still see some use in every matchup occasionally.
Carriers, on the other hand, are outright useless. They're really only useful for the 'shock value' in a late-late-game PvT scenario, and even then there are usually better options.
Blizzard said in an interview pretty recently that they were okay with some units being 'casual level,' i.e. only good for massing in free-for-alls. Considering the last few weeks of play, it seems like that statement mostly applies to Fleet Beacon tech. It would be nice if Motherships and Carriers got increased movespeed and lower build times, but at this point that's more of a HotS change.
On August 14 2011 00:06 petered wrote: "They should buff the hellion, no one ever uses that useless unit"
That was the general thinking not long ago. Then SlayerS has a little marine/zergling/zealot barbeque and now everyone uses hellions.
The moral of the story is, some units may be in a great spot, but no one uses them correctly.
Agree. You look at something like Metal, and say, "That's a balanced and good map, a map everyone enjoys."
Sure, you'd field criticism for close positions from zerg and how it's unwinnable etc, but then blizzard steps in and drops some knowledge, and says things like, "Zerg has 60+% win."
Which goes directly into the face of what the community's been thinking. So, while i agree, they'll make the right decision, i just want to remind everyone that what everyone thinks, isn't always what's the case.
infestor ultralisk in the late game destroys protoss especially stalker heavy armies -_- In BW everyone thought they were bad. They buffed them from 100 minerals to 75 (i think), now they are an integral part of terran harass
Ultralisks are a lot stronger if you synergize them properly with the right units. Ultras and roaches aren't anything special. Neither are ultras and lings. But Ultras work awesome with infestors, with banelings, hell I could see them working well with hydras.
I'm saying, imagine brood lords with the wrong units underneath them. They'd be the weak end too. Zerg has a comparatively stronger end game unit because they're easier to field than carriers and cattlebruisers.
I stand by let unused units be discovered. And sure as hell don't buff them. I don't want something to go from underused to broken. Thats the opposite of fixing the problem! Edit: Remembered what I was going to end with. Archons weren't underused, they were poorly designed. Having a mildly expensive unit that can be conc'd and kited until its killed was a bad decision that was rectified. While one or two units may fall under that same category it is way too easy to make a mistake for the worse. Yes hydras need a speed upgrade. Sure overlord speed should be on hatchery tech. But will it break ZvP to buff ZvT scouting or the other way around?
Just touching any of the less commonly used units would change how their opponents react during an actual game...
On August 14 2011 00:19 SoKHo wrote: infestor ultralisk in the late game destroys protoss especially stalker heavy armies -_- In BW everyone thought they were bad. They buffed them from 100 minerals to 75 (i think), now they are an integral part of terran harass
I think you have those words mixed up... in that last line...or in the wrong places...? Not sure if that's what you really meant...and uh... those two units which you might be referring to are not the same...one is slightly faster than a ling while the other one isn't
On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote: There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
This does not make sense and that's why these threads are pointless. Ultralisks and Hydralisks shitty units? Come on.
Ultralisk worst T3 unit in the game, period. Hydralisks 80 hp, unusable off creep and needs upgrade to have same range as stalker.
Carrier is pretty much it. I see ravens all the time in 1-1-1 pushes, multiple in late game air-wars with PDD and hunter seeker missile against viking clumps, used with vikings against cloaked banshee openings.
I see ultra commonly as a transition out of ling/infestor in ZvT. Nerchio and I believe Morrow do this and make standard tank/marine armies look stupid because tanks do so little damage to ultralisks, which serve mostly to soak up fire while cracklings deal the real damage. People claim the AI is stupid for some reason but if you babysit their movement a bit it solves most pathing issues.
People will complain about hydras and say stuff like they need a speed upgrade. They're already great in certain situations, like after killing off the colossi and remaxing with them againk blink stalkers opposed to just mass roach. Or for the 2 base nydus v protoss on tal'darim altar. They work well in any timing when no colossi out, giving them a speed upgrade wouldn't change them dying to colossi (which they should since they are extremely good versus gateway). Sometimes it also seems beneficial to sprinkle in a couple with your roach army in ZvZ to do some additional DPS, like Nestea v Leenock I believe it was. This isn't Brood War where hydralisks are your tier one solution to everything. Roaches are already extremely good in low to medium number engagements, and some people still just mass them into the late game and do perfectly fine, no need to make hydralisks have more HP or something as well. Roach/hydra/corruptor is slowly dying off and rightfully should, it made for the stupidest ZvP games and was an illogical late game composition anyway.
They either need to make the ultralisk smaller or make it able to to walk on units like the colossus and the unit might just do a little bit of damage.
I actually find Ultras to be superior to BL for hive tech simply because of mobility, I feel its a unit that will be used more and more as peoples multitasking to abuse that mobility improves
Ultras and Hydras are really good units... you just have to know when and how to use them.
I think the Carrier is also a good unit, but it could use a "psycological buff" (like blue flame Hellions with that icon patch change). Specifically, make the interceptors build automatically...
I use to hate Ultras, found them to be worthless, waste of money.
Then I started getting super fast upgrades for meele/carapace, get a few infestors, and then found out that a 3/5 ultralisk army, with infestor support and cracklings that are 3/3 tear through pretty much anything. Now I use Ultras almost every game vs. toss, make those stupid FF worthless, and with infestors you can actually catch and engage.
Sometimes units are flat out broken, and then they should be looked at. But sometimes it just takes time to understand the potential of a unit, OR how to combine a unit with another unit to really reveal it's strengths like in the case of the Ultra/Infestor combination.
Raven is another unit I found to be pretty underused by terran players, and now you start to see that often as well.
I think BC's have their place, but the one unit that right now might need help are Carriers. But who knows, maybe with Toss players struggling we'll find that they will all the sudden have some value and that will change.
On August 14 2011 00:59 Volka wrote: Ultras and Hydras are really good units... you just have to know when and how to use them.
I think the Carrier is also a good unit, but it could use a "psycological buff" (like blue flame Hellions with that icon patch change). Specifically, make the interceptors build automatically...
Maybe Protoss should also get a change where they can 4 gate automatically? This way they don't ever have to push buttons.
The problem with this question is that every Zerg unit is used, because there are so few of them to choose between. Their only option for shooting up is the hydralisk or the, well, queen. So there aren't really any unused Zerg units -- but I don't think that means they don't need a buff or redesign.
On August 13 2011 23:07 tendence wrote: I think the key to some of those units to being used more isn't buffing at all.
Some of the mentioned units are already crazy strong, and I think their time will come.
But high tier units aren't easy to implement to your standard games, and thats fine like this... thats why they are high tier.
I think buffing them would be a huge misstake, ergo I expect Blizzard that they will buff them very soon
well, blizz has the PTR. I asked myself that quite often now: why don't they just throw out something completely different stuff and test it on the PTR? If there is a patch on the PTR everyone sees that patch as the next patch that will be carried over to the usual server but in my opinion the test realm should be for testing stuff. Like for example just give hydras for example a huge buff, wait a month (or even longer) and watch what happens. Zerg win-rate will raise first but probably it will be balanced when the other races figured out what to do against the "new" unit and you gave zerg a new strategy. If it won't be balanced after a few month you can still just revoke the change.
TL;DR: Blizz should to use their PTR as a TEST realm
I think many units are being under-used because people havnt truly figured out how to use them.
The archon is an exelent example of this. Not a long time ago people would laugh at the archon, saying it's a bad unit. Now we see the archon all the time.
If anyone watched EG masters we saw mouz.ThorZaIN do some amazing ghost-play against CoL.CatZ. People might not have thought ghosts could have been used that way.. like mass sniping.
What I'm trying to say that it depends alot on how the metagame evolves. I think units such as the Raven and the Warpprism will be much more common once the metagames evolves. It might take a very long time.
Saying a unit is "too costy for their value" might be true. It might also be a direct result of the metagame, or simply wrong use of the unit. Look at the infestor. Look at how people are using the unit now, compared to some months ago. Infested terrans was not a spell people thought about using, and it was considered a waste of energy to use that spell. Now it's being used just as much as the fungal growth, if not more. Exploring that infested terrans are useful have led to the infestor being a more cost-efficient unit.
On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote: There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
This does not make sense and that's why these threads are pointless. Ultralisks and Hydralisks shitty units? Come on.
Ultralisk worst T3 unit in the game, period. Hydralisks 80 hp, unusable off creep and needs upgrade to have same range as stalker.
Ultra is by far not the worst T3 unit.. have you not seen BCs? Or the mothership? Ultra is one of the best when used in the right comp
On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote: There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
This does not make sense and that's why these threads are pointless. Ultralisks and Hydralisks shitty units? Come on.
Ultralisk worst T3 unit in the game, period. Hydralisks 80 hp, unusable off creep and needs upgrade to have same range as stalker.
Ultra is by far not the worst T3 unit.. have you not seen BCs? Or the mothership? Ultra is one of the best when used in the right comp
Mothership doesn't count into the T3 fighting units. There are two T3 units for each race, Carrier Colossi, BC Thor, Ultra Brood Lord. Mothership has some cool uses but I wouldn't put it in the list because it's not a fighting and just a bonus on the side. BC's are fucking great! Ultras ain't "BAD" but they're bad considering tech, cost and supply when you also compare to other T3 of other races.
On August 13 2011 23:27 CubY wrote: actually i forgot to mention the hydra. That is a unit of that sort aswell. But it was used very oftne in the past and gets more and more unused atm. So it is the other way around.
It was used a lot in the past because it was believed that there was no better alternative, now there are. It also gets hard countered by colossus and storms and is slow off creep.
On August 14 2011 00:59 Volka wrote: Ultras and Hydras are really good units... you just have to know when and how to use them.
I think the Carrier is also a good unit, but it could use a "psycological buff" (like blue flame Hellions with that icon patch change). Specifically, make the interceptors build automatically...
Please enlighten us zerg players when to use them... probably less than 5 situations, thats not a good unit. Thats a bad unit that has its uses in very specific situation where going the other techroute is still more safe a lot of the time...
On August 14 2011 01:15 Ajaco92 wrote: I think many units are being under-used because people havnt truly figured out how to use them.
The archon is an exelent example of this. Not a long time ago people would laugh at the archon, saying it's a bad unit. Now we see the archon all the time.
If anyone watched EG masters we saw mouz.ThorZaIN do some amazing ghost-play against CoL.CatZ. People might not have thought ghosts could have been used that way.. like mass sniping.
What I'm trying to say that it depends alot on how the metagame evolves. I think units such as the Raven and the Warpprism will be much more common once the metagames evolves. It might take a very long time.
Saying a unit is "too costy for their value" might be true. It might also be a direct result of the metagame, or simply wrong use of the unit. Look at the infestor. Look at how people are using the unit now, compared to some months ago. Infested terrans was not a spell people thought about using, and it was considered a waste of energy to use that spell. Now it's being used just as much as the fungal growth, if not more. Exploring that infested terrans are useful have led to the infestor being a more cost-efficient unit.
Um, the archon was a bad unit, that's why it was buffed. It was what you made when you used up your storms and wanted something to tank some shots for a second.
ultras are okay. great with ling/bane/infestor against protoss, just chews through deathball. Much better than staying on hatch/lair tech and losing 200/200 for 40.
Ultras are good, just overshadowed by broodlords in most situations. Hydras are actually really terrible, mostly because they lose a ton of dps due to their projectile attacks. Giving hydras instant hit (like marines) would improve them hugely, as it comes with smart fire. Watch for reference:
(units have same stats, but mariens have instant hit, hydras projectiles)
omg so much "metagame" T-T yeah i totally think they should buff the scout.
what kind of game do you want where every unit is used the same amount? I've seen ravens and ultralisks enough and they do their job well. Everything is fine. Even carriers, the must unused unit of all. It's exactly how its supposed to be.
Carriers are really good in PvT, but you need like 4+ bases to get a decent production of them up. You also need to have quite an advantage to be able to tech switch into them without dying to the terran. That's why you dont see them used often in progames.
On August 13 2011 23:07 tendence wrote: I think the key to some of those units to being used more isn't buffing at all.
Some of the mentioned units are already crazy strong, and I think their time will come.
But high tier units aren't easy to implement to your standard games, and thats fine like this... thats why they are high tier.
I think buffing them would be a huge misstake, ergo I expect Blizzard that they will buff them very soon
well, blizz has the PTR. I asked myself that quite often now: why don't they just throw out something completely different stuff and test it on the PTR? If there is a patch on the PTR everyone sees that patch as the next patch that will be carried over to the usual server but in my opinion the test realm should be for testing stuff. Like for example just give hydras for example a huge buff, wait a month (or even longer) and watch what happens. Zerg win-rate will raise first but probably it will be balanced when the other races figured out what to do against the "new" unit and you gave zerg a new strategy. If it won't be balanced after a few month you can still just revoke the change.
TL;DR: Blizz should to use their PTR as a TEST realm
The problem is that the people who test these balance changes aren't progamers, and will usually win or lose a lot less based on unit balances
On August 14 2011 01:18 BuZZ123 wrote: Lol. So 5 3 ultralisks are bad now? I did not get the memo.
There was a thread a while back that gave a strong argument that ultras were the worse unit you could ever get. They have a lower dps to cost ratio than workers against unarmoured units, one of the worst hp to cost ratios( it beats stuff like colossus and ravens), and other stuff like that.
I think it's funny that people compare catching someone off-guard to situational. Ya you could argue they're the same but they're not. 2 base protoss vs maybe like a 3 base muta. Archon's would be a situational unit. Sending dt's to an expansion to try and take it out because they have no defense is trying to catch him unaware while another fight is happening or simply denying the expo isn't really situational IMO(ya you could say well it's situational because you're trying to deny bases, but that's more twisting words than actually proving a point..). Reaper harass is just rofl. That's no where near a situational unit. It's a poor opening tech choice that can leave you very uncomfortable if the enemy zerg has a queen, and most maps don't accommodate reaper play. The fact that they even have this unit in the game with the current blue flame hellion love on is silly. I think Blizzard is trying balance the game 1 hit point at a time and I think it's the wrong way of doing so.
To the OP, the Carrier is very, very strong, and much like the muta, after you get a few in your circle, it's almost gg. I do think Ultralisks suck and there's almost no point in building them, but whatever
On August 14 2011 01:18 BuZZ123 wrote: Lol. So 5 3 ultralisks are bad now? I did not get the memo.
There was a thread a while back that gave a strong argument that ultras were the worse unit you could ever get. They have a lower dps to cost ratio than workers against unarmoured units, one of the worst hp to cost ratios( it beats stuff like colossus and ravens), and other stuff like that.
It's just a really bad unit.
While it's not very cost effective, it's very supply effective (something that almost all other zerg units lack). 200 supply of roach hydra might beat most things of the same cost, but fail vs about any army of the same supply. 200 Supply of ultralisk infestor on the other hand....
It could just do with meta-game. IMO I see ravens plenty, and I think they're quite good, it just has to be used more, and so far there isn't a real metagame revolving around it. The only real unit I feel needs a change is ultra's and hydra's. Ultras need to be smaller and/or faster. And hydra's need to have a bit more survivability. There's no way in hell a bunch of blink stalkers should be able to take on an equivalent sized hydra army, but that's just how it is. With that being said, I still feel there's a place for hydras and ultras still, even without the buffs I'm suggesting.
On August 13 2011 23:07 tendence wrote: I think the key to some of those units to being used more isn't buffing at all.
Some of the mentioned units are already crazy strong, and I think their time will come.
But high tier units aren't easy to implement to your standard games, and thats fine like this... thats why they are high tier.
I think buffing them would be a huge misstake, ergo I expect Blizzard that they will buff them very soon
well, blizz has the PTR. I asked myself that quite often now: why don't they just throw out something completely different stuff and test it on the PTR? If there is a patch on the PTR everyone sees that patch as the next patch that will be carried over to the usual server but in my opinion the test realm should be for testing stuff. Like for example just give hydras for example a huge buff, wait a month (or even longer) and watch what happens. Zerg win-rate will raise first but probably it will be balanced when the other races figured out what to do against the "new" unit and you gave zerg a new strategy. If it won't be balanced after a few month you can still just revoke the change.
TL;DR: Blizz should to use their PTR as a TEST realm
Yeah, protoss will learn to make more colossus, and terrans will learn to make more blueflame hellions. Then winrates will go back to original.
Ultras are crazy against Toss and they look almost imbalance. Zerg can tech switch almost instantly, it is always so hard to churn out immortals before 3 to 4 ultras completely destroy my blink stalkers colossus ball. Use them and you will know.
Reapers: Great for early scouting, although only useful early on, it has its place Raven: Only mobile terran detection, PDDs are great in a lot of situations, although expensive this unit definitely has its place in the terran arsenal Carrier: Although expensive, this unit is nigh unstoppable when massed, and although really only useful in the super late game, they are the most supply effective unit for protoss Mothership: Best way to spend 8 supply in the game unless your opponent decided to go mass vikings/corruptors. Battlecruiser: Has its place in TvT Ultralisk: Anyone who said this unit is useless is clueless. While not a powerhouse, it's extremely good in all matchups (even ZvZ) Hydralisk: Good against air, the only reason this unit is bad is because air is, in general, underused aside from harassment, but it is still the best zerg anti-air unit.
IMO the hydra is one of the most well balanced units in the game. Its a single unit counter to every toss unit except colossus and HT with storm and yet its speed keeps it from being OP. And the best part? IT ISN'T SLOW! The hydra has the same move speed as zealots/sentries/marine/marauder when OFF creep. So basically its a unit with a dynamic very similar to broodlords off creep (moving out is a commitment to action) but maintains zerg mobility on creep. I wish more units had this kind of consideration.
On August 14 2011 01:18 BuZZ123 wrote: Lol. So 5 3 ultralisks are bad now? I did not get the memo.
There was a thread a while back that gave a strong argument that ultras were the worse unit you could ever get. They have a lower dps to cost ratio than workers against unarmoured units, one of the worst hp to cost ratios( it beats stuff like colossus and ravens), and other stuff like that.
It's just a really bad unit.
While it's not very cost effective, it's very supply effective (something that almost all other zerg units lack). 200 supply of roach hydra might beat most things of the same cost, but fail vs about any army of the same supply. 200 Supply of ultralisk infestor on the other hand....
On August 14 2011 01:34 Philosophy wrote: Ultras are good, just overshadowed by broodlords in most situations. Hydras are actually really terrible, mostly because they lose a ton of dps due to their projectile attacks. Giving hydras instant hit (like marines) would improve them hugely, as it comes with smart fire. Watch for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5HojPrt0k&feature=player_embedded
(units have same stats, but mariens have instant hit, hydras projectiles)
Holy crap that is shocking. Hydras were instant hit in BW yes?
On August 14 2011 01:34 Philosophy wrote: Ultras are good, just overshadowed by broodlords in most situations. Hydras are actually really terrible, mostly because they lose a ton of dps due to their projectile attacks. Giving hydras instant hit (like marines) would improve them hugely, as it comes with smart fire. Watch for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5HojPrt0k&feature=player_embedded
(units have same stats, but mariens have instant hit, hydras projectiles)
Holy crap that is shocking. Hydras were instant hit in BW yes?
those aren't hydras, those are marines with the hydra model so they don't have instant shot (in case you didn't realize).
The problem for a lot of the unused units is time. Examples:
- Ultralisks are underused because they are hive tech and to be efficient at that stage of the game they require at least 2/2 melee upgrades and a followup investment for 3/5. - Reapers' speed upgrade requires the factory. Except by the time you have factory they become less efficient and the efficiency transitions into hellions, BF hellions, and medivac drops. - Motherships require a fleet beacon, which also requires a stargate. Unless you already have the stargate the time/resource investment to make 1 mothership is extreme. - Carriers are equivalent to motherships with the same buildings required, but an even higher time and resource investment when interceptor build times and multiple stargates are factored in.
Raven/non-harass Banshee/Battlecruisers would be seen more often if there was an easier mechanic to switch between tech lab / reactor. I'm not advocating the single player version of the Tech Reactor, but having one that can switch back and forth similar to Gateways <-> Warpgates might open up some more options.
- tech is out of the way, fleet beacon alone is rare and exspensive - carrier has like slowest build time besides mothersip - even after built, you have to add more interceptors - no easy transition - upgrades for carriers are super imporant, with 2 attacks of 5. A lack of upgrades can break this unit. Each armor on a opponets unit will drop the carriers damage by 20%. 4 armor stalker takes 1 damage a shot. - easy access to corrouptors and vikings which hard counter carriers - they all ready have anti-air for collosus.
Try tranistioning to 0-0 carriers when 3-3 marines out. You will get destroyed.
Please no buff to ultras. I just got rolled last night by a couple of them in a TvsZ XD Having said that, I do think carriers might need a slight speed or build time decrease to get used again but I think everything else is fine IMO
I think a raven buff could be really interesting, because they are definitely the weakest and least used spellcaster in the game right now. The buff doesn't even have to be anything major, just something that would encourage people to experiment with the unit more.
For example: seeker missile cheaper or cost cut the energy cost, or increase the raven movement speed.
What comes to BCs and carriers, I think they're destined to stay underused. Raven however has potential.
Ultras definitely have some use, even if they're not good on paper. They can absorb splash damage, break force fields, and they're the strongest unit you can quickly get for one larva. I too prefer broodlords in a lot of situation but let's not forget ultras are insanely fast for a T3 unit. One of my favourite properties of ultras is that their cavern takes only 60 seconds to make, so in late game base trade situations they saved my life more than once.
The hydra however, is the worst unit in the game IMO. I think Blizzard will probably give them something in the late game, either a speed ugrade or an evolution into a whole new unit because as it stands it's a huge gas investment that melts in 10 seconds once the opponent has AOE, and can't do anything else than sit there and die because they're too slow.
As for the other ones, I think there can be a use for reapers but I think it's quite honeslty a failed unit that Blizzard could very well just cancel.
As a unit the raven is overall good but the hunter seeker missile could get a buff, as it stands it just never seems worth the cost.
Like many others have said, carriers are already very good but other T3 units are just better. And given how dominant protoss is in the late game it would be a big mistake to buff them.
On August 14 2011 02:02 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Reapers: Great for early scouting, although only useful early on, it has its place Raven: Only mobile terran detection, PDDs are great in a lot of situations, although expensive this unit definitely has its place in the terran arsenal Carrier: Although expensive, this unit is nigh unstoppable when massed, and although really only useful in the super late game, they are the most supply effective unit for protoss Mothership: Best way to spend 8 supply in the game unless your opponent decided to go mass vikings/corruptors. Battlecruiser: Has its place in TvT Ultralisk: Anyone who said this unit is useless is clueless. While not a powerhouse, it's extremely good in all matchups (even ZvZ) Hydralisk: Good against air, the only reason this unit is bad is because air is, in general, underused aside from harassment, but it is still the best zerg anti-air unit.
Blizz themselves have said that they don't like the role that the reaper has been relegated to, and they don't like how protoss players play in the "shadow of the colossus" so to speak, relying so heavily on that unit. That's a lot of why archons were buffed for toss, and I would expect to see a major overhaul on the reaper (or even removal?) in HoTS.
Ravens are certainly a useful unit; mobile detection and PDD's against toss, mobile detection and autoturrets against zerg. The heat seaker missile maybe could do with a buff to its splash radius, but perhaps lower damage total... It's still very effective in the late game positional war of TvT; it will force an overwhelming number of vikings to retreat, or tanks to unseige, or whatever you need.
I think carriers need more maneuverablility - a speed upgrade that allowed you to micro them (like they were micro'd in broodwar, playing along ridges and etc.) would make them a bit map dependant, but certainly much more viable. The biggest problem is that they NEED full upgrades to not be useless, because otherwise the interceptors die too damn fast.
Mothership is cool. If you're that late into the game and have the fleet beacon up, there's no reason not to get it. Mass recall and win.
Battlecruiser is, I would argue the most usable capital ship on its own. Broodlords need significant support, from infestor/corruptor. Carriers have the aforementioned problem. Especially in the late game TvT, or against a Protoss who hasn't invested HEAVILY in voids, BC's will roll an unprepared player.
Ultras are important in ZvZ, because they aren't affected by fungal's hold. They'll stomp through stalker balls in PvZ, and it takes a good investment to get the counter (zealot immortal archon) out for the protoss. They're just a unit that you need to bring out at the correct TIME.
Finally the hydra. The hydra is unfortunately more of a defensive unit right now - but if you look at IdrA's play, it actually stomps gateway compositions, as well as air unit compositions. If you can get that creep spread a decent distance, Hydra/ling/infestor (to NP colossi if they get there) is a BALLING unit comp.
I wouldn't say ravens are underused at all, they have a role. Maybe seeker missile could be buffed but its not that big of a deal either way.
Don't know so much about carriers, maybe the build time is too long, they do well against vikings/corruptors, so probably just undiscovered.
Maybe it's because I play zerg mostly, but I think Ultras are broken. They are good tanks and do sick damage against armoured, but their pathing SUCKS HUGE ASSES. Seeing them get stuck on a single zealot or even a single marine or stuck behind lings makes me cry. Trying to focus them on the armoured units at the back just makes them walk around the whole battle and they still get destroyed. IMO they need a passive buff like maybe they could ignore/walk through/push aside light units. makes sense for a 'massive' unit
Most units have their niche and fulfill their roles as blizzard wants them to. If they aren't, chances are they are already looking at and tweaking them. You can't just throw out random buffs/nerfs to things without a large amount of testing because what seems like a fair buff to players might actually be severely broken and make certain units very overpowered/underpowered in different situations.
I think ultras are great in conjunction with banelings or infestors. That shit's downright unstoppable. Throw in the fact that ultralisks are transportable via nydus, and you've got a much more useful unit than the brood lord as far as I'm concerned. Using ultras is just a decision if you want to be more sauron zerg than brute force Zerg. Only thing they could use is a speed upgrade or a cost reduction. Other than that, I'd say that Ultras are pretty awesome.
As for the Raven, I feel like they need to re-implement PDD denying brood lord shots. That made it a future staple of the matchup. Now it's just a retarded little gas dump that has a mediocre version of irradiate.
As for the carrier, this thing needs work. I think it would be as simple as to make it faster. That way it would be more micro-able. Carrier micro is something that is sadly gone from SC2, and I'd love to see it return. Carriers are pretty good only if the Terran is going nomarine mech, and I'd love to see some kind of way to make it so that a stimmed marine cloud doesn't just annihilate the interceptors.
I think carriers are the only unit which could use a buff/change right now. The main problem is the build time I think, because you're just sooooo vulnerable when getting carriers as the investment is huge and it takes a while to get any out.
Hydralisk: Good against air, the only reason this unit is bad is because air is, in general, underused aside from harassment, but it is still the best zerg anti-air unit.
Yeah because they are the only anti air ground unit..lol
Honestly its just that Blizzards way of balancing is just really retarded.
First of all they see a unit not getting used very much.
So they make the build time faster or require less tech.
Then every single player starts experimenting with them because of the change.
A whole lot of balance complaints ensue.
Blizzard sees this and nerfs the crap out of them by making the damage lower.
Now the unit is useless not only early game, but also late game.
Why is this stupid?
Lets look at the state of the game when seeker missile / tank / etc was buffed. (Seeker Missile moved to Starport Tech Lab) (Factory cost/build-time significantly reduced / iirc Tank build time reduced)
At that time maps were really small so games never got to late game.
This meant that late game units never got used, or you were never able to get enough of high-tier units because you would just get rolled over. It's not that they weren't useful, its that games never got to the stage where they could be useful.
The most retarded balancing decision Blizzard could make (and this is what they ended up doing), is by making high-tier units require less tech. Completely forgetting, the reason high-tier units/spells are hard to get, is because they are too imbalanced mid-game but are still absolutely vital late-game.
So obviously by making all this stuff way easier to get, Terran suddenly became imbalanced. They now have so many tech choices, and so many powerful units early on in the game. So what does Blizzard do, the stupidest thing of all, nerf the damage.
Why is this stupid? Because now Terran doesn't have a late game composition, and now Blizzard reckons the colossus/broodlord-infestor is imbalanced. No, its because Terran late game choices got nerfed to oblivion because Blizzard made them too easy to get when they weren't absolutely required.
It would be so awesome if Seeker Missiles could be used to take out colossi/broodlords/infestors, or for Tanks to be more viable against Protoss. This can only happen if you make Tanks and Seeker Missile require more tech, only then can you increase the damage back to an acceptable level.
Edit: I'm not complaining about Terran, I just used them as an example. Same can be said about other races, people wouldn't complain about Infestor if it was hive-tech, or Void Rays if it required a fleet beacon. Hell you could pretty much make Void Rays back to Beta stats if Blizzard did that.
Just because you don't use a unit a lot doesn't mean it doesn't get used or doesn't have a use. Infestors weren't used for a long time even after their most recent buff. They are still underused and most p/t players think they're quite powerful.
On August 14 2011 04:32 Crying wrote: just delete the carrier its useless and noone uses it and add a unit that has some kind of thing we can play around and to break the metagame.
Honestly I would rather they removed Void Rays, its better than a Carrier and doesn't need a Fleet Beacon. Its also no where near as cool as Carriers.
I cant really comment on balance but i do find uses for ultras with infestors personally.
Broods are probably better more often but in some situations they are bad.
Units get netter and worse though depending on current trends i think - a lot more than their crapness.
I do think that every unit should be viable, redundant units just spoil the game for noobs and create more work for balancing as they must always be considered.
I am glad that protoss is evolving to coep with new HT for example. I was fairly sure that unit had just been killed - and its role as i understood it had - but its coming back with the archon buff.
I think the balance needs to be allowing time for evolution of style vs making small changes to encourage new ideas without upsetting other areas too much.
On August 13 2011 23:07 unit wrote: the game is fine, honestly the main reason a lot of units arent used is because they are situational, the carrier requires you to be on 5-6 base to tech to safely and be able to get them out in high number in a reasonable amount of time, but it is possible and with this scenario it would do quite well in a few battles assuming the opponent doesnt have a critical mass of vikings/corruptors
the raven is being used just fine, its a support unit not a main army unit and is seeing use at the pro level (mainly TvT it seems)
the problem with the ultralisk is that it dies too easily to enemy compositions, to buff this however would make it an imba unit, there are still situations where the ultra can be used and there are other situations where the BL can be used better, currently BL infestor is the go to composition for zerg against terran and protoss but its not the only one, ultralisk/queen (preferably with some hydra/ling support) does rather well due to transfuse micro and ultras never dying its quite fine
Hmm, I think the raven is far from fine. Considering that terran dont even get them in TvZ (burrow banelings) and TvP (late game DT). Iono about you but burrow baneling can be game changer and yet no terran get raven anyways.
Same goes with late game DT. Do you know how hard it is when you have like 5 bases and they are all being swiped by DTs? Yet no terran get raven. I think Select had a game vs whitera and select had the same situation and he just burn scan. He probably burned about 6 scan to cleared it all and then head to whitera base.
You can argue that PDD timing is strong but it would seem to me that terran need better mobile detection.
terran has mobile detection that does stuff ... protoss would complain.
overseers are probably underused in their spells imo.
I think ravens as a general unit do seem lacking ... it the homing missile that i think sucks, takes so much energy and does tn really do that much on its own. PDD is kinda sick when you combine it with marines/marauder and stim vs protoss - but then i really cant compare army sizes as im not good enough. Its like meeting mass carrier or void ray ... maybe you shouldn't let it get to that situation.
They should really consider improving the bunker upgrade, at the moment it only gives it 2 more slots it should give it at least 50 hp extra, making bunkers a little more better as the game goes on.
There is no reason to get the Neo-Steel Frames upgrade at the moment, 2 more slots in bunkers, non upgraded command centers and planetary fortresses.
The armor upgrade for buildings is also a very strong upgrade, yet few use it, it's extremely strong specially vs fast hitters like lings/marines.
On August 14 2011 04:48 CubY wrote: i dont want this to end with complaining over generell balance or ahything in that sort so please stop that ...like sluggaslamoo
What I'm trying to say is its not about buffs and nerfs. Its much more complicated than that, which Blizzard doesn't seem to understand, which is why even though they have such a balanced game in terms of statistics, the gameplay has suffered and races are extremely un-even at different stages of the game.
The armor upgrade for buildings is also a very strong upgrade, that few use it, specially vs fast hitters like lings/marines.
Yes, building armor upgrade makes PFs even harder to kill and considering the amount of resources we float in the late game, more people should get this.
I still think that Mothership and Mass Recall got an use , like mana uses it in pvz to mass recall into enemys base and then keep forcefielding the ramp.
On August 14 2011 00:06 petered wrote: "They should buff the hellion, no one ever uses that useless unit"
That was the general thinking not long ago. Then SlayerS has a little marine/zergling/zealot barbeque and now everyone uses hellions.
The moral of the story is, some units may be in a great spot, but no one uses them correctly.
This is not always true though. David Kim said he was not OK with the Archon being underused for so long and gave it 3 range + the "massive" property. 2 range was way too short considering they are so fat they end up tripping over each other trying to get into range.
I think buffing units because they are underused is wrong. Underused is very subjective, even more than 'balance', also some unit only have uses in very specific situations.
Z/P has ultra/carrier. Ultra are awful except against other zergs (lol roaches) and carriers are too expensive to mass in pro games if protoss opponent doesn't turtle for 40 minutes.
On August 13 2011 23:13 graNite wrote: I think the raven is underused because it has light armor. Why is it this gas heavy unit not armored like a bc? The ultra needs no buff imo, it can tank so much damage and that is what it is designed for. I think we could see ultra hydra infestor in the future of zvz.
Why does your whole post smell of Bronze?
Also, this thread is a pain to read through.
This isn't about a balance discussion as to what units need buffed or not.. it's about WHY a unit WOULD be buffed.
Ultralisks I think are pretty good in all match ups. In ZvT, they're not that great in isolation, but food cycling ultalisks after making broodlords is extremely effective. After the infestor buff, food cycling isn't really necessary in late game ZvT, so we don't see it that often anymore. But it used to be standard late game ZvT, and it worked really well.
I'd like to see seeker missile revamped on ravens. Neglecting the mothership, It's the most expensive spell on the most expensive caster (gas-wise), but it's only really good if the opponent stacks his air units and neglects to run away (or has battlecruisers/carriers, which can't).
On August 14 2011 05:09 SafeAsCheese wrote: Only terran has units it doesn't bother to use.
Z/P has ultra/carrier. Ultra are awful except against other zergs (lol roaches) and carriers are too expensive to mass in pro games if protoss opponent doesn't turtle for 40 minutes.
ah ok
when a terran doesnt make a battle cruiser its because hes lazy
when a protoss doesnt make a carrier its because they are bad units
sure thing buddy.
the problem with protoss and terran heavy fliers are 2 fold.
their lack or armor means they get destroyed by fast attack units such as the hydra and marine, units they should in theory be used to fight. giving them 1-2 more base armor, or make their armor upgrades easier to get to (as ground units will probably be +3 before the heavy ship comes out).
secondly carriers and battle cruisers both require air control in the traditional game play, and taking 60 seconds at a tech labbed starport is cutting your production of the units actually giving you air control (vikings) by 4-5 times, possibly giving up air control to the other guy
they arent bad units, they are just badly designed ; /
On August 14 2011 05:09 SafeAsCheese wrote: Only terran has units it doesn't bother to use.
Z/P has ultra/carrier. Ultra are awful except against other zergs (lol roaches) and carriers are too expensive to mass in pro games if protoss opponent doesn't turtle for 40 minutes.
have you see the recent DRG games where he go for a ling bling infestor ultra composition late game in zvp? it works alright I guess.
As for carriers, lol. Its not that its that bad of a unit, but its just that when compared to the lower tier protoss air unit (voidray), the carrier isnt much stronger at all considering the investment you have to put in to get carriers.
On August 14 2011 04:26 Eknoid4 wrote: Just because you don't use a unit a lot doesn't mean it doesn't get used or doesn't have a use. Infestors weren't used for a long time even after their most recent buff. They are still underused and most p/t players think they're quite powerful.
lol? I literally cannot remember the last time I played a zerg that did not use infestors as a major if not main unit in their composition, it was before the patch to be sure.
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
On August 14 2011 05:24 Bleak wrote: Raven needs a buff, definitely:
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
Anyone remember Scouts? Blizzard tried a few times buffing them but they never were a player in any Protoss army.
I think some units are so volatile that either they are near useless or borderline "op", many people within the community said the Reaper was that kind of unit, either it will suck and barely ever get made or it will be abused to no end. That is one of the units they cant buff or nerf without severe changes in gameplay so i hope they remove that unit.
The one unit i think could really gain from a simple buff is the Carrier, we barely see them and just a slight increase in damage or decrease in cost might make them more viable.
Give Ravens a speed upgrade instead of the energy upgrade. Now they can operate separately from an army outside of TvT, and may actually land Seeker Missiles.
Restrict Neural Parasite to ground units -- now BCs can be used against Zerg. Adjust the Corruptor to be weaker at soloing massive air and better at everything else. (Remove +massive, increase Corruption to +40-50% damage.)
Let Ultras walk over Broodlings and Zerglings.
Give the Fleet Beacon a faster impact on the game. Right now, it unlocks +2 air for your existing air units, and two very slow-building units that will take a long time to matter. (My favorite solution is to make the Mothership spawn with at least 100 mana.)
Switch Reaper from Biological Light to Biological. This has no effect on early Reaper play but gives them a potential place fighting ling/baneling, and renders them viable against hellions.
On August 14 2011 05:31 partisan wrote: I think they could make carriers and bcs slightly more viable by making the tech cost similar to other trees.
I think if the fleet beacon cost the same as a robo bay, you might see it used more often.
Carrier and BC tech costs are already similar to other trees. Fleet Beacon + Graviton Catapult costs 450/350, compared to 400/400 for Robotics Bay and Extended Thermal Lances. Templar Archives + Psionic Storm, and Fusion Core + Yamato + Tech Lab have a similar price. (I'm not counting Factory/Starport or Core/Twilight/Starport/Robo in the tech costs.)
The Fusion Core and the Fleet Beacon just don't have very attractive unlocks overall.
On August 14 2011 05:24 Bleak wrote: Raven needs a buff, definitely:
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
not sure if trolling or bronze.
Care to elaborate instead of spitting out pointless words?
I'm a diamond terran and I'm not trolling. Read the second line (the one with change it to be in-line with the above change). Read it again. Read it aloud. If you don't understand, I'm going to assume your comment above for you.
About the battlecruiser - I think this unit was used (prepatch) in exactly the same manner it is today (speaking about pro games). I think TvT is the only time I've seen a battlecruiser used as a legitimate strategy in a pro game. They just seem useless in the other matchups due to neural parasite (and corruptors to an extent) and stalkers.
I would, though, like to see a change to the battlecruiser. I don't think it has its role as a powerful capital ship that it should... Like the carrier.
On August 14 2011 05:31 partisan wrote: I think they could make carriers and bcs slightly more viable by making the tech cost similar to other trees.
I think if the fleet beacon cost the same as a robo bay, you might see it used more often.
Carrier and BC tech costs are already similar to other trees. Fleet Beacon + Graviton Catapult costs 450/350, compared to 400/400 for Robotics Bay and Extended Thermal Lances. Templar Archives + Psionic Storm, and Fusion Core + Yamato + Tech Lab have a similar price. (I'm not counting Factory/Starport or Core/Twilight/Starport/Robo in the tech costs.)
The Fusion Core and the Fleet Beacon just don't have very attractive unlocks overall.
Carriers are not good unmassed as well.
6 colossus is scary as shit
6 carriers? Not that scary, especially against corruptors/vikings.
Colossus to mass splash DPS to kill ground units. Without them, the stalker ball cannot kill a roach/ling army very fast so the zerg can make thoe 15 corruptors to own the carriers without many qualms.
Every unit is situational[why is this word sp?] as unit says. Blizzard shouldn't buff so certain units see more use if the units have situations where they are useful. They should buff if they don't like the way a race is played. (Humans in Wc3 doing tower builds received a lot of criticism for being boring).
Ultras are bad? By themselves yeah. But with support they have helped me win quite a few games. What I do think needs a buff tho is the Viking ground attack. A stimmed marine with a tiny rifle can out dps 2 Gatling guns??? I feel if the Viking ground mode should have to be researched and the ground attack buffed.
The game is far too young to talk about useless units at this point, if each matchup gets figured out stops evolving we can talk about useless units. As far as we know Terran could discover some mech play that carriers are the answer for, or zerg could use a style that sprinkling in 1-3 BC's becomes an essential part of maintaining map presence.
On August 14 2011 05:24 Bleak wrote: Raven needs a buff, definitely:
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
not sure if trolling or bronze.
Care to elaborate instead of spitting out pointless words?
I'm a diamond terran and I'm not trolling. Read the second line (the one with change it to be in-line with the above change). Read it again. Read it aloud. If you don't understand, I'm going to assume your comment above for you.
Think about what hsm can do in TvT with army positioning (how it forces air back half a map). Raven's need NO buff, they're already strong. If they only had pdd and couldn't detect, they'd still be strong. Raven's out of reactors? Why?
I'm pretty sure the reaper is awesome. However, you'd have to go with a huge barracks count or mech in order to be able to take the time to make reapers (long build time :/)
On August 14 2011 05:24 Bleak wrote: Raven needs a buff, definitely:
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
not sure if trolling or bronze.
Care to elaborate instead of spitting out pointless words?
I'm a diamond terran and I'm not trolling. Read the second line (the one with change it to be in-line with the above change). Read it again. Read it aloud. If you don't understand, I'm going to assume your comment above for you.
Think about what hsm can do in TvT with army positioning (how it forces air back half a map). Raven's need NO buff, they're already strong. If they only had pdd and couldn't detect, they'd still be strong. Raven's out of reactors? Why?
I would like to say that a low gas army+Starport play such as MMM would be a good idea for ravens and that raven auto-turret harass is (almost) free. (Just a small energy cost) However, mass ravens are expensive, and are very slow and fragile. I would like to see *maybe* a small speed buff. Currently, one is only able to get maybe a few ravens for detection+PDD.
Remove HSM, give Irradiate, the same spell the Science Vessel has in BW. Not only would irradiate actually be better than HSM in TvZ but it would also help a great deal against those mass zealots we see in late game TvP which I think are the biggest problem for terran especially when upgraded colossus and stalkers are supporting them.
Give back the ultralisk splash, or give them an in between of the splash now and then. Perhaps increase their movement speed slightly more? Ultras are fine though, it's just that zerglings are so fast that they end up getting in the way of the ultra, so a way to fix this could be to give more movement priority for ultras over zerglings but no priority over other units like roaches, hydras, infestors, queens and banelings probably. So either return the splash or give them movement priority over zerglings.
Mothership should just be removed, give the protoss the arbiter back for HotS. And the Carrier is also a fine unit, it's hard to get to but it's possible and it's strong.
On August 14 2011 05:24 Bleak wrote: Raven needs a buff, definitely:
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
not sure if trolling or bronze.
Care to elaborate instead of spitting out pointless words?
I'm a diamond terran and I'm not trolling. Read the second line (the one with change it to be in-line with the above change). Read it again. Read it aloud. If you don't understand, I'm going to assume your comment above for you.
Think about what hsm can do in TvT with army positioning (how it forces air back half a map). Raven's need NO buff, they're already strong. If they only had pdd and couldn't detect, they'd still be strong. Raven's out of reactors? Why?
Because the production facilities that you need to churn them out are needed for another unit, Medivacs, which is the backbone of Terran army in every matchup! Unless you make them early in the game (in which case you get behind, unless you're preparing to all-in) you don't have time or attention or the money to get some techlab starports to make ravens. Especially to get the upgrades. It just doesn't work, you need gas for tanks, medivacs and upgrades. A lot of gas. You can't afford to get thme both unless you're on 6-7 bases and your opponent is so clueless that you can pull of anything and survive.
Right now I feel like a lot of abilities are still undiscovered as of potential, Ravens are being used more and more now and even Bomber is getting hunter seeker and doing pretty well with it (if you claim ravens are not cost effective, try firing a hunter seeker into a clump of mutas). Also a raven is not out of a tech path of a standard build, a raven build can be standard its just not as much explored as of yet and players have not figured out the effectiveness and ways they can use the abilities completely yet. I do feel like some units do need changes though, some maybe even taken out of the game and replaced with more fitting units to take the role of the previous unit (mothership etc.).
On August 14 2011 05:24 Bleak wrote: Raven needs a buff, definitely:
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
not sure if trolling or bronze.
Care to elaborate instead of spitting out pointless words?
I'm a diamond terran and I'm not trolling. Read the second line (the one with change it to be in-line with the above change). Read it again. Read it aloud. If you don't understand, I'm going to assume your comment above for you.
Think about what hsm can do in TvT with army positioning (how it forces air back half a map). Raven's need NO buff, they're already strong. If they only had pdd and couldn't detect, they'd still be strong. Raven's out of reactors? Why?
Because the production facilities that you need to churn them out are needed for another unit, Medivacs, which is the backbone of Terran army in every matchup! Unless you make them early in the game (in which case you get behind, unless you're preparing to all-in) you don't have time or attention or the money to get some techlab starports to make ravens. Especially to get the upgrades. It just doesn't work, you need gas for tanks, medivacs and upgrades. A lot of gas. You can't afford to get thme both unless you're on 6-7 bases and your opponent is so clueless that you can pull of anything and survive.
How are ravens hard to get? You maybe stop medivac production for 1 cycle? Terrans greatest assets are switching tech labs with reactors. Switch a reactor starport with a tech lab on another building, make a raven then switch back to reactor. Suddenly you now have an great unit which clears creep and baneling mines in TvZ, PDD and detection for DTs in TvP and PDD for TvT which is invaluable for air control.
On August 14 2011 06:18 theBizness wrote: Obviously there needs to be an option to turn a a Nexus INTO a mothership for low cost.
You know people will put this aside, but if anyone ever played Dawn of War 1 and played the Necrons...their base started off as being immobile..and when you hair tier3 it was a fully functional moving tower with contruction abilities...
On August 14 2011 06:18 theBizness wrote: Obviously there needs to be an option to turn a a Nexus INTO a mothership for low cost.
You know people will put this aside, but if anyone ever played Dawn of War 1 and played the Necrons...their base started off as being immobile..and when you hair tier3 it was a fully functional moving tower with contruction abilities...
just a thought..
I want ground walking Leviathan, morphing from Hive.
prism
- Sentry drop - mobile pylon with dark templars and powerful warp - colosus fast drop
I think ultras have been used for enough time for people to realise they are quite bad. 6 brood lords can destroy a Terran army. 6 ultras barely reach the Terran army. Carriers are clearly terrible, after watching how they like to perish vs Vikings and corruptors. I think mass void Ray is better than mass carrier even though they both suck.
The other unused units such as warp prism and Raven are actually really good. Raven is a staple of TvT, part of the unbeatable TvP build and should be used vs Zerg for land mines and clearing creep. The warp prism is really good against Zerg. As Zergs try and create more deathballish armies and not mobile ones which can secure more bases, warp prisms can be used to great effect. Sniping key tech structures and annoying expansions with zealots is great against Zergs who don't make roaches. Lings get eaten if the zealot engages at the correct spot. Banelings waste gas on mineral only units. Infestors must use energy, and brood lords are too slow.
Protoss players need to realize that against a death balling zerg, they can defend far away expansions with nothing but cannons, 1 archon and a few ht.
On August 14 2011 06:18 theBizness wrote: Obviously there needs to be an option to turn a a Nexus INTO a mothership for low cost.
You know people will put this aside, but if anyone ever played Dawn of War 1 and played the Necrons...their base started off as being immobile..and when you hair tier3 it was a fully functional moving tower with contruction abilities...
just a thought..
I want ground walking Leviathan, morphing from Hive.
- Sentry drop - mobile pylon with dark templars and powerful warp - colosus fast drop
Sentry drop? it's not cost effective and they do so little damage. In contrast to stim marines medi drop, you can't try throw away those high gas units. who does Colossus drop? prism is so fragile
Some one earlier mentioned giving Ultralisks unit walking towards zerglings. This seems fairly reasonable to me. Mainly just because when I use that particular combination, it seems like my ultras never get to do the damage that I think they can do because the lings are in the way.
But I do think that the ultra hasn't really been that explored. Sure infestor/ultra is a good composition against Terran, but what is the benefit of using it over infestor/broodlord? Because I think the latter could be pretty devestating as well.
SC2 is still evolving and I don't really see unit changes being necessary to get it to a stable state at the moment.
I watch a shitload of Sc2 tournaments but theres only one unit that really falls into that section.
The Carrier.
I've seen zergs use ultras successfully in every match up*, seen dozens of reaper openers, raven uses, transistions to BC's, motherships popping and even bloody hydra's have there niche's.
But carriers, man, carriers never get used seriously. Probably because the only Terran in the world that seems to go pure mech against protoss on a regular basis is Goody.
*Check Nestea vs July in GSL July for Ultralisk ZvZ.
THE Ultralisk is Underused purely because The Thor has a cannon that can kill it. since Zergs dont use ultras, terrans dont use cannons :D
joking aside, Ultras in BW were used as melee meatshields. In Sc2 they are too big and have bad pathing to be used that way(plus units atk faster than their BW counterparts and the extra 200 hp the ultra has compared to its counterpart doesnt blance that)
Even though ultras are so monstrous, they are unable to walk through other smaller units like the collossus can Q.Q
On August 14 2011 05:24 Bleak wrote: Raven needs a buff, definitely:
Reduce the cost (150/150), and make them available from reactor starports. Change all of its abilities to be in line with the above so it doesn't become imbalanced. Remove HSM, or make it move faster as time goes on. In either case, it's really terrible. PDD is great, might think about reducing its energy cost. Auto-turrets aren't that useful, either reduce energy cost/buff their damage and armor, or remove them entirely.
not sure if trolling or bronze.
Care to elaborate instead of spitting out pointless words?
I'm a diamond terran and I'm not trolling. Read the second line (the one with change it to be in-line with the above change). Read it again. Read it aloud. If you don't understand, I'm going to assume your comment above for you.
Think about what hsm can do in TvT with army positioning (how it forces air back half a map). Raven's need NO buff, they're already strong. If they only had pdd and couldn't detect, they'd still be strong. Raven's out of reactors? Why?
Because the production facilities that you need to churn them out are needed for another unit, Medivacs, which is the backbone of Terran army in every matchup! Unless you make them early in the game (in which case you get behind, unless you're preparing to all-in) you don't have time or attention or the money to get some techlab starports to make ravens. Especially to get the upgrades. It just doesn't work, you need gas for tanks, medivacs and upgrades. A lot of gas. You can't afford to get thme both unless you're on 6-7 bases and your opponent is so clueless that you can pull of anything and survive.
Pretty sure I can spend the 175 gas on another tech lab starport, it's not very costly. Ravens coming out of reactors seem too strong (imagine 8 minute marine raven timing except now you have two ravens.
I think that unused units will one day be used widely only because players are getting more and more creative in their builds. Who though mass blue-flame hellions was a viable strategy. I remember a year ago everyone was going reapers and then for a while it was only Marine,Marauder, Medivacs. Zergs used to just go roach hydra or ling and muta but strategies have expanded. People aren't even 4-gating that much anymore and people are continuing to come out with more creative strategies that counter old ones and are even better. I remember everyone thought the way Spanishiwa used the nydus networks and ultralisks were really creative and awesome but soon a counter was made for that too. I'm sure soon someone will come out with something creative for the underused units in Starcraft 2 and you must realize it's only been a little over a year. Remember in SC1 how everyone though vultures were useless, couple years down the line they are the most OP units in BW. =P
The warp prism needs a buff, if any of you were watching Hero's stream last night then you saw him lose like 3 of them after doing almost no damage even with the speed upgrade.
The ultralisk needs to be able to step over lings like the colossus, makes no sense that it naturally makes itself worthless, other units could use at least a sidegrade, people think that buffing means simply making it better in all forms, you can take stats away too to compensate...
Carriers are a good unit but not as strong as they could be. Their interceptor shields don't regenerate upon return to the carrier, so marines etc just shred them and then the carrier has no offensive potential
The build time is also pretty much insane, I love carriers and if you do get them out I think they have potential for space control, but it's just so difficult to do vs opponents who aren't idiots
On August 13 2011 23:22 Olsson wrote: There are two types of unused units:
Undiscovered: Units like BC, Raven and Warp Prism are undiscovered and relatively unknown how they can be put into gameplay and be used in good ways. Raven is only used in some TvP all-in scenarios and recently in the mech style of TvT, both times just for PDD.
Shitty: Units like the Ultralisk and Hydras that are not used as frequently (yeah sure Hydras some times in ZvP very special scenarios like stargate, otherwise not standard) just suck and needs buffs to become useful. Reaper might be one of them but personally I find four reapers and then stopping there without speed to be very deadly against hatch first builds or later speed builds as queen is the only defence.
Clearly someone plays zerg. Undiscovered units are "undiscovered" because they may have shortcomings that make them very hard to use (and perhaps not wroth it). The distinction you make isn't very valid.
I think Blizzard is going to wait for HotS before they make any major unit changes. They have already said they are thinking about completely overhauling certain units like the corruptor and the overseer because they don't seem to have enough use. They might use this as the chance to change things up. I agree with what other people in the thread have said, as in a lot of the units are just "undiscovered". You can't deny that ghosts weren't really used extensively in TvP, but now they are a core unit in the mid to late game. Ravens are definitely showing up more and more in TvT thanks to auto turrets and PDDs (TvP as well). We saw Bomber use a Raven for pdd in TvZ. QXC is starting to use ravens in TvZ, too. We just need to give the game more time to develop, and we will start seeing new strategies and techniques that incorporate new/different units.
On August 13 2011 23:07 Jombozeus wrote: Just because an unit is unused doesn't mean its bad, more like just undiscovered.
Many a times units just don't get used because there's a better alternative at that moment and theres no need to try something new (remember zerg and protoss back in february?). If you buff carriers unnecessarily, suddenly an unbeatable carrier timing comes out and derps the game.
Not saying buffs shouldn't happen, but strategies need more time to settle before Blizz can attempt to change the game.
I somewhat disagree. If the koreans also aren't using them (outside of late late game situations, see Rain v BoxeR from MLG), then there's probably a reason that there isn't a strat involving them outside a cheesy usage. You're right, once that semi cheese comes to surface, a few threads will pop up, but nothing that will probably break the game.
Look at infestors in ZvT. Sure, us terrans complained for a while, but now almost nobody is crying imba. Muta is still the standard.
However, if something like blue flame comes to pass, it could very well change every thing. However, BFH is a mineral sink, allowing it to change the game. The problem with strike cannon or ultralisks are that they are gas heavy.
Just my thoughts. (high diamond playing against masters!)
EPT
