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On July 22 2011 10:08 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:06 cskalias.pbe wrote:
So many people here will hang on ONE word or ONE phrase and not understand the general idea the person is talking about, and will rant for 250 pages about how "right" they are.
Who cares if they cut milkis off because he doesn't have a fucking argument. If he's basic argument is that EG was disrespectiful, then FINE, just say that and the topic is done. If his argument is that this is bad for the scene and for the players, then I have NO idea when or how he made that point. His argument is : feel sad for Coach Lee because.... I mean you can't do this because this is always how we've done this.
Whereas AG is trying to grow the entire esport scene as a whole and not make in a "korean" scene. He is afraid that all the korean organizations will band together and make it even more difficult for foreign teams to get involved and trade players, which is totally understandable given how KESPA currently operates.
I love Milkis, and his translations. But as an SC2 fan and teamliquid member, I just don't know why you are all upset and taking his side. What IS his side? I love SC2 more than coach lee. I love sc2 more than being 100% proper in every conceivable player negotiation. The point is that it's generally seen as rude to interrupt someone. What does it matter if his point wasn't good? At least have some fucking manners.
Obviously it's not appropriate to interrupt someone when they are speaking. But when the forums are focusing more on that fact that AG is interrupting Milkis than on the fact that AG is making a good argument, well I dunno, go be proud and wrong?
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On July 22 2011 10:08 Longshank wrote:
I'm usually a fan of Wheat but this episode was disgusting, I never thought I'd see him kiss someones butt like he did today.
"Yeah Alex, you know I agree with you but this is a topic for another time"
WTF wheat : /
What's wrong with that?
Sooner or later (Im guessing sooner) there is going to be a long serious pretty damn unpleasent discussion about the power / responsibility of TL and what exactly constitutes staff here and what the expectations for reporting Esports news are. But that's another issue for another day, it would take far longer then they had and completely drown out the purpose of tonights show to crack it open now.
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On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!!
One thing is clear, there was clearly no GG at the end of that game. So bm!!
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While I think part about Alex Garfield made about Milkis and the translator bit was wrong, he was pretty spot on regarding the acquisition. But I imagine it'll get buried under the immediate rage as it's easy to live in a fantasy world where there's pride, honor and playing for fun when in reality it's all about the money considering their performance dictates where their career goes.
Ultimately it was Puma's choice to leave TSL. If he as a Korean felt the pride with sticking with TSL was worth it he wouldn't have left the team. He wasn't coerced into immediately signing a contract with EG so the people saying EG is ruining esports need to take off their hatereade glasses and actually thinking about this rationally.
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On July 22 2011 10:11 meep wrote:
I felt that DJWheat's little speech was a little pathetic and was just an attempt to cover up the horribad that was his show tonight.
I thought it was a nice way to wrap it up. I enjoyed the show, was pretty insightful.
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On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!"
I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)?
HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Imagine if HuK left for some other team (without telling TLoGs first) because there was more money. Would it be seen as okay to TLoGs?
Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount.
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On July 22 2011 10:08 hoby2000 wrote:
Milkis, your job is to translate
Milkis can do whatever he wants on TL that moderation doesn't disapprove of, like any other user, you have no place telling him in what manner he can volunteer his time for the community.
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Puma's thoughts on the matter: "I thought everything went fine with the whole deal. What's all this ruckus?" via twitter.
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So, after all is said, it was not so much drama as some would have wanted it to be, some mistakes from EG/Puma/Choach and in the end all is well. The guy isn't even a EG player yet, someone went to to "the press" before the whole thing was even close to being finished.
Even the much needed discussion on global organisation was touched on, the thing that is needed for a real step into the world of sports.
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On July 22 2011 10:09 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:08 cskalias.pbe wrote:On July 22 2011 10:05 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:04 trikshun wrote:
The only reason why people are siding with Milkis is because they don't understand Business or anything about the international market. Dont say stuff like that without putting any argumentation behind it. I can say "Everyone who sides with EG are fucking retarded!" but I dont, cus that´s stupid to say. If you were watching SOTG, then you got the argument behind it. If you knew something about business or the international market, you wouldn't have needed to watch SOTG to know AG is right. It's hillarious how everyone is calling bias when there's blatant bias the other way around here in this thread like crazy, isn't it?
How's there bias in this thread? Both sides are arguing their own opinions and while there are more supporting Milkis and the Koreans, it's a pretty open-ended discussion here on the thread.
Wheat has a very close association with EG and the international esports scene in general, and while I'm not accusing him of bias, and given that he's hosting the show you have to take that into consideration.
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On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love.
except no one is mad that Puma got signed with EG. It's how it happened.
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If you don't want to pay your team members be prepared to lose them to someone who will, how is this even a discussion.
There was no contract EG was free to say and do whatever they want with Puma. With no contract TSL didn't even need to be considered, any consideration would have been a nicety that was not necessary as they didn't even sign puma yet.
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On July 22 2011 09:48 Mioraka wrote:
WTF wheat? Why the fuck do you stop milkis every fucking time he starts talking?
Is this 2 vs 1 or something? Why do you never stop AG?
Especially when he's trying to explain himself from an accusation.
+1
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On July 22 2011 10:06 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:03 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:00 nam nam wrote:On July 22 2011 09:58 VillageBC wrote:
milki's can't just hide behind the 'i'm just translating' label while at the same time slanting that translation with his bias. I don't care, I think EG is right.. Milki's is overly concerned with Korean culture and TL is ruining e-sports. If the translations is accurate he can say whatever he likes about it. You know like any of us. But to be fair, when Milkis then continues on to say things like "if you don't understand why this is such a big deal, then you just don't understand Korean culture" in a pretty condescending manner. It's obvious that Milkis was very biased in how he carried out the whole thing. His job was to present the Korean side of the story, which I disagree with. It's kind of time for Koreans to understand that SC2 is becoming globalized and start to protect their players as they're competing with foreign teams now. However I lost a ton of respect for AG when he started attacking Milkis for his post. It was unnecessary and Milkis, as a translator should only post a translation of what was put on ThisIsGame and PlayXP. Which is what he did. Other translators would have done the same.
Yeah, his translations on themselves didn't have any fault to it, here AG really just went left field and it was a very thinly veiled personal attack, and he's an idiot for attempting such a low handed tactic. It were his messages after and outside of the translation that he let his opinions out, and I don't think there's really a big problem with that. Here it's just that I utterly disagree with his opinions, but the things the translators post on TL don't carry personal baggage.
The whole thing was a trainwreck. It is going to be incredibly difficult to take wheat seriously for me after this.
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I really do not see the problem. You guys are seriously going nuts.
1. Puma was not on a contract
2. Puma made the decision to go
3. Going around the team is not even shady as there where no contract - Puma can do as he wants
4. Puma will properly get paid now regardless of prizes - which is good.
5. Neither EG nor Puma apparently has no obligations towards TSL - besides moral ones.
So why cant we be happy for Puma and EG? I mean, it sounds like good old butt-hurt to me, and frankly that is just as childish and selfish as anything else.
Just my 2c
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When you look at Milkis' original translation, and realise that it was less of a direct translation and more of an amalgamation of two articles of translation, then you can see where AG is coming from with the journalism aspect.
If Milkis had purely translated both articles verbatim then he could have gone "GTFO anyone else could have translated that, I have no responsibility"
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On July 22 2011 10:11 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" yea, his entire final thoughts just highlighted Western views and being ignorant of how esports is treated in Korea. the whole "im putting on my American tinted glasses and ignoring Korea here... I want the best Koreans to play on American teams" thing was a huge wtf.
same could be said of the korean scene?
"imma expect the western world to learn every little detail of how korean esports work and ignore how things work outside korea cause we own these players with non written contracts"
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On July 22 2011 10:12 KanoCoke wrote:
Puma's thoughts on the matter: "I thought everything went fine with the whole deal. What's all this ruckus?" via twitter.
The fact he used the words ruckus makes him the winner of this whole bullshit argument.
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On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!!
AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began.
I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant.
My god that was a complete slaughter...
Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.
zz
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On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount.
The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly.
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EPT
