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On July 22 2011 10:14 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. I think most of the backlash isn't from the money involved it's that EG went and didn't respect the korean culture, and didn't even contact the team that they were trying to get a player from. I don't think anyone is mad that PuMa left because he was offered salary, but the way EG handled getting him to leave TSL and eventually contract him.
And how did EG even handle it poorly? I'm sorry, but you're an idiot if you think EG is in the wrong here. They didn't puprosely circumvent the coach - PUMA is the one who decided that it would be better if he (as in Puma) talked to his coach about it. What EG did was what they thought was right, because that's what Puma said would be right. So even the way EG went about talking to Puma wasn't even bad. Xeris said himself that it's not uncommon AT ALL for teams to talk to other players of teams, to inform them that there team is looking to pick up new players. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, and if you believe there is nothing wrong with it, then EG has done nothing wrong.
I feel like explaining to people why saying "How EG went about it was disrepctful and wrong" is dumb is becoming fruitless. USE YOUR MOTHER FUCKING BRAINS.
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On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Imagine if HuK left for some other team (without telling TLoGs first) because there was more money. Would it be seen as okay to TLoGs? Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount.
He left Millenium to join TL, or are our attention spans so short...
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Puma didn't have any contract with TSL because that's how Asian culture work. They base on ethnic and trust, not a legal paper. You guys probably haven't seen Chinese ppl borrow millions dollars from others with just a single word right?
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On July 22 2011 10:13 Phaded wrote:
When you look at Milkis' original translation, and realise that it was less of a direct translation and more of an amalgamation of two articles of translation, then you can see where AG is coming from with the journalism aspect.
If Milkis had purely translated both articles verbatim then he could have gone "GTFO anyone else could have translated that, I have no responsibility"
His post was a summary of two of the articles, and had very little bias in it. What AG was picking at him on was his subsequent twits, which were somewhat bias.
But still, it was a small issue and did not change the whole substance of the original post. Which is why what AG did sounded more like a personal attack on Milkis's credibility than anything else. It was really unnecessary.
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On July 22 2011 10:13 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began. I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant. My god that was a complete slaughter... Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.zz
WRONG, have you been paying no attention? Milkis put his attempt at communication on twitter, a decidedly PUBLIC means of sending a message, usually meant more to be read by many then by a few, and you wonder why EG doesn't immediately respond? Have you no idea how public opinion works? Milkis effectively cut AG off at the very start, so quit your whining.
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developed him as a player? he was in estro for bw his mechanics are rock solid. sounds like bs from the coach
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On July 22 2011 10:14 Scribble wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:04 Senx wrote:
My god, what is up with EG constantly upsetting the community? It's the NASL effect. They do something initially that polarizes the community, pick up a lot of haters, and these haters irrationally latch on to anything they can in order to rationalize their hate.
That's this thread in a nutshell.
Anyone who hasn't read the past ~9001 pages of this thread, READ QUOTED POST!
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On July 22 2011 10:16 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:14 shavi wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. I think most of the backlash isn't from the money involved it's that EG went and didn't respect the korean culture, and didn't even contact the team that they were trying to get a player from. I don't think anyone is mad that PuMa left because he was offered salary, but the way EG handled getting him to leave TSL and eventually contract him. On July 22 2011 10:14 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. except no one is mad that Puma got signed with EG. It's how it happened. they asked him and he said yes? that is what happened. he is a adult he can drink from a adult glass. Yes, but he had also been on a team for 10 months, and while no there wasn't a contract they made no effort to contact TSL at all outside of PuMa. You don't think there's something inherently wrong / shady with that? Korean culture aside, what Garfield said is true. If you don't have your players on contract, then there's always the risk of losing them. At the end of the day, business is a field of sharks and manners and respect don't always matter.
Again, I don't have a problem with EG acquiring a player from any team. I just find it rather disrespectful to not even talk to the team regarding a player you're talking to. Obviously it was pretty dumb not to have him contracted (but it's not like that would have mattered, EG would have still gotten him I'm assuming), but the fact that they didn't even try to contact TSL.
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On July 22 2011 10:14 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. I think most of the backlash isn't from the money involved it's that EG went and didn't respect the korean culture, and didn't even contact the team that they were trying to get a player from. I don't think anyone is mad that PuMa left because he was offered salary, but the way EG handled getting him to leave TSL and eventually contract him. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:14 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. except no one is mad that Puma got signed with EG. It's how it happened. they asked him and he said yes? that is what happened. he is a adult he can drink from a adult glass. Yes, but he had also been on a team for 10 months, and while no there wasn't a contract they made no effort to contact TSL at all outside of PuMa. You don't think there's something inherently wrong / shady with that?
No, Why does the foreign scene have to bend over backwards for Korean culture at every turn, when do they do some bending? anywhere else a free agent is a free agent. and he wasnt "poached" or harrassed they had a nice conversation and he wanted to leave tsl (like so many other members have already). If they had such a issue with it they would have offered him a deal as well to counter it.
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I feel like Wheat was obviously put into an awkward position and did the best he could but it was genuinely ridiculous at times.
At one point he mentioned a question and AG talked for like... 6-7 minutes and then asks, "So, to answer your question... What was the question?"
Meanwhile, Milkis gets like two sentences in and then we get a, "Let me just stop you there" or "-Well, in response... 5 more minutes of explanation".
Finally, the point regarding Milkis as a journalist was absolutely idiotic. If you're going to hold him to journalistic standards, then I'm going to hold you to community standards, if you have something to say, say it. It's a forum, not an article, he gets a post, you get a post, he gives the TSL side, you give the EG side, it gets added to the OP, whether by Milkis himself, or one of the many TL mods.
Seriously, for every point you make in regards to "Well, now you're a journalist because I say so", there's a counter-point of, well he's a member of the community, and you can and should be too.
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On July 22 2011 10:17 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:16 zoLo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:14 shavi wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. I think most of the backlash isn't from the money involved it's that EG went and didn't respect the korean culture, and didn't even contact the team that they were trying to get a player from. I don't think anyone is mad that PuMa left because he was offered salary, but the way EG handled getting him to leave TSL and eventually contract him. On July 22 2011 10:14 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. except no one is mad that Puma got signed with EG. It's how it happened. they asked him and he said yes? that is what happened. he is a adult he can drink from a adult glass. Yes, but he had also been on a team for 10 months, and while no there wasn't a contract they made no effort to contact TSL at all outside of PuMa. You don't think there's something inherently wrong / shady with that? Korean culture aside, what Garfield said is true. If you don't have your players on contract, then there's always the risk of losing them. At the end of the day, business is a field of sharks and manners and respect don't always matter. Doesn't mean you can't dislike EG for doing it.
So you dislike EG not on any factual basis, but on emotion. Ah, now I finally understand why people can take that side.
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On July 22 2011 10:06 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:03 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:00 nam nam wrote:On July 22 2011 09:58 VillageBC wrote:
milki's can't just hide behind the 'i'm just translating' label while at the same time slanting that translation with his bias. I don't care, I think EG is right.. Milki's is overly concerned with Korean culture and TL is ruining e-sports. If the translations is accurate he can say whatever he likes about it. You know like any of us. But to be fair, when Milkis then continues on to say things like "if you don't understand why this is such a big deal, then you just don't understand Korean culture" in a pretty condescending manner. It's obvious that Milkis was very biased in how he carried out the whole thing. His job was to present the Korean side of the story, which I disagree with. It's kind of time for Koreans to understand that SC2 is becoming globalized and start to protect their players as they're competing with foreign teams now. However I lost a ton of respect for AG when he started attacking Milkis for his post. It was unnecessary and Milkis, as a translator should only post a translation of what was put on ThisIsGame and PlayXP. Which is what he did. Other translators would have done the same.
I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory.
However, i don't think the main problem is with the whole reporting journalism thing, but the gullibility of some in the TL community, who make spontaneous decisions regarding an issue before hearing both sides of the story.
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On July 22 2011 10:11 DigitalisDestructi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:06 cskalias.pbe wrote:
So many people here will hang on ONE word or ONE phrase and not understand the general idea the person is talking about, and will rant for 250 pages about how "right" they are.
Who cares if they cut milkis off because he doesn't have a fucking argument. If he's basic argument is that EG was disrespectiful, then FINE, just say that and the topic is done. If his argument is that this is bad for the scene and for the players, then I have NO idea when or how he made that point. His argument is : feel sad for Coach Lee because.... I mean you can't do this because this is always how we've done this.
Whereas AG is trying to grow the entire esport scene as a whole and not make in a "korean" scene. He is afraid that all the korean organizations will band together and make it even more difficult for foreign teams to get involved and trade players, which is totally understandable given how KESPA currently operates.
I love Milkis, and his translations. But as an SC2 fan and teamliquid member, I just don't know why you are all upset and taking his side. What IS his side? I love SC2 more than coach lee. I love sc2 more than being 100% proper in every conceivable player negotiation. "Who cares if they cut milkis off because he doesn't have a fucking argument." Seriously? Milkis didn't ever deserve the right to at least finish his point, even if he's up against someone who's more well-versed in speech and debate? Fair game, that is not.
I have nothing against Milkis as a TL member, person, and translator, but I agree with many posters here that he just should not have put into this situation against AG. I don't even know who he is representing: himself, or is he just trying to convey a message from the team? Or a confusing mix of both.
My dismissal of Milki's argument had anything to do with him not being as well versed in public speaking as AG. It's not like I never understood him because he was being interrupted. It was just very clear to me from the start that he is on Coach lee's side, and on the side of a more Korean controlled scene. Whereas I am on Puma's side, and that of a more international presence.
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On July 22 2011 10:17 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:15 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount. The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly. "training environment" is pretty laughable. If EG was serious they would have their team actually training instead of traveling doing casting / streaming shows etc. They could have had a training house up 8 months ago if serious. Fact is the koreans are ahead of the game and instead of doing it themselves they simply tried to poach players. After Puma that wont work with korea contracting every player. streaming and stuff is how u make money from sponsors. do u think sponsors would pay shit if they never got exposure other than live events every 3 months? maybe that is why no korean sponsors pay the teams, cause they dont get them enough exposure
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201086
TSL had sponsored players that they did pay.
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On July 22 2011 10:15 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:13 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount. The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly. "training environment" is pretty laughable. If EG was serious they would have their team actually training instead of traveling doing casting / streaming shows etc. They could have had a training house up 8 months ago if serious. Fact is the koreans are ahead of the game and instead of doing it themselves they simply tried to poach players. After Puma that wont work with korea contracting every player.
That is beside the point though. The point is that it is better for the player, or at least he felt it was a better decision to take EG's offer. We are talking about business here, not high school football. If your employees are under-performing, you fire them and replace them with employees from other businesses, who are making less then you are currently offering. You don't give a courtesy call or beg for permission, you hire them, and the employees and your business both profit. No-one begrudges that, and TSL is living in a fantasy world if they think they have any say over the dealings of an unsigned, unpaid player, and other teams.
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On July 22 2011 10:15 dcsoda wrote:
First post here been reading for a good while. It seems to me that the original article was equally/more biased than this show was. And this issue seems to have gone past this incident because everyone is bringing up the cultural differences in play here.
I can completely understand TSL being upset but that does not give them the right to go on record with apparently false information. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of TL to the scene as a whole either, stuff posted here carries a lot of weight.
I'm just wondering but do people here want the two separate SC2 scenes: Korea and everywhere else? With the more global popularity of SC2 and the popularity of the Korean players I don't see how they plan to prevent this sort of merging happening and its something I think will be awesome to see Koreans on other teams, if you want the foreigners to begin taking the game and training more seriously is there a better way to do it than this?
We all want Koreans in foreign teams, it's just the way this had ended up has just shown people will never be happy. PuMa didn't have a contract and he won NASL, EG spoke to him and offered him a great opportunism, its TSL who wants him now because he has shown great results. If EG went to TSL before PuMa we probably wouldn't be speaking about this.
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On July 22 2011 10:14 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. I think most of the backlash isn't from the money involved it's that EG went and didn't respect the korean culture, and didn't even contact the team that they were trying to get a player from. I don't think anyone is mad that PuMa left because he was offered salary, but the way EG handled getting him to leave TSL and eventually contract him. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:14 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. except no one is mad that Puma got signed with EG. It's how it happened. they asked him and he said yes? that is what happened. he is a adult he can drink from a adult glass. Yes, but he had also been on a team for 10 months, and while no there wasn't a contract they made no effort to contact TSL at all outside of PuMa. You don't think there's something inherently wrong / shady with that?
The topic of talking to TSL came up. Puma said he'd do it, not EG. So, it seems like Puma may have badly fumbled that issue. Then Coach Lee went public with it, which is actually not a good thing from a business side.
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This is what I learned today:
Something happened.
Some people didnt like how it happened.
Other people thought it was fine, by their culture's practices.
Other people thought it was not fine as well, but dont care as long as esports grows.
Milkis is a journalist now.
something something strawman.
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On July 22 2011 10:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:13 Senx wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began. I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant. My god that was a complete slaughter... Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.zz WRONG, have you been paying no attention? Milkis put his attempt at communication on twitter, a decidedly PUBLIC means of sending a message, usually meant more to be read by many then by a few, and you wonder why EG doesn't immediately respond? Have you no idea how public opinion works? Milkis effectively cut AG off at the very start, so quit your whining.
All Milkis did was translate. Read the OP, the only thing that wasn't a direct translation was him paraphrasing another website and something Waxangel edited in (according to Milkis twitter) from the TSL coach, who isn't a TL community member (ie: doesn't have an account).
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On July 22 2011 10:13 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:11 eggs wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" yea, his entire final thoughts just highlighted Western views and being ignorant of how esports is treated in Korea. the whole "im putting on my American tinted glasses and ignoring Korea here... I want the best Koreans to play on American teams" thing was a huge wtf. same could be said of the korean scene? "imma expect the western world to learn every little detail of how korean esports work and ignore how things work outside korea cause we own these players with non written contracts"
Only problem with that is there are no other cases where it goes the other way bucko.
Looks like everyone here is a professional in International business lmao.
I hope some of you realize that things work differently depending on the culture/country. Everything from body language gestures to the business practice. Here's an oversimplification if I've ever heard one:
West - individualistic. Go Puma go!
Asian - collective whole. We work for the team!
In other words no one wins.
With that said, every player should have some sort of written agreement regardless of where they are and what the pay/terms are.
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EPT
