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On July 22 2011 10:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:13 Senx wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began. I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant. My god that was a complete slaughter... Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.zz WRONG, have you been paying no attention? Milkis put his attempt at communication on twitter, a decidedly PUBLIC means of sending a message, usually meant more to be read by many then by a few, and you wonder why EG doesn't immediately respond? Have you no idea how public opinion works? Milkis effectively cut AG off at the very start, so quit your whining.
So you mean EG doesn't read TL and can't PM milkis on twitter or here? Or just make a statement on their own? I'm really confused. Because I know they do read and post here.
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All opinions on this mater aside, I would like to commend Milkis for a great job. Perhaps you weren't always clear as to what you were trying to say, but being ganged up on my two EG affiliates for two hours must have been a challenge. And major props for talking through the interuptions towards the end! Keep on translating bro, it keeps corporations like EG honest.
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On July 22 2011 10:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:13 Senx wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began. I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant. My god that was a complete slaughter... Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.zz WRONG, have you been paying no attention? Milkis put his attempt at communication on twitter, a decidedly PUBLIC means of sending a message, usually meant more to be read by many then by a few, and you wonder why EG doesn't immediately respond? Have you no idea how public opinion works? Milkis effectively cut AG off at the very start, so quit your whining.
You can send private messages on twitter, if they sent him one and he didn't put it in the OP, then he's a dick, if they didn't then he has no obligation to. You can call him a journalist but he posted on a forum and so can EG, the EG statement would have been edited directly into the OP within an hour.
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On July 22 2011 10:18 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:06 pdd wrote:On July 22 2011 10:03 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:00 nam nam wrote:On July 22 2011 09:58 VillageBC wrote:
milki's can't just hide behind the 'i'm just translating' label while at the same time slanting that translation with his bias. I don't care, I think EG is right.. Milki's is overly concerned with Korean culture and TL is ruining e-sports. If the translations is accurate he can say whatever he likes about it. You know like any of us. But to be fair, when Milkis then continues on to say things like "if you don't understand why this is such a big deal, then you just don't understand Korean culture" in a pretty condescending manner. It's obvious that Milkis was very biased in how he carried out the whole thing. His job was to present the Korean side of the story, which I disagree with. It's kind of time for Koreans to understand that SC2 is becoming globalized and start to protect their players as they're competing with foreign teams now. However I lost a ton of respect for AG when he started attacking Milkis for his post. It was unnecessary and Milkis, as a translator should only post a translation of what was put on ThisIsGame and PlayXP. Which is what he did. Other translators would have done the same. I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory. However, i don't think the main problem is with the whole reporting journalism thing, but the gullibility of some in the TL community, who make spontaneous decisions regarding an issue before hearing both sides of the story.
Then wouldn't it be EG's responsibility to quell the shitstorm? Or PlayXP/TIS/TSL's fault for somewhat inaccurate reports? Why put the blame on Milkis?
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So from all this we can conclude 1 thing :p
Evil Geniuses live up to their name.
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On July 22 2011 10:18 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:17 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:16 zoLo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:14 shavi wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. I think most of the backlash isn't from the money involved it's that EG went and didn't respect the korean culture, and didn't even contact the team that they were trying to get a player from. I don't think anyone is mad that PuMa left because he was offered salary, but the way EG handled getting him to leave TSL and eventually contract him. On July 22 2011 10:14 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. except no one is mad that Puma got signed with EG. It's how it happened. they asked him and he said yes? that is what happened. he is a adult he can drink from a adult glass. Yes, but he had also been on a team for 10 months, and while no there wasn't a contract they made no effort to contact TSL at all outside of PuMa. You don't think there's something inherently wrong / shady with that? Korean culture aside, what Garfield said is true. If you don't have your players on contract, then there's always the risk of losing them. At the end of the day, business is a field of sharks and manners and respect don't always matter. Doesn't mean you can't dislike EG for doing it. So you dislike EG not on any factual basis, but on emotion. Ah, now I finally understand why people can take that side.
That's how liking or disliking something generally works, isn't it?
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On July 22 2011 10:12 cskalias.pbe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:08 Skullflower wrote:On July 22 2011 10:06 cskalias.pbe wrote:
So many people here will hang on ONE word or ONE phrase and not understand the general idea the person is talking about, and will rant for 250 pages about how "right" they are.
Who cares if they cut milkis off because he doesn't have a fucking argument. If he's basic argument is that EG was disrespectiful, then FINE, just say that and the topic is done. If his argument is that this is bad for the scene and for the players, then I have NO idea when or how he made that point. His argument is : feel sad for Coach Lee because.... I mean you can't do this because this is always how we've done this.
Whereas AG is trying to grow the entire esport scene as a whole and not make in a "korean" scene. He is afraid that all the korean organizations will band together and make it even more difficult for foreign teams to get involved and trade players, which is totally understandable given how KESPA currently operates.
I love Milkis, and his translations. But as an SC2 fan and teamliquid member, I just don't know why you are all upset and taking his side. What IS his side? I love SC2 more than coach lee. I love sc2 more than being 100% proper in every conceivable player negotiation. The point is that it's generally seen as rude to interrupt someone. What does it matter if his point wasn't good? At least have some fucking manners. Obviously it's not appropriate to interrupt someone when they are speaking. But when the forums are focusing more on that fact that AG is interrupting Milkis than on the fact that AG is making a good argument, well I dunno, go be proud and wrong?
That's the whole point. Milkis could be making a good argument if he wasn't constantly interrupted.
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On July 22 2011 10:19 InvalidID wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:15 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount. The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly. "training environment" is pretty laughable. If EG was serious they would have their team actually training instead of traveling doing casting / streaming shows etc. They could have had a training house up 8 months ago if serious. Fact is the koreans are ahead of the game and instead of doing it themselves they simply tried to poach players. After Puma that wont work with korea contracting every player. That is beside the point though. The point is that it is better for the player, or at least he felt it was a better decision to take EG's offer. We are talking about business here, not high school football. If your employees are under-performing, you fire them and replace them with employees from other businesses, who are making less then you are currently offering. You don't give a courtesy call or beg for permission, you hire them, and the employees and your business both profit. No-one begrudges that, and TSL is living in a fantasy world if they think they have any say over the dealings of an unsigned, unpaid player, and other teams.
listen everyone knows its a business move. IT's a business move when health insurance says "nope we wont cover this life saving operation because we dont have to" It doesnt make it any less unethical. TSL learned their lesson and so did all of korea and will not be sending players internationally without contracts, expect a crazy contract wave to happen before the next MLG.
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On July 22 2011 10:16 Grimsong wrote:
What's next?
SCII players in the State of Texas aren't allowed to play or have any coverage outside of it? Then all the sudden someone from Oklahoma comes over says hey I have a contract and you can play everywhere, not just Korea, and you'll have the backing of one of the biggest E-Sports teams out there. So the player runs off and can play in events in the other 49 states finally!
But the statewide scene would be best off being segragated from Texas.
Jesus.
Please remember that the original issue of the debate is the fact that EG never contact TSL management; hence, Coach Lee is mad about the lack of respect.
Unfortunately, this whole thing has gotten so off-tangent that no one's on the same page anymore.
EDIT: Also, it's a not fair debate when you've got a director of EG against a community member who happens to know Korean.
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So let me see if I get this straight since I haven't been following it very closely.
Coach Lee (or someone from TSL) made an official statement regarding the Puma issue
Milkis translated the official response and posted it in a thread on TL
EG releases no official information at all
EG blames Milkis for posting a biased news article
If I understood this right lets imagine that TSL was a foreign team and had released their official statement in english on their website. Milkis, or anyone else, then posted this statement in a thread on tl. Would that still be them releasing a biased article?
I doubt if that was the case EG would be blaming the poster of the thread since he's just highlighting information that was already available to all. The reason they're going after Milkis now is because he made information that was already available to the public understandable for everyone. I think that's quite low to be honest.
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Strange how all this drama has made me dislike EG and DJWheat...I use to like the DJ too.
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On July 22 2011 10:17 tuho12345 wrote:
Puma didn't have any contract with TSL because that's how Asian culture work. They base on ethnic and trust, not a legal paper. You guys probably haven't seen Chinese ppl borrow millions dollars from others with just a single word right?
Gullibility isn't a cultural thing. You see that kind of stupidity everywhere in the world, though your example is probably a bit too extreme.
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On July 22 2011 10:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:13 Senx wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began. I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant. My god that was a complete slaughter... Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.zz WRONG, have you been paying no attention? Milkis put his attempt at communication on twitter, a decidedly PUBLIC means of sending a message, usually meant more to be read by many then by a few, and you wonder why EG doesn't immediately respond? Have you no idea how public opinion works? Milkis effectively cut AG off at the very start, so quit your whining.
Yes, blame milkis for translating, rather then EG for not releasing any statement whatsoever.
Good thinking... ._.
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On July 22 2011 10:20 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:19 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:15 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount. The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly. "training environment" is pretty laughable. If EG was serious they would have their team actually training instead of traveling doing casting / streaming shows etc. They could have had a training house up 8 months ago if serious. Fact is the koreans are ahead of the game and instead of doing it themselves they simply tried to poach players. After Puma that wont work with korea contracting every player. That is beside the point though. The point is that it is better for the player, or at least he felt it was a better decision to take EG's offer. We are talking about business here, not high school football. If your employees are under-performing, you fire them and replace them with employees from other businesses, who are making less then you are currently offering. You don't give a courtesy call or beg for permission, you hire them, and the employees and your business both profit. No-one begrudges that, and TSL is living in a fantasy world if they think they have any say over the dealings of an unsigned, unpaid player, and other teams. listen everyone knows its a business move. IT's a business move when health insurance says "nope we wont cover this life saving operation because we dont have to" It doesnt make it any less unethical. TSL learned their lesson and so did all of korea and will not be sending players internationally without contracts, expect a crazy contract wave to happen before the next MLG.
How is it unethical to offer someone more money for doing a job, let alone someone who was not even being paid?
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On July 22 2011 10:18 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:06 pdd wrote:On July 22 2011 10:03 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:00 nam nam wrote:On July 22 2011 09:58 VillageBC wrote:
milki's can't just hide behind the 'i'm just translating' label while at the same time slanting that translation with his bias. I don't care, I think EG is right.. Milki's is overly concerned with Korean culture and TL is ruining e-sports. If the translations is accurate he can say whatever he likes about it. You know like any of us. But to be fair, when Milkis then continues on to say things like "if you don't understand why this is such a big deal, then you just don't understand Korean culture" in a pretty condescending manner. It's obvious that Milkis was very biased in how he carried out the whole thing. His job was to present the Korean side of the story, which I disagree with. It's kind of time for Koreans to understand that SC2 is becoming globalized and start to protect their players as they're competing with foreign teams now. However I lost a ton of respect for AG when he started attacking Milkis for his post. It was unnecessary and Milkis, as a translator should only post a translation of what was put on ThisIsGame and PlayXP. Which is what he did. Other translators would have done the same. I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory. However, i don't think the main problem is with the whole reporting journalism thing, but the gullibility of some in the TL community, who make spontaneous decisions regarding an issue before hearing both sides of the story.
lol, if prefacing an attack with a "not to accuse you but..." or a "no offense but..." makes the attack a non-attack, then every racist that prefaces their diatribe with a "not to be racist but..." isn't a racist.
It's nonsense.
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I would just like to give my rather long oppinion about this whole deal.
First of all the whole thing about contacting the coach first or not:
+ Show Spoiler +
EG agreed with Puma that he would talk to the coach as he is Korean, knows him well and in the end it's an issue between TSL and Puma. I don't see whats wrong with that. Puma could communicate better and if he decides to leave he should be the one who discusses this with his coach. EG doesn't have to contact TSL first about approaching Puma. Still it would be nice of EG to send a short message and apparently this is really important to a lot of people but still I don't see it as wrong in any way to let the communication go through the player in question.
Now about the player transfer. I see a lot of sentiment against EG because the "poached" a player. I agree that it is sad to see a player leave a team but you can't blame EG for trying to sign good players. It would be like blaming FC Barcelona (Football team, or soccer for NA people) for offering a contract to Fabregas (Captain of Arsenal, a different team). It's just how things work in sports.
I think if SC2 wants to become a global sport there should be room for players to switch teams. On the other hand teams should have some financial security. To facilitate this you have player contracts and buyout fees. It is in the best interest of the players to have this system as it allows the skilled players to go to the teams that are willing to give them the best support. Puma didn't have a contract and was thus not obligated to anyone to stay with his current team. EG approached him and told him they were willing to give him a contract and support him. Puma decides that he wants this and that it's beneficial to him so he wants to move.
Now I don't see how EG did anything wrong. Should they not be allowed to sign players? Should they not be allowed to offer support to players? It's in the interest of the players that they are allowed to do this and if SC2 wants to become a mature sport it's essential IMO (It's how all the big sport teams work).
I know it sucks for the coach to lose his player who he trusted would stay with the team but Puma saw an opportunity for himself and left. You can't blame EG for that and saying they "poached" a player is a bit silly. They want to sign good players (which is a good thing imo), they want to support those players (again good imo) and thus they approached those players. Puma likes the deal and as he isn't contracted can leave as he pleases. I don't know why TSL won't contract their players but if they don't they have to face the consequences. If they had an agreement with the players that they would stay in the team they have to blame Puma for leaving and not EG for approaching him.
I think that it is in the best interest of the sport to have all the teams offer a contract to their players and if they are in no position to offer a contract accept the fact that they may leave when offered one. If you can't offer or aren't willing to offer a player a contract you can have him in you teamhouse and play for your team no problem but when he gets an offer from a different team you have to accept the fact that he is allowed to leave without you receiving a buyout fee or any other compensation. This will improve the situation of the players and therefor probably increase the level of the competition (players get better support and get a better opportunity to improve).
I understand the sentiment when a player leaves a team but I think all the hate towards EG is really immature and not in tune with reality.
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I don't think AG was attacking Milkis in fact, but even if he has a point in general about how news is broken on TL, what a poor choice of venue in which to bring it up. I'm surprised considering how he handled a lot of the debate that he decided to bring up a point at that time that would inevitably result in a community backlash.
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On July 22 2011 10:12 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:08 Longshank wrote:
I'm usually a fan of Wheat but this episode was disgusting, I never thought I'd see him kiss someones butt like he did today.
"Yeah Alex, you know I agree with you but this is a topic for another time"
WTF wheat : / What's wrong with that? Sooner or later (Im guessing sooner) there is going to be a long serious pretty damn unpleasent discussion about the power / responsibility of TL and what exactly constitutes staff here and what the expectations for reporting Esports news are. But that's another issue for another day, it would take far longer then they had and completely drown out the purpose of tonights show to crack it open now.
In certain jurisdictions of the EU, libel & slander laws a much loser than the USA. While Milkis' post and what was edited in weren't a problem, we're 1 step from it becoming a problem. This was technically Alex's point and it's going to be a BIG one in the future.
However, Alex was really just ruminating about a power-dynamic (TL has the ability to drive a SC2 news cycle) that had Milkis right in the middle of it. So, either way you approach it, it's going to be viewed as an attack. It's really just something that impacts Alex's business, not really a problem Milkis has. Doesn't mean it wasn't a bit in bad form, really.
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On July 22 2011 10:15 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:14 nekuodah wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Twoinches wrote:
Tonight marks one of the darker sides of e-sports.
gamers angry with gamers making money and doing what they love. except no one is mad that Puma got signed with EG. It's how it happened. This, if anyone is angry with puma doing whats best for him its ridiculous, its just the shady under the table way that EG made the deal. Don't think anyone is angry with Puma. Most comments regarding him specifically are in full support.
Yea, personnaly I think it is a great thing that Puma joined a foreigner team and that it is a great thing for EG obviously to acquire a great player.
What I don't like about the whole thing is how it has been done. They should have talked to the team at some point. They thought because he wasnt under contract, they could just take him. But, it's just not ethical, it reminds me of the colonial empires : "no-one made papers stating that the land belongs to someone? Then its mine!!!".
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On July 22 2011 10:21 DirtYLOu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:18 farvacola wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 Senx wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began. I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant. My god that was a complete slaughter... Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.zz WRONG, have you been paying no attention? Milkis put his attempt at communication on twitter, a decidedly PUBLIC means of sending a message, usually meant more to be read by many then by a few, and you wonder why EG doesn't immediately respond? Have you no idea how public opinion works? Milkis effectively cut AG off at the very start, so quit your whining. Yes, blame milkis for translating, rather then EG for not releasing any statement whatsoever. Good thinking... ._.
Milkis' translation wasn't bad at all, and this is where AG just talked shit out of his ass. But Milkis' tweets outside of his translations were kinda bad, imo.
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EPT
