On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not.
Yeah, I'm just pointing out it blows for foreign players in that regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll get flack, if they win their opponent had lag and bad time so they had a huge advantage and if they lose then they suck in comparison, they can't really come out looking good.
Could just swap between servers between each game in a BoX like how the Chinese Star Wars tournament did it.
Yeah, the TSL did that too, but people still cried lag for Korean losses and while I'm inclined to agree that lag played a huge issue, it's still unfortunate for the players to not get credit when they win. Either way, I'm ultimately fine with it, if the players can compete they shouldn't let comments get to them.
People only cried lag for korean losses when it was EU vs KR because the games were all played on the NA server there was no switching back and forth. And as we all know there is a huge difference between the latency a european player will get on NA and what a KR player will get.
If the Koreans are willing to wake up early/stay up late and play with the large cross-server latency in these foreign online tournaments, more power to them. If they're still beating top foreigners and showing good games, they deserve to win. It's not like there's any special magic in the kimchi that makes you good at sc. Koreans are regular human beings too. They just work extremely hard and the hard work pays off.
On June 26 2011 08:01 FeyFey wrote: i am for fair chances for everyone, but watching korean games is pretty boring, as they only play standard, well except at the very top level, there even standard can look interesting.
You realize that most foreigners play "standard" as well? This is why it's called standard, right!? I don't think the korean players are less creative in general, you just don't get away with too much "crazy stuff" if the opponent has really good mechanics and can adjust his style well.
Actually most of what is considered standard today was done in Korea first...
wow did not expect there to such an overwhelming majority that voted for option one. Personally I enjoy following the foreigner scene and have some favorites that I want to see do well and it spoils the fun when a korean enters. I thought there would be more crazies like me but guess not.
This whole "Korean invasion" phenomenon? I'm loving it. It means I get to see better players play SC2. It means I get to see better players win tournaments that they deserve to win more than worse players.
As for their nationality? I could care less they happen to be Korean. Why do you?
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
The "appeal to eSports" is essentially a fucktarded fallacy that is often used on Team Liquid, it's getting old as hell.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? You're not the only one apparently. Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless...
I hope that by korean's winning foreign tournaments it doesn't discourage foreigners from getting better.
Thats the only fear I have when it comes to these types of tournament. It's fun to see the interaction between foreigners and koreans but if less and less foreigners play because they think they have no chance against koreans then I'm not sure where this will lead SC2 to.
As long as foreigners keep participating and trying their best then SC2 will succeed worldwide and evolve.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
The "appeal to eSports" is essentially a fucktarded fallacy that is often used on Team Liquid, it's getting old as hell.
support esports, send me money, empty your wallet, if you don't it means your in the axis of evil and destroying esports!
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless...
The point is that the term ESPORTS was used though. It was invoked like a magic word and is still symptomatic of the trend I'm talking about. And even if we replace the term ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level' that doesn't solve the problem. Is that what everyone means when they invoke ESPORTS? I don't think so.
I'm not going to question whether or not you have anything useful to add, because I don't think you understand the conversation being had, so it's a little unfair to you.
Obviously I want to see the best players play. But Its pretty alarmist to use TLOpen as a stat while its not being used as a qual for anything and most of the foreigners are at Homestory. Also most of the good foreigners are also already in the NASL so Its not that all the Koreans are just owning white dudes. Its that the mediocre Koreans who would get owned by the best white dudes are eeking in while everyones passed out on Take's floor.
are you unhappy that Koreans dominate sc2 tournaments worldwide? Well they practice harder, making them the better players right now. Of course we all root for the foreigners but I don't see a reason for not allowing Koreans to enter foreign online tournaments.
I think there are a lot of people who like the fact that it's not just Koreans all the time. It's fun when the foreign scene has people who can do well and you definitely get to know players better when they speak English. If MLG and TL opens and everything become entirely Koreans, I will be sad about that, but I definitely do not want bans on Koreans. A TL open for a total of $100 is never going to attract GSL champions. It is definitely a second-tier competition. That's the best you can do to make it accessible to foreigners. If even the Koreans who can't make GSL dominate all foreigners, it's pretty sad, but having a "no Koreans allowed" rule just makes it look stupid and uninteresting in a slightly different way.
The foreign SC2 scene will definitely be hurt if it becomes all-Korean in tournaments, but there's nothing tournament organizers can do to help that. The only people with the power to avert that potential problem are the foreign players. We need a small number of teams that all have pro-houses and really put in the kind of practice necessary to get actually good at this game.
EPT
