On June 27 2011 10:47 Belha wrote: I kinda agree with Catz. Koreans right now are the best, ONLY due to their developed pro scene. If we, foreigners, wants to be at their level, we must develop some kind of e-sports scene, but that is imposible if koreans keep taking the tourneys money to their home. Just my two cents.
I never understood this argument tbh. If anything the koreans flying all over the world is making esport more popular cause its shows how serious it is taken on another place. And are you honestly saying that the money is better spend when a foreigner takes it rather then a korean? Do they donate a part to the scene somehow i am missing?
Should the Koreans go and play in the top tier tournaments? Of course they should, but I feel that there should be limits on their participation in the smaller, online tournaments.
Seems reasonable, the foreigner scene can have the bar raised in the big events, and in the lesser ones they can be region-specific. It's got nothing to do with racism
Not going to be much fun for any up and coming player if MC and July are playing in the small prize online tournaments now is it? Maybe that's unlikely, but if the top, top Koreans start mopping up every single tournament going many aspiring pros are going to just earn their living elsewhere.
Somebody in another similar thread made a nice analogy with college sports. Players get time to develop their skillset in a lesser environment and when they are ready and good enough they can play in the NBA/NFL or whatever. If there wasn't this buffer and you were playing against Kobe Bryant every week it would be disheartening
it is good :D i wish that the connection between korea/na was better so that i could practice with them O_O although it does give us a nice advantage in the tournaments lol
Koreans playing in these tournaments is great, there's no way for most people to practice with them otherwise. I played zenexwon in the tlo, and while I lost it was really fun, and there was no lag whatsoever.
I'm totally cool with Koreans in NASL, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. (anything with a big prize pool). I really hope there are smaller online Cups for NA/EU players though... I don't like this "restriction" but I feel it's the only way to support aspiring progamers in these regions. Otherwise a lot of people here have to get "real" 40-hour jobs which really prevents them from practicing enough to make SC2 into a living, while Koreans have no issues with that.
I still am not convinced having more Koreans is a good thing. First it would only be good if more Koreans actually raised the skill of foreigner. In BW this did not happen, it was simply not fair to have foreigner who where just trying to do the best they could to face the super soldiers of korea. Now in sc2 it is not quite the same situation. There is a lot more involvement in the scene and pro houses are starting to form. Hopefully this will begin to allow foreigners to start catching up. However, for right now if koreans just come and dominate everything completely and thoroughly it will actually hurt the game. The average person who watches sc2 and knows nothing of team liquid will be put off by the lack of personal connection with the player. You cannot deny that the feeling of a personal connection is a big draw. I am simply concerned that the loss of such a connection will hurt viewership and ultimently esports. Another aspect again is the treatment of korean players. It is unfair to expect foreigners who want to practice starcraft as their job, but still want other aspects to their lives-social for instance. I mean it is simply not right the kind of treatment koreans do to themselves. I think no one should be subject to such a lifestyle.
who are you to say that "no one should be subject to such a lifestyle" ?? lol.. they are giving it their all if a foreigner doesnt practice as much because they want to balance other aspects of their life, that's fine but don't expect to win against someone who put in more time / effort. same thing applies to pretty much everything in life
I am one to say no one deserves that lifestyle because it isn't a life at all. No other sport makes you make such deep sacrifices. It goes beyond simply just letting the best win, because that kind of thinking will ultimently hurt the players. I love starcraft, but not enough to see the players I cherish hurt like that.
I still am not convinced having more Koreans is a good thing. First it would only be good if more Koreans actually raised the skill of foreigner. In BW this did not happen, it was simply not fair to have foreigner who where just trying to do the best they could to face the super soldiers of korea. Now in sc2 it is not quite the same situation. There is a lot more involvement in the scene and pro houses are starting to form. Hopefully this will begin to allow foreigners to start catching up. However, for right now if koreans just come and dominate everything completely and thoroughly it will actually hurt the game. The average person who watches sc2 and knows nothing of team liquid will be put off by the lack of personal connection with the player. You cannot deny that the feeling of a personal connection is a big draw. I am simply concerned that the loss of such a connection will hurt viewership and ultimently esports. Another aspect again is the treatment of korean players. It is unfair to expect foreigners who want to practice starcraft as their job, but still want other aspects to their lives-social for instance. I mean it is simply not right the kind of treatment koreans do to themselves. I think no one should be subject to such a lifestyle.
who are you to say that "no one should be subject to such a lifestyle" ?? lol.. they are giving it their all if a foreigner doesnt practice as much because they want to balance other aspects of their life, that's fine but don't expect to win against someone who put in more time / effort. same thing applies to pretty much everything in life
I am one to say no one deserves that lifestyle because it isn't a life at all. No other sport makes you make such deep sacrifices. It goes beyond simply just letting the best win, because that kind of thinking will ultimently hurt the players. I love starcraft, but not enough to see the players I cherish hurt like that.
This lifestyle is their choice, if flash, or jaedong or some progamer didn't want to make sacrifices, they wouldn't be pros. And sports players do amazing sacrifices they literally destroy their bodies to compete at the highest level. That's why some players can only play till they are 30-40, their body can literally not take the abuse.
sacrifices for competition are necessary, and the Koreans have set the bar, if the Koreans were not dominating no one would care, but they are, so its up to the rest of the world to step up. What does this take? I'm not sure, but you can't call yourself true professionals when the lower level of another scene can literally walk in and crush the best players of your scene.
I don't think that it's anyone's place to hold a tournament and not allow Koreans to enter. If it were invite only, that would be one way... But you can't be like "open tournament" and not expect players to enter. I, for one, refuse to support a tournament that I know discriminates against Koreans for being good. We're essentially referring to the foreign SC2 scene as being the special Olympics.
If Koreans take over in the west as some are predicting (lets say 75% of NASL is Korean) will the tournament organizers still be able to get sponsorship in their areas? Take NASL for instance, after season 3 they will potentially be looking for sponsors. Who is going to sponsor a league where the majority of the talent does not reside in a country that they do major business in? My guess is not many. Even if the company does have a major market in Korea why wouldn't they just sponsor GSL?
While it's way too early to tell if foreigners will be able to close the gap, if they don't and it continues to widen it may not be up to the viewers to decide. If the corporate sponsors all start pulling out because it's getting them nothing in the west the number of large tournaments will fall drastically. That is what is not a good thing for E-Sports in the west. Regional locking is not the ideal solution but if nothing changes from the current situation it may be necessary to have a large league/tournament in the west (from a purely financial point of view).
However, it's too early in the process to start making those decisions now. More something to think about over the next 4-6 months.
On June 28 2011 02:19 Talkerst wrote: If Koreans take over in the west as some are predicting (lets say 75% of NASL is Korean) will the tournament organizers still be able to get sponsorship in their areas?
If the NA "pros" don't want the NA SC2 scene to die due to Korean takeover then they need to get their acts together. There is no magical gene that makes the Koreans better it is simply work ethic and practice. Want to play SC2 professionally? Start acting like professionals.
Just because they are better doesn't mean we should exclude them.
They are also playing through some major lag at some points, and if they are good enough to do that they deserve to play in every tournament they can enter.
This lifestyle is their choice, if flash, or jaedong or some progamer didn't want to make sacrifices, they wouldn't be pros. And sports players do amazing sacrifices they literally destroy their bodies to compete at the highest level. That's why some players can only play till they are 30-40, their body can literally not take the abuse.
sacrifices for competition are necessary, and the Koreans have set the bar, if the Koreans were not dominating no one would care, but they are, so its up to the rest of the world to step up. What does this take? I'm not sure, but you can't call yourself true professionals when the lower level of another scene can literally walk in and crush the best players of your scene.
Should foreigners sacrifice more, become more dedicated-probabley. However, I am also sure that the korean scene needs to treat their players better. I can only imagine the media frenzy here in the West that would result if the treatment of koreans became more apparent. They take kids, get them to drop out of school just to play. Yes people who want to be pro should have sacrifices, but where is the line? When do we say that we can not allow a pro to do something simply for our entertainment? In sports they ban steroids because of its adverse health effects. Should sacrifices be made to become a pro? absolutely! but when does someone say no, where not gonna let you throw your life unnecessarily? We can have a pro scene, that doesn't break our morals.I think right now we should wait. Wait and see how our houses develop while simultanously pressuring the korean pro scene to change you expand the rights of its players.
Yes, everyone crying for team houses! in the west hopefully doesn't expect the Korean model to be emulated here
I'd say the living conditions in western team houses should be held to a higher standard than the Korean ones. TLO's place in Stockholm or FXO's place in Malaysia both seem much more comfortable than the Korean houses. Although I've heard that a lot of progress has been made for SC2 compared to the BW houses' military/sweatshop atmosphere, which is reassuring.
This discussion actually reminds me of the various reports about the Chinese preparing for the Beijing Olympics.
EPT
the fact that global gaming can happy in this capacity is a big win for Pro-Gaming IMO!
