It's starting to become very clear that Koreans are starting to find out about "Foreign" online tournaments and qualifiers. At first we had some Koreans traveling to LANs like Dreamhack Winter and later tournaments like MLG, Copenhagen Games and Dreamhack Summer.
The only other Koreans we have seen in other online tournaments have been during the BETA and in NASL Season 1 and TSL3 which up until now only have been invitational players.
But maybe now we will see a lot more Koreans participating in NA and Europan online tournaments and also dominate them? What I'm specifically discussion is open tournaments and qualifiers that doesn't require special invitations.
This weekend we have seen a lot of Koreans applying and participating in events in such numbers that we havn't seen before.
TLOpen We here could see over 20 Koreans participating in the TL Open. The whole ZeNex team informed almost everyone to participate in this tournament. + Show Spoiler +
And also 3 out of 4 in Ro4 are Koreans.
NASL Open Tournament Here we yet again could see another Korean team participate - TSL. + Show Spoiler +
Top 4 in this tournament was Korean (bravely fought Thorzain!) and now we get another Korean in the NASL Grand Final as the 16th seed.
NASL Season 2 Qualifiers Let us just look at the persons that have applied. We can here see 24 Koreans participating in this tournament with names like MarineKing, Polt, the whole oGs team, SlayerSMMA, SlayersCella and a lot more. Over 1/3 of the participants right now are Koreans. http://binarybeast.com/xSC21106163/participants
What do you think about this?
So basically we see a lot of Koreans showing interest in EU/NA tournaments - and now also online tournaments and qualifiers.
We've had this discussion before with the NASL but the interesting question here and a lot of people think that it's positive that EU/NA players now can play against really good Korean players. Other think it's better for regions like EU/NA to grow for themselves first.
We now have a situation were some online tournaments like NASL is open for everyone - it doesn't matter which nationality or region you're from. We also have online tournaments only for people living in EU/NA/LA like IGN Pro League. We also have the mashup like TSL3 were Koreans were invited later on but with regional qualifiers/online tournaments.
The main question that's interesting to ask from a community and spectator perspective - do we really want this? Do you prefer global online tournaments/qualifiers or do you prefer regional based tournaments/qualifiers?
Poll: Do you prefer global online tournaments/qualifiers or regional?
Yes, make online tournaments and qualifiers global. We want to watch the best! (NASL Style) (1151)
88%
No, online tournaments and qualifiers regionally and maybe invite Koreans for playoffs. (TSL3 Style) (86)
7%
No, Koreans should not be invited in EU/NA online tournaments/qualifiers. (IPL style) (75)
6%
1312 total votes
Your vote: Do you prefer global online tournaments/qualifiers or regional?
(Vote): Yes, make online tournaments and qualifiers global. We want to watch the best! (NASL Style) (Vote): No, online tournaments and qualifiers regionally and maybe invite Koreans for playoffs. (TSL3 Style) (Vote): No, Koreans should not be invited in EU/NA online tournaments/qualifiers. (IPL style)
Personally I don't have so much against Korean gamers trying their luck in online tournaments and qualifiers but it would be nice to know what you others think about it.
The only thing I'm afraid of is that foreigners will refuse to practice as much as the koreans (which IMO is totally understandable) so the SC2 scene will stop growing because nobody can beat the koreans. I don't mind them coming, but I hope the foreigners react to it by training harder.
I think that regional qualifiers gives more opportunity for foreigners to be part of the participants, and there needs to be a limit to the number of Koreans, but without Koreans, there's no proper challenge. It's not like Koreans are coming and taking everything from the foreigner scene. You have Koreans joining foreigner teams and dropping out of the GSL to do so. You have foreigners moving to Korea and being invited to participate in Korean tournaments.
Making everything as inclusive as possible is the best thing for spectators and in the long run the best thing for player development. If you create an insular foreigner scene where there are no Koreans, you will end up with a bunch of quite good players, but not true top level players and they will be a tier below the Koreans.
There does need to be a limit though, so that you don't end up with only Koreans. Something like the TSL3 where there was a limit to Korean participants, but they had a way to get players from all regions, or a simple player cap. They have it in professional organised sports sports (for teams, e.g. Football (soccer)), where a certain # of players must be home grown or domestic, but you are allowed to bring in foreign players to a certain point. It means you keep developing local talent (in this case the foreigner scene), but you also ensure that you have top level competition with the best in the world able to participate as well.
NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at qualifying!
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Koreans participating in foreigner tournaments (and placing highly) brings money home to Korea. Money to Korea increases sponsors. Sponsors make SC2 more popular (like BW). SC2 being more popular makes it more competitive. Greater competition means more people put more time into playing, teams increase salaries to compensate practice time increases etc.
It's better to put money into the Korean scene because Pro-gaming is more accepted there. The faster SC2 becomes big in Korea, the faster the foreign scene will evolve as well.
The foreigners are forced to start practising more and improving by koreans joining these tournaments. That if something is good for professional gaming!
If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
Is that the Puma that beat Nal_ra at the end of his TV-show?
Edit : OnT I actually dont want the koreans participating in the foreigner online tourneys. I want to be able to recognise every top 16 player of a tournament and know a little about them, not random korean practice partners that roll over every european with überprecised timing attacks.
The whole point of online tournaments is to have the possibility of the whole world participating, right?
Also, it's not like foreigners can't go to GSL, but GSL isn't online, so that's the main problem. The same way, koreans have to do quite an investment to go to MLG or Dreamhack.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
It just ups the competition a lot, sure, it may be a bit disheartening to see an entire top 8 or whatever from the same country but that's just sort of how it is at the moment. It's not like it can't ever be changed, it's if the foreign scene is willing to take the steps to make it change.
By introducing koreans into the foreign scene they may dominate for a while - however as metagame starts to merge and foreign players start to work even harder eventually we may see a flood of very capable foreign players invading the GSL.
Why do people keep going on about this. I just don't understand why it's such a big deal. It's like TSL being purely European, is that some kind of issue now?
If the koreans keep dominating then it's up to the foreigners to train more. If you don't let the koreans in the tournament then there is no reason for the foreigners to train as they still can win and make money. By introducing more competition for that money they have to get better. And it may require forming things like team houses, but we have started to see that happen and I think it's a good thing for development of even higher level competition.
Well, EU/NA players will just have to step up their game. I don't particularly care, even though I did just close the TSL stream since I don't really care about ZeNEX players duking it out. Then again, I don't really watch noname-Europeans either. Just saw TSL and checked it out.
TL;DR: If the event is cool (Home Story Cup), I'll watch. If it isn't, I'll watch if the players are high profile. If neither is the case,... I stop procrastinating.
i think its great that the koreans are competing the best players should be winning no matter where theyre from, i just think its important to preserve some tournaments that cater to masters and not just gm-pro players which could happen if enough koreans play consistently in these tournaments
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
I know that IPL have interest in expanding, but right now it's very exclusive to people living in EU/NA/LA.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
I know that IPL have interest in expanding, but right now it's very exclusive to people living in EU/NA/LA.
Thanks for this clarification, definitely boycotting the IPL from now on.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not.
I think it's great that Koreans are playing in foreign tourney's. I like watching the best players compete, foreigner or Korean. Hopefully if the Koreans dominate these tournaments enough, foreigners will start to train harder to keep up.
On June 26 2011 07:29 cronican wrote: The more clashes we have between Koreans and Foreigners the quicker Foreigners will realize how much better they need to get.
I dont think this will happen. I think if the foreigners want to get as good as the koreans, they will have to up the competition between themselves, because the koreans are allready too far ahead. Sure, there are the very best players of every country (say whitera kas of ukraine, nani jinro of swe etc etc etc) but we dont have nearly as many high level players as them, and we wont get simply because our society and the economy of most foreign "progamers" does not allow for the same kind of training environment as the koreans.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not.
Yeah, I'm just pointing out it blows for foreign players in that regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll get flack, if they win their opponent had lag and bad time so they had a huge advantage and if they lose then they suck in comparison, they can't really come out looking good.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not.
Yeah, I'm just pointing out it blows for foreign players in that regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll get flack, if they win their opponent had lag and bad time so they had a huge advantage and if they lose then they suck in comparison, they can't really come out looking good.
Could just swap between servers between each game in a BoX like how the Chinese Star Wars tournament did it.
I find all this talk of nationality as racial basis to exclude koreans because they have a stronger work ethic slightly ridiculous to say the least.
This isn't something a Korean, American, German, Italian or any nationalistic version of ones race is born with. You don't get removed from the womb with a Blizzard magazine in your hand, it is all about the fact that the Korean scene harbours a much stronger work ethic, to close that out is to say something along the lines of:
"In this sport, you work hardest, you can't compete, sorry"
It's absurdity, and anyone who condones that message should be removed from a discussion on E-Sports.
I personally love the "korean against the world" maybe when we start gaming 14hours a day, and relaly focusing then we can say there is an imbalance in racial aptitude towards SC2.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
Ok, you're actually right. The main context and meaning with the poll question is correct - but I should have deleted the "IPL style" - would have been a bit better.
The description in the OP about the different tournaments are correct though but sadly I don't know how to change poll descriptions :/.
In football (not handegg), there has been a lot of debate in UEFA and the FA about introducing a rule where the number of foreign players in a domestic league team is restricted. This issue has raised a huge amount of debate involving the fans, the clubs, the players and everyone who is important in FIFA and UEFA.
So this is not a unique issue to Starcraft, but the matter is made more extreme by the fact that online play allows anyone to play, anywhere, without further commitment.
I think it is fine to allow unrestricted online play, and I think it is fine to force restricted online play. Every tournament organiser must therefore question his true object and purpose in establishing the tournament. I think we will see many new exclusive or protectionist tournaments in the future, aimed at fostering the domestic scene. However, the biggest and most prestigious tournaments will undoubtedly be the unrestricted online tournaments, and that should provide enough incentive for everyone involved to improve.
What I expect to see in the future: - Unrestricted online tournaments: e.g. NASL Open Tournament, and even invitationals like the FXO Invitational series - Restricted online tournaments: e.g. IPL and some smaller, local tournaments; will generally have less prize money - Unrestricted "offline" (damn Blizzard!) tournaments: e.g. GSL, and I would expect to see more extended offline tournaments in Europe, perhaps based in Sweden or Germany, in the future; less Koreans will be at these, and even if they did come, they are away from their support base and will be "brought down" to the tournament level - Unrestricted "offline" spectacles: e.g. Dreamhack, IEM, MLG; I would expect at least 5-10 Koreans to come every event; however, more Koreans = less chance to pay off their investment in coming
I don't mind Koreans being invited (nor am I racist for that matter), thing is:
If koreans keep owning up the place, every, single, tournament. (4/5 koreans end up in the top 5), it's hardly satisfying to watch it. It'll kill 'E-sports in the west' as people tend to lose interest if the outcome: a) is very much predictable b) no people you can relate to seem to be able to win(People from the same country/place/environment/etc)
And sure: The only people to blame are the non-korean pro-gamers who don't 'train hard enough', or don't have the same type of training that is required to keep up with the koreans. It doesn't change the fact that SC2 will have the same destiny as BW: it being only populair in Korea and nowhere else, because no-one else can keep up.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea.
And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty.
They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here.
What does "watching the best" have to do with the NASL? If you look at the region distribution of the players that were eliminated and which qualified, they heavily favored the north american scene over both the european and the korean one. Not that I blame them, but "watching the best" is something else.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea.
And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty.
They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here.
Koreans dominating in these tournaments could potentially damage the foreign SC2 scene. It sounds kinda cute to the viewers because they want to see the best players, but you'll end up strangling emerging foreign talent before they get a chance.
Playing well in online tournaments raises the reputation of the little guys and potentially can get them a team contact. Its actually more likely you'd get foreign teams signing up koreans instead of foreigners if we see many taking part online, and its already starting to happen.
What people are expecting is a bunch of foreign outliers to raise their game once korean competition comes. Not gonna happen. The koreans benefit from a stronger ladder, team houses & coaches. You need a thriving foreign scene before you can get team houses & coaches, only after that will you see koreans beaten regularly.
Yes i want to see koreans, what i want to see even more is others beating koreans.
So i'm all for koreans participating in online/foreign tournaments and hopefully it will be an incentive for foreigners to take their practice more seriously etc. So they all together raise sc2 to a higher level.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not.
Yeah, I'm just pointing out it blows for foreign players in that regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll get flack, if they win their opponent had lag and bad time so they had a huge advantage and if they lose then they suck in comparison, they can't really come out looking good.
Could just swap between servers between each game in a BoX like how the Chinese Star Wars tournament did it.
Yeah, the TSL did that too, but people still cried lag for Korean losses and while I'm inclined to agree that lag played a huge issue, it's still unfortunate for the players to not get credit when they win. Either way, I'm ultimately fine with it, if the players can compete they shouldn't let comments get to them.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea.
And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty.
They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here.
Again, what's the logistical issue on part of the tournament host? You can log on to the NA server even if you aren't in NA. Being on battle.net means you are physically able to play. What else do you need?
On June 26 2011 07:43 tyCe wrote: In football (not handegg), there has been a lot of debate in UEFA and the FA about introducing a rule where the number of foreign players in a domestic league team is restricted. This issue has raised a huge amount of debate involving the fans, the clubs, the players and everyone who is important in FIFA and UEFA.
So this is not a unique issue to Starcraft, but the matter is made more extreme by the fact that online play allows anyone to play, anywhere, without further commitment.
Hold your horses there, this has nothing to do with race or anything, but with money.
Premier League(And some outside of England, sure) clubs have way more money than other divisions in Europe. And they keep buying out every talent there is with promises of insane salaries and good conditions. Other countries-premier-divisions would have a way higher level if it wasn't for that (The Dutch, Spanish for example) and the ones who are on top now would not be as dominating as they are now.
This issue in Starcraft doesn't nearly have the problems that the soccer(hate this word) world has. The problem in the football world is easily solvable by the suggested solution(with the heavy debates). The issue in Starcraft is harder to solve, as it is primarily a work ethic issue. Totally not compareable. (I don't want to go too off topic about this though, just wanted to make this clear).
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
What are you talking about? It's not "blatantly discriminatory" at all, that's hugely naive. There are plenty of tournaments with regional limitations, it's logistical, the first IPL was North America only, they're expanding it slowly so they can make sure they don't fuck things up. There are issues such as lag and time organization, not to mention the IPL is trying to get more player interaction which is hard to do right now with people in Korea.
And it's not discriminatory at all, Huk can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Jinro can't play because he's not in NA/EU, Sen can't play because he's not in NA/EU, it's not discriminating against anyone who isn't North America on European, it's purely regional. If you've lost respect for IGN because of this then that's quite petty.
They've expressed interest in expanding in the future, but are taking it slow for purely logistical reasons, there's no discrimination here.
Again, what's the logistical issue on part of the tournament host? You can log on to the NA server even if you aren't in NA. Being on battle.net means you are physically able to play. What else do you need?
You realize playing isn't all that's involved with the tournament, have you seen what IGN is trying to do with IPL TV, with the prize stuff, with player interaction, there's also obvious issues with lag that would have to be accommodated, for fairness they'd have to switch servers between games which could hurt the quality of the games and be an unnecessary hassle. Regardless of whether or not these issues are worthing the regional lock, claiming that they're discriminating is really dumb, they're purely region locking, if SeleCT was living in Cambodia, he wouldn't be allowed to compete and it'd have nothing to do with him being Korean.
On June 26 2011 07:47 AnalThermometer wrote: Koreans dominating in these tournaments could potentially damage the foreign SC2 scene. It sounds kinda cute to the viewers because they want to see the best players, but you'll end up strangling emerging foreign talent before they get a chance.
Playing well in online tournaments raises the reputation of the little guys and potentially can get them a team contact. Its actually more likely you'd get foreign teams signing up koreans instead of foreigners if we see many taking part online, and its already starting to happen.
What people are expecting is a bunch of foreign outliers to raise their game once korean competition comes. Not gonna happen. The koreans benefit from a stronger ladder, team houses & coaches. You need a thriving foreign scene before you can get team houses & coaches, only after that will you see koreans beaten regularly.
Then the team managers need to start looking for people who placed the highest after the Koreans. From them, I expect at least this much common sense.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
But they are playing with lag and at shitty times (NASL at least). This is undeniable. We have live events like MLG, Dreamhack, NASL finals where players battle it out on equal grounds with no handicaps, etc. In this case there are no excuses. Sure you can say MC was jetlagged or Idra would've won if he was in a better mental state, blah blah but these are excuses anyone can make.
I love watching the best so love watching the koreans. I hope they win all foreign tournies and that koreans finish top 4 in NASL to win a majority of the money cause they deserve it for putting in more work and practice compared to foreigners.
With so many tournies no one can watch all tournies, so I only watch the gsl and the only foreign tournies I watch are the ones with koreans in it, so no stuff like IPL or eg master's cup for me cause the play is just too low level to enjoy relative to koreans.
Hoping 8 more koreans qualify for NASL in the next open tourney. I don't mind more koreans in NASL because we actually don't get to see koreans play that much. Like in GSL if someone like mkp makes the finals you get to see him play like 5 or 6 best of X series over a month? The more mkp games I can watch the better! And this goes for all the other koreans I enjoy watching.
players like Rain have realized where the free money is. i'm expecting a few more koreans to follow him once they see rain pillaging american tournaments for cash.
I'd rather have a competitive competition than a global one.
I've watched all the Clash of the Houses, I love GSL, I love Korean players and no-one can compete against them.
Maybe a few absolute A-teamers can go toe to toe with a Korean B Teamer but 99 times out of a hundred a no-name korean will decimate foreign competition.
I don't mind invitationals, and I love high level competition but the small cups are real grass roots stuff and it's a good way to smother the foreign scene in its infancy.
On June 26 2011 07:55 svi wrote: to be honest, not even IPL is gonna be safe.
players like Rain have realized where the free money is. i'm expecting a few more koreans to follow him once they see rain pillaging american tournaments for cash.
The IPL has already said they're interested in expanding to more regions in the future anyway so eventually players will have to compete with Koreans in more and more tournaments. It's rough, we'll see how it goes, hopefully foreigners can step up their game and compete.
On June 26 2011 07:52 Mordiford wrote: [...] for fairness they'd have to switch servers between games which could hurt the quality of the games and be an unnecessary hassle.
No? The koreans would obviously still play in it if all games were played on NA. They are showing right now that they can still dominate tournaments with the lag on NA. There are no server-changes for EU-NA-matches or are there? This is just a really weak argument tbh.
I love it. If they get top 4 in every single tournament, it's because they deserve to. The end result is either way that we get a higher quality of participants and games. It can also only serve to help improve the foreigner pro-gamers, by way of exposure to the Korean pro-gamers.
i am for fair chances for everyone, but watching korean games is pretty boring, as they only play standard, well except at the very top level, there even standard can look interesting. Koreans vs foreigners is also blerg. Creativ play suprises, then cheese and hope the mistake is done and it will be a standard game in the 3rd match hehe.
I don't mind the korean domination alot, the result will probably be that international tournaments die out for a short duration sc2 becomes more popular in korea and they will focus there again. Result will be a bwlike situation hopefully. (i prefer watching creativ gameplay rather then super effectiv all the time)
Well we will see if the training houses for foreigners will bring success, but at the end that will mean that foreigners will play as boring as koreans. Which is still better then watching my replays though . Just hope i can still watch the cool players often
i think it's cool that theyre keen on winning money in the international scene because its obviously much easier picking as of right now at least. i just hope that the top foreigners respond appropriately and manage to put up an impressive fight, else we're just going to have predictable results all around. i hope the most promising foreigners dont follow idra's example and reduce practice time to 3 hours a day though, else the foreign scene is gonna be pretty depressing for a while. T.T
On June 26 2011 07:52 JustPassingBy wrote: Then the team managers need to start looking for people who placed the highest after the Koreans. From them, I expect at least this much common sense.
Unlikely they want to take on people finishing 8th or something like that in online tournaments filled with koreans, with no potential to win anything soon. Better to have competitions with a good distribution of skill.
On June 26 2011 07:52 Mordiford wrote: [...] for fairness they'd have to switch servers between games which could hurt the quality of the games and be an unnecessary hassle.
No? The koreans would obviously still play in it if all games were played on NA. They are showing right now that they can still dominate tournaments with the lag on NA. There are no server-changes for EU-NA-matches or are there? This is just a really weak argument tbh.
Not saying they wouldn't play, I'm saying it wouldn't be fair for them and some tournaments are more interested in maintaining absolute fairness regardless, I don't really care about this argument itself, I think that if Koreans want to play on the NA server, they can take the handicap.
What if they gave each team a Salary cap, so they couldn't boaster a large number of professional koraens and would have to harbor a few less talented players along with the powerhouses.
On a related note, we should totally get rid of the "foreigner" terminology.
It was appropriate for BW, but it doesn't really work for SC2.
We have the NA scene, we have the EU scene, we have the (emerging) CN scene, we have the KR scene. And while one region is stronger than any other right now, top players from each region can and will take games and series off of each other. Dividing this into two scenes (with the CN players somewhere in between...) doesn't do the situation justice. It's simply not appropriate anymore.
i like the tsl way. from my perspective, i care about watching the best of the best play. i dont care if he has more technique and deserves to win, i cheer for people i like. i am more familiar with foreigners so i choose to root for them. of course nothing makes me happier than foreigners beating koreans so you gotta have them along the way.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate high level Starcraft and global communities (the essence of TL). Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
I voted yes, but this is what I hate, it's such a bullshit situation for foreign players with people who bring this into the equation, it's a no-win situation.
If they win, the Korean obvious had lag and was playing at a shitty time, if they lose, Koreans own foreigners obviously better players playing better.
The truth hurts I guess..? That doesn't make it less true though. They do have lag and play at shitty times, regardless if it's the reason for their loss or not.
Yeah, I'm just pointing out it blows for foreign players in that regardless of whether they win or lose, they'll get flack, if they win their opponent had lag and bad time so they had a huge advantage and if they lose then they suck in comparison, they can't really come out looking good.
Could just swap between servers between each game in a BoX like how the Chinese Star Wars tournament did it.
Yeah, the TSL did that too, but people still cried lag for Korean losses and while I'm inclined to agree that lag played a huge issue, it's still unfortunate for the players to not get credit when they win. Either way, I'm ultimately fine with it, if the players can compete they shouldn't let comments get to them.
People only cried lag for korean losses when it was EU vs KR because the games were all played on the NA server there was no switching back and forth. And as we all know there is a huge difference between the latency a european player will get on NA and what a KR player will get.
If the Koreans are willing to wake up early/stay up late and play with the large cross-server latency in these foreign online tournaments, more power to them. If they're still beating top foreigners and showing good games, they deserve to win. It's not like there's any special magic in the kimchi that makes you good at sc. Koreans are regular human beings too. They just work extremely hard and the hard work pays off.
On June 26 2011 08:01 FeyFey wrote: i am for fair chances for everyone, but watching korean games is pretty boring, as they only play standard, well except at the very top level, there even standard can look interesting.
You realize that most foreigners play "standard" as well? This is why it's called standard, right!? I don't think the korean players are less creative in general, you just don't get away with too much "crazy stuff" if the opponent has really good mechanics and can adjust his style well.
Actually most of what is considered standard today was done in Korea first...
wow did not expect there to such an overwhelming majority that voted for option one. Personally I enjoy following the foreigner scene and have some favorites that I want to see do well and it spoils the fun when a korean enters. I thought there would be more crazies like me but guess not.
This whole "Korean invasion" phenomenon? I'm loving it. It means I get to see better players play SC2. It means I get to see better players win tournaments that they deserve to win more than worse players.
As for their nationality? I could care less they happen to be Korean. Why do you?
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
The "appeal to eSports" is essentially a fucktarded fallacy that is often used on Team Liquid, it's getting old as hell.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? You're not the only one apparently. Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless...
I hope that by korean's winning foreign tournaments it doesn't discourage foreigners from getting better.
Thats the only fear I have when it comes to these types of tournament. It's fun to see the interaction between foreigners and koreans but if less and less foreigners play because they think they have no chance against koreans then I'm not sure where this will lead SC2 to.
As long as foreigners keep participating and trying their best then SC2 will succeed worldwide and evolve.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
The "appeal to eSports" is essentially a fucktarded fallacy that is often used on Team Liquid, it's getting old as hell.
support esports, send me money, empty your wallet, if you don't it means your in the axis of evil and destroying esports!
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless...
The point is that the term ESPORTS was used though. It was invoked like a magic word and is still symptomatic of the trend I'm talking about. And even if we replace the term ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level' that doesn't solve the problem. Is that what everyone means when they invoke ESPORTS? I don't think so.
I'm not going to question whether or not you have anything useful to add, because I don't think you understand the conversation being had, so it's a little unfair to you.
Obviously I want to see the best players play. But Its pretty alarmist to use TLOpen as a stat while its not being used as a qual for anything and most of the foreigners are at Homestory. Also most of the good foreigners are also already in the NASL so Its not that all the Koreans are just owning white dudes. Its that the mediocre Koreans who would get owned by the best white dudes are eeking in while everyones passed out on Take's floor.
are you unhappy that Koreans dominate sc2 tournaments worldwide? Well they practice harder, making them the better players right now. Of course we all root for the foreigners but I don't see a reason for not allowing Koreans to enter foreign online tournaments.
I think there are a lot of people who like the fact that it's not just Koreans all the time. It's fun when the foreign scene has people who can do well and you definitely get to know players better when they speak English. If MLG and TL opens and everything become entirely Koreans, I will be sad about that, but I definitely do not want bans on Koreans. A TL open for a total of $100 is never going to attract GSL champions. It is definitely a second-tier competition. That's the best you can do to make it accessible to foreigners. If even the Koreans who can't make GSL dominate all foreigners, it's pretty sad, but having a "no Koreans allowed" rule just makes it look stupid and uninteresting in a slightly different way.
The foreign SC2 scene will definitely be hurt if it becomes all-Korean in tournaments, but there's nothing tournament organizers can do to help that. The only people with the power to avert that potential problem are the foreign players. We need a small number of teams that all have pro-houses and really put in the kind of practice necessary to get actually good at this game.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless...
The point is that the term ESPORTS was used though. It was invoked like a magic word and is still symptomatic of the trend I'm talking about. And even if we replace the term ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level' that doesn't solve the problem. Is that what everyone means when they invoke ESPORTS? I don't think so.
I'm not going to question whether or not you have anything useful to add, because I don't think you understand the conversation being had, so it's a little unfair to you.
An off-topic rant about the definition and common usage of a term is not a conversation. If that is all you want to discuss then you should post a thread about it, and I'm not being sarcastic or condescending.
I love it. It's way better than if they didn't. It has so many advantages:
- Wake-up call for Westerners, who'll be forced to step up their game while repeatedly measuring themselves against Korean players - Higher level of play to watch for spectators - Possibility of "upset"-feelings every time a Westerner defeats a (known) Korean - Better preparation for Westerners, in the sense that they get used to competing with Koreans, even if they didn't actually physically go to Korea
On June 26 2011 08:28 Philo wrote: Obviously I want to see the best players play. But Its pretty alarmist to use TLOpen as a stat while its not being used as a qual for anything and most of the foreigners are at Homestory. Also most of the good foreigners are also already in the NASL so Its not that all the Koreans are just owning white dudes. Its that the mediocre Koreans who would get owned by the best white dudes are eeking in while everyones passed out on Take's floor.
Not really true. Hwangsin won it last week with quite a few higher rated foreigners playing.
And TSL_Heart just knocked Thorzain out of the NASL Open.
On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote: If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments.
While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support.
"X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!"
I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much.
On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective.
Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless...
The point is that the term ESPORTS was used though. It was invoked like a magic word and is still symptomatic of the trend I'm talking about. And even if we replace the term ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level' that doesn't solve the problem. Is that what everyone means when they invoke ESPORTS? I don't think so.
I'm not going to question whether or not you have anything useful to add, because I don't think you understand the conversation being had, so it's a little unfair to you.
An off-topic rant about the definition and common usage of a term is not a conversation. If that is all you want to discuss then you should post a thread about it, and I'm not being sarcastic or condescending.
I'll definitely concede that point and even apologize for going off topic.
It's a problem, because low tier Koreans trash Foreigners. I'd love to say No Koreans shouldn't be allowed to participate because they'll clean the floor with us, but I'll say Yes they should because it'll force foreigners to step it up to beat even bad koreans (by their standards)
Also a reason for Foreigners to step it up and practice their asses off in practice houses if they hope to continue having a chance to stand up to the koreans.
One thing to add - this is actually likely a good way to help foreigners improve directly, rather than just as a motivating force. When foreigners and Koreans don't play with each other much, they develop separate metagame evolutions. And since the Koreans practice more, their ideas of what sorts of builds are good and how you should respond in certain situations develops faster. Even the best players do most of their improvement by learning from others - their personal innovation is an important but small part of that. Any chance to play games against good Koreans is a chance to see the weaknesses in the popular foreigner builds and so forth, and in some ways keeps them from falling too far behind.
On June 26 2011 08:32 Grubby wrote: I love it. It's way better than if they didn't. It has so many advantages:
- Wake-up call for Westerners, who'll be forced to step up their game while repeatedly measuring themselves against Korean players - Higher level of play to watch for spectators - Possibility of "upset"-feelings every time a Westerner defeats a (known) Korean - Better preparation for Westerners, in the sense that they get used to competing with Koreans, even if they didn't actually physically go to Korea
Aren't you guys supposed to be out partying right now? :D
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
I know that IPL have interest in expanding, but right now it's very exclusive to people living in EU/NA/LA.
Thanks for this clarification, definitely boycotting the IPL from now on.
Didn't know about this. I will also not watch IPL because of this, unless they have a really good reason for doing it.
Me too. How is EU close enough but Korea isn't.....
I will NEVER watch any league that bars players from competing based on nationality.
Koreans are now going to win every single tournament that isn't a local LAN tourney, and even some of those (homestory) are going to be taken over. Good bye to foreigners winning anything!
On June 26 2011 08:45 unSpeake wrote: Koreans are now going to win every single tournament that isn't a local LAN tourney, and even some of those (homestory) are going to be taken over. Good bye to foreigners winning anything!
lol..... only if they decide they don't want to improve. Plus MC is in the losers bracket right now? It's not like he has gone through the tournament flawlessly.
From viewer point of view (from me when I watch tours) having koreans in foreign LAN's and online tournaments are amazing, I love watching korean vs foreigner especially better known koreans vs pretty much any foreigner is fun for me to watch - much more fun than regular NA vs NA or EU vs EU matchups so having koreans play everywhere is really good.
Now lets look other point of view from foreign progamers (and again from my point of view as one of them), I understand having koreans in big tournaments like TSL, dreamhack and such. But having koreans in EVERY LAN is a little bit too much, especially inviting same ones over and over (MC). So now I was reading this thread and I opened teamliquid open stream and I saw 6 koreans in top 8. What do you think how foreign progamers will feel about this "invasion" of koreans? Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with. I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above.
For example, if you would meet koreans in lets say 3 tournaments a year, you would want to improve and show better game next time and would be motivated to win vs korean and what you have now is that every korean enters foreigner tournament and wins it, foreigners will do worse and worse every next tournament (again im saying in general not specific players) because if you see player X foreigner gets destroyed by korean what makes you think you would be able to win? Foreigners will eventually stop bothering with LAN's once 10+ koreans enter every LAN and just quit playing online tournaments since number of koreans there is unlimited.
Again this is in general of foreigner scene, im not talking about specific players like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain for example, who plan to go in korea and compete with them. I have very strong attitude about wanting to compete with koreans in tournaments and win them, I myself want to do it just like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain already did it, but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
And last thing, think about upcoming masters players who have strong desire to become progamers, its hard enough having to fight vs EU/NA progamer scene already for them and once they become as good as them they start facing koreans, what then? This of course wont happen tomorrow, but it started with LAN's - now online tournaments and koreans joining foreigner teams, how long will foreigner progamers will have the attitude to become as good as koreans?
Like I said, for viewers - its great, for actual foreigner players..not so much.
My only real concern is that we still have some relatively big tournaments that are NA/EU only. I really hope people understand that if we want players from all around the world to keep playing, they have to be able to get good results at tournaments to not only get the prize money but also to more easily secure sponsorship.
On June 26 2011 08:48 Beastyqt wrote: From viewer point of view (from me when I watch tours) having koreans in foreign LAN's and online tournaments are amazing, I love watching korean vs foreigner especially better known koreans vs pretty much any foreigner is fun for me to watch - much more fun than regular NA vs NA or EU vs EU matchups so having koreans play everywhere is really good.
Now lets look other point of view from foreign progamers (and again from my point of view as one of them), I understand having koreans in big tournaments like TSL, dreamhack and such. But having koreans in EVERY LAN is a little bit too much, especially inviting same ones over and over (MC). So now I was reading this thread and I opened teamliquid open stream and I saw 6 koreans in top 8. What do you think how foreign progamers will feel about this "invasion" of koreans? Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with. I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above.
For example, if you would meet koreans in lets say 3 tournaments a year, you would want to improve and show better game next time and would be motivated to win vs korean and what you have now is that every korean enters foreigner tournament and wins it, foreigners will do worse and worse every next tournament (again im saying in general not specific players) because if you see player X foreigner gets destroyed by korean what makes you think you would be able to win? Foreigners will eventually stop bothering with LAN's once 10+ koreans enter every LAN and just quit playing online tournaments since number of koreans there is unlimited.
Again this is in general of foreigner scene, im not talking about specific players like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain for example, who plan to go in korea and compete with them. I have very strong attitude about wanting to compete with koreans in tournaments and win them, I myself want to do it just like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain already did it, but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
And last thing, think about upcoming masters players who have strong desire to become progamers, its hard enough having to fight vs EU/NA progamer scene already for them and once they become as good as them they start facing koreans, what then? This of course wont happen tomorrow, but it started with LAN's - now online tournaments and koreans joining foreigner teams, how long will foreigner progamers will have the attitude to become as good as koreans?
Like I said, for viewers - its great, for actual foreigner players..not so much.
Ya I think this is very well said. It is great to see Koreans in some tournaments. I personally loved events like MLG and Dreamhack, but I really hope there continues to be large tournaments to help out the NA and EU scene. I'm probably just repeating myself by now. :-/
but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
Good, I don't want to waste my time watching those defeatist minded players anyways.
we just want to see the best vs the best. doesnt matter if they are alien or American. Then no matter what it will bring in viewers.
but I do think that there has to be a korean vs foreigner element to bring an extra oomph to the excitement level. Korea vs America, Europe vs America, type of thing where fans will root for national pride!
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
Foreigners who practice as hard and as efficiently as most Korean progamers will be able to beat Korean progamers. There's no Starcraft gene Koreans are born with.
It's really a question of effort and money at this point, not of genetics.
see if we have more big foreigner tournaments. koreans will leave korea and play in them. We are seeing alot of koreans going into foreign teams such as fnatic, reign, etc. this is good for everyone
It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins.
My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing
On June 26 2011 08:48 Beastyqt wrote: I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
Then they are a disgrace to their profession and should quit and stick to playing ladder/customs with their friends like the rest of us who are too bad to compete. We don't want to watch them play.
On June 26 2011 08:48 Beastyqt wrote: ... Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with. I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above.
You say it'll never change because Koreans have team houses and practice schedules, etc., but there's no reason those things can't exist outside Korea. Yeah, lots of players (and I bet lots of teams, too) don't have the drive or practical circumstances to do those things. What's going to have to happen is that those players who do will consolidate and practice with each other (maybe dropping the number of foreign teams) and push to get as good as the Koreans. If there are enough talented people willing to do that, there will be an active sc2 pro scene in the west. If there aren't enough, the west will just be watching and it'll go back to anyone who wants to really earn a living playing having to move to Korea.
On June 26 2011 08:48 Beastyqt wrote: ... Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with. I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above.
You say it'll never change because Koreans have team houses and practice schedules, etc., but there's no reason those things can't exist outside Korea. Yeah, lots of players (and I bet lots of teams, too) don't have the drive or practical circumstances to do those things. What's going to have to happen is that those players who do will consolidate and practice with each other (maybe dropping the number of foreign teams) and push to get as good as the Koreans. If there are enough talented people willing to do that, there will be an active sc2 pro scene in the west. If there aren't enough, the west will just be watching and it'll go back to anyone who wants to really earn a living playing having to move to Korea.
Some European teams are already consolidating and forming houses. International competition might actually be working.
Seeing koreans owning it up has been very good. It just shows the players who practice the hardest and show dedication will achieve more. If foreigners who play much little could achieve the same success that would show how bad a game starcraft 2 is in terms of skill ceiling.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
I'm more than happy with a ton of Koreans playing internationally as long as they don't start outnumbering foreigners in global tournaments, then things might be out of hands, but even like 50/50 is all cool for me.
Why would I not want to see the best players whenever possible. Denying Koreans would be pretty pathetic.
wow everytime koreans compete in foreign tournaments and dominate, one of these threads pops up every single time. The answer is always the same... people wanna see the best of the best! It should make foreigners wanna step up their games!
On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote: The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
People pay massive amounts of money to see Flash and Jaedong play.
If foreigners are discouraged by Koreans playing in tourneys, they are a disgrace imho. They should be inspired to practice harder if the Koreans are dominating + they should be happy they are in the position to play against some of the best players in the world.
There isn't any reason why Koreans shouldn't participate in a NA tournament, just the same as there isn't be any reason why a German or Swede shouldn't participate in a NA tournament. Everyone has the same opportunity to play this game and be good, so there isn't any reason why everyone shouldn't have the same opportunity to participate in any tournament.
Another thing I like about Koreans winning a lot is that it shows that SC2 IS a skill based game and not a series of "coin flips" and "lucky wins" that a lot of people try to claim it is. If that was the case the hardest practicing and most skilled players would not consistently rise to the top.
Hopefully the rest of the world will get tired of being roflstomped by the Koreans and start playing better. Then we'll have a real worldwide competition.
On June 26 2011 08:54 Jakkerr wrote: It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins.
My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing
yes, they 4 gate. why do anything else when ur playing scrubs? I played hwangsin today, why would he do anything time consuming when he can 4gate me? when it gets to quarterfinals, when they reach bo3, they do other stuff. simple as that.
On June 26 2011 08:54 Jakkerr wrote: It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins.
My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing
yes, they 4 gate. why do anything else when ur playing scrubs? I played hwangsin today, why would he do anything time consuming when he can 4gate me? when it gets to quarterfinals, when they reach bo3, they do other stuff. simple as that.
Yep. look at July's average game time coming through the MLG open bracket. :D
On June 26 2011 08:54 Jakkerr wrote: It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins.
My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing
yes, they 4 gate. why do anything else when ur playing scrubs? I played hwangsin today, why would he do anything time consuming when he can 4gate me? when it gets to quarterfinals, when they reach bo3, they do other stuff. simple as that.
Reminds me of July baneling busting his way through the MLG Open Brackets. He must have been thinking get the hell out of the way scrubs or something. Or maybe he was just hungry
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
On June 26 2011 08:54 Jakkerr wrote: It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins.
My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing
yes, they 4 gate. why do anything else when ur playing scrubs? I played hwangsin today, why would he do anything time consuming when he can 4gate me? when it gets to quarterfinals, when they reach bo3, they do other stuff. simple as that.
Yep. look at July's average game time coming through the MLG open bracket. :D
july been doing short all in games since brood war vs anybody korean or not
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Koreans are still relatable.
I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL.
My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2."
Edit: Just to clarify once more, I am not saying I don't like watching Koreans or they are some strange creatures who I can't relate to or enjoy... but my other point was simply that to help esports grow and be accepted around the world, we have to help build it from the bottom. Having many tournaments that foreigners can play in and do well in will help them get sponsorship and prize money, so that esports can be more widely accepted so that it is more like Korea.
From that point it will be much easier to get a team house. Hell, just think of how much more sc2 is like SCBW Korea than foreign SCBW was. With sc2's popularity and acceptance, we are starting to see team houses, which is good. The players have been able to compete in large tournaments that attract many viewers, which helps get them more money... not give more money to Korea.
I don't really enjoy watching Korea vs Korea finals and stuff. I just dont. Maybe its because I don't realy relate to them in the same way or because the money in the west goes to south korea. Meh.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Koreans are still relatable.
I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL.
My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2."
I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support.
Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game.
Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra?
For sure. A lot of these guys have connected with the foreigner scene and people care about them and their results. It just takes time for these connections to form, they don't happen overnight.
A crowd of 1000+ wouldn't passionately chant MMA, MMA, MMA! if they didn't relate to the player himself.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Koreans are still relatable.
I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL.
My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2."
I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support.
Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game.
Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra?
What the fuck dude... are you trolling me? I clearly said twice that I can...
Can someone else help me here? Am I missing something? I thought I clearly said that I enjoy watching several koreans, and that my computer comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to another comment. I never called Koreans computers... wtf?
On June 26 2011 09:07 Wihl wrote: I don't really enjoy watching Korea vs Korea finals and stuff. I just dont. Maybe its because I don't realy relate to them in the same way or because the money in the west goes to south korea. Meh.
Frickin e-immigrants and their frickin work ethic, how dare they take money from our slackers
This is going to be the next big argument in politics in twenty years, e-immigration.
Make it a wake up call to all foreigner players that if they want to get their damn prize money they have to work for it. Practice is a priority to get as good as the Koreans.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Koreans are still relatable.
I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL.
My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2."
I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support.
Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game.
Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra?
What the fuck dude... are you trolling me? I clearly said twice that I can...
Can someone else help me here? Am I missing something? I thought I clearly said that I enjoy watching several koreans, and that my computer comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to another comment. I never called Koreans computers... wtf?
I wasn't meaning to criticise you, but the viewpoint you described in your post.
The only way us foreigners ever is gonna reach the Korean skillcap is if we play with them, and I do believe that everyone wants this as much as I do. Yes!
Having many tournaments that foreigners can play in and do well in will help them get sponsorship and prize money, so that esports can be more widely accepted so that it is more like Korea.
Nothing wrong with this. Hockey has NHL, AHL, College League, AAA, AA, A etc. etc.
This is totally fine, and it is a great system for developing good talent. It's this kind of "You're too good for the NHL" logic that has seemed to have pervaded some people's minds here. There ARE lower level leagues for these players to compete in, but they are not the GSL, NASL, MLG etc. (the rough equivalent of the NHL -> (the top hockey league)
I know it's hard for the rest of the regions to see that most of the players that owns at this tournaments are Koreans but IMO is the only way to really learn also.
Right now, every progamer SHOULD have a GSL and GSTL pro account to be able to watch the VODS and analize the Korean builds and their playstyle.
So yes, tournaments must be global once they become top level. And No, if tournaments are still growing up on level.
Let's take for example the Latinamerican Region, wich have the lowest level of all regions. To begin, the tournaments must be between latinamericans, so they fight each other and after a few months there is clearly a top 20 players that are always beating themselves up. After that, open the tournament for other regions like US & EU, where the ammount of top players is incredibly huge. And after Latinamerican players are able to show, that they can beat up top players from those regions, you bring in the Korean players.
That's my view for a progression in skill level for a region that is way behind.
You can make the analogy with a lenguage class room. You don't bring people that speak spanish to a beginner level class of spanish.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
I know that IPL have interest in expanding, but right now it's very exclusive to people living in EU/NA/LA.
Thanks for this clarification, definitely boycotting the IPL from now on.
Lol so what about GSL....same thing dude. you have to live in Korea and even with the new "exchange" program you get 1 month free...after that you have to pay everything yourself if you stay there to compete
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Koreans are still relatable.
I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL.
My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2."
I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support.
Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game.
Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra?
What the fuck dude... are you trolling me? I clearly said twice that I can...
Can someone else help me here? Am I missing something? I thought I clearly said that I enjoy watching several koreans, and that my computer comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to another comment. I never called Koreans computers... wtf?
I wasn't meaning to criticise you, but the viewpoint you described in your post.
Right, but you are criticizing me for saying Koreans are like computers, or just as relatable as computers, but the problem is I never said that. In fact I said the opposite a few times and went out of my way to explain the computer comment.
I would be far more concerned if the Koreans were completely ignoring the foreign scene. As it is, the scene's are mixing in a way that soon the foreign scene will be entirely too important to Korea to disappear. already we have had several Koreans (Rain and Oz) join foreign teams. It is likely that more will follow. As the Koreans join the scene they will bring their ideas, their builds, and their practise regiments with them. For the Foreign Pro gamers who stick it out, they will ultimately gain from Koreans interaction.
Honestly, I'd love for a couple foreign teams to hire Korean coaches as well as players. There is probably more than enough money in the scene for someone like FXO or Fnatic or EG to manage it.
That said, I think there should still be smaller regional tournaments. There is really no reason to have Koreans in the Zotac cups, people don't watch that for the games, they watch it for the players (more people play than watch anyway). Keep them out of the small money cups (Let them have their own, like the iCCup weekly), but I'm all for letting them play in MLG and Dreamhack.
Edit: I think that it is also important for the movement to be two way. We need the HuK's and the Jinro's and the FXO's to bring foreign styles to Korea as well. Keep up our image as potentially worthy competitors, not just walk-overs for money.
On June 26 2011 09:07 Wihl wrote: I don't really enjoy watching Korea vs Korea finals and stuff. I just dont. Maybe its because I don't realy relate to them in the same way or because the money in the west goes to south korea. Meh.
How can you not relate with them? Because they don't speak English? If you watch the group selection or watch their celebrations you can see they have a ton of personality.
All major events should be open to anyone, regardless of where they are from in my opinion.
I do find region-locked events to be highly enjoyable from time to time though, like for example the IEM Regional Championships, even though it is LAN. I would very much like to see some more of this online as well. As it is right now, online events generally only dictates what server it is played on, but doesn't really enforce or care about what region you are from. The only example that comes to mind for me right now that has done this, is the Viking Cup which is restricted to Nordic only iirc. There might be a ton that I have just missed though.
As a pure spectator I want to see the top dogs from across the wold duke it out, regardless of tournament.
As a player and ESPORTS-fanatic I would find it interesting to have several smaller- and "medium"-sized tournaments that are restricted to certain regions, which might in turn lead to the bigger ones. It would be cool to see the progress of say for example a Swedish player going from perhaps national -> Nordic -> EU -> Global. I dunno, just some thoughts.
May the better player win I say. This is good as it will give experience to the NA/EU players participating in the same events, it will only do them good in the long run.
There are a couple of different sides to this. First, do we want Koreans competing in major offline events. Fuck Yes. It raises the quality of games, and forces our players to buckle down and practice harder to earn their money. That being said, people complaining about tournaments just because they don't have Koreans in them is stupid, but more importantly hugely insulting to the players participating in them. There should still be a place for purely foreigner tournaments. While I do agree that having occasional Koreans domination events forces players to improve, having 70% of all current international prize money go to 1 country hurts the scene hugely. These tournament winning help pay for the players lives, and are important in gaining more sponsors. Having a developed group of talent come in and crushing an undeveloped group of talent proves nothing, and is damaging. Overall though, I still think there is a place for Koreans, if only to raise the standard of the game, and ensure players do not get lazy. As for small, online tournaments, I really don't like Koreans participating. Those events are not about the money, they are about the experience. It's about an up and coming player beating some old pros, or having the classic finals between the two people who are fighting for the wins every week. Having someone there purely because they have been practicing 10 hours a day is completely uninteresting to me personally. Those small events are about storylines and atmosphere, and not about THE ABSOLUTE PINNACLE OF PLAY. Oh, and another thing. People saying that if you have the skill you deserve to win every tournament that exist. That's bullshit. There's a reason Barcelona don't play in the Ukrainian Premier League, or Manchester United are competing for the League 1 title as well. It's senseless for someone at the top edge of the game (fighting for thousands of dollars) to be playing against a nonamer for 50$ online. It really shouldn't happen, and stops the growth of new players. And one more thing. "I don't care who wins, I support the person that plays the best." WHAT? Why is it that esports flies in the face of every other sport on the planet. Anywhere else, and that would be called what it is, glory hunting. I'm not saying people should be fanatically loyal to only 1 player or team, but there should be a concept of loyalty. Whether through great gameplay or having a good personality, people should appreciate and support the players. The moment someone loses should not be a reason to stop supporting them.
I only want to see the best playing starcraft. So it doesn't bother me which country they are from. It only gives us a motivation to train harder. On top of that, it is good for 'foreigners" to face new competition as most of them aren't able to access to the KR server and are thus unfamiliar with the Korean style. So all in all, I think it's only beneficial to both spectators and players.
"Yes, make online tournaments and qualifiers global. We want to watch the best! (NASL Style)"
Pretty much. I love most events that brings people from different countries/cultures. Doesn't really have to be E-Sports.. I just loved the WC in football, The Champions league, Ice Hockey and everything.
Funny thing is though, I'm not really a sports guy myself. I just love it when people from different countries/cultures come together and have a really good time. Peace and love folks!
I wonder, for those few who disagree, is it only koreans you want excluded? ^^ Kinda hard to justify australians/peruvians/what-have-you in NA/EU events if south koreans can't come.
Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
2a. Tournaments divide between international, Korean and maybe China. Why invite Koreans to your U.S. based tournaments when you KNOW they'll just take your money?
2b. SC2 scene grows large enough that tournament organizers/viewers are just happy with watching 95% Korean tournaments. Think black people in track and field.
Realistically though, 2a and to a lesser extent, 2b will happen soon. Most likely right after both expansion packs.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
On June 26 2011 09:15 MCDayC wrote: Oh, and another thing. People saying that if you have the skill you deserve to win every tournament that exist. That's bullshit. There's a reason Barcelona don't play in the Ukrainian Premier League, or Manchester United are competing for the League 1 title as well. It's senseless for someone at the top edge of the game (fighting for thousands of dollars) to be playing against a nonamer for 50$ online. It really shouldn't happen, and stops the growth of new players. And one more thing. "I don't care who wins, I support the person that plays the best." WHAT? Why is it that esports flies in the face of every other sport on the planet. Anywhere else, and that would be called what it is, glory hunting. I'm not saying people should be fanatically loyal to only 1 player or team, but there should be a concept of loyalty. Whether through great gameplay or having a good personality, people should appreciate and support the players. The moment someone loses should not be a reason to stop supporting them.
Comparing Starcraft to sports is a common pitfall in these arguments. It just doesn't work that way. The same rules do not apply, and probably never will. Just look at Starcraft for what it is instead of constructing a flawed analogy with something that's actually completely unrelated.
If it was senseless for a top player to compete for $50 online against a no-namer, he just wouldn't compete. These guys are actually on really tight schedules. The fact that they actually do take time to compete in these tournaments indicates that to them it is not senseless at all. We can speculate on why that is the case, but as long as they find it worth their time to play the tournaments, you can't argue that it makes no sense.
In Starcraft, the best way for a serious player to improve is to be trashed over and over again by players better than him (slight exaggeration, but the point remains). Every ambitious player who plays in these online tournaments will appreciate the fact that they can play against higher quality opponents. Playing on or around your own level (unless you're already at the top) is completely pointless and a waste of time. That's what ladder is for.
As for the fans, most fans are actually Starcraft fans, rather than hardcore fans of teams/players (obviously not all, but most). Most fans of sc2 as an esport are also quite active players themselves, and watch the games from a player's (technical) point of view. None of this is the case in football (for the vast majority of fans).
Just stop with the TvT finals. Can we please restrict how many Terran players are allowed instead?
Edit: The last time this was brought up, I mentioned how Japan has recently become a threat in Baseball. They did it by importing large amounts of MLB players from North America. People will rise to the level of their opponents.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
stop whining about koreans taking our money/titles, if you want to be able to compete with them, train harder. its as simple as that, we have a home field advantage (note: latency) and we are still not able to beat them in most cases simply because they have better dedication to the game and train harder. as i always said back in the broodwar days, the best way to learn in starcraft is through losing games, if we don't allow koreans to play in our tourneys the finals wont be as good.
On June 26 2011 08:53 acker wrote: Foreigners who practice as hard and as efficiently as most Korean progamers will be able to beat Korean progamers. There's no Starcraft gene Koreans are born with.
It's really a question of effort and money at this point, not of genetics.
I agree. Either you commit your self as a progamer and practice hard as the koreans or you don't and get left behind in skills. As for the koreans participating in foreign events, they deserve to because there isn't any rules against it and they give us the most entertaining games.
On June 26 2011 09:32 Ravencruiser wrote: Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
This is a racist comment tbh. You are saying that koreans are just better, not because of their train or anything, but just because they are korean. And if the foreigners will be able to compete, then the game has a lower skill-ceiling? This is just wrong.
As long as foreigners work as hard as them, there will never be a skill-difference like in BW. There will obviously be more talent there, because of their culture, but the top-foreigner will always be able to compete with them, as long as they put in as much effort it as they are.
There were no foreign progamers in BW for many years, this is the sole reason why there was/is such a big skill gap. In warcraft 3 there were progamers in korea AND in the rest of the world and players like Grubby and ToD could always compete with the best koreans. In the end, China even surpassed Korea as the #1-country.
I know there is even more korean talent in sc2 compared to wc3, still there are many foreign players who have the talent to compete against the best koreans and this number will only grow with sc2 getting really big right now.
If we establish similar training-conditions, there is no reason why koreans should be the better players.
"Letting the foreigner scene catch up" is no excuse. Korea only had a 15 hour head start, until SC2 was released to NA. They have had the same time to train, while korea has most of the talent pool locked up in BW.
On June 26 2011 09:32 Ravencruiser wrote: Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
This is a racist comment tbh. You are saying that koreans are just better, not because of their train or anything, but just because they are korean. And if the foreigners will be able to compete, then the game has a lower skill-ceiling? This is just wrong.
As long as foreigners work as hard as them, there will never be a skill-difference like in BW. There will obviously be more talent there, because of their culture, but the top-foreigner will always be able to compete with them, as long as they put in as much effort it as they are.
There were no foreign progamers in BW for many years, this is the sole reason why there was/is such a big skill gap. In warcraft 3 there were progamers in korea AND in the rest of the world and players like Grubby and ToD could always compete with the best koreans. In the end, China even surpassed Korea as the #1-country.
I know there is even more korean talent in sc2 compared to wc3, still there are many foreign players who have the talent to compete against the best koreans and this number will only grow with sc2 getting really big right now.
If we establish similar training-conditions, there is no reason why koreans should be the better players.
As soon as I saw your first sentence I knew the rest will be uninformed and idiotic. Koreans do, on average, train harder than foreigners.
Did you even read my comment or just the first sentence? I never doubted that koreans train harder on average. All I'm saying is that there is no reason why foreigners should be worse if they train just as hard and HuK is proving this right now.
It is all going to come up to how foreign teams organize their teams with the practice in korea and foreigners not being lazy and train like the same as koreans do.Seriously excuses are dumb,players getting discouraged by this is pitiful.AND whoever think that koreans have a better established income,or playing in a better condition is absurd.I wonder what the pros think about when they get paid to coach 70$/h when they get demolished by b-team korean,western scene is so flawed
I don't see the point. Seeing a favorite EU or NA player in GSL is quite fun to watch. Online tournaments are plagued by lag FOR BOTH PLAYERS when Koreans play. I guess some people can't afford a GSL ticket? All tournaments are going to start looking awfully similar because they all want to be the WCG.
On June 26 2011 08:00 Bobster wrote: It's absolutely awesome.
I love seeing Starcraft II to become a global sport. All the more incentive for NA/EU players to ramp up their game.
Huk and Naniwa had some meaningful wins against Koreans lately, I love seeing the best from every region compete with each other.
Koreans participating now makes something global now? I think the fear is that continued Korean dominance will quickly turn this into a Korean sport like BW.
Absolutely they should be participating, if every wants to keep saying the skill cap is becoming non-existant then we have to play with them to prove it. As long as the conditions are equal in terms of opportunity on both sides this should be a non issue.
Hopefully having koreans in the tournament will inspire the foreigner scene to step their game up. We've seen Huk win Dreamhack, so its clearly about the practice regimen and team house dynamics. If koreans start to win a lot of our tournaments, maybe we can get similar setups in EU/NA
I'm not the biggest fan of seeing them in online tournaments for the sole reason of they're playing with a latency disadvantage. I want to see players playing at their full potential under the best conditions. They seem to be doing alright regardless though so whatever.
On June 26 2011 09:32 Ravencruiser wrote: Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
This is a racist comment tbh. You are saying that koreans are just better, not because of their train or anything, but just because they are korean. And if the foreigners will be able to compete, then the game has a lower skill-ceiling? This is just wrong.
As long as foreigners work as hard as them, there will never be a skill-difference like in BW. There will obviously be more talent there, because of their culture, but the top-foreigner will always be able to compete with them, as long as they put in as much effort it as they are.
There were no foreign progamers in BW for many years, this is the sole reason why there was/is such a big skill gap. In warcraft 3 there were progamers in korea AND in the rest of the world and players like Grubby and ToD could always compete with the best koreans. In the end, China even surpassed Korea as the #1-country.
I know there is even more korean talent in sc2 compared to wc3, still there are many foreign players who have the talent to compete against the best koreans and this number will only grow with sc2 getting really big right now.
If we establish similar training-conditions, there is no reason why koreans should be the better players.
As soon as I saw your first sentence I knew the rest will be uninformed and idiotic. Koreans do, on average, train harder than foreigners.
The problem is that these "scenarios" don't take into account the possibility [and fact] that foreigners can up their game to move towards Korea's level of training. It's undeniable that within the first year of SC2, we reasonably argue that we have seen far more "korean" training in the foreign scene than the sum of BW, with the oGs-Liquid partnership, the establishment of foreign progamer houses, the foreign teams participating in the GSTL, and the MLG-GSL partnership.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss.
I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team.
The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
Guys it is so simple if you want an online league without Korean players host in on the EU server they can not play on it. NA tournaments can be worldwide EU tournaments can be western only simple. (unless more people like rain move to the west) So there is still lots of tournaments and money for foreign players to win there is no problem.
I read most of the comments and i love reading about how this will kill e-sports in the west. The fact is 90% of people wanna watch koreans play. There are a minority of players who are taking nationality too seriously. Did people stop watching counterstrike because sweden kept on winning? Do people stop watching barcalona games because barcalona is such a beastly team? No...people will keep watching because the korean style of play is the best at the moment and because some want to see foreigners fight vs koreans and to see how well they do but 90% of people will cheer for whoever wins, korean or not. look at dreamhack and mlg when mma and mc won...people were shouting mma mma mma! Those are the real sc2 fans we cannot afford to lose.
The poll says that 90% of the voters want unrestricted access for all players and i agree with this.
You shouldn't exclude anybody based on their race otherwise the world will end up like malaysia which has a racist policy that excludes non-malays in many areas of work.
90% of the voters are voting for what is right and the sc2 community has overwhelmingly spoken that all they want are top games vs the top players. For those people who say i only wanna watch people i know and only wanna watch eu people play...sorry but get real !
If more koreans play in big tournaments, the better eu/na players will become. It's only logical that overexposure to the korean style of play will produce better equipped na/eu players who can deal with the korean style by countering with their own style or using the korean style. 90% of the players who voted want to see the best games. Nobody wants to see regional events. Sorry but real fans want to see the best play and that's that.
SPOILER ALERT!!!! Naniwa got rolled by mc recently but in the homestory cup he got revenge. I would like to think it's because naniwa saw those replays and analysed mc...i hope so
at the end of the day....i like all the sc2 players...i am a fan of the teamliquid players, white ra, mma nestea mc...i like all types of players from all regions.
On June 26 2011 10:23 TyrantPotato wrote: i find your choice of words in the title of this thread disgusting.
its not an invasion its participation.
Don't get hung up on it, the OP is just trying to get people's attention. The word 'Invasion' makes Koreans sound more badass anyway
I'm glad that NA and EU tournaments are attract THE BEST competition. I wouldn't subscribe to NASL otherwise.
At the same time, I hope the NASL looks at ways to 'bridge the gap' and help foster the North American scene. I how no idea how this would happen or what this will look like, but I can imagine the disparity in skill between NA/EU and Korean discouraging, versus motivating, the foreign scene.
Things like spreading the prize money more in big tournaments or having more qualifiers might help. Basically, there needs to be more opportunities to win small rewards to help tide the NA scene over as they try to close the skill gap.
Canadians and EU players invaded American NHL, yet people still watch NHL. Not to mention that the Boston team that won was composted of 17 Canadians and only 3 Americans.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss.
I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team.
The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
Read the first paragraph of my initial response to you. It shows that you are just making assumptions that I don't think Koreans have personality, or that I don't enjoy watching them. You are trying to make a connection between my response to you saying 'all you care about is seeing the best games' and whether or not I enjoy watching Koreans. There isn't a connection there. I simply had direct response to you only caring about the highest quality of play which didn't even have to do with nationality whatsoever.
I think if the level of competition begins to rise globally then the foreigners will start getting better to keep up. Playing against a field of poor competition will breed complacency, the better the field is the better the players will become. More Koreans in global competitions, boo to isolationism.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
Thats quite ignorant of you to say since you don't know all the facts. You are right that there aren't any factors limiting them from actually playing in the tournament, but it's possible there's a lot of legal issues in some of those regions since a lot of money is involved. Anyway my point is we don't really know all the details, and you are making assumptions.
I guess it can't be that bad if NASL can do it, but hopefully things get worked out in the future. I don't think koreans should be excluded at all.
As much as I love the foreigner scenes and can relate to foreigners (and root for them) i would feel wrong excluding Koreans because they are better than us.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss.
I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team.
The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
What? That is not the case at all, especially with the more lax SC2 leagues, hell even in KESPA days we had a lot of guys exuding personality. I mean a lot of people say that korean players are boring but I don't think that is the case at all, and even if they had less personality that is why moments such as this were so special
Naniwa got rolled by mc recently but in the homestory cup he got revenge. I would like to think it's because naniwa saw those replays and analysed mc...i hope so
Game 1 at MLG was a build order loss for Naniwa although he could have won probably without the dancing.
Game 2 at MLG was a build order loss for Naniwa although he was real stupid not to four gate on Taldarim
Game 1 at Homestory was a build order win for Naniwa.
Game 2 at Homestory was a build order win for Naniwa but he lost through sniped obs (the was basically the first time in four games anyone did anything high level besides just blind build orders and winning or losing through them)
Game 3 at Homestory. Naniwa got fast upgrades and hit a nice timing denying the third, he deserved the win.
In conclusion PvP is a bit dumb, if both players are of comparable skill it's mostly just build orders and a lot of luck and even if players are pretty far apart you can easilly lose to someone worse than you.
On June 26 2011 10:44 Kezzer wrote: As much as I love the foreigner scenes and can relate to foreigners (and root for them) i would feel wrong excluding Koreans because they are better than us.
It would be like excluding Black people form Basketball. Well, not really. But it would be a blatant form of xenophobia.
I'm sure if Bennetton Treviso could convince Kobe Byrant, Dwayne Wade or even Rudy Gay to join their team and play in Italy, the whole league would readily accept them. The better the players, the more consistent and watchable the product is in the long run.
Another example: Although NCAA Basketball is exciting, no one gives a shit about it outside of America. The NBA attracts a global audience because it has the best players.
If koreans dominating and taking all the foreign money kills western esports, then so be it. It's natural selection and just means the west wasn't ready for an esports scene.
I'm not really interested in foreign players besides huk and jinro, so if the foreign scene dies I won't really miss it because I'll still have the gsl to watch.
Guys that voted "No," don't worry, I just checked with iNcontroL. He has assured me that he will enter every tournament with a Korean in it, to ensure that he will not let something as crazy as a Korean winning it "let it happen ever again."
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss.
I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team.
The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
Read the first paragraph of my initial response to you. It shows that you are just making assumptions that I don't think Koreans have personality, or that I don't enjoy watching them. You are trying to make a connection between my response to you saying 'all you care about is seeing the best games' and whether or not I enjoy watching Koreans. There isn't a connection there. I simply had direct response to you only caring about the highest quality of play which didn't even have to do with nationality whatsoever.
Look how you decided to reword your response that the human beings playing SC2 would be "plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews" which is the stereotype that has been going about Koreans. My mistake if you didn't intend that.
Point is luckily for you and me, every single player has a personality and by the sheer amount of players not everyone will be "plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews". So to answer your question as directly as possible, yes I would watch the best play with zero personality. Luckily that will never be the case.
I think that this is exactly what we should be wanting to turn SC2 into a global ESPORT. I want to see the best players in the tournaments, and eventually see the maybe more popular players learn to match their skill, not just be in separate tournaments.
I'd love to see NA players take home all the NA prize money so they can have a chance to build up the logistical aspect of being a pro-gaming society. Previously it was impossible for a group of nerds to support themselves and a pro-gaming house purely from winnings, and had to sacrifice critical practice times to do so. I love watching Koreans participate, but I would like to see NA players given the chance to put themselves in a position to succeed before they take on the rest of the world.
On June 26 2011 08:49 Chicane wrote: My only real concern is that we still have some relatively big tournaments that are NA/EU only. I really hope people understand that if we want players from all around the world to keep playing, they have to be able to get good results at tournaments to not only get the prize money but also to more easily secure sponsorship.
On June 26 2011 08:48 Beastyqt wrote: From viewer point of view (from me when I watch tours) having koreans in foreign LAN's and online tournaments are amazing, I love watching korean vs foreigner especially better known koreans vs pretty much any foreigner is fun for me to watch - much more fun than regular NA vs NA or EU vs EU matchups so having koreans play everywhere is really good.
Now lets look other point of view from foreign progamers (and again from my point of view as one of them), I understand having koreans in big tournaments like TSL, dreamhack and such. But having koreans in EVERY LAN is a little bit too much, especially inviting same ones over and over (MC). So now I was reading this thread and I opened teamliquid open stream and I saw 6 koreans in top 8. What do you think how foreign progamers will feel about this "invasion" of koreans? Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with. I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above.
For example, if you would meet koreans in lets say 3 tournaments a year, you would want to improve and show better game next time and would be motivated to win vs korean and what you have now is that every korean enters foreigner tournament and wins it, foreigners will do worse and worse every next tournament (again im saying in general not specific players) because if you see player X foreigner gets destroyed by korean what makes you think you would be able to win? Foreigners will eventually stop bothering with LAN's once 10+ koreans enter every LAN and just quit playing online tournaments since number of koreans there is unlimited.
Again this is in general of foreigner scene, im not talking about specific players like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain for example, who plan to go in korea and compete with them. I have very strong attitude about wanting to compete with koreans in tournaments and win them, I myself want to do it just like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain already did it, but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
And last thing, think about upcoming masters players who have strong desire to become progamers, its hard enough having to fight vs EU/NA progamer scene already for them and once they become as good as them they start facing koreans, what then? This of course wont happen tomorrow, but it started with LAN's - now online tournaments and koreans joining foreigner teams, how long will foreigner progamers will have the attitude to become as good as koreans?
Like I said, for viewers - its great, for actual foreigner players..not so much.
Ya I think this is very well said. It is great to see Koreans in some tournaments. I personally loved events like MLG and Dreamhack, but I really hope there continues to be large tournaments to help out the NA and EU scene. I'm probably just repeating myself by now. :-/
If all european and na players had such a weak mentality then they deserve to lose. But i know there are many exceptions! see below!
Look at huk. I always watched huk's stream and few months back he always made huge mistakes during tournaments (seemed like nerves) and got knocked out because he played bad. But huk has a korean mentality. He practices hard and even though he had a bad run he recovered to win dreamhack (and possibly homestory!). I believe jinro also has this mentality. He got knocked down to code a but he will go back to code s eventually. I believe the majority of true starcraft 2 fans only want to see the best sc2 players play. I also read grubby's comment (dunno if it's real grubby), but i believe players like grubby cannot feel proud if koreans are ommitted. The real progamers want to play against the best, win or lose. if you don't want to play the best, don't play esports or real sports.
Sorry but if you have a weak mentality then it's best to not even consider progaming since progaming is a hard profession to dedicate your life to but it has a lot of unique rewards.
i can't see how foreign players would be allowed to call themselves progamers if koreans weren't allowed or handicapped (such as only allowing a certain number of koreans participating) from foreign tournaments.
In theory I welcome a Korean "online invasion", but in practice Koreans occupying the top 3 or 4 spots in every tournament will destroy my interest in the SC2 progaming scene. A competition that is dominated by a single country is neither mature nor very interesting.
Am I the only one concerned with say, unknown foreign players not being able to get recognition if all the koreans take up slots in the tournaments?
I mean look at Thorzain, a complete unknown and since he won a TL open and managed to win the TSL hes been propelled to instant star status among the likes of Naniwa and HuK, I gotta say, could this have happened if all the TL opens were all filled with Koreans?
I just wish the Korean scene players would interact more with the foreign scene, not just playing in tournaments. I understand there is a language barrier but It would be nice. Im sure even those few here who have a problem with this "Korean invasion" wouldn't care if the Korean players made an effort to introduce themselves to the foreign scene.
That said that will naturally happen as we are more exposed to them in this way. I mean look at MC. He did some commentating at dreamhack. He does stuff for the fans. Right now many of the Koreans in the Teamspeak tournament may have been unknowns to many of people here however if they continue entering this will no longer be the case.
Basically what I'm trying to say is I would prefer it to not be a case of take the money and run back to Korea until the next tournament. I would like it if they interacted with the foreign community more.
However even if it ends up a case of taking the money and running back to Korea without so much as an interview It is still good that they are competing.
My baisic logic is, its supposed to be open since they are online tournaments. If this means Koreans dominating the online tournaments, so be it, the foreign scene will HAVE to get better as a result of it. I still think local online tournaments should stay local (aka Zotac EU for EU only, the US version for US only) to groom lower tier of good players, but at the highest level it should be the best players, and that means letting all the Korean progamers have all the benefits EU and US progamers have
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
I believe MC interacts with fans more than any other foreigner i've ever seen. Also mma did his hadouken when he won mlg.
I haven't seen any eu/na player have the same level of interaction in sc2 when they won a tournament or during a tournment as those two i've mentioned.
Which non koreans have high fived people and done the two thumbs down? Sorry but i think even the koreans are winning on the fan interaction front and they don't even speak english well!
Also, since you are from america, you can appreciate the fact that koreans just want to live the american dream...i.e they want to work hard and get rewards based on their work ethics without discrimination. They want the freedom to enter tournaments and work hard and win or lose based on their performance. To deny them this would be disgusting! if koreans were banned i would quit watching any sc2 games and quit this forum also.
also can you imagine if the GSL banned all foreigners because they were not on the same level as koreans? can you imagine how bad that would look? well that's exactly what this thread is doing but in reverse!
I personally find it hilarious that a country with 50 million people completely dominates the 6 billion other people in the world at this game.
Whatever arguments you people present in this thread are pointless. Koreans will continue to play and win most online tournaments. Any league or tournament excluding them will pretty much have no recognition.
People say there's no racism etc, but if you look at the results of these tournaments, EU players are also dominating NA players pretty hard, yet you don't see anyone complaining about it, asking whether we should ban Europeans from entering...
When Koreans dominate, it becomes a problem suddenly.. Interesting, no?
I want to see the best players, and the most interesting games. If Koreans are the best, then the more of them enter tournaments, the better...
The only disagreement I have with this thread is referring to a global tournament as NASL style. But meh.
Anyone should be allowed open entry to a tournament.
On June 26 2011 07:26 Q(-_-Q wrote: Why do people care if Koreans come and take the money in our tournaments? The best player should win the cash.
It's not "our" money. We have no right to it as a nation, race or hemisphere. It's the best players money. Or, to put it with less naive, it's the winner of a tournaments money.
While discussions like this must be had openly, since they would surely be had privately if it wasn't allowed, I am embarrassed that we're discussing the idea of not allowing Koreans into tournaments simply because they are too good.
I want to see the best of the best. I also want to see 'B-teamers' in action that we don't see in the GSL. It's great to see more Korean players in foreign events, more power to them!
On June 26 2011 11:42 sitromit wrote: People say there's no racism etc, but if you look at the results of these tournaments, EU players are also dominating NA players pretty hard, yet you don't see anyone complaining about it, asking whether we should ban Europeans from entering...
When Koreans dominate, it becomes a problem suddenly.. Interesting, no?
A couple reasons:
1) Culture. Yes EU and USA are different, but there's a lot of the same heritage, common language, etc.
2) EU > NA overall, but NA has some very good players (idra, Huk) so there's not the same perceived domination as Korea has over everybody.
3) Korea is esports central. It's not much different than the "USSR vs The World" chess matches back when the USSR was a thing (except Korea is smaller than the USSR was, obviously).
I really don't think there's any racism in it: everyone acknowledges that Korea is the powerhouse due to culture, training, history, and so forth and so of course they're what everybody else compares themselves to. Of course there's an "us vs. them" mentality working into it, but it's got nothing to do with race. If for some reason Sweden or Germany or whatever country started dominating the SC2 scene for years on end I guarantee that the "them" would shift from Korea to the new center of dominance.
It just pushes North American and European Esports forward because they are going to have to work harder and maybe get more training houses. But from an economic standpoint it is pretty bad because this is how they make their living... But Koreans make their living like that too so it is no big deal. I kind of have a problem with it though because you can't really get foreigners into Korean on line tourneys so i think it isn't quite fair but who cares.
if people dont like koreans dominating their tournaments better start training harder or just become an observer, either way i just want to be entertained/watch the best play! :D
I think it's fantastic. The more the non-koreans players play the korean pros, the more they'll realise they need to step up to keep up. It might seem like doom and gloom right now but I think it'll bear fruit in the long term. It's also good for the fans that they're watching the best of the best.
On June 26 2011 07:10 MassIncestor wrote: awesome, the best players should participate
i don't care about nationality, but skill
This. While I do love to watch some favorite players, I'd prefer to see the best of the best duking it out then lower skilled people who live closer to me.
The best way for our own Western players to get better is to be forced to compete against the best. "Letting the scene grow on it's own" is a sham argument since our eventual goal is to produce the best anyway, and that'll just happen faster when necessity presses on our players.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
Logistics sounds like a very bad excuse for wanting to protect local interests from outside competition. If the logistical reason given was true then EU/LA players wouldn't be able to participate either.
Edit: Oh, right, as you mentioned later language barrier might also have played a part. I have to agree with you that locking out players based on were they live isn't as discriminatory as doing it purely by nationality.
On June 26 2011 12:24 Fianchetto wrote: time for foreigners to actually start practicing i guess?
Yep. The foreign scene won't get better if we exclude koreans and "throw money" at some pros so that they can make a good living. They will only get more lazy then. Also the money to fund team houses comes from the teams not the players. So teams need money => need sponsors => sponsors need attention => attention is apparantly generated by tournaments with koreans.
So koreans will help us grow esports, get funding and challenge the players.
Foreign players should be held to a higher standard. I don't watch games between, say, Moman and coLSteak (I have nothing against them, they're just two lower-level players) because I know I'm not watching the best. One player might win because the other player messed up big-time, and I don't want to see someone win because the other person gave them that win.
So I don't mind seeing Koreans in foreign tournaments. If this motivates foreigners to practice harder, then I'd like to see that. For example, today in the Homestory Cup we saw two of the best protosses - Naniwa and MC - go at it, and Naniwa won not because MC made some huge error, but because he played better than MC without MC screwing up.
Foreigners have to improve, simple as that. There are more foreigners playing and they have a better monetary incentive. The only thing that seperates them from the koreans is laziness and a desire to get easy money instead of becoming the best.
i noticed how just the other two categories got more votes when the xenophobic rednecks come out to play during the evening hours in north america. it was at 90+% earlier.
On June 26 2011 07:13 iYiYi wrote: NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at ,qualifying!
That is an unbelievably ridiculous blanket statement that is based nowhere in fact or reality.
i noticed how just the other two categories got more votes when the xenophobic rednecks come out to play during the evening hours in north america. it was at 90+% earlier.
I'm not even quite sure how to respond to this, regional qualifiers make a lot of sense, I like the idea of having representatives from each region at a tournament and seeing who can represent there region the best. Furthermore it makes practical sense, as everyone would compete in the qualifier from their respective region, instead of asking players to try to obtain accounts for the different regions if they want to participate, (to be perfectly clear, I am referring to qualifiers for larger events, not tournaments in general.) and giving an unfair advantage to players who are able to play on there own server as they would have much less lag than players trying to play from different regions.
Calling everyone who has a differing opinion than yours a "xenophobic redneck" is a ludicrous generalization that no where near reflects my reasons for preferring regional qualifiers, get off your damn high horse and stop putting people down who have a different opinion than yours.
My own opinion, is that Koreans in foreigner events is badly needed to motivate and encourage foreigner teams and players to step up their games and get even more serious about this.
The one thing this should do most is set a fire to all the pros outside of korea that they need to up their training (though this has probably happened already. They should never be content with their skill level and should always be looking to further themselves.
On June 26 2011 07:13 iYiYi wrote: NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at qualifying!
That is an unbelievably ridiculous blanket statement that is based nowhere in fact or reality.
It is pretty true. All the time you see a foreigner back off and go into "macro mode" against another player whereas a player like July or MC would go "oh, that's what you have? well, I guess I'll just kill you with a perfectly executed timing push." You can see games like MC v Cloud where MC three gate expands and then just goes kill him with sentries, I can think of very few foreign protoss who would do that. Most foreigner pros seem to have little idea about strict specific timings except some special cases like IdrA and Socke who seem to have a very analytical approach to the ggame.
On June 26 2011 11:42 sitromit wrote: People say there's no racism etc, but if you look at the results of these tournaments, EU players are also dominating NA players pretty hard, yet you don't see anyone complaining about it, asking whether we should ban Europeans from entering...
When Koreans dominate, it becomes a problem suddenly.. Interesting, no?
I want to see the best players, and the most interesting games. If Koreans are the best, then the more of them enter tournaments, the better...
On June 26 2011 07:13 iYiYi wrote: NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at qualifying!
That is an unbelievably ridiculous blanket statement that is based nowhere in fact or reality.
It is pretty true. All the time you see a foreigner back off and go into "macro mode" against another player whereas a player like July or MC would go "oh, that's what you have? well, I guess I'll just kill you with a perfectly executed timing push." You can see games like MC v Cloud where MC three gate expands and then just goes kill him with sentries, I can think of very few foreign protoss who would do that. Most foreigner pros seem to have little idea about strict specific timings except some special cases like IdrA and Socke who seem to have a very analytical approach to the ggame.
Ok a statement such as "For the most part, with some major exceptions, Korean players in general seem to have a wider array of refined timings" would be an acceptable and accurate statement, his was definitely not.
I have no such patriotic feelings to cheer for foreigners or koreans. The best should win, not "the best foreigner", I cheer for who I want to, and so I could care less if Koreans won every tournament from now till the end of sc2.
Every progamer speaks about love for the game. Given this, no one should be able to say that tournaments should be limited to only players of a certain region. If a tournament has decided that it can accomodate players from all regions, then all able players should compete. If the top placing competitiors in that tournament happen to be of a certain region, so be it.
Koreans practice more than foreigners, this is pretty much uncontested. Now that they're dominating tournaments organized by foreigners, this should be an eye opener to foreign progamers. If they truly love the game and are competitors, then they will want to become better. Anyone that says Korean dominance hurts eSports is naive and possibly too delusional about the skill level of their favorite players. We've already seen the initiation of a few progaming houses outside of Korea. Foreigners obviously want to use the Korean model of training. eSports isn't getting derailed anytime soon because progamers are becoming discouraged by Korean dominance.
A great majority of the foreign progamers that they welcome fiercer competition. Naniwa has said that the harder the opponent, the better.
One problem I foresee is if Korean players begin to dominate foreign tournaments en masse, sponsors may be less likely to back teams or tournaments, which would be a devastating blow for both scenes.
Fewer tournaments in the West = less incentive for foreigners to work as hard (think BW scenario). Meanwhile, Koreans are stuck with just the GSL, which really isn't enough to support their scene alone.
I support anyone and everyone regardless of nationality, to participate in tournaments. As long as they have the skill and luck to get up the brackets, its fair game.
I see this as a good thing in two ways, we get to see top tier play more often in these tournaments, and I as a spectator want to see the best play. The other thing is not only motivation for the non-Korean players, but actual Korean strategy leaking into the foreigner's game. I believe that even though Korean's and non-Korean's played the same game, there was that little something that brought Korean players over the edge. As Korean's and non-Korean's rarely played each other before, this is a GREAT opportunity for the non-Korean players to learn.
The only issue I can see with this is, alot of non-Korean players losing motivation if Korean's dominate hard. But I trust that the non-Korean players will instead step up there game.
Korean's or non-Korean's, we are all human. The only thing that is different is the environment we live in.
On June 26 2011 15:13 rift wrote: One problem I foresee is if Korean players begin to dominate foreign tournaments en masse, sponsors may be less likely to back tournaments, which would be a devastating blow for both scenes.
Fewer tournaments in the West = less incentive for foreigners to work as hard (think BW scenario). Meanwhile, Koreans are stuck with just the GSL, which really isn't enough to support their scene alone.
Why would sponsors stop backing tournaments? I mean I could understand them not backing foreigner teams so much if it comes to that but why no tournaments? As long as people are watching them I don't see a reason for that
Listen to what Catz has to say. A korean invasion of foreign online tournaments will ruin the last route by which upcoming foreigners can make a name for themselves. If all tournaments are just full of Koreans who already have the infrastructure and society set up around growing starcraft, then the foreign scene will never be able to reach the same level as the korean scene. Korea's success in E-Sports is largely due to its national support for the players. If koreans begin to win foreign tournaments and take all the prize money then foreigners will never have the ability to achieve the success that koreans have. Foreigners need that korean free competition in order to have motivation to improve and better themselves as players, otherwise the already established Korean scene will foreer dominate the slowly expanding foreign scene.
Glad the poll turned out the way it did. I don't know if that is common knowledge, but what I've been taught, not letting people participate in tournaments because of their origin is considered as racism.
And really: why would we as supposedly rational human beings deny the Koreans the chance to apply what they learned in endless hours of practice? I mean, it's not like they were good because it lies within their DNA (I suppose), but because they know how to make a business out of a game and how to practice to their limits. After all, they deserve to showcase that skill and earn the corresponding price money.
it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
we're not discussing that they should be banned cuz of being korean (at least i hope).
i agree that the best player should win but to be concerned with the growth of foreigner esports, if we consider that korean will always be better than foreigner because they are playing much more, then we will never see anything else than korean win any tournies. and is that good for said growth of esports?
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
we're not discussing that they should be banned cuz of being korean (at least i hope).
i agree that the best player should win but to be concerned with the growth of foreigner esports, if we consider that korean will always be better than foreigner because they are playing much more, then we will never see anything else than korean win any tournies. and is that good for said growth of esports?
Foreign esports should grow because its players show more professionalism and commitment to the game, not because we shield them from better players who work harder.
edit: On top of that, a higher level of competition will attract more fans, which is overall good for the game. Korean participation was one of the reasons MLG Columbus enjoyed so much success. They delivered great games and significantly boosted the prestige and level of competition of the tourney.
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.-
What's the point of having the internet if we seclude ourselves to our world and restrict others from coming in?
Honestly, viewers should and would probably want to see the best that or the pure idea of a healthy competition is to have it open to all those that are eligible, as far as I know, there should and are no forms of restrictions keeping Koreans from playing, purely the stigma or the disinterest of seeing them win all the time (given how much they practice, it's to be expected).
I think the opposing arguments are weak and a bit flimsy. They're based around the sense of entitlement or disinterest in playing to compete than to win.
On June 26 2011 16:12 Shiv. wrote: Glad the poll turned out the way it did. I don't know if that is common knowledge, but what I've been taught, not letting people participate in tournaments because of their origin is considered as racism.
And really: why would we as supposedly rational human beings deny the Koreans the chance to apply what they learned in endless hours of practice? I mean, it's not like they were good because it lies within their DNA (I suppose), but because they know how to make a business out of a game and how to practice to their limits. After all, they deserve to showcase that skill and earn the corresponding price money.
how can one person be so ignorant. Its not a racial issue at all. I'm fine with seleCT participating in foreign tournaments and playing in LANs and everything. But the point is he is helping the foreign scene because he lives outside of Korea and harnesses support from foreign sponsors. Furthermore, he gathers attention from foreign fans and thus foreign corporations looking for a new outlet to advertise.
If Koreans, as Catz said, choose to move outside of Korea then by all means let them participate let them flock to foreign events because they would gather foreigns fans.
Its not a matter of racial barriers but of geographic economics. Korean players living korea will never have the same foreigner fan base and thus never harness suppourt for foreign esports.
Also Koreans have small eyes and cannot there screen.
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.-
also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer...
On June 26 2011 16:12 Shiv. wrote: Glad the poll turned out the way it did. I don't know if that is common knowledge, but what I've been taught, not letting people participate in tournaments because of their origin is considered as racism.
And really: why would we as supposedly rational human beings deny the Koreans the chance to apply what they learned in endless hours of practice? I mean, it's not like they were good because it lies within their DNA (I suppose), but because they know how to make a business out of a game and how to practice to their limits. After all, they deserve to showcase that skill and earn the corresponding price money.
how can one person be so ignorant. Its not a racial issue at all. I'm fine with seleCT participating in foreign tournaments and playing in LANs and everything. But the point is he is helping the foreign scene because he lives outside of Korea and harnesses support from foreign sponsors. Furthermore, he gathers attention from foreign fans and thus foreign corporations looking for a new outlet to advertise.
If Koreans, as Catz said, choose to move outside of Korea then by all means let them participate let them flock to foreign events because they would gather foreigns fans.
Its not a matter of racial barriers but of geographic economics. Korean players living korea will never have the same foreigner fan base and thus never harness suppourt for foreign esports.
Also Koreans have small eyes and cannot there screen.
None of what you said made sense.
Korean players have gained many foreign fans without living in foreign countries. Just look at the MMA cheer at MLG . . . . top Korean progamers are highly recognizable in foreign events.
If the Koreans don't come and destroy everyone, what makes anyone think that Western SC2 players will improve? They won't have any incentive if they can stay mediocre AND win easy prize money in tournaments without Koreans.
The economic argument behind this plays out differently from sponsor/organizer and player point of voiew. The the sponsors/organizers don't really care who's participating, as long as their tournament is getting a metric ton of views. Korean appearances at these touraments are garnering a huge amount of attention, so if anything, the sponsors and organizers WANT more Koreans to show up.
From the player perspective, they want to keep prize money circulation within geographic regions. While I do believe that to be sound logic, I don't agree with it from a competitive perspective. If you say you're a progamer, subsisting off of competing, then it doesn't matter who or how hard your competition is. If you're asking for a protective barrier to competition because these other progamers are dominating the top placements, you really don't deserve to be called a progamer. It's a bold statement to make for someone who does not live by progaming, but there's serious validity to it.
On June 26 2011 16:12 Shiv. wrote: Glad the poll turned out the way it did. I don't know if that is common knowledge, but what I've been taught, not letting people participate in tournaments because of their origin is considered as racism.
And really: why would we as supposedly rational human beings deny the Koreans the chance to apply what they learned in endless hours of practice? I mean, it's not like they were good because it lies within their DNA (I suppose), but because they know how to make a business out of a game and how to practice to their limits. After all, they deserve to showcase that skill and earn the corresponding price money.
Racism is too harsh. It would be xenophobic and insular, but not racist.
There are plenty of European countries which are almost impossible to immigrate to, for instance. That isn't racism, necessarily. That's a country not wanting to share their wealth.
I want to see the best players compete, if that means 95% koreans, i am okay with that.
There is no genetic-advantage that makes koreans better. Its their training-environment and dedication. If NA/EU Player cant match that...well then thats too bad, i guess they should reconsider the reasons they turned pro.
"Sweden has so many good online players too let's ban them as well!"
No matter what people might call it, banning people from certain countries isn't a good thing. And honestly I don't see the point in hating on players who are "too good", who "discourage other players". It's called the Starcraft II PROFESSIONAL COMPETITIVE scene for a reason. Suck it up and practice more.
If they wake up at 5 or 6AM to play in western tournaments, dealing with lag during each one of their games against western players and train hard enough to still dominate the tournament as they do, then they deserve it.
This surely is the hard way for western esport to grow, compared to shielding them from stronger players (like the taiwanese scene does it), but I am sure that the western scene will grow despite it nonetheless.
edit: Besides, if we shield our scene from stronger players, it might grow but I believe it'll always stay behind strong countries like Korea.
Probably a bit of a late post but here it goes. The international scene is based around people living all over the world, while the Korean scene is based around the players living in the same town. This is why it is harder for foreigners to penetrate the Korean scene. It has been suggested that Code A should be an online tournament, or that it should be better paid, both of these would help a lot by making it worthwhile to take a shot at it.
Catz has an tit for tat take on things here, because "we" let Koreans come and play our tournaments freely, while "they" are placing a hurdle in front of us if we want to play in Korea. Bottomline, it is obvious that GSL is better run than any other tournament, the Korean all-pros-live-in-Seoul model is far better than the dispersed model in the international community, and the only thing that prevents a GSL from emerging in any other town in the world is the fact that Starcraft is in fact not that popular in any other country.
i don't get the people saying the foreigners will somehow just "get better" if the Koreans come in and dominate them. If every online tournament starts to be flooded with Koreans, it will only crush foreigners future chances, I think.
In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail.
In the biggest online tournaments with the huge prize pools, I do think anyone should be able to compete because of the reason people have been saying, better games and better players winning. However, there needs to be some other, more prominent online tournaments just for NA players or EU players. Whether these are regional qualifiers for bigger tournaments or just stand alone tournaments, the up and coming foreigners need a platform to prove themselves in front of a bigger audience.
On June 26 2011 17:19 Clank wrote: i don't get the people saying the foreigners will somehow just "get better" if the Koreans come in and dominate them. If every online tournament starts to be flooded with Koreans, it will only crush foreigners future chances, I think.
In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail.
You're correct that foreigners won't suddenly get better just by competiting with koreans in tournaments, I don't think anyone is really arguing that. The more common hope seems to be that when Koreans swoop in and dominate, it'll motivate foreigners to take things more seriously in regards to their training. Seems like this is already starting to appear to some degree with FXO/EG/Reign etc with pro houses forming/going to korea.
The best way to create a community with talent that can challenge Koreans, is to have Koreans show up everywhere. Playing them will raise everyone's level and the foreign scene will catch up much faster.
Yes, we may get out butt whooped for a while, but that's all part of getting better. The more irritated we get that the Koreans are winning everything, the quicker we'll implement the strict training regimens and dedication the Koreans have now.
If it gets to the point that we have NA and EU tournaments like NASL, and all the players are Korean, then adjustment will have to be made, we want to grow the Foreign scene, not kill it. But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.-
also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer...
The alternative explanation, of course, is that you think Koreans are magically endowed with cash. But that's just silly. And you aren't a silly person
i think its bad tbh, whats the point of being progamer now realy? not only that all main tournaments are inviting koreans to their tournaments (mlg,dreamhack) so they completely own everyone(dont mention huk to me, he is in korea he is in different situation), now they are even playing in our weekly tourmanets? whats the point for teams to get players now and send them to tournaments when you know that top quality koreans will be invited and most likely will take top3, unless they eliminate each other? i realy dont like this
On June 26 2011 17:37 whiteLotus wrote: i think its bad tbh, whats the point of being progamer now realy? not only that all main tournaments are inviting koreans to their tournaments (mlg,dreamhack) so they completely own everyone(dont mention huk to me, he is in korea he is in different situation), now they are even playing in our weekly tourmanets? whats the point for teams to get players now and send them to tournaments when you know that top quality koreans will be invited and most likely will take top3, unless they eliminate each other? i realy dont like this
Whats the point of doing anything if chances are that someone better can come?
Sorry , I just don't get why this is bad, viewers get better games and if foreigners can't compete it is their own fault. Its not like Koreans have a genetic advantage they just work harder, hell Huk showed us that.
And the time argument is a moot point nowadays because a lot of foreign Pros are now fulltime pro SC2 players. If they can't compete by then they should really see what they are lacking
On June 26 2011 17:33 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: i think their should be both: open tourneys and some regionally limited tourneys just like in normal sports.
there is IPL for regional in NA, and EPS for germany.
People going like "practice more" dont really see that koreans just have a big advantage from already having the structures to be succesful in an esport like SC2 from BW. And that is everything from the idea of teamhouses over practice schedules to the recognition of progamer being a valid career choice.
There are great efforts to develop foreign esports, but koreans are just leading by a few years. There are a lot of foreigners who play fulltime, but practice on their own or online with some teammates or practice partners is just way less efficient than in a korean prohouse. So atm its a like professionals playing against amateurs imo.
And i personally love to see koreans play, but im not really interested in watching A and B class koreans owning up foreigners in foreign tournaments, because theyre not good enough to really succeed in GSL.
What's the point?? The point is that this will force foreigners and their professional teams to start adapting by being more organized with gaming houses and better coaching, just like the Korean teams, then they'll start performing at their potential. Basically foreigner teams need to get better and be more organized and professional as well and start learning from how the professional sport industry are like. This isn't just about grinding ladder and finding practice partner online and just play without any sort of dedicated planning or training. This will also make esport more legitimate in terms of being a actual sustainable job in the long term.
I can't really side with the people thinking that someone who doesn't practice, doesn't deserve to be robbed of prize money by the hard working koreans :p
On June 26 2011 17:19 Clank wrote: i don't get the people saying the foreigners will somehow just "get better" if the Koreans come in and dominate them. If every online tournament starts to be flooded with Koreans, it will only crush foreigners future chances, I think.
In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail.
In the biggest online tournaments with the huge prize pools, I do think anyone should be able to compete because of the reason people have been saying, better games and better players winning. However, there needs to be some other, more prominent online tournaments just for NA players or EU players. Whether these are regional qualifiers for bigger tournaments or just stand alone tournaments, the up and coming foreigners need a platform to prove themselves in front of a bigger audience.
I will crush most foreigner's future chances. But some people will be able to stay afloat and they will be the basis of a competitive scene that can stand toe to toe with all in the world.
On June 26 2011 17:51 bubblegumbo wrote: What's the point?? The point is that this will force foreigners and their professional teams to start adapting by being more organized with gaming houses and better coaching, just like the Korean teams, then they'll start performing at their potential. Basically foreigner teams need to get better and be more organized and professional as well and start learning from how the professional sport industry are like. This isn't just about grinding ladder and finding practice partner online and just play without any sort of dedicated planning or training. This will also make esport more legitimate in terms of being a actual sustainable job in the long term.
yeah right cuz foreigner teams are full of money and can just build gaming houses left and right? not going to happen.
On June 26 2011 16:12 Shiv. wrote: Glad the poll turned out the way it did. I don't know if that is common knowledge, but what I've been taught, not letting people participate in tournaments because of their origin is considered as racism.
And really: why would we as supposedly rational human beings deny the Koreans the chance to apply what they learned in endless hours of practice? I mean, it's not like they were good because it lies within their DNA (I suppose), but because they know how to make a business out of a game and how to practice to their limits. After all, they deserve to showcase that skill and earn the corresponding price money.
how can one person be so ignorant. Its not a racial issue at all. I'm fine with seleCT participating in foreign tournaments and playing in LANs and everything. But the point is he is helping the foreign scene because he lives outside of Korea and harnesses support from foreign sponsors. Furthermore, he gathers attention from foreign fans and thus foreign corporations looking for a new outlet to advertise.
If Koreans, as Catz said, choose to move outside of Korea then by all means let them participate let them flock to foreign events because they would gather foreigns fans.
Its not a matter of racial barriers but of geographic economics. Korean players living korea will never have the same foreigner fan base and thus never harness suppourt for foreign esports.
Also Koreans have small eyes and cannot there screen.
How would they not attract foreign fans living the way it is - living in Korea, participating in the NASL? Furthermore, I want to see eSports growing as much as you do - but at what costs? Not letting the arguably best nation of the game participate does not make much sense to me. A HUGE IMPORTANT SC II tournament without Koreans is just not legit in my opinion. That is because they bring the best competition to the table. I want to see the best of the best, and if foreigners are not able to catch up, why punish the ones working hard for their success?
Is it my logic that is flawed or yours? I seriously do not see how restricting Korean slots helps eSports at all.
On June 26 2011 07:12 Wesso wrote: The only thing I'm afraid of is that foreigners will refuse to practice as much as the koreans (which IMO is totally understandable) so the SC2 scene will stop growing because nobody can beat the koreans. I don't mind them coming, but I hope the foreigners react to it by training harder.
With that mind set they are never gonna catch up to the Koreans anyway. Hopefully they will react like Incontrol etc. and see it as a challenge and train harder.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
I hope you realize that the foreign players on sponsored teams like FnaticMSI, EG, FXO, etc... actually do get a salary and are able to play SC2 all day. They don't have to deal with this "real life" and play SC2 in only their free time like you're saying.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
I hope you realize that the foreign players on sponsored teams like FnaticMSI, EG, FXO, etc... actually do get a salary and are able to play SC2 all day. They don't have to deal with this "real life" and play SC2 in only their free time like you're saying.
How long will the sponsors keep paying money if they arent winning anything? Already they're starting to sign the Korean players, and it won't be long before they ONLY sign Korean players...
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
I hope you realize that the foreign players on sponsored teams like FnaticMSI, EG, FXO, etc... actually do get a salary and are able to play SC2 all day. They don't have to deal with this "real life" and play SC2 in only their free time like you're saying.
How long will the sponsors keep paying money if they arent winning anything?
Thats what i was talking about. Whats the point of keeping foreign players in your team if they cant wint anything, and just keep sending them to tournaments for nothing? Those teams can just get korean players, who will atleast have a chance, im sure koreans will happily join foreign team and travel arround the world to play in tournaments.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think large tournaments segregating their competition and limiting their potential audience is the solution.
There needs to be more regional, mid-level tournaments like IPL, or a NA equivalent to Dreamhack or HomeStory Cup, to help bridge the gap as NA players try to catch up in skill level.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school.
And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school.
And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story.
Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG?
I might as well give up too, because I'll never be Nestea or MC.. right? No one asked to get rich off this game. The tournaments now are already top heavy as fuck. Making an equivalent of $10 an hour would satisfy me, because I would be able to sustain myself from starving to death and pay my internet and heat bill while I did what I had passion for... no one is asking to get rich off the game.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school.
And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story.
Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG?
You seriously have some of the worst arguments I've ever heard and I literally have no clue what you are talking about.
If foreign players can't beat Koreans then the Koreans deserve to take our jobs. It's as simple as that. Only the best will survive in this job, and it just shows that some people are racist and think because they're yellow they're better. If foreigner took the Korean training regiment then I think we can produce some bonjwa's easily, until then we will be at the bottom relying on HuK to win more :\
I think A-Class professional foreigners like HuK, IdrA, Jinro, White-Ra, Morrow, Dimaga ....will survive in the scene and continue to improve. B-Class professional foreigners will disappear from the scene and will give up playing, if they can't even show up the smallest amount of success. Any foreign/korean player who does not devote his life to SC2 with the right amount of talent and skill will in the long term disappear from the scene. Thats true for everyone.
Viewers will profit from this. I am tired of watching so many bad skilled foreigners on tournaments and ladder streams. Maybe foreigners start to take the game more serious and devote more time from their life becoming better players.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school.
And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story.
Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG?
You seriously have some of the worst arguments I've ever heard and I literally have no clue what you are talking about.
I think he's trying to say that if there is no infrastructure in place for North Americans to develop, the NA player pool will continue to shrink and plateau at the semi-pro/amateur level, similar to the days of Broodwar. The Koreans will simply dominate the tournament scene and the foreigner scene will begin to contract.
It's a pretty pessimistic perspective, but entirely possible.
when i watch a tournament, i want real competion, and when i watch a tournament held in europe or america, i want to see europeans and americans involved in said competion.
at the moment i do not feel the need to complain, because i think we have some great european/american players that GSLchampions like mc may beat in the end, but it is not steamrolling from my point of view.
should "our" players however end up as cannonfodder in "our" tournaments, so to say that "our" scene really got left behind in the dust by the korean scene, i would certainly lose interest in european/american tournaments i only watch the GSL, and while i am not more than a single viewer, i could imagine that the overall popularity of sc2 as an Esport decreases in europe/america (followed by a lack of sponsors and the shutdown of events and leagues), then, and only then a separation of the scenes would be plausible in order to keep things interesting (like only invite some codeA players, instead of opening the gates for an unstoppable force of CodeS veterans)
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.-
also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer...
The alternative explanation, of course, is that you think Koreans are magically endowed with cash. But that's just silly. And you aren't a silly person
so "Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner" either imply that i think they should be restricted or that korean are magically endowed with cash?
i can undestand you have a hard time with my poor english. but you'd better not talk about logic if not.
On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
This is a huge rant that has tons of holes/flat assertions. I'll spend more time detailing the problems later, but I'll do you a service and write out your points in a clear and straightforward way:
A: Koreans will auto-win over foreigners. B: point A is because foreigners do not have the financial backing to sustain as committed a sc2 lifestyle as koreans C: foreigners don't need interaction with Koreans to grow in skill level/be as competitive as them
First on A: This is easily settled by a very recent event that you may have heard of: Dreamhack. But of course, two statements will come from you: A] that Huk is essentially "Korean" and B] Koreans still took the rest of the podium. Now, I will agree that Koreans are better because of sheer work ethic. However, the identication of "Korean" based on work ethic is a tautological fallacy. If you define foreigners as those who "work less," obviously foreigners will always be inferior to Koreans on balance. I also made a longer post on this labeling in a previous thread:
On June 08 2011 16:42 tianGO wrote: Select is korean. I voted Thorzain.
You're a moron. Select is a foreigner. You don't call him a Korean because of his skin color, you call him one if he trains in Korea. Huk is more korean than select sorry.
I am a moron because I call "a korean" someone who was born in Korea?
OK.
Yes. Idk why it's so hard for people to understand that the training regime is what makes you "korean". So basically you're saying koreans are just better by blood? I disagree. Select, while a korean by blood, has been playing sc2 in the US since release, and is thus considered a foreigner in skill. Funny how people always bring up the argument that "the training is what makes koreans better" then decide to call select, a player who has never trained in korea, korean. Tell me why we only listed the "koreans" at mlg as july,mma,losira,moon, and mc then? Because these guys are the real "koreans". They train and live in a korean house. Select does not.
So Huk, Jinro, Moonglade and Idra are Korean, while Select is American. This is just in people, your not a Korean unless you train like a Korean, sucks for you ordinary people that live in Korea and dont play SC because u, by the standards of this genius i quoted, have no country. I mean ive seen trolls and douchebags in my life but you sir just took the game to the next level.
You're taking it to literal. I agree that SeleCT is Korean, but his a foreigner to the Korean scene. He worded it pretty much spot on as saying anyone who is in on the Korean scene is a Korean. HuK, Jinro and mOOn are all Koreans per say, because they live and practice in Korea. IdrA only practices 2-3 hours a day and his not on the Korean Scene any more, so he is hardly Korean. And before you call someone a troll and a douchebag and then you, yourself act like a troll and a douchebag you might want to look in the mirror and evaluate yourself and where you want to be in life.
The claim that "anyone in the Korean scene = Korean" defeats the point of a Korea vs. foreigner categorization in the first place if players can easily shift from one to the other just by moving to a different country.
The "lifestyle/training regimen" distinction doesn't make any sense either - foreigners are starting sc2 houses outside of Korea (Sweden, US [Arizona]). Are they therefore Koreans? Now inevitably someone will respond saying "but foreigner houses only play 6-8 hours a day, Koreans do 10+!" but there's no clear brightline as to when a specific number of hours define them as Korean, as it's absurdly arbitrary to draw the line at any point and therefore claim that "9 hours a day makes you a Korean but 8.5 does not!"
Nor does the immersion in the "Korean scene" make any sense. Moon, for instance, frequently competes in foreigner tournaments, even having membership in a foreigner league (NASL). Is he therefore not a Korean? What about foreigners who have Korean SC2 accounts and play on those severs a bunch? Here, too, the line is almost impossible to draw.
Let's be real, guys. The "korean-foreigner" distinction is one borne of nationality. As much as we know how logically silly it is to base things off arbitrary borderlines and accidents of birth,we still root for teams and countries in the olympics, the world cup, and countless other sports and areas. Likewise, in starcraft 2 we root along nationalistic ideologies - cause it's just darn fun.
There are countless other examples: ThorZain's win against MC [they were both in Europe] in TSL3, Jinro in Korea, foreigner wins in the NASL group stages. I will agree that on balance Koreans display better results, but remember that Koreans do often send their higher tier players to foreigner tournaments. For instance, while comparably lesser known Korean players succeeded in the NASL open, there was likewise a lack of big foreigner names with those such as Dimaga dropping for the tournament while at HSC3. What this does prove, however, is that A: the initial skill gap isn't that large, and B: foreigners can reach that same level with the same work ethic (eg Huk).
This leads into your point B: foreigners don't have the money to sustain that. This is blatantly false. This is not BW where the TSL was actually one of the very few notable foreigner tournaments. Tons of prize money and tournaments abound for foreigners, from perennial showmatches to $100 cups to the MLG, IPL, NASL, Black Dragon League, Dreamhack, and IEM tournaments. There is also a ton more sponsors for SC2, at least in monetary amount, as the prize money of tens of thousands for things like Dreamhack, TSL3, NASL, and countless more prove. Direct sponsorship is also huge: look at Whitera aka DuckloadRa who also received sponsorship from TTesports. Or look at FXOpen, who hasn't yet achieved a presence as any dominant foreigner team, yet has received the sponsorship to go to Korea and host countless big tournaments. Look at the creation of foreigner prohouses. Hell, Team Liquid proves that there are opportunities for foreign players to play like a Korean. There is definitely much more opportunity for foreigners to create that same work ethic.
Now your last point, C: that foreigners don't need to compete with Koreans to be as competitive with them. First, your Bobsledding analogy is ridiculously terrible. Bobsledding is an individualistic competition, it's entirely based on your individual performance, so obviously there is no benefit from interaction with others. SC2, however, is heavily reliant on practice and experience against other players. You also claim that foreigners remain challenged in their own scene, but this isn't true. IdrA, for instance, was known for practicing a ton while in the Korean scene, but has lessened his practice by ridiculous amounts when moving back to the US because he feels that things like only 3 hours of practice a day are enough to deal with foreign competition. And of course, look at guys like Huk and Jinro.
Yes, we do cheer for our own home teams and favorite players, but we also want to see them win against the best of the best. People aren't going to SOLELY watch the best of the best, but it's far better to see the best of the best. I, for one, do not watch random cups and small tournaments, nor do I watch even my most favorite players' vods against random ladder kids. I watch their games in high-stakes tournaments against tough competition, because it's that very nature of competition and quality thereof that adds excitement.
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school.
And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story.
Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG?
You seriously have some of the worst arguments I've ever heard and I literally have no clue what you are talking about.
I think he's trying to say that if there is no infrastructure in place for North Americans to develop, the NA player pool will continue to shrink and plateau at the semi-pro/amateur level, similar to the days of Broodwar. The Koreans will simply dominate the tournament scene and the foreigner scene will begin to contract.
It's a pretty pessimistic perspective, but entirely possible.
Its a retarded perspective. There are also foreigner pros who are being sent over there to train. Do you want the scene to end up revolving around "Naniwa and Thorzain stayed in Korea for a year, now they came back and they have won every tournament because they have super amazing Korean skills"? IdrA tried it out and wasn't exactly successful but he was never well integrated into the system beyond massing ladder games and he left in a time when Starcraft 2 was less figured out. Huk is already doing it. How would it 'promote esports' to watch Huk, Naniwa, Thorzain, and possibly IdrA take every single tournament? Is it better because they are white or something?
Without Koreans and Korean trained players lately we would have been something like IdrA or Naniwa winning Dreamhack. Homestory Cup would've been won by Naniwa if he doesn't win already. MLG would have been IdrA or Naniwa, maybe Thorzain. NASL would probably go to IdrA or Naniwa with Thorzain probably coming from the open bracket to get in as well. Wow that sounds so much more exciting than watching MC, July, Losira, etc. participate doesn't it! I especially liked the part where I can relate because we all speak English.
If foreigners don't want to practice as much as koreans, then koreans deserve to win ... everything.
They are even playing with slight handicaps on the eu / na servers, so what's the problem?
The best players should participate and win. If that means that the serious foreigners have to move to korea ... it seems that gomtv is open for that solution. It seems that was a possibility for huk, jinro ... certainly others as well?
It's just basically like this: do you want to sacrifice pretty much all your time, to improve in e-sports? It's a full time job, or even a bit more than a full time job? Most foreigners would say ... no. A lot more koreans would say ... hell yeah.
Do those that say yes deserve to win? Imho, yes.
Idra even said that he went from practicing korean style, to practicing 3 hours or so a day when he left korea. That's basically giving himself one third of the practice time as koreans. He was actually among the very best (imho, second best zerg in the world when he left korea). Now ... he is, again imho, a bit further down on the ranking. And that is, again my opinion, likely because he practice a lot less compared to those he compete against.
Look at Huk ... he has become so much better since he went to korea ...
I think that in the future, yes, for e-sports to grow outside korea, it needs to mean professional gamers - not just players doing it on their free time, and getting a nice income on the side from it.
So far its been easy money for them and some of the prize pools are pretty big. The way i see it everyone else picks up their game, or they lose. I think its a good thing for the viewers, for the players it sucks, seems like it was hard enough to make a living off pro-gaming, hopefuly all the progaming houses survive and people dont have to go to Korea to get that sort of environment.
i love it, not only we can see top koreans vs top foreigns casted by top casters, we also have the possibility to see so many replays of the koreans over all it closes the gap between koreans and foreigns
until now it are only most 2nd class korans playing good foreigns so i not see ANY problem there.
cause i think the koreans are really strong but still i cant see players like hwasing beating Huk or Naniwa so if the top foreign plays in this tournaments too, i think they will win too
It amazes me that there are so many doomsday views here.
MMA sums up the mentality people needs to win when he "hopes that Idra learns to be positive". The foreign scene definitely needs to keep staying positive in order to compete with the Koreans. If all we look at is that "We can never compete with their infrastructure", there will never be progress.
If this mentality doesn't change, Koreans will keep winning even if they destroy their own CCs.
I think it would be completely racist of me to say theres anything wrong with koreans playing in our tourneys, or even worse, deny them the right to participate. I can understand why people would want recognizable foreigners winning their online tourneys as opposed to lesser known koreans, but really, the solution to that isn't to "outlaw" koreans from our tourneys, it's to get better lol.
If we didn't allow koreans in our tourneys, not only would that come off as racist and put more distance between Korea and the rest of the world, but we'd be living in a bubble where WE were the "best" at SC2 - except if the koreans were allowed, they'd kick our ass. I dunno about you guys, but i'd rather our players keep getting better by facing koreans than see generally bad play in every foreigner tournament compared to the GSL/Korean weekly.
it all comes down to the money, once sc2 tourneys generate enough income, it will be possible for non-koreans to play sc2 full time. i think koreans show up here, because sc2 is not popular enough in korea, so there are too few tourneys with money on the line ..
Well I know there are tournaments in Norway that requires you to live in norway to participate. Otherwise, we'd never ever have a norwegian win pretty much anything I'd think ...
It's up to the tournament organizers, but I for one would like to see the best players participate.
Also I'd like to add that most Koreans don't have it easy either, most of them make huge sacrifices for a chance to be able to play SC professionally. They have to prove themselves to the world to show that they are serious and committed to the game, if anything because there are not that many tourneys in Korea they take an even greater risk.
Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice.
Is that the Puma that beat Nal_ra at the end of his TV-show?
Edit : OnT I actually dont want the koreans participating in the foreigner online tourneys. I want to be able to recognise every top 16 player of a tournament and know a little about them, not random korean practice partners that roll over every european with überprecised timing attacks.
So, for example, you'd prefer watching a couple of your overweight neighbours running a race than watching some top athletes, just because you know them?
On June 26 2011 19:25 frantic.cactus wrote: The best foreigners will rise up to the challenge and compete on an even keel with the Koreans.
I really hope so. In sc1, you could say the foreigners started kinda late except for a few, there weren't any tourneys, pro houses and generally there weren't any money in foreigner sc1. But with this exploding fame of sc2, none of these are an issue.
Is that the Puma that beat Nal_ra at the end of his TV-show?
Edit : OnT I actually dont want the koreans participating in the foreigner online tourneys. I want to be able to recognise every top 16 player of a tournament and know a little about them, not random korean practice partners that roll over every european with überprecised timing attacks.
So, for example, you'd prefer watching a couple of your overweight neighbours running a race than watching some top athletes, just because you know them?
Lol apparently. Also, if it wasn't for the Koreans IdrA, Thorzain, Naniwa, and Huk would have pretty much been top 4 in every tournament lately. How exciting to watch those four always duke it out and wonder what it would be like if Koreans came to play them. People should consider themselves lucky that MC is the only one trying to make easy money in most major tournaments, these things would be a lot more one-sided if Nestea, Bomber, MVP, and MKP showed up.
On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
If you are so determine to succeed, train hard and get a decent skill level. Learn Korean language, show your dedication and get pick up by a Korean team. Train hard and treat SC2 like a job.
Stop using stupid excuses like "we have to work". The standard of living in Korea is so much freaking higher, and the competition there is so much tougher. What makes you think the Koreans are having an easier time compared to Europeans and the Americans? Almost all the PRO teams in the west and being sponsored, they are just not pulling the results to justify it.
Do you want government intervention to stop the "foreigners" from stealing your job or force companies to sponsor local E-Sports? If the west starts training like the Koreans, do you think they will have problems finding sponsors? WAKE up your idea of finding the easy way out. Shame.
I think this is an interesting topic for a variety of reasons already outlined. I'll focus on a couple points in this post.
From what I read, it boils down to if we Should support Korea being the mecca of Starcraft 2 or move towards a few different hubs internationally?
Your position on this issue will decide the stance you take concerning protectionism and the subsequent fostering of a gaming culture that might follow.
An example might help persuade some of you of the benefits of protectionism for an industry, for often free trade dogma is accepted unchallenged, but we should look a bit deeper to fully understand what it means to be globalized. Specifically we can use Korea's automotive industry as the example. In the 1960s, the Korean Government wanting to facilitate wealth creation and manufacturing in the country; they saught to move Korea from just assembling Japanese automobiles to actually making their own. They decided they would foster growth of the automobile industry by implementing tariffs on foreign competition and subsidies for domestic industry. Through a few decades, a booming auto industry was developed that now places Korea as one of the top 10 manufacturers in the world. 50 Years ago, who would of thought that was possibly? The new benefits for cars in general, specific to this industry in Korea, include fuel cell innovations and new gas-electric hybrid systems.
As a side note, this new middle class that was created through Korea's development during this same time, was ready to define some new cultural traditions like gaming...
While free trade and open boarder policies may work very well in promoting efficiency of any given market, such as the automobile market or in this case, the competition of Starcraft 2, it may also undermine the sovereignty of any region and lend itself to a hierarchy, that in the long term, actually would reduce the amount of unique viable competition. In that sense, something is lost (or perhaps, never gained) in the reduction, or prevention, of diversity and you could posit that there would be a loss of potential innovation and even efficiency gains from not growing a more thoroughly competitive domestic market. Perhaps you could consider the World Cup of soccer as an example of how different regions develop their own play styles that compete within the same of the game and create dynamic match ups within those parameters. While the World Cup is played between the best of the best, there are many smaller leagues throughout the world for domestic competition to take place and for some, to support themselves from this.
Then again, as energy and food prices continue to inflate, the cost of living pressures may point us towards a single country where a gaming culture is viable since it will be prohibitively expensive to promote of a class of people who exist to pursue that which is not necessary for the sustenance of daily life (this is a broader critique of many careers, but especially an e-sport as it has more material and energy requirements beyond many other sports).
Ultimately, I believe the capability of foreigners to earn a living wage from Starcraft will be decided by the fans and community that spring up around the game, and how much passion they develop, and how contagious it is (remember, that in Korea, everyone plays the game). There are many factors at play, but I think with everything considered and so far done, we should give a hat tip to all those doing their utmost to promote the culture that will decide this, from the players, to the fans, to the commentators, to the community organizers, who have all been been brave enough to follow their passions and continue to inspire us. Most recently, the Home Story Cup Tournament promotes a really down to earth culture of gaming that I suspect acts as one of the better archetypes of tournaments we outside of Korea could most easily promote, support, and most importantly, afford.
On June 26 2011 19:24 Mithriel wrote: Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice.
I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money.
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost.
All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO.
There are 6 Europeans in the final 16 of NASL, is that stifling the growth of NA e-sports? How come no one complains about that? How come there are no threads about German and Swedish players swooping in and stealing the monies of poor North American pro-gamers?
On June 26 2011 19:24 Mithriel wrote: Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice.
I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money.
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost.
All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO.
It is actually exactly the same.
If Federer and Nadal would go to that tournament, they have a big chance of winning. However, because they show up, more people will want to watch it, the tournament is able to get more sponsors which should lead to an impulse for the sport. Also by having the best of the best the younger players would learn something, instead of 2avg level players fighting it out which noone really improves from.
If it would just be to local people, noone would bother watching the tournament (except a few locals) and there would be limited growth opportunities.
I guess it comes down to if you want the starcraft 2 scene to be one big global scene or just a fragmented scene.
On June 26 2011 19:24 Mithriel wrote: Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice.
I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money.
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost.
All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO.
It is actually exactly the same.
If Federer and Nadal would go to that tournament, they have a big chance of winning. However, because they show up, more people will want to watch it, the tournament is able to get more sponsors which should lead to an impulse for the sport. Also by having the best of the best the younger players would learn something, instead of 2avg level players fighting it out which noone really improves from.
If it would just be to local people, noone would bother watching the tournament (except a few locals) and there would be limited growth opportunities.
I guess it comes down to if you want the starcraft 2 scene to be one big global scene or just a fragmented scene.
I think you're misunderstanding it. Every sport needs tournaments to be held at multiple levels to allow new talent to grow at grassroots. For example even in athletics, you have national level, state level and county level meets which are open only for people of the same country/region/county. Also you have games that are classified by age group level (junior/senior etc.). There is a reason that such a system exists. This system allows people to identify the raw talent at lower levels and then pick up such talents and train them and allow them to grow to a national/international level. Bringing in big names into such tournaments will only make it hard to identify the upcoming talent, and perhaps even make some of those upcomers hesitate from even entering the tournament.
Edit: Also there are two distinct viewpoints here, one is the spectator viewpoint and the other is player viewpoint.
From a spectator viewpoint, I'd say hell yeah, bring in only the top level players, only the fittest will survive.
But from a player viewpoint I'd say that its essential to have tournaments of both kinds - the top level tournaments like MLG, Dreamhack, GSL, IEM and the likes which are open to everyone. At the same time its good to have 500$ tournaments which are open only to people of the same region. (perhaps US only tournaments and EU only tournaments).
On June 26 2011 19:54 sitromit wrote: There are 6 Europeans in the final 16 of NASL, is that stifling the growth of NA e-sports? How come no one complains about that? How come there are no threads about German and Swedish players swooping in and stealing the monies of poor North American pro-gamers?
Hit the nail on the head.
The whole 'foreigner' vs 'korea' thing has strong white vs. non-white undertones, subtly and maybe sub-consciously masked to look more justifiable on the surface. I don't see the proponents of keeping Koreans out of tournaments as anything more than closet racists.
Good to know that 89% or more people are good people.
On June 26 2011 19:54 sitromit wrote: There are 6 Europeans in the final 16 of NASL, is that stifling the growth of NA e-sports? How come no one complains about that? How come there are no threads about German and Swedish players swooping in and stealing the monies of poor North American pro-gamers?
Hit the nail on the head.
The whole 'foreigner' vs 'korea' thing has strong white vs. non-white undertones, subtly and maybe sub-consciously masked to look more justifiable on the surface. I don't see the proponents of keeping Koreans out of tournaments as anything more than closet racists.
Good to know that 89% or more people are good people.
On June 26 2011 19:24 Mithriel wrote: Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice.
I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money.
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost.
All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO.
It is actually exactly the same.
If Federer and Nadal would go to that tournament, they have a big chance of winning. However, because they show up, more people will want to watch it, the tournament is able to get more sponsors which should lead to an impulse for the sport. Also by having the best of the best the younger players would learn something, instead of 2avg level players fighting it out which noone really improves from.
If it would just be to local people, noone would bother watching the tournament (except a few locals) and there would be limited growth opportunities.
I guess it comes down to if you want the starcraft 2 scene to be one big global scene or just a fragmented scene.
I think you're misunderstanding it. Every sport needs tournaments to be held at multiple levels to allow new talent to grow at grassroots. For example even in athletics, you have national level, state level and county level meets which are open only for people of the same country/region/county. Also you have games that are classified by age group level (junior/senior etc.). There is a reason that such a system exists. This system allows people to identify the raw talent at lower levels and then pick up such talents and train them and allow them to grow to a national/international level. Bringing in big names into such tournaments will only make it hard to identify the upcoming talent, and perhaps even make some of those upcomers hesitate from even entering the tournament.
I agree that we need tournaments on multiple levels, however i thought we quite a bit of those. There's quite a lot of weekly cups and smaller tournament. I mean the SC2 Tournament section is exploding. There is plenty of room for up and coming players to make a splash (or at least so i think).
So in this comparison the smaller tournaments and LANs are the regional tournaments and the big ones (MLG, Dreamhack, GSL) are like the grand slams.
I think it depends on the events.. imagine that you want a event to have the best of each place i think that they should make like US/Canada South America Europe etc qualifier only for people of those countries and then at the main event the best of each region battle against each other..
cause imagine that at the final events only koreans appear that wont be as exciting.. look at it as a Soccer world cup if all countries tryied to qualify together north american team or asian would never be at the cup lol
i think that to make it fair each region should have their own qualifier and people shouldnt qualify in other ppls region if you are that good then qualify in your region
i like that they go to tournaments i just dont like to see like US qualifiers with only europeans and koreans in final stages.. think everyone should qualify in their region
i really thinking that koreans europeans dominating US tournaments wont help starcraft grow but ok
i mean stuff like mlg is awesome now imagine that mlg only had online qualifers.. then at event there would be like 0 americans lol why would americans want to watch it ?
i mean i wouldnt mind watching a portuguese guy getting rotflstomped in a cup i dont care but i would watch it cause people like to see people that they cant identify with..
i think that if there are regional qualifiers then make them regional.. like those zenex guys if there was a korean regional they would go nowhere.. and you guys are saying they are the best ?...
what would you guys prefer watching a 20 koreans final or a finals with the best of each region battling it out ?
i mean why did people loved the team war of World vs Koreans ? just saying...
Big tournaments like NASL / TSL Qualifiers - let them participate.
Small tournaments (weekly zotac, go4sc, ...) I dont want to see them participating. I see those tournaments as a way to foster new & upcoming foreign players, some way to motivate them. It's especially important since most western tournaments are invite only so it's another way to demonstrate talent / skill. A good example would be Stephano who participated in a lot of small tournaments and got invited to the Homestory Cup 3 + Show Spoiler [HSC3] +
and is doing well with wins over White-Ra, Huk, Jinro
I doubt he would've been invited or even motivated to put so much time in SC2 if he would be dominated by Korean B-teamers.
On June 26 2011 20:48 GizmoPT wrote: i really thinking that koreans europeans dominating US tournaments wont help starcraft grow but ok
i mean stuff like mlg is awesome now imagine that mlg only had online qualifers.. then at event there would be like 0 americans lol why would americans want to watch it ?
i mean i wouldnt mind watching a portuguese guy getting rotflstomped in a cup i dont care but i would watch it cause people like to see people that they cant identify with..
i think that if there are regional qualifiers then make them regional.. like those zenex guys if there was a korean regional they would go nowhere.. and you guys are saying they are the best ?...
what would you guys prefer watching a 20 koreans final or a finals with the best of each region battling it out ?
i mean why did people loved the team war of World vs Koreans ? just saying...
on the other hand would it be fun watching games that you know are not top lvl? why do you think premier league and spanish liga are so popular? it's because they are the best leagues, not because ppl in china or wherever can identify with them... The Chinese league isnt popular at all here, cause ppl know the teams suck... Would be the same with sc, if you know all players in foreign cups suck, sure you will have some viewers, but most fans would focus on the top leagues probably... This also forces the western players to try and compete with the koreans which keeps their lvl higher as well I guess...
didnt really read the rest of the topic, but i guess this has all been said before
I want them be able to participate all over, so we can get more games with awesome players and harder competition means greater games and that players have to work harder to provide rest of us with quality series.
I can't imagine it's helpful for the foreign sc2 scene when Koreans roflstomp every tournament all the time. I guess only the very top players would be on a sponsored team then and it would be even harder to get new top players.
It's just so much harder for foreigners to train in a similar environment as the Koreans. The teams here basically can't have a team house cause all the players live in different countries and many study/go to school/work and it's much harder to fully commit to sc2. And we will likely never have a ladder with Korean quality either.
Obviously solutions have to be found to improve the foreign scene but I don't think Koreans taking all the prize money and fame (-> sponsors) is one of them.
Everyone who watches Homestory Cup should also realize how much more interesting it is to see the foreigners interact and commentate games and so on. Sadly there IS a big language barrier (and also a cultural barrier) which will inevitably make Koreans more boring for us outside of the game itself.
On June 26 2011 08:45 unSpeake wrote: Koreans are now going to win every single tournament that isn't a local LAN tourney, and even some of those (homestory) are going to be taken over. Good bye to foreigners winning anything!
People who practice a lot and correctly will always do well (like Naniwa). I don't see why artificially limiting the players to lazy whiners who practice 3 hours a day and have the nerve to still call themselves progamers (like Idra) is beneficial to anyone. It's a competitive game, players like that should be filtered out of the pool for the viewers's pleasure, which is why E-sports exist. I don't agree with especially accomodating Koreans and treating them favorably like it sometimes seems to happen, but large tournaments should be open for everyone who wants to participate.
It's an eventuality that will keep on happening time and time again. Koreans will be our source of sc2 entertainment and all foreign pros will become expert commentators, live with it and allow koreans access.
My intake in this is that it's really easy money for them and generally big big promotion for themselves and their team.
This is exactly why Rain joined MSI instead of a korean team (methinkz). Anyhow it's good for spectators for awesome gaimz but pretty sad for good "foreigners" because they just can't compete on their level yet (yes HuK won Dreamhack beating alot of koreans but we can all say that HuK is a korean-gamer). I bet most koreans that join these tournaments just want some extra money and general good "practice" for GSL Might aswell play tournaments to practice than to spam ladder yeah? :D
I wanna see the best players win ofc...I dont mind koreans etc. But i really dont like online tournaments that accept any player from any region. They usually produce alot of bad games cuz of latency....and its hard for me to watch.... So online tourneys should have a rule where participants should live in the same region IMO to be able to play....
the worst games Ive seen in tourneys are NASL, TSL etc TSL was broadcasted with replays so any form of lag is hard to spot (but you can see it in micro battles etc.. if they did it live....the event would be awful cuz of the latency issues would be more evident in the korean games) NASL though is prerecorded live and almost every korean game was a big lag fest and an utter dissapointment.
and the best games are the "offline" ones, such as MLG, Dreamhack, GSL etc....
On June 26 2011 21:26 provrorsbarn wrote: I wanna see the best players win ofc...I dont mind koreans etc. But i really dont like online tournaments that accept any player from any region. They usually produce alot of bad games cuz of latency....and its hard for me to watch.... So online tourneys should have a rule where participants should live in the same region IMO to be able to play....
the worst games Ive seen in tourneys are NASL, TSL etc TSL was broadcasted with replays so any form of lag is hard to spot (but you can see it in micro battles etc.. if they did it live....the event would be awful cuz of the latency issues would be more evident in the korean games) NASL though is prerecorded live and almost every korean game was a big lag fest and an utter dissapointment.
and the best games are the "offline" ones, such as MLG, Dreamhack, GSL etc....
The NASL Season had a lot of terrible games for sure.
But the Open Tournament qualifier had some awesome games.
I think it's a lot more to do with very little being on the line in the regular season so players aren't as bothered.
On June 26 2011 08:45 unSpeake wrote: Koreans are now going to win every single tournament that isn't a local LAN tourney, and even some of those (homestory) are going to be taken over. Good bye to foreigners winning anything!
People who practice a lot and correctly will always do well (like Naniwa). I don't see why artificially limiting the players to lazy whiners who practice 3 hours a day and have the nerve to still call themselves progamers (like Idra) is beneficial to anyone. It's a competitive game, players like that should be filtered out of the pool for the viewers's pleasure, which is why E-sports exist. I don't agree with especially accomodating Koreans and treating them favorably like it sometimes seems to happen, but large tournaments should be open for everyone who wants to participate.
Naniwa hasn't really proven yet he can compete with the Koreans. There's a big difference between playing in a tournament where there's one Korean and one where you're beating nothing but Koreans.
Honestly does anybody expect tournament organizers to start banning Koreans?
Yeah, I thought so. The growth of E-Sports lies in the large number of tournaments that are going on; look to your right and you'll see one almost every minute. Expecting tournaments to start banning Koreans for being "too good" is absurd. They have so much to gain, from the publicity to the quality of games, by having Koreans compete. There are no advantages to banning Koreans; it just ushers in accusations of racism/xenophobia.
Despite all the arguments thrown around, tournaments aren't going to throw away the advantage of having so many Korean players compete. There's likely to be little to no response to all these pleas of protectionism.
The simple solution (the only solution) is basically: Practice more. Play better. Pick up Korean playstyles or learn how to counter them. Cheer on and encourage your favorite foreigners.
if more korean players join the foreign tournaments it will make it easier for us to study/copy the korean strategys which will only help us improve our play.
I feel like having to play against Koreans will push Foreigners to step up their game and actually get good. That's good for everyone, because then there will be more good Foreigners.
I think part of why Korea utterly dominated Broodwar was because of how little Foreigners played with Koreans.
You have to play against the best to become the best.
On June 26 2011 22:51 Zzoram wrote: I feel like having to play against Koreans will push Foreigners to step up their game and actually get good. That's good for everyone, because then there will be more good Foreigners.
I think part of why Korea utterly dominated Broodwar was because of how little Foreigners played with Koreans.
You have to play against the best to become the best.
i agree. And any players that whine against koreans in foreigners tournaments should stop playing SC2. Simple as that. If you don't want to compete against the best players, why are you still playing?
I think the problem isn't so much that Koreans are playing in other tournaments, but rather that there are few amateur options for new players to come into the scene. If the same players are always the ones winning tournaments, how is a new player supposed to compete with someone who has years of BW experience? Will the pro scene develop into the same people playing each other in every tournament?
It is a big sacrifice to give up social aspects and a job/money in hopes of winning a tournament and making a name to gain sponsorship.. Why sponsor a nobody who has doesn't have tournament titles? How is a nobody supposed to have the finances to play SC like it's a full time job?
Look at basketball in the US for example. New talent is trained in high school, college can be paid for with sponsorships, and the truly great players go on to make millions in the NBA. You don't see high school players competing against NBA players. Of course people want to watch the best, but only supporting the best also means that the sport will become stagnant and eventually die out.
On June 26 2011 20:55 Zocat wrote: Big tournaments like NASL / TSL Qualifiers - let them participate.
Small tournaments (weekly zotac, go4sc, ...) I dont want to see them participating. I see those tournaments as a way to foster new & upcoming foreign players, some way to motivate them. It's especially important since most western tournaments are invite only so it's another way to demonstrate talent / skill. A good example would be Stephano who participated in a lot of small tournaments and got invited to the Homestory Cup 3 + Show Spoiler [HSC3] +
and is doing well with wins over White-Ra, Huk, Jinro
I doubt he would've been invited or even motivated to put so much time in SC2 if he would be dominated by Korean B-teamers.
I seriously hope that the tournament organizers aren't ignorant enough to look over somebody who is amonst the top players of his region just because he traditionally finishes behind Koreans.
On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
Wait, what? You're implying that competitions with restrictions on region are discriminatory?
Personally, I think there needs to be a healthy balance between region specific tournaments which require you to be playing from the region the tournament is being played on, i.e. EU only, NA only, SEA only, KR only etc, and global tournaments which allow anyone to enter provided they have an account available on the hosting region's servers.
This way you can foster a healthy local scene (as we have seen develop in EU), as well as bridge connection's between the different regions.
On June 26 2011 20:48 GizmoPT wrote: i really thinking that koreans europeans dominating US tournaments wont help starcraft grow but ok
i mean stuff like mlg is awesome now imagine that mlg only had online qualifers.. then at event there would be like 0 americans lol why would americans want to watch it ?
i mean i wouldnt mind watching a portuguese guy getting rotflstomped in a cup i dont care but i would watch it cause people like to see people that they cant identify with..
i think that if there are regional qualifiers then make them regional.. like those zenex guys if there was a korean regional they would go nowhere.. and you guys are saying they are the best ?...
what would you guys prefer watching a 20 koreans final or a finals with the best of each region battling it out ?
i mean why did people loved the team war of World vs Koreans ? just saying...
I actually quite enjoy watching GSL, and believe that players like Naniwa, and to a lesser extent IdrA and Thorzain have shown that they can hang with the best of the best of Koreans. The rest of NA/EU just needs to catch up. And why aren't you complaining about Europeans at MLG and other tournies? Seems like they're doing a lot better than Americans, are you less interested in their matches too?
Also, I don't think ~200 Korean players would travel to the US for every MLG, but if they did, that would be AWESOME. If European soccer teams were to play games in the US, is there serious debate about whether those games would attract more viewership than MLS games? And whether that would be "good for soccer"? I'm very happy to see Bomber/MC/Losira/MMA at US/EU tournaments.
Seeing Americans play is great, but it's about quality. If most of the American scene can't beat NEX's bench players, then I say keep the online qualifiers coming until the NA/EU scene can compete.
Having the koreans compete is good anyway. It will be a good source of builds and replays to steal (for us, mortals), and a good source of training for foreigners pros. At first they'll get roflstomped, then just stomped, then they'll just lose, then perhaps they'll win xD (or perhaps not). I mean, being able to play with korean is being able to play against a level of play that doesn't exist yet for foreigners progamers.
I'm so relieved that the vast majority on TL is happy with seeing the best competition as opposed to protecting local players that are clearly not as good or motivated.
Well theres always a good mix of Region-only competitions and Multi-region competitions.
You can't just linger around easy pickings to be good, you have to face the best. and if foreigners want to be the best, they have to fight it out with the koreans.
On June 26 2011 16:12 Shiv. wrote: Glad the poll turned out the way it did. I don't know if that is common knowledge, but what I've been taught, not letting people participate in tournaments because of their origin is considered as racism.
And really: why would we as supposedly rational human beings deny the Koreans the chance to apply what they learned in endless hours of practice? I mean, it's not like they were good because it lies within their DNA (I suppose), but because they know how to make a business out of a game and how to practice to their limits. After all, they deserve to showcase that skill and earn the corresponding price money.
how can one person be so ignorant. Its not a racial issue at all. I'm fine with seleCT participating in foreign tournaments and playing in LANs and everything. But the point is he is helping the foreign scene because he lives outside of Korea and harnesses support from foreign sponsors. Furthermore, he gathers attention from foreign fans and thus foreign corporations looking for a new outlet to advertise.
If Koreans, as Catz said, choose to move outside of Korea then by all means let them participate let them flock to foreign events because they would gather foreigns fans.
Its not a matter of racial barriers but of geographic economics. Korean players living korea will never have the same foreigner fan base and thus never harness suppourt for foreign esports.
Also Koreans have small eyes and cannot there screen.
At first I didn't care about Koreans participating in NA tournaments. Now I'm not quite sure. I have nothing against Koreans, but I'm enjoying the personalities of the foreigner scene quite a bit. While I'm fine with the way things are now, I don't want the foreigner scene to be stifled in the future. On the other hand, with more and more foreigner houses being developed, I think that foreign tournaments could serve as a proving ground for non-Koreans.
Having more korean players in online foreign tournaments could also result in a higher skill level of the foreign scene as they are forced to compete with the koreans for money. This could result in the foreigners learning from the koreans and being forced to practice more to compete.
On the other hand it could make it more difficult for foreigners to win prize money and convince some of them to stop trying.
I think foreigners should see this as an opportunity to play and learn from the koreans and try to pull themselves up to their level.
I know I am going against the majority here, but I think it would be good to limit the amount of koreans in foreign tournaments. Many people here state that they just want to watch the best. I am not so sure I agree with this. I personally want to watch matches between people I know and can relate to. I have been following the sc2 foreign scene since beta. I have watched so many of the foreigns grow and develop I want to support them and cheer for them. Last night while watching the tlo open, I did not even really want to watch the games. I love starcraft, but I also love the players and watching some players who I have never heard of who are really takes some of the thrill away from watching. I hope many of you don't take this the wrong way, but I am not to thrilled by the recent surge of entire tournaments being dominated by koreigns.
Also on a side note there is a completely seperate issue-labor laws. The koreans practice so many hours a day. I think we should make it mandatory that if korean teams wish to compete that they should treat their players better. It is unfair to expect foreigners to practice like 16 hours a day. It is unhealthy. I want to watch good games, but I would rather that those players not sacrifice every other facet of their lives to play. No other sport does this. Players are not allowed to have girl friends and other simple pleasures. They must continually play. Its like slavery I feel.
I want foreigners and koreans to be on the same level. But all the koreans going to foreign tournaments will force the foreign players to step up their game, or they will rarely win as time goes on. I would love to see the foreign community step up their game!
On June 26 2011 17:19 Clank wrote: i don't get the people saying the foreigners will somehow just "get better" if the Koreans come in and dominate them. If every online tournament starts to be flooded with Koreans, it will only crush foreigners future chances, I think.
In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail.
In the biggest online tournaments with the huge prize pools, I do think anyone should be able to compete because of the reason people have been saying, better games and better players winning. However, there needs to be some other, more prominent online tournaments just for NA players or EU players. Whether these are regional qualifiers for bigger tournaments or just stand alone tournaments, the up and coming foreigners need a platform to prove themselves in front of a bigger audience.
well huk essentially was a good player before he went to korea but nowhere near the beast he is right now.
Essentially, huk went to korea and exposed himself only to gsl (i.e to only koreans in tournaments and ladder), and because of this his level has increased so much. Huk is a beast now and it's because of constant exposure to playing many koreans.
In other words, what you said is nonsense because we already have an example of what would happen. Essentially the cream of the crop of na/eu players like huk, naniwa, dimaga, stephano, idra, jinro, tyler will all become stronger because of koreans.
that's a fact.
also sponsorship = viewer numbers and if 90% of people who voted watch then the sponsors will keep flooding in
On June 26 2011 23:52 gehgrfhgrh wrote: The foreigners must learn it the hard way! If you're practicing not as much and not as efficient as the koreans, you shoudn't win anything!
one thing to remember though is the koreans have an entire pro scene set up for them. its socially acceptable to be a pro gamer far more than it is anywhere else in the world. Finally after so many years the rest of the world is catching up with progaming houses, big tournys ect.
On June 27 2011 01:06 DyEnasTy wrote: I want foreigners and koreans to be on the same level. But all the koreans going to foreign tournaments will force the foreign players to step up their game, or they will rarely win as time goes on. I would love to see the foreign community step up their game!
Yes this is ideally what should happen. The problem is that Korean teams already have the infrastructure and cultural backing that the foreigner scene so desperately needs. In order to establish this for ourselves, we need events where foreigners can do well to grow the fan base and attract sponsorship for foreign teams and players. Something the Korean teams already have.
I prefer to have both kinds - For qualifier of big tournaments, it should be open to all - For smaller tournaments, it does make sense to have regional restriction
You just can't practice like Koreans do in the West without being in the top 50 or so. Prior to that, commitments are going to stop you. University, a family, or so on. There just isn't the culture. As an example, chess prodigies are usually nurtured in school.
It is not the skill of players that needs to grow - we've watched Naniwa, Tarson and HuK take games (and series) off MC during the HSC. It is the support players get to engage in competitive Starcraft. Not just the top 50. If you are in medium to high Masters and Grand Masters and even particularly gifted lower league players that are just good at the game despite playing 3 games a week, you should be a prospect.
If anyone questions this, just look how many people churn through the footballing academies every year.
On June 26 2011 19:24 Mithriel wrote: Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice.
I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money.
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost.
All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO.
A lot of ignorant americans assume korea is like china. Sorry but korean living standards are comparable to uk living standards which are much higher than american living standards. In america, you can buy a big house for cheap and buy food cheap. Even your petrol (oil) prices are low. In america, you can live fine on a low wage but in the uk you can't...that's why we have a plentiful benefits system.
It doesn't matter to me that Kiwikaki, Huk, TT1, etc are from Canada. I only care about seeing the best players in the world. If they are all Korean that's fine with me. Koreans coming to more foreign events is only a good thing in my eyes.
If there are no Koreans in a tournament it feels like a weak tournament that's not worth watching. Western players should play better so that they can beat the Koreans, simple as. Excluding people by nationality is a bad move in general but doing it to exclude the best players from tournaments just devalues the entire scene and lowers the rep of winners of those tournaments.
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team.
I feel this is a legitmate concern as well. Any one else have a compelling argument against this?
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team.
I feel this is a legitmate concern as well. Any one else have a compelling argument against this?
Koreans don´t join to teams for free, all of those perks come after they practice and practice and prove themeselves as worthy talent. Its not as if its easy for the Koreans to get on a proteam, and hell many of the current teams didn´t have any kind of salary until recently. Its not all sunshine and rainbows for them, they give up a lot of stuff just for the chance to be there.
As for other income, I do know some Koreans do stream, but i don´t know about coaching or casting gigs, but as I said its a grueling process for them to get those perks that give them the edge.And its not like it was different in BW the ones who wanted to go pro practiced a lot just for the chance to one day be able to get their license.
Also its a stupid argument because we have seen more and more pro houses pop out and more full time SC2 players so its not like they can´t focus on practicing as much as the Koreans.
On June 27 2011 01:29 Evangelist wrote: You just can't practice like Koreans do in the West without being in the top 50 or so. Prior to that, commitments are going to stop you. University, a family, or so on. There just isn't the culture. As an example, chess prodigies are usually nurtured in school.
It is not the skill of players that needs to grow - we've watched Naniwa, Tarson and HuK take games (and series) off MC during the HSC. It is the support players get to engage in competitive Starcraft. Not just the top 50. If you are in medium to high Masters and Grand Masters and even particularly gifted lower league players that are just good at the game despite playing 3 games a week, you should be a prospect.
If anyone questions this, just look how many people churn through the footballing academies every year.
Same thing happens in Korea, as i said in my above post, the top is the one getting most of the benefits, maybe they are more easily scouted but IIRC the GOMTV guy(Dr Chae?) talked about how if th Western scene wanted to be more sustainable they needed to give new talent a chance, instead of making all their tourneys invite only.
Like others have said, the best player should win, and everyone should be able to participate. I think it's more exciting for fans to see Koreans in foreign tournaments. IMO it helps the SC2 scene.
People still have the conception (rightfully so) that Koreans are way better than foreigners, and it's totally awesome to see a foreigner beat someone like Nestea or Boxer like in TSL3...
I like seeing Korean progamers in all the tournaments they can join. Not only because I'm Korean myself, but because I like to see "foreigners" against the Korean allstars, MC vs IdrA? That's always an exciting series to watch.
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.-
also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer...
The alternative explanation, of course, is that you think Koreans are magically endowed with cash. But that's just silly. And you aren't a silly person
so "Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner" either imply that i think they should be restricted or that korean are magically endowed with cash?
i can undestand you have a hard time with my poor english. but you'd better not talk about logic if not.
I didn't realize that you'd forgotten your own rhetorical question. Also, in English, there's a big difference between "restricted" and "banned"
I don't know. Maybe it's the English that leads me to believe you're flipflopping like a dying carp on a beach somewhere. I understand French to some degree, if that's easier for you.
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
we're not discussing that they should be banned cuz of being korean (at least i hope).
i agree that the best player should win but to be concerned with the growth of foreigner esports, if we consider that korean will always be better than foreigner because they are playing much more, then we will never see anything else than korean win any tournies. and is that good for said growth of esports?
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.-
also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer...
The alternative explanation, of course, is that you think Koreans are magically endowed with cash. But that's just silly. And you aren't a silly person
so "Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner" either imply that i think they should be restricted or that korean are magically endowed with cash?
i can undestand you have a hard time with my poor english. but you'd better not talk about logic if not.
I didn't realize that you'd forgotten your own rhetorical question. Also, in English, there's a big difference between "restricted" and "banned"
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
we're not discussing that they should be banned cuz of being korean (at least i hope).
i agree that the best player should win but to be concerned with the growth of foreigner esports, if we consider that korean will always be better than foreigner because they are playing much more, then we will never see anything else than korean win any tournies. and is that good for said growth of esports?
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.-
also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer...
The alternative explanation, of course, is that you think Koreans are magically endowed with cash. But that's just silly. And you aren't a silly person
so "Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner" either imply that i think they should be restricted or that korean are magically endowed with cash?
i can undestand you have a hard time with my poor english. but you'd better not talk about logic if not.
I didn't realize that you'd forgotten your own rhetorical question. Also, in English, there's a big difference between "restricted" and "banned"
On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote: it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner.
we're not discussing that they should be banned cuz of being korean (at least i hope).
i agree that the best player should win but to be concerned with the growth of foreigner esports, if we consider that korean will always be better than foreigner because they are playing much more, then we will never see anything else than korean win any tournies. and is that good for said growth of esports?
i think the top na eu players are planning to go to korea anyway. I.e those who are worth anything at all because they want to be real progamers.
Naniwa said eu players suck and he wants to go to korea to play vs the best. That is the mentality you need as a non korean progamer, and gl to all those who want to take the jump. Also, if a second rate player such as destiny (i watch his stream and he is good but not in the top top league yet) can pull in 4k viewers and earn a living off streaming, then the cream of the crop top players can also do the same if they stream.
Sorry no excuses here. If you want something badly then you put your 'all' into it. You don't put 50% and expect results.
Also don't progamers have parents? why can't they live with them?
Perahps the prizes should be more spread out, up to 10 positions, depending on the size of player pool, so professional players can have a more steady income, and make a living out of it, without having to rely on a one time podium to support themselves for a long time.
^ Programers living with their parents is a joke i'm sorry. If esports is to grow, so needs the stability of income of a programer. We can't have 20 + year old programers living of their parents' jobs.
at the end of the day i wanne see the best compete for the purse. I could care less where they were born or brought up just that they are the most skilled at their craft.
IMO, seeing koreans make wonderful matches in big events like MLG, Dreamhack, is nice. But seeing them own a TL Open which is supposed to give a chance to newcomers is definitely not a good idea...
Edit: Apolo, check my last blog entry to take a look at people's thoughts on this.
On June 27 2011 04:00 Apolo wrote: Perahps the prizes should be more spread out, up to 10 positions, depending on the size of player pool, so professional players can have a more steady income, and make a living out of it, without having to rely on a one time podium to support themselves for a long time.
^ Programers living with their parents is a joke i'm sorry. If esports is to grow, so needs the stability of income of a programer. We can't have 20 + year old programers living of their parents' jobs.
the income will always be a joke. it's progaming after all. it's not supposed to be a career position, it's supposed to be a life-long passion.
even in korea, only about 15-20 players make a decent amount of money while there are hundreds slaving away for 8 hours a day with no reward.
if anything, the americans and europeans have it off easy. they can just devote 1/10 of the effort the koreans do to become a top player and they can exploit that to make some good money off streaming and tutoring.
i think the disappointing thing is that the top foreigners do have more options like sponsorships, team housings, the option of going to korea if they wanted. but they just don't want to put in the time. 10-12 hours of practice is definitely overkill, but you gotta do more than 3, you know.
Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team.
I feel this is a legitmate concern as well. Any one else have a compelling argument against this?
This is not just a problem of the players. Korea has great personalities who took on a debt to form and fund an sc2 team, enanbling players in their team to focus only on playing while they pay the bills. This is pretty unheard of outside the Korean scene.
But now that players and teams start to band together, we might see some better results in near future. Fnatic/Root has a team house, EG has a team house and TLO just formed one recently with other players. I think I saw a video where Socke was shown in a team house as well, not sure about that, though.
On June 26 2011 07:15 Itsmedudeman wrote: dey took our jerbs!!
Hahaha awesome reply. ^^
Yeah I just wish foreigners would get their shit together and start practising hardcore in hardcore practice houses like Koreans did. I guess that's sort of what's going on atm but Koreans are still ahead. Just not by far.
It's a bit weird that players from different teams are practising with each other though. Ah well things will get better.
I think we should separate competitions into tiers, so we can facilitate the growth of new pro-gamers by having them compete in lower tier non-Korean tournaments first without having to battle the Koreans. For top tier competitions, where most pros have already established their names (such as MLG, DreamHack), inviting Korean is a must to make the tournament more competitive and motivate the top pro to get better.
Latency between players is something that will always haunt these global online tourneys. And despite bringing in some of the most talented players in the world, the talent does not shine as brightly when in-game actions are delayed. This is in my opinion the main argument why organizers may want to consider barring koreans from tournaments. The counter argument is that by barring some of the best players in the world the tournament is in effect not as prestigious. It would be like having the olympics without americans.
On June 26 2011 07:12 Wesso wrote: The only thing I'm afraid of is that foreigners will refuse to practice as much as the koreans (which IMO is totally understandable) so the SC2 scene will stop growing because nobody can beat the koreans. I don't mind them coming, but I hope the foreigners react to it by training harder.
Nah, look at Naniwa and HuK. Both are practice monsters afaik. Especially HuK. I do believe it's gonna be necessary for foreigners to invest alot and actually go to Korea though.
On June 27 2011 04:16 Veldril wrote: I think we should separate competitions into tiers, so we can facilitate the growth of new pro-gamers by having them compete in lower tier non-Korean tournaments first without having to battle the Koreans. For top tier competitions, where most pros have already established their names (such as MLG, DreamHack), inviting Korean is a must to make the tournament more competitive and motivate the top pro to get better.
There are so many small online tournaments that are running(in the EU for instance) on a weekly basis. If you want to make a name for yourself they are a pretty good way to get into the pro scene,and i don't see many Koreans participating in these as much.Koreans get more invitationals now days,that's true,but separating the competition in tiers would be just bad because it would widen the gap and wouldn't server any purpose. Koreans flooding the foreign E-sport scene is most probably the best thing that can happen for Europeans and Americans because they will be forced to work and practice harder.
All this means is that people outside of Korea really ought to start adapting team house style practicing if they're going to be serious. At this point there really aren't many excuses....It's a proven fact that it's simply the training methods that produce the results, not the genetic superiority of the Koreans.
I expect some pretty big things to come from the EG team house, and team REIGN has a good amount of potential too. We just need to wait it out a few months to start really seeing the effects.
As well as hope that more teams outside of Korea start taking this team house practice more seriously.
I remember back in the Beta people were saying that practicing in the Korean BW style was not the proper way to train for SCII, since it was much less mechanical based. (at that time) We've started to see that it was not true, and just as in BW, the best way to get better is to just play the shit out of the game.
I just hope most of the foreigner players realize that playing a bit everyday just will not put results out there anymore.
On June 26 2011 07:13 iYiYi wrote: NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at qualifying!
You sir clearly know what you are talking about. Please, tell us more.
I do like koreans in tournaments if they have to go through the same qualifiers as the rest of players. I dislike what MLG did for example. Well....it would be quite bad if all tournaments did the same thing, 1 was ok.
On June 26 2011 07:12 Wesso wrote: The only thing I'm afraid of is that foreigners will refuse to practice as much as the koreans (which IMO is totally understandable) so the SC2 scene will stop growing because nobody can beat the koreans. I don't mind them coming, but I hope the foreigners react to it by training harder.
Nah, look at Naniwa and HuK. Both are practice monsters afaik. Especially HuK. I do believe it's gonna be necessary for foreigners to invest alot and actually go to Korea though.
"you from usa." "yeah." "and you from eg, I've seen you with eg shirt yesterday." "yeah." "so you idra." "no, I'm machine!" "yes, practice machine."
On June 26 2011 07:13 iYiYi wrote: NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at qualifying!
You sir clearly know what you are talking about. Please, tell us more.
I do like koreans in tournaments if they have to go through the same qualifiers as the rest of players. I dislike what MLG did for example. Well....it would be quite bad if all tournaments did the same thing, 1 was ok.
Why would you want them to go through the qualifiers lol, July already crushed everyone in there.Iin that case MC, Losira, and MMA would've just gone through the open bracket and knocked out any up-and-comers who were hoping to get a shot in the big stage, which would be much more unfair for them.
On June 26 2011 07:13 iYiYi wrote: NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at qualifying!
You sir clearly know what you are talking about. Please, tell us more.
I do like koreans in tournaments if they have to go through the same qualifiers as the rest of players. I dislike what MLG did for example. Well....it would be quite bad if all tournaments did the same thing, 1 was ok.
Why would you want them to go through the qualifiers lol, July already crushed everyone in there.Iin that case MC, Losira, and MMA would've just gone through the open bracket and knocked out any up-and-comers who were hoping to get a shot in the big stage, which would be much more unfair for them.
How many games did July win within what range of time? Forgot the exact numbers, but I remember it was absurd, like a win under 10 minutes on average.
I still am not convinced having more Koreans is a good thing. First it would only be good if more Koreans actually raised the skill of foreigner. In BW this did not happen, it was simply not fair to have foreigner who where just trying to do the best they could to face the super soldiers of korea. Now in sc2 it is not quite the same situation. There is a lot more involvement in the scene and pro houses are starting to form. Hopefully this will begin to allow foreigners to start catching up. However, for right now if koreans just come and dominate everything completely and thoroughly it will actually hurt the game. The average person who watches sc2 and knows nothing of team liquid will be put off by the lack of personal connection with the player. You cannot deny that the feeling of a personal connection is a big draw. I am simply concerned that the loss of such a connection will hurt viewership and ultimently esports. Another aspect again is the treatment of korean players. It is unfair to expect foreigners who want to practice starcraft as their job, but still want other aspects to their lives-social for instance. I mean it is simply not right the kind of treatment koreans do to themselves. I think no one should be subject to such a lifestyle.
In fact, I think having Koreans come here is better than foreigners going over there. Because a Korean playing on EU or NA will play hundreds of players, showing them new builds, a higher level of skill. All his opponents will step up their game and gain valuable experience. While having one foreigner moving into a Korean teamhouse will benefit only that player; not any other foreigners.
On June 27 2011 05:22 cfoy3 wrote: I still am not convinced having more Koreans is a good thing. First it would only be good if more Koreans actually raised the skill of foreigner. In BW this did not happen, it was simply not fair to have foreigner who where just trying to do the best they could to face the super soldiers of korea. Now in sc2 it is not quite the same situation. There is a lot more involvement in the scene and pro houses are starting to form. Hopefully this will begin to allow foreigners to start catching up. However, for right now if koreans just come and dominate everything completely and thoroughly it will actually hurt the game. The average person who watches sc2 and knows nothing of team liquid will be put off by the lack of personal connection with the player. You cannot deny that the feeling of a personal connection is a big draw. I am simply concerned that the loss of such a connection will hurt viewership and ultimently esports. Another aspect again is the treatment of korean players. It is unfair to expect foreigners who want to practice starcraft as their job, but still want other aspects to their lives-social for instance. I mean it is simply not right the kind of treatment koreans do to themselves. I think no one should be subject to such a lifestyle.
who are you to say that "no one should be subject to such a lifestyle" ?? lol.. they are giving it their all if a foreigner doesnt practice as much because they want to balance other aspects of their life, that's fine but don't expect to win against someone who put in more time / effort. same thing applies to pretty much everything in life
On June 27 2011 05:22 cfoy3 wrote: I still am not convinced having more Koreans is a good thing. First it would only be good if more Koreans actually raised the skill of foreigner. In BW this did not happen, it was simply not fair to have foreigner who where just trying to do the best they could to face the super soldiers of korea. Now in sc2 it is not quite the same situation. There is a lot more involvement in the scene and pro houses are starting to form. Hopefully this will begin to allow foreigners to start catching up. However, for right now if koreans just come and dominate everything completely and thoroughly it will actually hurt the game. The average person who watches sc2 and knows nothing of team liquid will be put off by the lack of personal connection with the player. You cannot deny that the feeling of a personal connection is a big draw. I am simply concerned that the loss of such a connection will hurt viewership and ultimently esports. Another aspect again is the treatment of korean players. It is unfair to expect foreigners who want to practice starcraft as their job, but still want other aspects to their lives-social for instance. I mean it is simply not right the kind of treatment koreans do to themselves. I think no one should be subject to such a lifestyle.
playing against koreans on a regular basis raises your skill.
On June 26 2011 07:13 iYiYi wrote: NA and EU games are so boring to watch. They just mass units when any Korean timing would stomp them. The more Koreans the better, give them all a shot at qualifying!
You sir clearly know what you are talking about. Please, tell us more.
I do like koreans in tournaments if they have to go through the same qualifiers as the rest of players. I dislike what MLG did for example. Well....it would be quite bad if all tournaments did the same thing, 1 was ok.
Actually its worse for upcoming foreigners if koreans needed to qualify as well. Most of the times this means that a spot from the open tournament/qualifier rounds will go to a korean rather then an upcoming foreigner. It gives them less chance to show their abilities.
I personally prefer open tournaments mainly because I feel it keeps players honest and diligent. This applies to both Koreans and Foreigners. "May the best man (or woman) win." is what I say...
I kinda agree with Catz. Koreans right now are the best, ONLY due to their developed pro scene. If we, foreigners, wants to be at their level, we must develop some kind of e-sports scene, but that is imposible if koreans keep taking the tourneys money to their home. Just my two cents.
Being korean should not matter. Now if you have a tournament which have a word "open"it mean it should be open to anyone. However, what concerns me is that sometime, a profesional tournament should be seperate with non profesional tourny (e.g. golf)
On June 27 2011 10:47 Belha wrote: I kinda agree with Catz. Koreans right now are the best, ONLY due to their developed pro scene. If we, foreigners, wants to be at their level, we must develop some kind of e-sports scene, but that is imposible if koreans keep taking the tourneys money to their home. Just my two cents.
I never understood this argument tbh. If anything the koreans flying all over the world is making esport more popular cause its shows how serious it is taken on another place. And are you honestly saying that the money is better spend when a foreigner takes it rather then a korean? Do they donate a part to the scene somehow i am missing?
Should the Koreans go and play in the top tier tournaments? Of course they should, but I feel that there should be limits on their participation in the smaller, online tournaments.
Seems reasonable, the foreigner scene can have the bar raised in the big events, and in the lesser ones they can be region-specific. It's got nothing to do with racism
Not going to be much fun for any up and coming player if MC and July are playing in the small prize online tournaments now is it? Maybe that's unlikely, but if the top, top Koreans start mopping up every single tournament going many aspiring pros are going to just earn their living elsewhere.
Somebody in another similar thread made a nice analogy with college sports. Players get time to develop their skillset in a lesser environment and when they are ready and good enough they can play in the NBA/NFL or whatever. If there wasn't this buffer and you were playing against Kobe Bryant every week it would be disheartening
it is good :D i wish that the connection between korea/na was better so that i could practice with them O_O although it does give us a nice advantage in the tournaments lol
Koreans playing in these tournaments is great, there's no way for most people to practice with them otherwise. I played zenexwon in the tlo, and while I lost it was really fun, and there was no lag whatsoever.
I'm totally cool with Koreans in NASL, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. (anything with a big prize pool). I really hope there are smaller online Cups for NA/EU players though... I don't like this "restriction" but I feel it's the only way to support aspiring progamers in these regions. Otherwise a lot of people here have to get "real" 40-hour jobs which really prevents them from practicing enough to make SC2 into a living, while Koreans have no issues with that.
I still am not convinced having more Koreans is a good thing. First it would only be good if more Koreans actually raised the skill of foreigner. In BW this did not happen, it was simply not fair to have foreigner who where just trying to do the best they could to face the super soldiers of korea. Now in sc2 it is not quite the same situation. There is a lot more involvement in the scene and pro houses are starting to form. Hopefully this will begin to allow foreigners to start catching up. However, for right now if koreans just come and dominate everything completely and thoroughly it will actually hurt the game. The average person who watches sc2 and knows nothing of team liquid will be put off by the lack of personal connection with the player. You cannot deny that the feeling of a personal connection is a big draw. I am simply concerned that the loss of such a connection will hurt viewership and ultimently esports. Another aspect again is the treatment of korean players. It is unfair to expect foreigners who want to practice starcraft as their job, but still want other aspects to their lives-social for instance. I mean it is simply not right the kind of treatment koreans do to themselves. I think no one should be subject to such a lifestyle.
who are you to say that "no one should be subject to such a lifestyle" ?? lol.. they are giving it their all if a foreigner doesnt practice as much because they want to balance other aspects of their life, that's fine but don't expect to win against someone who put in more time / effort. same thing applies to pretty much everything in life
I am one to say no one deserves that lifestyle because it isn't a life at all. No other sport makes you make such deep sacrifices. It goes beyond simply just letting the best win, because that kind of thinking will ultimently hurt the players. I love starcraft, but not enough to see the players I cherish hurt like that.
I still am not convinced having more Koreans is a good thing. First it would only be good if more Koreans actually raised the skill of foreigner. In BW this did not happen, it was simply not fair to have foreigner who where just trying to do the best they could to face the super soldiers of korea. Now in sc2 it is not quite the same situation. There is a lot more involvement in the scene and pro houses are starting to form. Hopefully this will begin to allow foreigners to start catching up. However, for right now if koreans just come and dominate everything completely and thoroughly it will actually hurt the game. The average person who watches sc2 and knows nothing of team liquid will be put off by the lack of personal connection with the player. You cannot deny that the feeling of a personal connection is a big draw. I am simply concerned that the loss of such a connection will hurt viewership and ultimently esports. Another aspect again is the treatment of korean players. It is unfair to expect foreigners who want to practice starcraft as their job, but still want other aspects to their lives-social for instance. I mean it is simply not right the kind of treatment koreans do to themselves. I think no one should be subject to such a lifestyle.
who are you to say that "no one should be subject to such a lifestyle" ?? lol.. they are giving it their all if a foreigner doesnt practice as much because they want to balance other aspects of their life, that's fine but don't expect to win against someone who put in more time / effort. same thing applies to pretty much everything in life
I am one to say no one deserves that lifestyle because it isn't a life at all. No other sport makes you make such deep sacrifices. It goes beyond simply just letting the best win, because that kind of thinking will ultimently hurt the players. I love starcraft, but not enough to see the players I cherish hurt like that.
This lifestyle is their choice, if flash, or jaedong or some progamer didn't want to make sacrifices, they wouldn't be pros. And sports players do amazing sacrifices they literally destroy their bodies to compete at the highest level. That's why some players can only play till they are 30-40, their body can literally not take the abuse.
sacrifices for competition are necessary, and the Koreans have set the bar, if the Koreans were not dominating no one would care, but they are, so its up to the rest of the world to step up. What does this take? I'm not sure, but you can't call yourself true professionals when the lower level of another scene can literally walk in and crush the best players of your scene.
I don't think that it's anyone's place to hold a tournament and not allow Koreans to enter. If it were invite only, that would be one way... But you can't be like "open tournament" and not expect players to enter. I, for one, refuse to support a tournament that I know discriminates against Koreans for being good. We're essentially referring to the foreign SC2 scene as being the special Olympics.
If Koreans take over in the west as some are predicting (lets say 75% of NASL is Korean) will the tournament organizers still be able to get sponsorship in their areas? Take NASL for instance, after season 3 they will potentially be looking for sponsors. Who is going to sponsor a league where the majority of the talent does not reside in a country that they do major business in? My guess is not many. Even if the company does have a major market in Korea why wouldn't they just sponsor GSL?
While it's way too early to tell if foreigners will be able to close the gap, if they don't and it continues to widen it may not be up to the viewers to decide. If the corporate sponsors all start pulling out because it's getting them nothing in the west the number of large tournaments will fall drastically. That is what is not a good thing for E-Sports in the west. Regional locking is not the ideal solution but if nothing changes from the current situation it may be necessary to have a large league/tournament in the west (from a purely financial point of view).
However, it's too early in the process to start making those decisions now. More something to think about over the next 4-6 months.
On June 28 2011 02:19 Talkerst wrote: If Koreans take over in the west as some are predicting (lets say 75% of NASL is Korean) will the tournament organizers still be able to get sponsorship in their areas?
If the NA "pros" don't want the NA SC2 scene to die due to Korean takeover then they need to get their acts together. There is no magical gene that makes the Koreans better it is simply work ethic and practice. Want to play SC2 professionally? Start acting like professionals.
Just because they are better doesn't mean we should exclude them.
They are also playing through some major lag at some points, and if they are good enough to do that they deserve to play in every tournament they can enter.
This lifestyle is their choice, if flash, or jaedong or some progamer didn't want to make sacrifices, they wouldn't be pros. And sports players do amazing sacrifices they literally destroy their bodies to compete at the highest level. That's why some players can only play till they are 30-40, their body can literally not take the abuse.
sacrifices for competition are necessary, and the Koreans have set the bar, if the Koreans were not dominating no one would care, but they are, so its up to the rest of the world to step up. What does this take? I'm not sure, but you can't call yourself true professionals when the lower level of another scene can literally walk in and crush the best players of your scene.
Should foreigners sacrifice more, become more dedicated-probabley. However, I am also sure that the korean scene needs to treat their players better. I can only imagine the media frenzy here in the West that would result if the treatment of koreans became more apparent. They take kids, get them to drop out of school just to play. Yes people who want to be pro should have sacrifices, but where is the line? When do we say that we can not allow a pro to do something simply for our entertainment? In sports they ban steroids because of its adverse health effects. Should sacrifices be made to become a pro? absolutely! but when does someone say no, where not gonna let you throw your life unnecessarily? We can have a pro scene, that doesn't break our morals.I think right now we should wait. Wait and see how our houses develop while simultanously pressuring the korean pro scene to change you expand the rights of its players.
Yes, everyone crying for team houses! in the west hopefully doesn't expect the Korean model to be emulated here
I'd say the living conditions in western team houses should be held to a higher standard than the Korean ones. TLO's place in Stockholm or FXO's place in Malaysia both seem much more comfortable than the Korean houses. Although I've heard that a lot of progress has been made for SC2 compared to the BW houses' military/sweatshop atmosphere, which is reassuring.
This discussion actually reminds me of the various reports about the Chinese preparing for the Beijing Olympics.
EPT
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