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On June 26 2011 08:24 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:21 vrok wrote:On June 26 2011 08:16 Sideburn wrote:On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote:
If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments. While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support. "X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!" I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much. On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective. Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless... The point is that the term ESPORTS was used though. It was invoked like a magic word and is still symptomatic of the trend I'm talking about. And even if we replace the term ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level' that doesn't solve the problem. Is that what everyone means when they invoke ESPORTS? I don't think so. I'm not going to question whether or not you have anything useful to add, because I don't think you understand the conversation being had, so it's a little unfair to you.
An off-topic rant about the definition and common usage of a term is not a conversation. If that is all you want to discuss then you should post a thread about it, and I'm not being sarcastic or condescending.
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I love it. It's way better than if they didn't. It has so many advantages:
- Wake-up call for Westerners, who'll be forced to step up their game while repeatedly measuring themselves against Korean players
- Higher level of play to watch for spectators
- Possibility of "upset"-feelings every time a Westerner defeats a (known) Korean
- Better preparation for Westerners, in the sense that they get used to competing with Koreans, even if they didn't actually physically go to Korea
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On June 26 2011 08:28 Philo wrote:
Obviously I want to see the best players play. But Its pretty alarmist to use TLOpen as a stat while its not being used as a qual for anything and most of the foreigners are at Homestory. Also most of the good foreigners are also already in the NASL so Its not that all the Koreans are just owning white dudes. Its that the mediocre Koreans who would get owned by the best white dudes are eeking in while everyones passed out on Take's floor.
Not really true. Hwangsin won it last week with quite a few higher rated foreigners playing.
And TSL_Heart just knocked Thorzain out of the NASL Open.
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On June 26 2011 08:31 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:24 Sideburn wrote:On June 26 2011 08:21 vrok wrote:On June 26 2011 08:16 Sideburn wrote:On June 26 2011 07:25 vrok wrote:
If you voted no you should delete your TL account right now and GTFO. It's that simple. There's no reason not to allow them unless you hate ESPORTS, high level Starcraft, and global communities (the essence of TL). Fuck, Koreans even have huge disadvantages when participating in foreigner online tournaments. While I voted yes, I wanted to single this post out as part of a huge trend that is extremely disturbing to me. I'll call it "Appeal to ESPORTS". The term E-sports is tossed around on these forums, and by casters and players alike a frightening amount. It's always used inconsistently, ambiguously, and usually to prove a point or try to garner support. "X is the best player because what he does is good for ESPORTS!!!" "We can't use words like _____, because they are bad for ESPORTS!" "Guys, don't hate on my favorite player. ESPORTS!" "I'm running a small ESPORTS tournament, please watch us ESPORTS so we can get more support for ESPORTS even though its poorly run and has no good players ESPORTS!!!" I feel that overusage of this word is bad for ESPORTS!! (See how clever I am?) But seriously, I do believe that the overusage of the word is bad because it takes away from whatever meaning it might have otherwise had. At this point my eyes seriously gloss over whenever I read E-sports, just because it's so meaningless at this point. It's just pandering. It's tantamount to the "Why do you hate America/Freedom?" argument. I think that there is a true e-sports scene, which is not necessarily synonymous with SC2. But it's going to be difficult for it to gain any legitimacy the way people invoke ESPORTS like it's some magic word that makes their argument right. So please guys, unless you hate ESPORTS, please stop using the word so much. On topic: I love Koreans. Probably 9 out of my 10 favorite players are korean. If foreign tournaments didn't allow koreans I wouldn't watch them, because it would essentially be a bunch of no names playing, from my perspective. Do you have anything useful to add other than 'blablabla I don't like this word because I have no idea what it means'? Switch out the word ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level'. Oh look, now your entire rant is useless... The point is that the term ESPORTS was used though. It was invoked like a magic word and is still symptomatic of the trend I'm talking about. And even if we replace the term ESPORTS with 'professional gaming competitions at the highest level' that doesn't solve the problem. Is that what everyone means when they invoke ESPORTS? I don't think so. I'm not going to question whether or not you have anything useful to add, because I don't think you understand the conversation being had, so it's a little unfair to you. An off-topic rant about the definition and common usage of a term is not a conversation. If that is all you want to discuss then you should post a thread about it, and I'm not being sarcastic or condescending.
I'll definitely concede that point and even apologize for going off topic.
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I love it and shows who the real pros in the scene are.
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It's a problem, because low tier Koreans trash Foreigners. I'd love to say No Koreans shouldn't be allowed to participate because they'll clean the floor with us, but I'll say Yes they should because it'll force foreigners to step it up to beat even bad koreans (by their standards)
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As some foreigners recently have shown, Koreans can be beaten.
With the right amount and form of practice foreigners and Koreans alike can compete with each other.
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Also a reason for Foreigners to step it up and practice their asses off in practice houses if they hope to continue having a chance to stand up to the koreans.
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One thing to add - this is actually likely a good way to help foreigners improve directly, rather than just as a motivating force. When foreigners and Koreans don't play with each other much, they develop separate metagame evolutions. And since the Koreans practice more, their ideas of what sorts of builds are good and how you should respond in certain situations develops faster. Even the best players do most of their improvement by learning from others - their personal innovation is an important but small part of that. Any chance to play games against good Koreans is a chance to see the weaknesses in the popular foreigner builds and so forth, and in some ways keeps them from falling too far behind.
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On June 26 2011 08:32 Grubby wrote:
I love it. It's way better than if they didn't. It has so many advantages:
- Wake-up call for Westerners, who'll be forced to step up their game while repeatedly measuring themselves against Korean players
- Higher level of play to watch for spectators
- Possibility of "upset"-feelings every time a Westerner defeats a (known) Korean
- Better preparation for Westerners, in the sense that they get used to competing with Koreans, even if they didn't actually physically go to Korea
Aren't you guys supposed to be out partying right now? :D
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On June 26 2011 08:42 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:33 Kraznaya wrote:On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." I know that IPL have interest in expanding, but right now it's very exclusive to people living in EU/NA/LA. Thanks for this clarification, definitely boycotting the IPL from now on. Didn't know about this. I will also not watch IPL because of this, unless they have a really good reason for doing it.
Me too. How is EU close enough but Korea isn't.....
I will NEVER watch any league that bars players from competing based on nationality.
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Koreans are now going to win every single tournament that isn't a local LAN tourney, and even some of those (homestory) are going to be taken over.
Good bye to foreigners winning anything!
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On June 26 2011 08:45 unSpeake wrote:
Koreans are now going to win every single tournament that isn't a local LAN tourney, and even some of those (homestory) are going to be taken over.
Good bye to foreigners winning anything!
lol..... only if they decide they don't want to improve. Plus MC is in the losers bracket right now? It's not like he has gone through the tournament flawlessly.
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Koreans should absolutely be allowed to join any Tournament that are not exclusive to EU or NA residents, respectively.
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On June 26 2011 07:26 Q(-_-Q wrote:
Why do people care if Koreans come and take the money in our tournaments? The best player should win the cash.
this ffs.
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From viewer point of view (from me when I watch tours) having koreans in foreign LAN's and online tournaments are amazing, I love watching korean vs foreigner especially better known koreans vs pretty much any foreigner is fun for me to watch - much more fun than regular NA vs NA or EU vs EU matchups so having koreans play everywhere is really good.
Now lets look other point of view from foreign progamers (and again from my point of view as one of them), I understand having koreans in big tournaments like TSL, dreamhack and such. But having koreans in EVERY LAN is a little bit too much, especially inviting same ones over and over (MC). So now I was reading this thread and I opened teamliquid open stream and I saw 6 koreans in top 8. What do you think how foreign progamers will feel about this "invasion" of koreans? Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with.
I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above.
For example, if you would meet koreans in lets say 3 tournaments a year, you would want to improve and show better game next time and would be motivated to win vs korean and what you have now is that every korean enters foreigner tournament and wins it, foreigners will do worse and worse every next tournament (again im saying in general not specific players) because if you see player X foreigner gets destroyed by korean what makes you think you would be able to win? Foreigners will eventually stop bothering with LAN's once 10+ koreans enter every LAN and just quit playing online tournaments since number of koreans there is unlimited.
Again this is in general of foreigner scene, im not talking about specific players like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain for example, who plan to go in korea and compete with them. I have very strong attitude about wanting to compete with koreans in tournaments and win them, I myself want to do it just like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain already did it, but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
And last thing, think about upcoming masters players who have strong desire to become progamers, its hard enough having to fight vs EU/NA progamer scene already for them and once they become as good as them they start facing koreans, what then?
This of course wont happen tomorrow, but it started with LAN's - now online tournaments and koreans joining foreigner teams, how long will foreigner progamers will have the attitude to become as good as koreans? 
Like I said, for viewers - its great, for actual foreigner players..not so much.
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My only real concern is that we still have some relatively big tournaments that are NA/EU only. I really hope people understand that if we want players from all around the world to keep playing, they have to be able to get good results at tournaments to not only get the prize money but also to more easily secure sponsorship.
Edit:
Beastyqt's response:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2011 08:48 Beastyqt wrote:From viewer point of view (from me when I watch tours) having koreans in foreign LAN's and online tournaments are amazing, I love watching korean vs foreigner especially better known koreans vs pretty much any foreigner is fun for me to watch - much more fun than regular NA vs NA or EU vs EU matchups so having koreans play everywhere is really good. Now lets look other point of view from foreign progamers (and again from my point of view as one of them), I understand having koreans in big tournaments like TSL, dreamhack and such. But having koreans in EVERY LAN is a little bit too much, especially inviting same ones over and over (MC). So now I was reading this thread and I opened teamliquid open stream and I saw 6 koreans in top 8. What do you think how foreign progamers will feel about this "invasion" of koreans? Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with. I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above. For example, if you would meet koreans in lets say 3 tournaments a year, you would want to improve and show better game next time and would be motivated to win vs korean and what you have now is that every korean enters foreigner tournament and wins it, foreigners will do worse and worse every next tournament (again im saying in general not specific players) because if you see player X foreigner gets destroyed by korean what makes you think you would be able to win? Foreigners will eventually stop bothering with LAN's once 10+ koreans enter every LAN and just quit playing online tournaments since number of koreans there is unlimited. Again this is in general of foreigner scene, im not talking about specific players like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain for example, who plan to go in korea and compete with them. I have very strong attitude about wanting to compete with koreans in tournaments and win them, I myself want to do it just like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain already did it, but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it". And last thing, think about upcoming masters players who have strong desire to become progamers, its hard enough having to fight vs EU/NA progamer scene already for them and once they become as good as them they start facing koreans, what then? This of course wont happen tomorrow, but it started with LAN's - now online tournaments and koreans joining foreigner teams, how long will foreigner progamers will have the attitude to become as good as koreans? Like I said, for viewers - its great, for actual foreigner players..not so much.
Ya I think this is very well said. It is great to see Koreans in some tournaments. I personally loved events like MLG and Dreamhack, but I really hope there continues to be large tournaments to help out the NA and EU scene. I'm probably just repeating myself by now. :-/
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but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
Good, I don't want to waste my time watching those defeatist minded players anyways.
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we just want to see the best vs the best. doesnt matter if they are alien or American. Then no matter what it will bring in viewers.
but I do think that there has to be a korean vs foreigner element to bring an extra oomph to the excitement level. Korea vs America, Europe vs America, type of thing where fans will root for national pride!
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EPT
