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On June 26 2011 09:01 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:54 Jakkerr wrote:It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins. My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing  yes, they 4 gate. why do anything else when ur playing scrubs? I played hwangsin today, why would he do anything time consuming when he can 4gate me? when it gets to quarterfinals, when they reach bo3, they do other stuff. simple as that.
Yep. look at July's average game time coming through the MLG open bracket. :D
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On June 26 2011 09:01 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:54 Jakkerr wrote:It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins. My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing yes, they 4 gate. why do anything else when ur playing scrubs? I played hwangsin today, why would he do anything time consuming when he can 4gate me? when it gets to quarterfinals, when they reach bo3, they do other stuff. simple as that.
Reminds me of July baneling busting his way through the MLG Open Brackets. He must have been thinking get the hell out of the way scrubs or something. Or maybe he was just hungry 
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On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Koreans are still relatable.
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On June 26 2011 09:02 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:01 ribboo wrote:On June 26 2011 08:54 Jakkerr wrote:It's pretty simple, koreans will win every online tourney they enter because they have a few builds they pratice about 100.000 times a day that counter most builds ur opponent can do. If u have such an arsenal of builds it's only normal you can make it this far in tourneys, I wanna make a bet that almost none of the korean games before the quarterfinals were longer then 15 mins. My point is, I'd rather watch the best Non-koreans competing since they are fun too watch and I sort of know who they are. I don't get that same feeling when watching Koreans at all, sure they play good but I couldn't give a **** who wins or loses when I watch them playing yes, they 4 gate. why do anything else when ur playing scrubs? I played hwangsin today, why would he do anything time consuming when he can 4gate me? when it gets to quarterfinals, when they reach bo3, they do other stuff. simple as that. Yep. look at July's average game time coming through the MLG open bracket. :D
july been doing short all in games since brood war vs anybody korean or not
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On June 26 2011 09:03 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Koreans are still relatable.
I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL.
My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2."
Edit: Just to clarify once more, I am not saying I don't like watching Koreans or they are some strange creatures who I can't relate to or enjoy... but my other point was simply that to help esports grow and be accepted around the world, we have to help build it from the bottom. Having many tournaments that foreigners can play in and do well in will help them get sponsorship and prize money, so that esports can be more widely accepted so that it is more like Korea.
From that point it will be much easier to get a team house. Hell, just think of how much more sc2 is like SCBW Korea than foreign SCBW was. With sc2's popularity and acceptance, we are starting to see team houses, which is good. The players have been able to compete in large tournaments that attract many viewers, which helps get them more money... not give more money to Korea.
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We need esports to become global.
And I rather watch better players as well.
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I don't really enjoy watching Korea vs Korea finals and stuff. I just dont. Maybe its because I don't realy relate to them in the same way or because the money in the west goes to south korea. Meh.
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On June 26 2011 09:04 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:03 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Koreans are still relatable. I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL. My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2."
I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support.
Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game.
Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra?
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Makes me pretty happy to know that 91% of the voters on this poll are of sound mind. Higher level of competition is always welcome in my mind.
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Koreans are still relatable.
For sure. A lot of these guys have connected with the foreigner scene and people care about them and their results. It just takes time for these connections to form, they don't happen overnight.
A crowd of 1000+ wouldn't passionately chant MMA, MMA, MMA! if they didn't relate to the player himself.
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On June 26 2011 09:07 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:04 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 09:03 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Koreans are still relatable. I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL. My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2." I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support. Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game. Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra?
What the fuck dude... are you trolling me? I clearly said twice that I can...
Can someone else help me here? Am I missing something? I thought I clearly said that I enjoy watching several koreans, and that my computer comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to another comment. I never called Koreans computers... wtf?
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On June 26 2011 09:07 Wihl wrote:
I don't really enjoy watching Korea vs Korea finals and stuff. I just dont. Maybe its because I don't realy relate to them in the same way or because the money in the west goes to south korea. Meh.
Frickin e-immigrants and their frickin work ethic, how dare they take money from our slackers
This is going to be the next big argument in politics in twenty years, e-immigration.
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Let them come and dominate.
Make it a wake up call to all foreigner players that if they want to get their damn prize money they have to work for it. Practice is a priority to get as good as the Koreans.
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On June 26 2011 09:09 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:07 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 26 2011 09:04 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 09:03 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Koreans are still relatable. I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL. My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2." I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support. Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game. Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra? What the fuck dude... are you trolling me? I clearly said twice that I can... Can someone else help me here? Am I missing something? I thought I clearly said that I enjoy watching several koreans, and that my computer comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to another comment. I never called Koreans computers... wtf?
I wasn't meaning to criticise you, but the viewpoint you described in your post.
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The only way us foreigners ever is gonna reach the Korean skillcap is if we play with them, and I do believe that everyone wants this as much as I do. Yes!
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Having many tournaments that foreigners can play in and do well in will help them get sponsorship and prize money, so that esports can be more widely accepted so that it is more like Korea.
Nothing wrong with this. Hockey has NHL, AHL, College League, AAA, AA, A etc. etc.
This is totally fine, and it is a great system for developing good talent. It's this kind of "You're too good for the NHL" logic that has seemed to have pervaded some people's minds here. There ARE lower level leagues for these players to compete in, but they are not the GSL, NASL, MLG etc. (the rough equivalent of the NHL -> (the top hockey league)
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I know it's hard for the rest of the regions to see that most of the players that owns at this tournaments are Koreans but IMO is the only way to really learn also.
Right now, every progamer SHOULD have a GSL and GSTL pro account to be able to watch the VODS and analize the Korean builds and their playstyle.
So yes, tournaments must be global once they become top level.
And No, if tournaments are still growing up on level.
Let's take for example the Latinamerican Region, wich have the lowest level of all regions.
To begin, the tournaments must be between latinamericans, so they fight each other and after a few months there is clearly a top 20 players that are always beating themselves up.
After that, open the tournament for other regions like US & EU, where the ammount of top players is incredibly huge.
And after Latinamerican players are able to show, that they can beat up top players from those regions, you bring in the Korean players.
That's my view for a progression in skill level for a region that is way behind.
You can make the analogy with a lenguage class room. You don't bring people that speak spanish to a beginner level class of spanish.
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On June 26 2011 07:33 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." I know that IPL have interest in expanding, but right now it's very exclusive to people living in EU/NA/LA. Thanks for this clarification, definitely boycotting the IPL from now on.
Lol so what about GSL....same thing dude. you have to live in Korea and even with the new "exchange" program you get 1 month free...after that you have to pay everything yourself if you stay there to compete
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On June 26 2011 09:10 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:09 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 09:07 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 26 2011 09:04 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 09:03 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Koreans are still relatable. I completely agree, in fact if you read the second sentence of my quote, you will see that I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well (Ace for example) in the NASL. My computer reference is in direct response to people saying "I don't care about who's playing or where they are from, all I care about is seeing the best game of starcraft 2." I just really dislike the idea that Koreans are robots who play amazing Starcraft but that nobody can relate to or support. Take my favourite players...Nestea. I've watched basically all his games, his up, his downs I know his match ups, styles he's good against, styles he's not. I can watch his translated interviews for his thoughts on the game. Does hearing him speak in broken English really turn someone who's cold and unrelatable like Nestea into White Ra? What the fuck dude... are you trolling me? I clearly said twice that I can... Can someone else help me here? Am I missing something? I thought I clearly said that I enjoy watching several koreans, and that my computer comment was a DIRECT RESPONSE to another comment. I never called Koreans computers... wtf? I wasn't meaning to criticise you, but the viewpoint you described in your post.
Right, but you are criticizing me for saying Koreans are like computers, or just as relatable as computers, but the problem is I never said that. In fact I said the opposite a few times and went out of my way to explain the computer comment.
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I would be far more concerned if the Koreans were completely ignoring the foreign scene. As it is, the scene's are mixing in a way that soon the foreign scene will be entirely too important to Korea to disappear. already we have had several Koreans (Rain and Oz) join foreign teams. It is likely that more will follow. As the Koreans join the scene they will bring their ideas, their builds, and their practise regiments with them. For the Foreign Pro gamers who stick it out, they will ultimately gain from Koreans interaction.
Honestly, I'd love for a couple foreign teams to hire Korean coaches as well as players. There is probably more than enough money in the scene for someone like FXO or Fnatic or EG to manage it.
That said, I think there should still be smaller regional tournaments. There is really no reason to have Koreans in the Zotac cups, people don't watch that for the games, they watch it for the players (more people play than watch anyway). Keep them out of the small money cups (Let them have their own, like the iCCup weekly), but I'm all for letting them play in MLG and Dreamhack.
Edit: I think that it is also important for the movement to be two way. We need the HuK's and the Jinro's and the FXO's to bring foreign styles to Korea as well. Keep up our image as potentially worthy competitors, not just walk-overs for money.
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EPT
