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On June 26 2011 09:32 Ravencruiser wrote:
Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
This is a racist comment tbh. You are saying that koreans are just better, not because of their train or anything, but just because they are korean. And if the foreigners will be able to compete, then the game has a lower skill-ceiling? This is just wrong.
As long as foreigners work as hard as them, there will never be a skill-difference like in BW. There will obviously be more talent there, because of their culture, but the top-foreigner will always be able to compete with them, as long as they put in as much effort it as they are.
There were no foreign progamers in BW for many years, this is the sole reason why there was/is such a big skill gap. In warcraft 3 there were progamers in korea AND in the rest of the world and players like Grubby and ToD could always compete with the best koreans. In the end, China even surpassed Korea as the #1-country.
I know there is even more korean talent in sc2 compared to wc3, still there are many foreign players who have the talent to compete against the best koreans and this number will only grow with sc2 getting really big right now.
If we establish similar training-conditions, there is no reason why koreans should be the better players.
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hope this gives more incentive for foreigners to practice harder
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"Letting the foreigner scene catch up" is no excuse. Korea only had a 15 hour head start, until SC2 was released to NA. They have had the same time to train, while korea has most of the talent pool locked up in BW.
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On June 26 2011 09:53 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:32 Ravencruiser wrote:
Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
This is a racist comment tbh. You are saying that koreans are just better, not because of their train or anything, but just because they are korean. And if the foreigners will be able to compete, then the game has a lower skill-ceiling? This is just wrong. As long as foreigners work as hard as them, there will never be a skill-difference like in BW. There will obviously be more talent there, because of their culture, but the top-foreigner will always be able to compete with them, as long as they put in as much effort it as they are. There were no foreign progamers in BW for many years, this is the sole reason why there was/is such a big skill gap. In warcraft 3 there were progamers in korea AND in the rest of the world and players like Grubby and ToD could always compete with the best koreans. In the end, China even surpassed Korea as the #1-country. I know there is even more korean talent in sc2 compared to wc3, still there are many foreign players who have the talent to compete against the best koreans and this number will only grow with sc2 getting really big right now. If we establish similar training-conditions, there is no reason why koreans should be the better players.
As soon as I saw your first sentence I knew the rest will be uninformed and idiotic. Koreans do, on average, train harder than foreigners.
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Did you even read my comment or just the first sentence? I never doubted that koreans train harder on average. All I'm saying is that there is no reason why foreigners should be worse if they train just as hard and HuK is proving this right now.
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It is all going to come up to how foreign teams organize their teams with the practice in korea and foreigners not being lazy and train like the same as koreans do.Seriously excuses are dumb,players getting discouraged by this is pitiful.AND whoever think that koreans have a better established income,or playing in a better condition is absurd.I wonder what the pros think about when they get paid to coach 70$/h when they get demolished by b-team korean,western scene is so flawed
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I don't see the point. Seeing a favorite EU or NA player in GSL is quite fun to watch. Online tournaments are plagued by lag FOR BOTH PLAYERS when Koreans play. I guess some people can't afford a GSL ticket? All tournaments are going to start looking awfully similar because they all want to be the WCG.
On June 26 2011 08:00 Bobster wrote:
It's absolutely awesome.
I love seeing Starcraft II to become a global sport. All the more incentive for NA/EU players to ramp up their game.
Huk and Naniwa had some meaningful wins against Koreans lately, I love seeing the best from every region compete with each other.
Koreans participating now makes something global now? I think the fear is that continued Korean dominance will quickly turn this into a Korean sport like BW.
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Absolutely they should be participating, if every wants to keep saying the skill cap is becoming non-existant then we have to play with them to prove it. As long as the conditions are equal in terms of opportunity on both sides this should be a non issue.
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Hopefully having koreans in the tournament will inspire the foreigner scene to step their game up. We've seen Huk win Dreamhack, so its clearly about the practice regimen and team house dynamics. If koreans start to win a lot of our tournaments, maybe we can get similar setups in EU/NA
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I'm not the biggest fan of seeing them in online tournaments for the sole reason of they're playing with a latency disadvantage. I want to see players playing at their full potential under the best conditions. They seem to be doing alright regardless though so whatever.
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On June 26 2011 09:56 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:53 Awesomeness wrote:On June 26 2011 09:32 Ravencruiser wrote:
Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
This is a racist comment tbh. You are saying that koreans are just better, not because of their train or anything, but just because they are korean. And if the foreigners will be able to compete, then the game has a lower skill-ceiling? This is just wrong. As long as foreigners work as hard as them, there will never be a skill-difference like in BW. There will obviously be more talent there, because of their culture, but the top-foreigner will always be able to compete with them, as long as they put in as much effort it as they are. There were no foreign progamers in BW for many years, this is the sole reason why there was/is such a big skill gap. In warcraft 3 there were progamers in korea AND in the rest of the world and players like Grubby and ToD could always compete with the best koreans. In the end, China even surpassed Korea as the #1-country. I know there is even more korean talent in sc2 compared to wc3, still there are many foreign players who have the talent to compete against the best koreans and this number will only grow with sc2 getting really big right now. If we establish similar training-conditions, there is no reason why koreans should be the better players. As soon as I saw your first sentence I knew the rest will be uninformed and idiotic. Koreans do, on average, train harder than foreigners.
The problem is that these "scenarios" don't take into account the possibility [and fact] that foreigners can up their game to move towards Korea's level of training. It's undeniable that within the first year of SC2, we reasonably argue that we have seen far more "korean" training in the foreign scene than the sum of BW, with the oGs-Liquid partnership, the establishment of foreign progamer houses, the foreign teams participating in the GSTL, and the MLG-GSL partnership.
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i find your choice of words in the title of this thread disgusting.
its not an invasion its participation.
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This will benefit foreigners more than koreans. They will be able to play against high level players (koreans) and they will improve.
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On June 26 2011 09:45 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:34 Hrrrrm wrote:On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS. And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play. We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue. I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks! I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other. First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss.
I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team.
The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
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Guys it is so simple if you want an online league without Korean players host in on the EU server they can not play on it. NA tournaments can be worldwide EU tournaments can be western only simple. (unless more people like rain move to the west) So there is still lots of tournaments and money for foreign players to win there is no problem.
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I read most of the comments and i love reading about how this will kill e-sports in the west. The fact is 90% of people wanna watch koreans play. There are a minority of players who are taking nationality too seriously. Did people stop watching counterstrike because sweden kept on winning? Do people stop watching barcalona games because barcalona is such a beastly team? No...people will keep watching because the korean style of play is the best at the moment and because some want to see foreigners fight vs koreans and to see how well they do but 90% of people will cheer for whoever wins, korean or not. look at dreamhack and mlg when mma and mc won...people were shouting mma mma mma! Those are the real sc2 fans we cannot afford to lose.
The poll says that 90% of the voters want unrestricted access for all players and i agree with this.
You shouldn't exclude anybody based on their race otherwise the world will end up like malaysia which has a racist policy that excludes non-malays in many areas of work.
90% of the voters are voting for what is right and the sc2 community has overwhelmingly spoken that all they want are top games vs the top players. For those people who say i only wanna watch people i know and only wanna watch eu people play...sorry but get real !
If more koreans play in big tournaments, the better eu/na players will become. It's only logical that overexposure to the korean style of play will produce better equipped na/eu players who can deal with the korean style by countering with their own style or using the korean style. 90% of the players who voted want to see the best games. Nobody wants to see regional events. Sorry but real fans want to see the best play and that's that.
SPOILER ALERT!!!!
Naniwa got rolled by mc recently but in the homestory cup he got revenge. I would like to think it's because naniwa saw those replays and analysed mc...i hope so 
at the end of the day....i like all the sc2 players...i am a fan of the teamliquid players, white ra, mma nestea mc...i like all types of players from all regions.
Let's keep it that way
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On June 26 2011 10:23 TyrantPotato wrote:
i find your choice of words in the title of this thread disgusting.
its not an invasion its participation.
Don't get hung up on it, the OP is just trying to get people's attention. The word 'Invasion' makes Koreans sound more badass anyway
I'm glad that NA and EU tournaments are attract THE BEST competition. I wouldn't subscribe to NASL otherwise.
At the same time, I hope the NASL looks at ways to 'bridge the gap' and help foster the North American scene. I how no idea how this would happen or what this will look like, but I can imagine the disparity in skill between NA/EU and Korean discouraging, versus motivating, the foreign scene.
Things like spreading the prize money more in big tournaments or having more qualifiers might help. Basically, there needs to be more opportunities to win small rewards to help tide the NA scene over as they try to close the skill gap.
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Canadians and EU players invaded American NHL, yet people still watch NHL. Not to mention that the Boston team that won was composted of 17 Canadians and only 3 Americans.
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On June 26 2011 10:29 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:45 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 09:34 Hrrrrm wrote:On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS. And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play. We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue. I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks! I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other. First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question. Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss. I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team. The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
Read the first paragraph of my initial response to you. It shows that you are just making assumptions that I don't think Koreans have personality, or that I don't enjoy watching them. You are trying to make a connection between my response to you saying 'all you care about is seeing the best games' and whether or not I enjoy watching Koreans. There isn't a connection there. I simply had direct response to you only caring about the highest quality of play which didn't even have to do with nationality whatsoever.
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I think if the level of competition begins to rise globally then the foreigners will start getting better to keep up. Playing against a field of poor competition will breed complacency, the better the field is the better the players will become. More Koreans in global competitions, boo to isolationism.
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EPT
