On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote: By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited".
Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN:
"No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play."
Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional.
It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
Thats quite ignorant of you to say since you don't know all the facts. You are right that there aren't any factors limiting them from actually playing in the tournament, but it's possible there's a lot of legal issues in some of those regions since a lot of money is involved. Anyway my point is we don't really know all the details, and you are making assumptions.
I guess it can't be that bad if NASL can do it, but hopefully things get worked out in the future. I don't think koreans should be excluded at all.
As much as I love the foreigner scenes and can relate to foreigners (and root for them) i would feel wrong excluding Koreans because they are better than us.
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss.
I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team.
The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
What? That is not the case at all, especially with the more lax SC2 leagues, hell even in KESPA days we had a lot of guys exuding personality. I mean a lot of people say that korean players are boring but I don't think that is the case at all, and even if they had less personality that is why moments such as this were so special
Naniwa got rolled by mc recently but in the homestory cup he got revenge. I would like to think it's because naniwa saw those replays and analysed mc...i hope so
Game 1 at MLG was a build order loss for Naniwa although he could have won probably without the dancing.
Game 2 at MLG was a build order loss for Naniwa although he was real stupid not to four gate on Taldarim
Game 1 at Homestory was a build order win for Naniwa.
Game 2 at Homestory was a build order win for Naniwa but he lost through sniped obs (the was basically the first time in four games anyone did anything high level besides just blind build orders and winning or losing through them)
Game 3 at Homestory. Naniwa got fast upgrades and hit a nice timing denying the third, he deserved the win.
In conclusion PvP is a bit dumb, if both players are of comparable skill it's mostly just build orders and a lot of luck and even if players are pretty far apart you can easilly lose to someone worse than you.
On June 26 2011 10:44 Kezzer wrote: As much as I love the foreigner scenes and can relate to foreigners (and root for them) i would feel wrong excluding Koreans because they are better than us.
It would be like excluding Black people form Basketball. Well, not really. But it would be a blatant form of xenophobia.
I'm sure if Bennetton Treviso could convince Kobe Byrant, Dwayne Wade or even Rudy Gay to join their team and play in Italy, the whole league would readily accept them. The better the players, the more consistent and watchable the product is in the long run.
Another example: Although NCAA Basketball is exciting, no one gives a shit about it outside of America. The NBA attracts a global audience because it has the best players.
If koreans dominating and taking all the foreign money kills western esports, then so be it. It's natural selection and just means the west wasn't ready for an esports scene.
I'm not really interested in foreign players besides huk and jinro, so if the foreign scene dies I won't really miss it because I'll still have the gsl to watch.
Guys that voted "No," don't worry, I just checked with iNcontroL. He has assured me that he will enter every tournament with a Korean in it, to ensure that he will not let something as crazy as a Korean winning it "let it happen ever again."
On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote: Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement.
I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world.
The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer.
Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
Yes, I would. When I first started watching Korean BW I didn't bother reading interviews and just through the smiles and excitement of the players I was fascinated. You could tell they were giving it their all and they wanted to play the best for themselves, their fans, and their team. You don't need words in your language or interviews to be able to interpret human emotion after a win or a loss.
I still don't understand why you are putting constraints on the players when that clearly hasn't been the case. You might think Koreans are boring and have nothing relevant to say during interviews in KOREA but, that has been far from the case when they compete overseas. Look at MMA, someone who didn't really show that much personality in Korea, do a freaking Hadouken on stage at MLG after beating Idra. Look at MC being one of, if not the best, personalities, right now in SC2. Look at the Team League and the way they all liven up when they're fighting for their team.
The best aren't boring when given the proper avenues to display their personalities. Sadly Korea's culture tends to dampen a lot of the personalities but, I have no doubt the more Koreans venture out the more those personalities will pop up. People aren't robots just because you can't understand them.
Read the first paragraph of my initial response to you. It shows that you are just making assumptions that I don't think Koreans have personality, or that I don't enjoy watching them. You are trying to make a connection between my response to you saying 'all you care about is seeing the best games' and whether or not I enjoy watching Koreans. There isn't a connection there. I simply had direct response to you only caring about the highest quality of play which didn't even have to do with nationality whatsoever.
Look how you decided to reword your response that the human beings playing SC2 would be "plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews" which is the stereotype that has been going about Koreans. My mistake if you didn't intend that.
Point is luckily for you and me, every single player has a personality and by the sheer amount of players not everyone will be "plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews". So to answer your question as directly as possible, yes I would watch the best play with zero personality. Luckily that will never be the case.
I think that this is exactly what we should be wanting to turn SC2 into a global ESPORT. I want to see the best players in the tournaments, and eventually see the maybe more popular players learn to match their skill, not just be in separate tournaments.
I'd love to see NA players take home all the NA prize money so they can have a chance to build up the logistical aspect of being a pro-gaming society. Previously it was impossible for a group of nerds to support themselves and a pro-gaming house purely from winnings, and had to sacrifice critical practice times to do so. I love watching Koreans participate, but I would like to see NA players given the chance to put themselves in a position to succeed before they take on the rest of the world.
On June 26 2011 08:49 Chicane wrote: My only real concern is that we still have some relatively big tournaments that are NA/EU only. I really hope people understand that if we want players from all around the world to keep playing, they have to be able to get good results at tournaments to not only get the prize money but also to more easily secure sponsorship.
On June 26 2011 08:48 Beastyqt wrote: From viewer point of view (from me when I watch tours) having koreans in foreign LAN's and online tournaments are amazing, I love watching korean vs foreigner especially better known koreans vs pretty much any foreigner is fun for me to watch - much more fun than regular NA vs NA or EU vs EU matchups so having koreans play everywhere is really good.
Now lets look other point of view from foreign progamers (and again from my point of view as one of them), I understand having koreans in big tournaments like TSL, dreamhack and such. But having koreans in EVERY LAN is a little bit too much, especially inviting same ones over and over (MC). So now I was reading this thread and I opened teamliquid open stream and I saw 6 koreans in top 8. What do you think how foreign progamers will feel about this "invasion" of koreans? Who would get motivation to practise when you know that they have MORE and BETTER practise than you since they have progamer houses and good schedule for practising plus basically better opponents to practise with. I saw someone wrote "dont be coward to play koreans and go practise more", I doubt any foreigner is scared to play them, but its really discouraging to know from now on that you cant even play online tournaments without koreans in them - lets face it they are better than foreigners (in general ALL foreigners vs ALL koreans) and that will never change for reason I said above.
For example, if you would meet koreans in lets say 3 tournaments a year, you would want to improve and show better game next time and would be motivated to win vs korean and what you have now is that every korean enters foreigner tournament and wins it, foreigners will do worse and worse every next tournament (again im saying in general not specific players) because if you see player X foreigner gets destroyed by korean what makes you think you would be able to win? Foreigners will eventually stop bothering with LAN's once 10+ koreans enter every LAN and just quit playing online tournaments since number of koreans there is unlimited.
Again this is in general of foreigner scene, im not talking about specific players like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain for example, who plan to go in korea and compete with them. I have very strong attitude about wanting to compete with koreans in tournaments and win them, I myself want to do it just like HuK, Naniwa and Thorzain already did it, but not everyone thinks the same way which will make a lot of foreigners maybe even quit playing SC2 - I've heard quite a few comments already from EU progamers something like "whats the point in even going to lan's if MC or any player of his caliber are going to attend it".
And last thing, think about upcoming masters players who have strong desire to become progamers, its hard enough having to fight vs EU/NA progamer scene already for them and once they become as good as them they start facing koreans, what then? This of course wont happen tomorrow, but it started with LAN's - now online tournaments and koreans joining foreigner teams, how long will foreigner progamers will have the attitude to become as good as koreans?
Like I said, for viewers - its great, for actual foreigner players..not so much.
Ya I think this is very well said. It is great to see Koreans in some tournaments. I personally loved events like MLG and Dreamhack, but I really hope there continues to be large tournaments to help out the NA and EU scene. I'm probably just repeating myself by now. :-/
If all european and na players had such a weak mentality then they deserve to lose. But i know there are many exceptions! see below!
Look at huk. I always watched huk's stream and few months back he always made huge mistakes during tournaments (seemed like nerves) and got knocked out because he played bad. But huk has a korean mentality. He practices hard and even though he had a bad run he recovered to win dreamhack (and possibly homestory!). I believe jinro also has this mentality. He got knocked down to code a but he will go back to code s eventually. I believe the majority of true starcraft 2 fans only want to see the best sc2 players play. I also read grubby's comment (dunno if it's real grubby), but i believe players like grubby cannot feel proud if koreans are ommitted. The real progamers want to play against the best, win or lose. if you don't want to play the best, don't play esports or real sports.
Sorry but if you have a weak mentality then it's best to not even consider progaming since progaming is a hard profession to dedicate your life to but it has a lot of unique rewards.
i can't see how foreign players would be allowed to call themselves progamers if koreans weren't allowed or handicapped (such as only allowing a certain number of koreans participating) from foreign tournaments.
In theory I welcome a Korean "online invasion", but in practice Koreans occupying the top 3 or 4 spots in every tournament will destroy my interest in the SC2 progaming scene. A competition that is dominated by a single country is neither mature nor very interesting.
Am I the only one concerned with say, unknown foreign players not being able to get recognition if all the koreans take up slots in the tournaments?
I mean look at Thorzain, a complete unknown and since he won a TL open and managed to win the TSL hes been propelled to instant star status among the likes of Naniwa and HuK, I gotta say, could this have happened if all the TL opens were all filled with Koreans?
I just wish the Korean scene players would interact more with the foreign scene, not just playing in tournaments. I understand there is a language barrier but It would be nice. Im sure even those few here who have a problem with this "Korean invasion" wouldn't care if the Korean players made an effort to introduce themselves to the foreign scene.
That said that will naturally happen as we are more exposed to them in this way. I mean look at MC. He did some commentating at dreamhack. He does stuff for the fans. Right now many of the Koreans in the Teamspeak tournament may have been unknowns to many of people here however if they continue entering this will no longer be the case.
Basically what I'm trying to say is I would prefer it to not be a case of take the money and run back to Korea until the next tournament. I would like it if they interacted with the foreign community more.
However even if it ends up a case of taking the money and running back to Korea without so much as an interview It is still good that they are competing.
EPT
