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On June 26 2011 09:07 Wihl wrote:
I don't really enjoy watching Korea vs Korea finals and stuff. I just dont. Maybe its because I don't realy relate to them in the same way or because the money in the west goes to south korea. Meh.
How can you not relate with them? Because they don't speak English? If you watch the group selection or watch their celebrations you can see they have a ton of personality.
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All major events should be open to anyone, regardless of where they are from in my opinion.
I do find region-locked events to be highly enjoyable from time to time though, like for example the IEM Regional Championships, even though it is LAN. I would very much like to see some more of this online as well. As it is right now, online events generally only dictates what server it is played on, but doesn't really enforce or care about what region you are from. The only example that comes to mind for me right now that has done this, is the Viking Cup which is restricted to Nordic only iirc. There might be a ton that I have just missed though.
As a pure spectator I want to see the top dogs from across the wold duke it out, regardless of tournament.
As a player and ESPORTS-fanatic I would find it interesting to have several smaller- and "medium"-sized tournaments that are restricted to certain regions, which might in turn lead to the bigger ones. It would be cool to see the progress of say for example a Swedish player going from perhaps national -> Nordic -> EU -> Global. I dunno, just some thoughts. 
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On June 26 2011 09:13 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +Because they don't speak English? If you watch the group selection or watch their celebrations you can see they have a ton of personality. and MC doesn't just speak english... he CASTS in english.
Lol this was hilarious!!! MC is a baller.
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Starcraft 2 is global. Of course anyone should be able to participate.
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May the better player win I say. This is good as it will give experience to the NA/EU players participating in the same events, it will only do them good in the long run.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
There are a couple of different sides to this. First, do we want Koreans competing in major offline events. Fuck Yes. It raises the quality of games, and forces our players to buckle down and practice harder to earn their money. That being said, people complaining about tournaments just because they don't have Koreans in them is stupid, but more importantly hugely insulting to the players participating in them. There should still be a place for purely foreigner tournaments. While I do agree that having occasional Koreans domination events forces players to improve, having 70% of all current international prize money go to 1 country hurts the scene hugely. These tournament winning help pay for the players lives, and are important in gaining more sponsors. Having a developed group of talent come in and crushing an undeveloped group of talent proves nothing, and is damaging. Overall though, I still think there is a place for Koreans, if only to raise the standard of the game, and ensure players do not get lazy.
As for small, online tournaments, I really don't like Koreans participating. Those events are not about the money, they are about the experience. It's about an up and coming player beating some old pros, or having the classic finals between the two people who are fighting for the wins every week. Having someone there purely because they have been practicing 10 hours a day is completely uninteresting to me personally. Those small events are about storylines and atmosphere, and not about THE ABSOLUTE PINNACLE OF PLAY.
Oh, and another thing. People saying that if you have the skill you deserve to win every tournament that exist. That's bullshit. There's a reason Barcelona don't play in the Ukrainian Premier League, or Manchester United are competing for the League 1 title as well. It's senseless for someone at the top edge of the game (fighting for thousands of dollars) to be playing against a nonamer for 50$ online. It really shouldn't happen, and stops the growth of new players.
And one more thing. "I don't care who wins, I support the person that plays the best."
WHAT? Why is it that esports flies in the face of every other sport on the planet. Anywhere else, and that would be called what it is, glory hunting. I'm not saying people should be fanatically loyal to only 1 player or team, but there should be a concept of loyalty. Whether through great gameplay or having a good personality, people should appreciate and support the players. The moment someone loses should not be a reason to stop supporting them.
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I only want to see the best playing starcraft. So it doesn't bother me which country they are from. It only gives us a motivation to train harder. On top of that, it is good for 'foreigners" to face new competition as most of them aren't able to access to the KR server and are thus unfamiliar with the Korean style. So all in all, I think it's only beneficial to both spectators and players.
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"Yes, make online tournaments and qualifiers global. We want to watch the best! (NASL Style)"
Pretty much. I love most events that brings people from different countries/cultures. Doesn't really have to be E-Sports.. I just loved the WC in football, The Champions league, Ice Hockey and everything.
Funny thing is though, I'm not really a sports guy myself. I just love it when people from different countries/cultures come together and have a really good time. Peace and love folks!
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I want to see the best players. Its up to NA and EU players to suck it up and get better if they are not happy about it.
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Voted yes, keep it global!
I wonder, for those few who disagree, is it only koreans you want excluded? ^^
Kinda hard to justify australians/peruvians/what-have-you in NA/EU events if south koreans can't come.
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Alright 2 scenarios, both based on historical lessons and are the two most likely outcomes by far:
1. What happened in BW happens to a lesser extent in SC2. SC2 = lower skill ceiling = higher dependence on luck / more volatility. Koreans flood/win most of international tournaments, but foreigners can take games off Koreans and win at least a small percentage of matches with consistency.
2. Skill ceiling higher in SC2 than perceived. Koreans pull ahead, what happened in BW happens in SC2 and top foreigners become B-Teamer levels yet again.
2a. Tournaments divide between international, Korean and maybe China. Why invite Koreans to your U.S. based tournaments when you KNOW they'll just take your money?
2b. SC2 scene grows large enough that tournament organizers/viewers are just happy with watching 95% Korean tournaments. Think black people in track and field.
Realistically though, 2a and to a lesser extent, 2b will happen soon. Most likely right after both expansion packs.
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On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill.
Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS.
And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play.
We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
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On June 26 2011 09:15 MCDayC wrote:
Oh, and another thing. People saying that if you have the skill you deserve to win every tournament that exist. That's bullshit. There's a reason Barcelona don't play in the Ukrainian Premier League, or Manchester United are competing for the League 1 title as well. It's senseless for someone at the top edge of the game (fighting for thousands of dollars) to be playing against a nonamer for 50$ online. It really shouldn't happen, and stops the growth of new players.
And one more thing. "I don't care who wins, I support the person that plays the best."
WHAT? Why is it that esports flies in the face of every other sport on the planet. Anywhere else, and that would be called what it is, glory hunting. I'm not saying people should be fanatically loyal to only 1 player or team, but there should be a concept of loyalty. Whether through great gameplay or having a good personality, people should appreciate and support the players. The moment someone loses should not be a reason to stop supporting them.
Comparing Starcraft to sports is a common pitfall in these arguments. It just doesn't work that way. The same rules do not apply, and probably never will. Just look at Starcraft for what it is instead of constructing a flawed analogy with something that's actually completely unrelated.
If it was senseless for a top player to compete for $50 online against a no-namer, he just wouldn't compete. These guys are actually on really tight schedules. The fact that they actually do take time to compete in these tournaments indicates that to them it is not senseless at all. We can speculate on why that is the case, but as long as they find it worth their time to play the tournaments, you can't argue that it makes no sense.
In Starcraft, the best way for a serious player to improve is to be trashed over and over again by players better than him (slight exaggeration, but the point remains). Every ambitious player who plays in these online tournaments will appreciate the fact that they can play against higher quality opponents. Playing on or around your own level (unless you're already at the top) is completely pointless and a waste of time. That's what ladder is for.
As for the fans, most fans are actually Starcraft fans, rather than hardcore fans of teams/players (obviously not all, but most). Most fans of sc2 as an esport are also quite active players themselves, and watch the games from a player's (technical) point of view. None of this is the case in football (for the vast majority of fans).
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I love it. Best of the best, please.
Just stop with the TvT finals. Can we please restrict how many Terran players are allowed instead? 
Edit: The last time this was brought up, I mentioned how Japan has recently become a threat in Baseball. They did it by importing large amounts of MLB players from North America. People will rise to the level of their opponents.
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Western players will never become as good as the koreans if they don't have to compete in tournaments. Competition is good.
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On June 26 2011 09:34 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:58 Chicane wrote:On June 26 2011 08:53 Hrrrrm wrote:
Highlander. If SC2 ends up like BW it'll be the fault of all the NA/EU players that decided to slack at the beginning since they were getting easy money just because they were local and not necessarily because they were the best. If you want to be the best you gotta put MORE or EQUAL amounts of time that your competitors put in. If not you'll always be second fiddle and sooner or later irrelevant.
I just want to see the best SC2 possible, I don't care if my nationality is represented. It'll be a plus if it was but, not a requirement. I can't entirely agree with this. First off I too don't care about nationality, at least not much (I was cheering for quite a few Koreans to do well in the NASL over foreigners) but having more "local" tournaments can lead to sc2 being taken more seriously. That would include having more team houses, more teams, more events, more viewers, and esports being more widely accepted around the world. The other point I wanted to make was in responce to "I just want to see the best SC2 possible." Would you honestly rather watch two well programmed computers play against each other if those computers would show the best starcraft? And then those computers would keep playing each other over and over because they are the most well programmed? That's an honest question if you'd be willing to answer. Since when did watching games only become about nothing but skill. What about the story of the players, and the fan interaction. Don't get me wrong, I too appreciate good games, but I think it is a bit ridiculous to just say that all you can care about is the highest skill. Last thing I expected was my comment to be taken to Artificial Intelligence Land so let me rephrase, I just want to see the best SC2 possible played by HUMAN BEINGS. And as far as your last point about story and fan interaction. The best players HAVE their own stories and interact with fans just fine. Fruitdealer had a hell of a story when he won the first GSL and so did many other players. I don't want to be stuck with a subpar Master's NA player that speaks English. I rather have a translator for the bad ass Korean if it needs to be that way to watch him play. We shouldn't reward mediocrity and sadly that's what is occurring. I love Fnatic getting a Korean and FXO as well simply because players need to realize that if they don't improve they'll get dropped. I have a feeling a lot of players on Foreign teams have not felt the pressure to improve because they don't see many others on the NA/EU side better than them. Fnatic and FXO has given those players a swift kick in the ass by getting Koreans and I believe it will continue. I wouldn't be surprised if every Foreign team has at least ONE Korean by the end of the year and some maybe two. Hold onto your hats folks!
I'm only going to bother addressing the first part since that is what we are both discussing with each other.
First of all, you just now threw in human beings, but that's fine I can still make my point. Are you telling me that if all the people you watched play were plain and boring with nothing relevant or interesting to say during interviews, that you would still enjoy it just as much? Don't try to side step the question.
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Interested thread thanks to the OP
They have lag, they're definitely beatable now on lan that's another story = )
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stop whining about koreans taking our money/titles, if you want to be able to compete with them, train harder.
its as simple as that, we have a home field advantage (note: latency) and we are still not able to beat them in most cases simply because they have better dedication to the game and train harder. as i always said back in the broodwar days, the best way to learn in starcraft is through losing games, if we don't allow koreans to play in our tourneys the finals wont be as good.
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On June 26 2011 08:53 acker wrote:
Foreigners who practice as hard and as efficiently as most Korean progamers will be able to beat Korean progamers. There's no Starcraft gene Koreans are born with.
It's really a question of effort and money at this point, not of genetics.
I agree. Either you commit your self as a progamer and practice hard as the koreans or you don't and get left behind in skills. As for the koreans participating in foreign events, they deserve to because there isn't any rules against it and they give us the most entertaining games.
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EPT
